OOTS #1147 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

Also, calendars and holiday ornaments are on sale. See the giant banners right below these words.

[KorvinStarmast]

Thanks, Giant.
Love the Slaad/Deva bit. Chortled, I did. :smallbiggrin:

The tadpole must learn to chew its way out

Also: Thanks, Giant. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23529605&postcount=781)

[Prophet_of_Io]

Ahh Parenthood. What a joy.

Great work as always Giant! Can't wait to see Durkon back on the mortal side!

[Czhorat]

So it seems that Hilgya ressurected him. That's going to complicate things with their obvious religious differences and her stated desire to kill him.

[dmc91356]

I like the life's too short go hook up line.

[Sian]

[..]and her stated desire to kill him.

wait what?

[hroþila]

I kinda hope we'll now go back in time a bit and see the Order come to, but I guess technically speaking they might still be unconscious and this could well be just Hilgya and Belkar.

[Wraithfighter]

........anyone else now suddently 100% certain that Durkon's resurrection is going to have some weird complications? Like, it's going to be a week or two later, or the entire council was killed or Hilgya is rez'ing him away from the OOTS or something like that?

Might just be my inner Elan talking, but having not seen any of the living since Durkon was staked... well, who knows what's happened down there...

[ti'esar]

Slaad reproduction jokes never get old. :smallbiggrin:


wait what?

The, uh, big end panel? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1105.html)

[Peelee]

So it seems that Hilgya ressurected him. That's going to complicate things with their obvious religious differences and her stated desire to kill him.

Why? He's gotta be alive for her to kill, after all.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I kinda hope we'll now go back in time a bit and see the Order come to, but I guess technically speaking they might still be unconscious and this could well be just Hilgya and Belkar.

I would not be surprised if this spell is being chanted by Hilgya, with Belkar's knife to her throat. I don't think it'll be the case, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Grey Wolf

[HandofShadows]

And how fast will he need to talk to avoid being killed again by a certain cleric? :smallconfused:

[Chei]

Well, that's got to be the funniest panel in the whole comic, I reckon. And it had a good followup joke.

Can't wait to see the first moments of Durkon's new lease on life!

[Ruck]

Oh, I laughed pretty good at the end sequence there.

Also a bit relieved that resurrecting Durkon won't require too many hoops. I'm assuming some worse fate won't befall him. (I'm still hoping that my theory that Belkar talks her out of doing anything worse to Durkon is correct.)

[sillymel]

Wow, I'm early. I can't wait for us to get back to the action.

[Griffincat]

I can't wait for the montage of what's happened since Durkon's death.

Also, thanks for the calendar information - preordered!

[Flemkopf]

I'm curious what it is that breaks the minds of all the Outsiders. That, coupled with what happens to Odin, makes you really wonder about the stability of pretty much everyone who is immortal in the OOTSverse.

I'm also rather curious if there have been many mortals who have managed to weather the destruction of their world (via living in the Astral Plane or one of the outer ones), or if there's a more vital connection to their own world. Also, what happens to the souls that came from previous worlds, have their memories been erased or are they just gone/faded into their plane of alignment?

[Morquard]

Perfect timing indeed. And another tidbit of information on how the world-remaking works. Gods wipe the outsider's minds, that explains why none of them know about it (like for example the IFCC)

[Edhelras]

So cool! FINALLY the entire OOTS will be together again! I've missed that so much....

[Particle_Man]

Shout out to the Slaadi! :smallbiggrin:

Edit: come to think of it, is the spawn of a Slaad and a Deva just 100% pure Slaad, or some kind of Celestial Slaad? Could it have been 100% Deva or 100% Slaad but not 50% of each?

[Fyraltari]

Oh man, I wanted Durkon to meet Tenrin. Well, that's (after)life.
durkon saying goodbye to Minrah like tht makes me think she won't come back. :smallfrown:
The gods wipes the the Outsiders memories? Interesting, that means the Fiends really didin't know about the Snarl before Nale told Sabine.

I'm not sure I get, the joke right though. The Deva went to a Chaotic plane and had sex with one of the toad creature and somehow he got pregnant because chaos, I guess? Or is the deva a masculine-looking (for a stick-figure) she? :smallconfused:

[Ruck]

I would not be surprised if this spell is being chanted by Hilgya, with Belkar's knife to her throat. I don't think it'll be the case, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Grey Wolf

Heh, I didn't see your comment before I made mine. If Belkar got the jump on her, it's certainly possible. (Or more darkly sick and/or hilarious, if he took Kudzu hostage to make her do it.) Also possible Hilgya thinks it's the best course of action for whatever reason; her mind is a tough nut to crack.

I don't think the Resurrection is going to be purely straightforward, but I do think the obstacles will resolve themselves quickly and even humorously.

[PixelKirby]

Aah, these strips can’t come soon enough. Strips have been a tad slow recently, but with it being holiday season, it’s understandable. Keep up the good work, Giant!

[Peelee]

Oh man, I wanted Durkon to meet Tenrin. Well, that's (after)life.
durkon saying goodbye to Minrah like tht makes me think she won't come back. :smallfrown:
The gods wipes the the Outsiders memories? Interesting, that means the Fiends really didin't know about the Snarl before Nale told Sabine.

I'm not sure I get, the joke right though. The Deva went to a Cahotic plane and had sex with one of the toad creature and somehow he got pregnant because chaos, I guess? Or is the deva a masculine-looking (for a stick-figure) she? :smallconfused:

I wondered the same thing in the MITD thread. Might be just how female devas look, might be a joke about slaads being just that chaotic, might be a lot of things.

[Particle_Man]

I'm not sure I get, the joke right though. The Deva went to a Cahotic plane and had sex with one of the toad creature and somehow he got pregnant because chaos, I guess? Or is the deva a masculine-looking (for a stick-figure) she? :smallconfused:

Well Slaadi can "impregnate" (yeah, let's call it that) anyone of any gender. As for what happens next, there is a certain scene in the movie Alien that might demonstrate it (that character was male too). Which means that the Deva is tough as nails, by the way, to survive that "birth" (yeah, let's call it that).

[Fyraltari]

I wondered the same thing in the MITD thread. Might be just how female devas look, might be a joke about slaads being just that chaotic, might be a lot of things.

Slaad = Toadfolk, right?

[Ruck]

I wondered the same thing in the MITD thread. Might be just how female devas look, might be a joke about slaads being just that chaotic, might be a lot of things.

The female devas who deal with Roy (in his review (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html) and trying to warn him about Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html)) are clearly OOTS-female shaped. I think this might actually be a male deva who got implanted by a slaad tadpole. (The deva being male would also explain his confusion about whether or not he should push.)

[Chei]

So, assuming this all takes place directly after the fight, Hilgya had to have that Resurrection prepared, right? Is that Loki's influence, do we think, or was Hilgya planning to kill Durkon in such a way that only a Resurrection could bring him back if she so desired?

[Peelee]

Well Slaadi can "impregnate" (yeah, let's call it that) anyone of any gender. As for what happens next, there is a certain scene in the movie Alien that might demonstrate it (that character was male too). Which means that the Deva is tough as nails, by the way, to survive that "birth" (yeah, let's call it that).
Makes sense.

Slaad = Toadfolk, right?
I want to get off Mr. Bones' Toad's Wild Ride.

The female devas who deal with Roy (in his review (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html) and trying to warn him about Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html)) are clearly OOTS-female shaped. I think this might actually be a male deva who got implanted by a slaad tadpole. (The deva being male would also explain his confusion about whether or not he should push.)

That's how I originally read it, but I've been known to make mistakes before, so I just wanted to check. Much appreciated!

[Unoriginal]

I'm not sure I get, the joke right though. The Deva went to a Chaotic plane and had sex with one of the toad creature and somehow he got pregnant because chaos, I guess? Or is the deva a masculine-looking (for a stick-figure) she? :smallconfused:


I wondered the same thing in the MITD thread. Might be just how female devas look, might be a joke about slaads being just that chaotic, might be a lot of things.

The joke is that Slaads reproduce by implanting their eggs into other beings' flesh, regardless of the being's nature, and then the toadpool goes out chestbuster style.


Slaad = Toadfolk, right?

Toadfolk are more the Bullywugs, or the Grungs.

Slaads are toad-shaped chaos.

[thelivingmonkey]

Poor Minrah not going to get raised looks like :(

[KorvinStarmast]

Like, it's going to be a week or two later, or the entire council was killed or Hilgya is rez'ing him away from the OOTS or something like that? That might be nice, but I don't think giant paces stuff like that. The council scene needs to be played out.

I would not be surprised if this spell is being chanted by Hilgya, with Belkar's knife to her throat. With his poor will save, I think she could hold/PWN him easily. Betting the under on that.
I'm assuming some worse fate won't befall him. Married to Hilgya? That's trial enough for any dwarf. :smallyuk:


is the spawn of a Slaad and a Deva just 100% pure Slaad, or some kind of Celestial Slaad? Could it have been 100% Deva or 100% Slaad but not 50% of each? It'll be a mix of all of the letters. For example, you might call it a vealaddas or alsedavad.

[Fyraltari]

Well Slaadi can "impregnate" (yeah, let's call it that) anyone of any gender. As for what happens next, there is a certain scene in the movie Alien that might demonstrate it (that character was male too). Which means that the Deva is tough as nails, by the way, to survive that "birth" (yeah, let's call it that).

The joke is that Slaads reproduce by implanting their eggs into other beings' flesh, regardless of the being's nature, and then the toadpool goes out chestbuster style.
Okay, got it.

So, assuming this all takes place directly after the fight, Hilgya had to have that Resurrection prepared, right? Is that Loki's influence, do we think, or was Hilgya planning to kill Durkon in such a way that only a Resurrection could bring him back if she so desired?
"Im going to kill you, and then, I'll bring you back so can kill you over and over again! MOUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA"
Yes, I am aware there are several flaws int his plan; I just couldn't resist the cliché.

[Incendax]

Hilgya had the satisfaction of watching Durkon die.
Now she needs him to pay Child Support.

[Peelee]

"Im going to kill you, and then, I'll bring you back so can kill you over and over again! MOUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA"

Let's be fair here, she didn't kill him the first time. So she has to bring him back to kill him.

[Fyraltari]

Let's be fair here, she didn't kill him the first time. So she has to bring him back to kill him.

So, you're saying she prepared Resurection just in case somebody ninja'd her kill? That's my kind of vilain.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Well, another strip or two I guess until we find out just how much time has passed on the material plane while Thor, Durkon and Minrah have been flying around the multiverse.

It's entirely possible, I think, that we might never see directly what happened to the ex-Exarch and his sidekicks, since Lurkon was the big major arc villain for this book. It was pretty much a given that the Order were making a beeline for the council of elders as soon as they recuperated somewhat from the last battle. From a narrative standpoint, the information that Thor has been imparting is of much more relevance to the overarching storyline of the strip than cleaning up a few rogue vampires, as much as we all might feel cheated out of another badass battle sequence.

I was really hoping Minrah would get resurrected as well, but maybe that could be later on in the story if needed, or otherwise off-screen or not at all. Or she might just stay in Valhalla because her arc is no longer considered relevant to the plot anymore.

I wonder if the Durkon/Hilgya issues still outstanding are reconcilable enough not to end up degenerating into outright combat. Durkon's probably willing to work his best with his newly-restored lease on life, but Hilgya seems so deep-seatedly bitter (and an unrepentant jerk to her family) that there may be no way for the two to feasibly coexist.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Oh boy. That title had me worried, like he was going to be put back into the vampires head, hence the title "headed back".

Unless hilgya is for some reason resurrecting a vampire, but I doubt it now. I am a bit bummed that we never did get that good vampire durkon, but maybe we will see one later on down the road, albeit not durkon but another vampire who turned to the side of good.

is there a spell you can use to ressurect a vampire? Not that I think she's doing that, but now I'm curious.

[Czhorat]

Why? He's gotta be alive for her to kill, after all.

That's a good point.

Hilgya's vendetta was with Durkon, not the vampire. So after he's back, she's still just as mad at him. Which, when last we saw, was killing mad.

[KorvinStarmast]

The reaction of Kudzu might be key to Hilgya's reaction ...

[Peelee]

The reaction of Kudzu might be key to Hilgya's reaction ...

Reactions are 5e, not 3.x. Damn, I'm on a roll right now!

[TheNecrocomicon]

The reaction of Kudzu might be key to Hilgya's reaction ...

Sure ... but she generally hasn't shown a propensity for caring what anyone else thinks, including members of her own family.

[KorvinStarmast]

Reactions are 5e, not 3.x. Damn, I'm on a roll right now! I see what you did there ... :smallcool:

[Doug Lampert]

Shout out to the Slaadi! :smallbiggrin:

Edit: come to think of it, is the spawn of a Slaad and a Deva just 100% pure Slaad, or some kind of Celestial Slaad? Could it have been 100% Deva or 100% Slaad but not 50% of each?

Slaad with the Half-Celestial template would seem a reasonable solution. That's 100% Slaad, and 50% Celestial.

[Quartz]

Let's be fair here, she didn't kill him the first time. So she has to bring him back to kill him.

She did take part in the battle in which he died, so she did kill him. Wasn't that half the point of the "You're me." panel?

[Peelee]

She did take part in the battle in which he died, so she did kill him. Wasn't that half the point of the "You're me." panel?

Nah. Even with the "yer me" bit, Belkar killed him, not Hilgya.

[Rrmcklin]

She did take part in the battle in which he died, so she did kill him. Wasn't that half the point of the "You're me." panel?

That wasn't the battle he died in, he was already dead.

Pedantry aside, she doesn't seem to know how vampires actually work, and so she could want to do land the final blow.

Obviously that won't actually happen but it's a thought.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Is... Durkon not grossed out at all by the concept of a Slaad baby chewing its way out, whether or not the pregnant Deva could survive the birth? Or at all disgusted by how evil an act like that could look to a lawful stupid like him?

[littlebum2002]

Let's be fair here, she didn't kill him the first time. So she has to bring him back to kill him.

That would be pretty great. The first panel is Durkon waking up to Hilgya saying "this is totally worth the 10,000GP", stabbing him, and then Durkon having to wait for his next Resurrection. Which would probably be able to be a Raise Dead.

[Fyraltari]

Is... Durkon not grossed out at all by the concept of a Slaad baby chewing its way out, whether or not the pregnant Deva could survive the birth?
I think Durkon has been through enough by now that "A baby chewed his way out of my non-existent womb" registers as a "Mondays, amiright?" kind of deal.

Or at all disgusted by how evil an act like that could look to a lawful stupid like him?
I'm not sure I understand you? The Deva doesn't seem particularly bothered by it so why take offense?

[Yuki Akuma]

Slaad with the Half-Celestial template would seem a reasonable solution. That's 100% Slaad, and 50% Celestial.

The offspring of a Slaad is always a normal Slaad, no matter what host they implant their eggs into. Because, genetically speaking, they're a single-parent species that just uses another being as a host.

As for why that doesn't cause a genetic bottleneck... well, they're Outsiders, and they're also the Exemplar race of Limbo - they are literally Chaos Incarnate.

[Peelee]

That would be pretty great. The first panel is Durkon waking up to Hilgya saying "this is totally worth the 10,000GP", stabbing him, and then Durkon having to wait for his next Resurrection.

She's certainly got the cash (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1114.html), I'd say.

[drazen]

Of course Hilgya has Reaurrection prepared: she carries a child into combat and doesn't want it consigned to Hel (or at least doesn't want to risk it on a technical definition of, "in battle.")

[Procyonpi]

MitD is the offspring of the the Deva and the Slaad.

[RMS Oceanic]

Kinda sad to be leaving Minrah behind, but she earned it.

I suspect the Order will be able to keep Hilgya in check once the resurrection happens. Not like her motive is a secret or anything.

[Gift Jeraff]

Outsiders getting their memories wiped with each new world has interesting implications with the Blood War. Is it something the gods cooked up for this world? Is it an inevitable conflict no matter what? Do the gods deliberately restart it each time?

[Nightcanon]

Eeeww!

Thanks Giant (I guess)

*reaches for brain soap*

[zimmerwald1915]

Outsiders getting their memories wiped with each new world has interesting implications with the Blood War.
More than that - it means the IFCC has a legitimate grievance.

[faustin]

Outsiders getting their memories wiped with each new world has interesting implications with the Blood War. Is it something the gods cooked up for this world? Is it an inevitable conflict no matter what? Do the gods deliberately restart it each time?



Are the gods powerful enough to mindwipe ALL Outsiders each time without any hitch?
What if the IFCC was the result of one of their "blunders"? Maybe Sabine´s intel regarding the Gates allowed them to piece things together.

[2D8HP]

The important lesson for me is "Don't be drunk in Limbo"

Ewww...

[Gluteus_Maximus]

I think Durkon has been through enough by now that "A baby chewed his way out of my non-existent womb" registers as a "Mondays, amiright?" kind of deal.

I'm not sure I understand you? The Deva doesn't seem particularly bothered by it so why take offense?

Haha, yeah.

I guess. But then this Deva's got to be not lawful in some way, right? I mean, they were on a drunk weekend to limbo. How does that happen when you're lawful? Even if you obey whatever drunk plane shifting laws the outsiders have then getting drunk and then heading straight to limbo, a place of chaos, is a strange occurrence for a being of law. Or is alignment not altered if stuff you did while drunk would change your alignment if you did it sober?

Anyway, how did the Deva even get drunk? Aren't angels, like, immune to disease and have pretty good fortitude saves?

EDIT: On an unrelated note, this means Celia has been around for quite some time and Roy has been dating a centuries-old sylph. That, or there are an utterly enormous number of sylphs/other air elementals that marry and have kids because their memories keep getting wiped. Do they even die of old age!?

[Peelee]

Haha, yeah.

I guess. But then this Deva's got to be not lawful in some way, right? I mean, they were on a drunk weekend to limbo. How does that happen when you're lawful?

As evidenced by the entire Lawful race of dwarves, who never touch the stuff.

[GooeyChewie]

The thoughts that went through my head during this strip:

:vaarsuvius: Obviously the cleric in question is Hilgya. The chances of it being somebody else are 1 in a million.
:elan: Wait, exactly 1 in a million? But that means...
:redcloak: Mwahahahaha!!!!

[blunk]

It'll be a mix of all of the letters. For example, you might call it a vealaddas or alsedavad.Lazy money is on "Deva Salad".

[JoseB]

I guess they were able to put together all the dust into which Durkula’s body was disintegrated after Belkar destroyed it, for Hilgya’s “Resurrection” to work.

I can imagine the rest of the order carefully sweeping up the dust to make sure they don’t miss any... :)P

[Gluteus_Maximus]

As evidenced by the entire Lawful race of dwarves, who never touch the stuff.

Yes, and I am sure every one of those lawful dwarves would be on weekends to Limbo all the time if they did touch it. The point of the post was not that I was confused a lawful creature got drunk, it was that they went to a plane of chaos while being so.

[danielxcutter]

*wheezes at the last two panels*

I'm betting that Hilgya was planning to rez Durkon after she killed him. Er... 5 quatloos?

[137beth]

Huh, well, that answers my confusion about why the IFCC didn't know about the snarl.

[zimmerwald1915]

I guess they were able to put together all the dust
Any of the dust. Resurrection only requires a speck.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

I guess they were able to put together all the dust into which Durkula’s body was disintegrated after Belkar destroyed it, for Hilgya’s “Resurrection” to work.

I can imagine the rest of the order carefully sweeping up the dust to make sure they don’t miss any... :)P

Resurrection works with just a pinch. Even if there existed a cubic mile of dead durkula dust they wouldn't need all of it to Rez durkon :p

[Jaxzan Proditor]

First, it’s definitely interesting that they have to wipe the Outsider’s minds. Not that I think it’ll come up again, but it’s still a cool tidbit. Also, I’m sad but not surprised to see Minrah go. Finally, I’m definitely eagerly awaiting seeing what happens with Durkon once he’s brought back.

[Peelee]

Yes, and I am sure every one of those lawful dwarves would be on weekends to Limbo all the time if they did touch it. The point of the post was not that I was confused a lawful creature got drunk, it was that they went to a plane of chaos while being so.

Fair point, though "while drunk" seems like the most likely time a lawful creature would go to a plane of chaos, IMO.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Shout out to the Slaadi! :smallbiggrin:

Edit: come to think of it, is the spawn of a Slaad and a Deva just 100% pure Slaad, or some kind of Celestial Slaad? Could it have been 100% Deva or 100% Slaad but not 50% of each?

I think you miss the point of exemplars of elemental chaos if you expect them to be predictable.


I guess they were able to put together all the dust into which Durkula’s body was disintegrated after Belkar destroyed it, for Hilgya’s “Resurrection” to work.

I can imagine the rest of the order carefully sweeping up the dust to make sure they don’t miss any... :)P

Resurrection works with just a drop of blood, so a pinch of dust is all that would be needed. More would be desirable (for psychological reasons, at least), but not needed.


Yes, and I am sure every one of those lawful dwarves would be on weekends to Limbo all the time if they did touch it. The point of the post was not that I was confused a lawful creature got drunk, it was that they went to a plane of chaos while being so.

Obviously, Limbo is the planar equivalent of Las Vegas. So what happens in Limbo...

[Jay R]

Shout out to the Slaadi! :smallbiggrin:

Edit: come to think of it, is the spawn of a Slaad and a Deva just 100% pure Slaad, or some kind of Celestial Slaad? Could it have been 100% Deva or 100% Slaad but not 50% of each?

I'm not even sure I can process the words "Celestial Slaad".

In any event, the host body isn't a genetic contributor; it's just a nursery for the egg and food for the young slaad.


Is... Durkon not grossed out at all by the concept of a Slaad baby chewing its way out, whether or not the pregnant Deva could survive the birth? Or at all disgusted by how evil an act like that could look to a lawful stupid like him?

Durkon didn't see the cutaway panel; he just heard the conversation. There are details that the deva is not sharing with Durkon, even if the Giant is sharing them with us.

[Sniccups]

*wheezes at the last two panels*

I'm betting that Hilgya was planning to rez Durkon after she killed him. Er... 5 quatloos?

Quatloo?

(I've heard it a couple of times, but I have no idea what it means. Is it a currency?)

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah, from a sci-fi show about aliens who gamble. Actually, it's probably more famous because of the internet by now.

[dmc91356]

Hey, hey, hey now, that's original Star Trek, not just "a sci-fi show"

[Kish]

Yes, and I am sure every one of those lawful dwarves would be on weekends to Limbo all the time if they did touch it. The point of the post was not that I was confused a lawful creature got drunk, it was that they went to a plane of chaos while being so.
I see no indication that the deva is Lawful.

(If you're thinking "Roy's was," deva are Any Good. If you're thinking Durkon should be at the Lawful Good afterlife...well, we've seen it, and it wasn't called Valhalla.)

[ManuelSacha]

Ugh.
A deva with a slaad?
Just... how does that work, exactly?
Also, are angels genderless in this cosmology?
Or is that a male deva?
Sooooo many questions.

[ellindsey]

Any of the dust. Resurrection only requires a speck.

The tricky part is making sure it's his dust, and not dust from any of the other vampires killed in the battle.

[LadyEowyn]

I see no indication that the deva is Lawful.

(If you're thinking "Roy's was," deva are Any Good. If you're thinking Durkon should be at the Lawful Good afterlife...well, we've seen it, and it wasn't called Valhalla.)

That's a good point. On the comic with the big diagram of the Outer Planes, the plane that most people concluded is Valhalla ("Fight the good fight") is next to Limbo.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Well, that is the placement in D&D's Great Wheel cosmology.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, from a sci-fi show about aliens who gamble. Actually, it's probably more famous because of the internet by now.

Oh so that's where it's from? TIL...

[Vanidar]

........anyone else now suddently 100% certain that Durkon's resurrection is going to have some weird complications? Like, it's going to be a week or two later, or the entire council was killed or Hilgya is rez'ing him away from the OOTS or something like that?

Might just be my inner Elan talking, but having not seen any of the living since Durkon was staked... well, who knows what's happened down there...

Oh, I'm almost certain you're right except that he'll: get rezzed back at the Godsmoot by the Halfling priest of Loki who is serving there.

The only way it doesn't go sideways is if the plot demands it, which is a pretty viable reason in this universe.

[Giggling Ghast]

I'm curious what it is that breaks the minds of all the Outsiders. That, coupled with what happens to Odin, makes you really wonder about the stability of pretty much everyone who is immortal in the OOTSverse.

If I had to guess, it’s the knowledge that the gods are not infallible and they are locked in an eternal cycle.

That makes me wonder, though, if they have to wipe the memories of ALL Outsiders. Would that include the fiendish races?

[danielxcutter]

If I had to guess, it’s knowledge that the gods are not infallible.

No, I don't think that's it, since not all the outsiders directly serve gods(example: the IFCC)...

Maybe it's not because they don't have as strong mental fortitude as gods do. I'd imagine going through billions of worlds would do quite a number on their heads...

[Anarion]

This is the comic that gets the live action movie an R-rating, obviously. Glad to see Durkon going back though.

[Doug Lampert]

The offspring of a Slaad is always a normal Slaad, no matter what host they implant their eggs into. Because, genetically speaking, they're a single-parent species that just uses another being as a host.

And yet, they meet the requirements to have the half-celestial template applied. By the rules, it is perfectly possible to have a Slaad with the half-celestial template.


I'm not even sure I can process the words "Celestial Slaad".

In any event, the host body isn't a genetic contributor; it's just a nursery for the egg and food for the young slaad.

What is this genetics of which you speak and how does it work in D&D land where a dragon and an ooze can make a lovely little baby half-dragon ooze.

[Chei]

First, it’s definitely interesting that they have to wipe the Outsider’s minds. Not that I think it’ll come up again, but it’s still a cool tidbit. Also, I’m sad but not surprised to see Minrah go. Finally, I’m definitely eagerly awaiting seeing what happens with Durkon once he’s brought back.

Well, there's one group of powerful Outsiders with a stake in this conflict: that consortium of Lawful/Chaotic/Neutral Evil dudes. zimmerwald1915 mentioned them. They now know about the Snarl and might be wondering what the gods do to ageless, immortal creatures who learn about it.

I wonder how often knowledge of the Snarl gets out. It's been over 1000 years into this world's tenure and top-level Outsiders are just learning about it. Wouldn't the gods also have to do things like destroy records of the Snarl kept by Outsiders? It can't be so simple as to just cast Forget Snarl and call it a day.

[Father Miles]

Well, another strip or two I guess until we find out just how much time has passed on the material plane while Thor, Durkon and Minrah have been flying around the multiverse.

It's entirely possible, I think, that we might never see directly what happened to the ex-Exarch and his sidekicks, since Lurkon was the big major arc villain for this book. It was pretty much a given that the Order were making a beeline for the council of elders as soon as they recuperated somewhat from the last battle. From a narrative standpoint, the information that Thor has been imparting is of much more relevance to the overarching storyline of the strip than cleaning up a few rogue vampires, as much as we all might feel cheated out of another badass battle sequence.


Or, added story book?

[danielxcutter]

Well, there's one group of powerful Outsiders with a stake in this conflict: that consortium of Lawful/Chaotic/Neutral Evil dudes. zimmerwald1915 mentioned them. They now know about the Snarl and might be wondering what the gods do to ageless, immortal creatures who learn about it.

I wonder how often knowledge of the Snarl gets out. It's been over 1000 years into this world's tenure and top-level Outsiders are just learning about it. Wouldn't the gods also have to do things like destroy records of the Snarl kept by Outsiders? It can't be so simple as to just cast Forget Snarl and call it a day.

Maybe it could. After all, I doubt even the IFCC are powerful enough to resist the power of all the gods.

[thelivingmonkey]

The thoughts that went through my head during this strip:

:vaarsuvius: Obviously the cleric in question is Hilgya. The chances of it being somebody else are 1 in a million.
:elan: Wait, exactly 1 in a million? But that means...
:redcloak: Mwahahahaha!!!!

Just want to point out before this becomes a "theory": Durkon said a "priestess of Loki" which the deva responded to with "yes...she"

So, imo, 0% chance it's redcloak, 100% chance it is a cleric of LOKI

[Onyavar]

Gods wipe the outsider's minds, that explains why none of them know about it (like for example the IFCC)

Ummm...


More than that - it means the IFCC has a legitimate grievance.

Yeah that. The ominous foreshadowing of the IFCC's long-term plans indicates to me that they are not planning to stage a small scale planar war. Remember, the genre is selfaware stick figure fantasy parody. The gods better be careful.

But I thought the mindwipe is also a reference / shoutout. Can't anyone remember a geek canon work where there were Gods and crazy immortal outsiders?


... I am a bit bummed that we never did get that good vampire durkon, but maybe we will see one later on down the road, albeit not durkon but another vampire who turned to the side of good.

is there a spell you can use to ressurect a vampire? Not that I think she's doing that, but now I'm curious.

Vampires are outsiders and thus cannot be raised. Thank all Gods, in Undurkon's case. Also, he was a nameless, colorless, humorless cowardly side character without a backstory or relationships. It's more likely the guy with a halberd gets ressurected, at least he had a devoted fanbase.

But if you are still looking for a vampire who is genuinely interested in the well-being of others, look no further. Here he is! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0328.html)

[Jasdoif]

What is this genetics of which you speak and how does it work in D&D land where a dragon and an ooze can make a lovely little baby half-dragon ooze.Genetics is the name of that theory which says that non-mechanical aspects of a creature can manifest as inherited templates with no mechanical impact; as a way to explain why some children physically resemble their parents far more than other members of their species/race/subtype, even when their physical ability scores are 10 or more points apart. It's kind of a niche field.

[Rrmcklin]

Oh, I'm almost certain you're right except that he'll: get rezzed back at the Godsmoot by the Halfling priest of Loki who is serving there.

The only way it doesn't go sideways is if the plot demands it, which is a pretty viable reason in this universe.

The Deva confirmed that it was a priestess of Loki attempting to resurrect Durkon. Besides having the wrong gender, the High Priest of Loki has no reason to even know who Durkon is.

[The MunchKING]

I kinda hope we'll now go back in time a bit and see the Order come to, but I guess technically speaking they might still be unconscious and this could well be just Hilgya and Belkar.

Casting time 10 minutes. How long does it take to recover from KO under standard 3.5 rules?

(Knowing of course in OOTS rules it's whenever waking up won't be bad for the plot.)

[The MunchKING]

Just want to point out before this becomes a "theory": Durkon said a "priestess of Loki" which the deva responded to with "yes...she"

So, imo, 0% chance it's redcloak, 100% chance it is a cleric of LOKI

Return of Brainy Pete? Wait, not him. He was the thieves' guild guy. His friend; the cleric of Loki. Who's obviously had a run in with a Belt of Gender Swapping. :smallbiggrin:

[The MunchKING]

But I thought the mindwipe is also a reference / shoutout. Can't anyone remember a geek canon work where there were Gods and crazy immortal outsiders?


The Gods Must be Crazy?



Vampires are outsiders and thus cannot be raised.

Undead actually.

[Rrmcklin]

I know that everyone seems to be in consensus that the cleric raising Durkon is Hilgya. It has been suggested by some that the cleric is instead the high priest form the Godsmoot. However, an unmentioned possibility that would jive well with The Giant's crazy curveballs, what if it was a cleric from the church of Loki at Greysky city? With Bozzok dead, maybe there was power vacuum enough that for some reason they go back there and get him raised there because Hilgya is unwilling to raise him.... Just a thought.

In terms of complicating factors once he gets back, perhaps he was raised with Reincarnate and not another spell. In this way, he might have an identity crisis because he is no longer a dwarf. A huge part of his character is based off of his sense of duty from being a dwarf (recall his earlier encounter with Hilgya), so this could make for some interesting character development.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say something so needlessly complicated isn't going to happen and uproot the entire story.

Because as far as I can tell, the Giant doesn't do "crazy curveballs" that don't make any sense just for the sake of being unexpected or "subversive".

[M.A.D]

I would not be surprised if this spell is being chanted by Hilgya, with Belkar's knife to her throat. I don't think it'll be the case, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Grey Wolf

How about Belkar's knife to the baby's throat? Would that surprise you?

[Peelee]

I know that everyone seems to be in consensus that the cleric raising Durkon is Hilgya. It has been suggested by some that the cleric is instead the high priest form the Godsmoot. However, an unmentioned possibility that would jive well with The Giant's crazy curveballs, what if it was a cleric from the church of Loki at Greysky city?

Any cleric of Loki other than Hilgya would need some amount of Durkon's remains that was part of his body at the time he died.

[Kareasint]

The last two panels were disturbing.

[Jasdoif]

How long does it take to recover from KO under standard 3.5 rules?Assuming no magical healing, the rate for recovering nonlethal damage is "1 hit point per hour per character level" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#nonlethalDamage); so if we also assume precision on Roy's part, probably an hour.

[M.A.D]

I know that everyone seems to be in consensus that the cleric raising Durkon is Hilgya. It has been suggested by some that the cleric is instead the high priest form the Godsmoot. However, an unmentioned possibility that would jive well with The Giant's crazy curveballs, what if it was a cleric from the church of Loki at Greysky city? With Bozzok dead, maybe there was power vacuum enough that for some reason they go back there and get him raised there because Hilgya is unwilling to raise him.... Just a thought.

In terms of complicating factors once he gets back, perhaps he was raised with Reincarnate and not another spell. In this way, he might have an identity crisis because he is no longer a dwarf. A huge part of his character is based off of his sense of duty from being a dwarf (recall his earlier encounter with Hilgya), so this could make for some interesting character development.

That would raise a question of why would they raise Durkon of all people. You can't just add "for some reason" to a plot and expect it to sell. There should be many things standing between "A power vacuum at Greysky city" and "Some random dwarf getting rezz'd in Firmament", such as why would they know about Durkon, why would they want him, how do they know that he's already dead and in need of a raise right that moment, etc... It's already too complicated before he gets back, so I'm not even gonna touch the problems after.

Also, Durkon is being raised by a cleric of Loki, so the thing about the cleric of Hel doing the raising is probably inaccurate as well. No curve balls for you there.

[jwhouk]

Occam called. The package of his razors said "Hilgya Specials."

I do think it would be funny if Roy and/or Belkar are standing there holding her at sword/knifepoint - or Roy holding his sword while Belkar holds Kudzu.

[Psyren]

Poor Minrah not going to get raised looks like :(

"Poor Minrah?" She won! She doesn't have to worry about honor or dying in combat for the rest of her... well, ever.

Anyway - the last two panels were awesome :smallbiggrin:

[Ruck]

Yeah, from a sci-fi show about aliens who gamble. Actually, it's probably more famous because of the internet by now.


Hey, hey, hey now, that's original Star Trek, not just "a sci-fi show"

I admittedly am more familiar with it due to the reference in "Deep Space Homer."


First, it’s definitely interesting that they have to wipe the Outsider’s minds. Not that I think it’ll come up again, but it’s still a cool tidbit. Also, I’m sad but not surprised to see Minrah go. Finally, I’m definitely eagerly awaiting seeing what happens with Durkon once he’s brought back.

I actually would put a small bet at the right odds on it somehow would put a wrench in whatever the IFCC is planning (although I don't think they would succeed anyway, so I'm not sure how).

I'd put an even smaller bet at much longer odds that this information suggests MITD is an outsider.


Oh, I'm almost certain you're right except that he'll: get rezzed back at the Godsmoot by the Halfling priest of Loki who is serving there.

The only way it doesn't go sideways is if the plot demands it, which is a pretty viable reason in this universe.

Well, by the same token, the only way it does go sideways is if the plot demands it.

And one thing I definitely think the plot demands right now is that Hilgya and Durkon have unfinished business.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Ummm...



Yeah that. The ominous foreshadowing of the IFCC's long-term plans indicates to me that they are not planning to stage a small scale planar war. Remember, the genre is selfaware stick figure fantasy parody. The gods better be careful.

But I thought the mindwipe is also a reference / shoutout. Can't anyone remember a geek canon work where there were Gods and crazy immortal outsiders?



Vampires are outsiders and thus cannot be raised. Thank all Gods, in Undurkon's case. Also, he was a nameless, colorless, humorless cowardly side character without a backstory or relationships. It's more likely the guy with a halberd gets ressurected, at least he had a devoted fanbase.

But if you are still looking for a vampire who is genuinely interested in the well-being of others, look no further. Here he is! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0328.html)

yeah, well A boring side character can be made interesting with time and effort to ahem* flesh out his character.

But I'm glad real durkon is getting rezzed.

[Ruck]

Vampires are outsiders and thus cannot be raised. Thank all Gods, in Undurkon's case. Also, he was a nameless, colorless, humorless cowardly side character without a backstory or relationships. It's more likely the guy with a halberd gets ressurected, at least he had a devoted fanbase.

But if you are still looking for a vampire who is genuinely interested in the well-being of others, look no further. Here he is! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0328.html)

I don't think that's a vampire; as far as I remember, all the vampires we've seen have red eyes.

[Peelee]

I don't think that's a vampire; as far as I remember, all the vampires we've seen have red eyes.

Also hes out in the sunlight. Sure, you can research that spell, but I doubt every vampire in OOTS would have.

[Rrmcklin]

Not super important, but I think this strip makes it more likely that Loki is CE instead of CN if a Deva automatically worries about nefarious purposes from one of his clerics.

Of course, CN can do some pretty bad things too but, you know.

[Ruck]

Not super important, but I think this strip makes it more likely that Loki is CE instead of CN if a Deva automatically worries about nefarious purposes from one of his clerics.

Of course, CN can do some pretty bad things too but, you know.

Given that, typically, the soul only gets the alignment of the caster, I'm taking that as a pretty good sign that the Giant is deliberately not pinning down whether Hilgya is Neutral or Evil.

[Jasdoif]

Given that, typically, the soul only gets the alignment of the caster, I'm taking that as a pretty good sign that the Giant is deliberately not pinning down whether Hilgya is Neutral or Evil.Name, alignment, and patron deity if applicable (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#revivificationagainstOnesWill).. ..Of course, Durkon cut the deva off by guessing "priestess of Loki"; so it could still a deliberate unreveal of alignment (or cleric, I suppose). Just in case the lack of reveal was ambiguous...which lacks of revelation usually are o_o

[dtilque]

Not super important, but I think this strip makes it more likely that Loki is CE instead of CN if a Deva automatically worries about nefarious purposes from one of his clerics.

The Resurrectee learns before agreeing to the Resurrection what the alignment of the caster is. What this does is it confirms Hilgya as Evil, something which really shouldn't be in doubt. But this forum contains at least one person who questions just about any obvious fact in the strip. (Call that dtilque's Law, if it doesn't already have a name.)

[danielxcutter]

The Resurrectee learns before agreeing to the Resurrection what the alignment of the caster is. What this does is it confirms Hilgya as Evil, something which really shouldn't be in doubt. But this forum contains at least one person who questions just about any obvious fact in the strip. (Call that dtilque's Law, if it doesn't already have a name.)

I don't think it confirms that Hilgya is Evil, honestly. A cleric of Loki raising one of Thor in and of itself is likely to cause that reaction.

[The MunchKING]

I actually would put a small bet at the right odds on it somehow would put a wrench in whatever the IFCC is planning (although I don't think they would succeed anyway, so I'm not sure how).

My guess is that the Evil Gods HAVE to cooperate with the Good Gods on this whole "new worlds" thing, so they've learned Teamwork and Cooperation. They will turn out to not WANT the annihilation of the Good Gods, and they will be willing to step in and put some outsiders in their place rather than let the Blood War spill over into murdering actual Gods.

Like all the Gods want their philosophy to be on top, but an out and out Holy/Unholy war will only lead to weakening the over all power of the Gods. If they start fighting back with Raw Creation Threads, then it's possible a new Snarl will be made, possibly on a plane other than the Prime Material, and NOBODY (Who knows what they're talking about) wants THAT.

[Ruck]

Name, alignment, and patron deity if applicable (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#revivificationagainstOnesWill).. ..Of course, Durkon cut the deva off by guessing "priestess of Loki"; so it could still a deliberate unreveal of alignment (or cleric, I suppose). Just in case the lack of reveal was ambiguous...which lacks of revelation usually are o_o

Well, nuts. This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html) had me believing differently-- especially since it might have gone differently if the message was "Lawful Good Cleric of Thor" and not "Lawful Good Cleric of the Twelve Gods."


The Resurrectee learns before agreeing to the Resurrection what the alignment of the caster is. What this does is it confirms Hilgya as Evil, something which really shouldn't be in doubt. But this forum contains at least one person who questions just about any obvious fact in the strip. (Call that dtilque's Law, if it doesn't already have a name.)


I don't think it confirms that Hilgya is Evil, honestly. A cleric of Loki raising one of Thor in and of itself is likely to cause that reaction.

Yeah, I mean, we just saw that you get a free drink ticket if you're a Cleric of Thor who gets killed by a Cleric of Loki. It wouldn't really matter what either of their alignments are in that case, just that the rivalry is so deeply established.

And as far as my theory about Hilgya's alignment, every time the Giant has had the opportunity to pin down some aspect of her alignment-- the Anarchic Water, this Resurrection right here-- he's deliberately omitted giving any information on the Good-Evil axis. They say "one is an event, two is a coincidence, three is a pattern," but in a story being written by someone (as opposed to real life), I'm comfortable with calling two a pattern.


My guess is that the Evil Gods HAVE to cooperate with the Good Gods on this whole "new worlds" thing, so they've learned Teamwork and Cooperation. They will turn out to not WANT the annihilation of the Good Gods, and they will be willing to step in and put some outsiders in their place rather than let the Blood War spill over into murdering actual Gods.

Like all the Gods want their philosophy to be on top, but an out and out Holy/Unholy war will only lead to weakening the over all power of the Gods. If they start fighting back with Raw Creation Threads, then it's possible a new Snarl will be made, possibly on a plane other than the Prime Material, and NOBODY (Who knows what they're talking about) wants THAT.

This is pretty good reasoning. Not sure if it's how the story will go, but it certainly makes sense.

[LadyEowyn]

Given that, typically, the soul only gets the alignment of the caster, I'm taking that as a pretty good sign that the Giant is deliberately not pinning down whether Hilgya is Neutral or Evil.
I agree. That's the clearest reason for Rich to write it as "the person casting the spell is a cleric of Loki" rather than "the person casting the spell is Evil". And that's been a deliberate choice in how Hilgya is written; for example, we get Anarchic Giraffes.

I expect we'll get a lot more insight into Hilgya's character over the next couple strips.

[MADCrab]

I don't think it confirms that Hilgya is Evil, honestly. A cleric of Loki raising one of Thor in and of itself is likely to cause that reaction.

Nothing she's done has been captial-E Evil, so far as I can tell. She took vengeance on her family, yes, but "Good" characters have done as much, and Neutral are certainly allowed. Her Giraffes were called out as chaotic, not Fiendish. Mostly, she just seems to want to escape the lawful system. And if we take a step back and look at the narrative: She's the mother of Durkon's kid, so for him to have any reasonably happy ending she can't be Evil. Chaotic Neutral and Lawfulest Good would be bad enough!

My money is definitely on "Chaotic Neutral" at this point.

As far as "why she's raising him" I suspect for all her rage, Durkon was always going to get a chance to plead his case before final judgement. If he's dead, he's going to get dragged right on back to this mortal coil to stand trial.

[Peelee]

Sorry, I did not explain my idea thoroughly. I was thinking that the order attempts to convince Hilgya to raise Durkon, but she is unwilling because of her hatred of Durkon. So, they attempt to think of other ways to raise him. The Godsmoot priests are out of the question because the room is sealed and the evil clerics might intervene. Haley thinks, "oh, remember how when I was back in Greysky city, killing thieves guild members did not do any lasting damage because they had a ton of Loki clerics to ressurrect them in the church there. Why don't we go to Greysky city and see if I can get a favor from an old friend or find the cleric with whom she hid or just go try to bribe the church in order to raise Durkon." So, the Order goes to Greysky city, pays a hefty fee and gets Durkon raised.

I'm not sure where you are getting the part about a cleric of Hel raising him. I did not intend to say this, and if I did, please tell me.

I think of this theory because I just feel that given the amount of complications surrounding Roy's rez, it seems too straightforward for the sequence of events to be 1) The order kills Greg 2) Hilgya immediately raises Durkon. The fact that Durkon also seems to think that Hilgya is the one responsible further opens up the prospect of this view being refuted. Why specifically state that Durkon thinks the person raising him is Hilgya when this detail will be unsurprisingly be revealed 1-2 strips later? The deatil of Durkon asking preemptively "Is it a cleric of Loki" seems to harken back to Roy's overly specific question to the Oracle that led to him being misled. This could happen again here, not necessarily involving Gresky city but instead someone who is just not-Hilgya. I only mention Greysky city because it is the largest congregation of Loki clerics that we know of.

I realize that this may seem far-fetched, but I do not think it is going to be as simple as Hilgya raises DUrkon and everything goes back to normal.

That's a long way out of the way when they have the council vote and the Gate problems both at hand, and significantly closer to where they are.

[Keltest]

Nothing she's done has been captial-E Evil, so far as I can tell. She took vengeance on her family, yes, but "Good" characters have done as much, and Neutral are certainly allowed. Her Giraffes were called out as chaotic, not Fiendish. Mostly, she just seems to want to escape the lawful system. And if we take a step back and look at the narrative: She's the mother of Durkon's kid, so for him to have any reasonably happy ending she can't be Evil. Chaotic Neutral and Lawfulest Good would be bad enough!

My money is definitely on "Chaotic Neutral" at this point.

As far as "why she's raising him" I suspect for all her rage, Durkon was always going to get a chance to plead his case before final judgement. If he's dead, he's going to get dragged right on back to this mortal coil to stand trial.

I would like to see an example of good characters knowingly doing worse than dooming an entire extended family to a life of destitution, at best.

[MADCrab]

I would like to see an example of good characters knowingly doing worse than dooming an entire extended family to a life of destitution, at best.

Haley straight-up murdering her rival in cold blood?

What's-her-face the worst paladin ever, causing the destruction of the Azure Guard? Technically, Good up until the end there.

[Peelee]

Haley straight-up murdering her rival in cold blood?

Rivals who are plotting to kill you are extended family now?

What's-her-face the worst paladin ever, causing the destruction of the Azure Guard?

Xykon was a female paladin?

[danielxcutter]

Haley straight-up murdering her rival in cold blood?

Actually, there was more about that in a bonus strip in the books, and the Giant has expressed regret not including it in the online strip precisely because it'd feel like that.

*casts Summon Banana IX for specifics*

[Peelee]

*casts Summon Banana IX for specifics*

Spell failed, Silver Dragon summoned instead.

I don't want Roy to suddenly do something out of character or shocking, the closest thing I got to that was I had Haley kill off the assassin that had been harassing her, and that was still pretty surprising, and I think a lot of people didn't see it coming, but I also sort of goofed there in the sense that I cut the scene that made it more obvious that Crystal was still actively trying to kill Haley, truce or no truce, so that was something I fixed in the book. . . but it's still, it was a fairly surprising, but again, like I said, I still have to go darker to be surprising like that, so, I think that's where it comes from really.

[MADCrab]

Rivals who are plotting to kill you are extended family now?

I (and you) said worse than leaving your extended family destitute. So yeah, murder is a good example.

Are you just sniping at me for fun? This doesn't really matter that much to what I said in the first place, you realize. If you want to talk Neutral, Vaarsuvius murdered a LOT more people than that (though admittedly they might have been evil at the time).

EDIT: As for your second response... Miko or whatever her name was, who managed to screw up basically everything long before the undead arrived. I thought worst-paladin basically covered it.

[Peelee]

I (and you) said worse than leaving your extended family destitute. So yeah, murder is a good example.
See above.
ETA: Also, I never said that.

Are you just sniping at me for fun? This doesn't really matter that much to what I said in the first place, you realize.
If it doesn't matter much to what you said in the first place, then surely you won't mind if I point out that it's not really a great response. Also, unsure what you mean by "sniping at you" unless you think that responding in any way other that positivity at you is sniping.

EDIT: As for your second response... Miko or whatever her name was, who managed to screw up basically everything long before the undead arrived. I thought worst-paladin basically covered it.
Strange, I remember the Sapphire Guard pretty un-destroyed when the undead arrived. But Miko's actions had an effect, sure. Just like Shojo's did. Just like Roy's did. Just like Eugene's did. Just like a while bunch of stuff that all culminated in them getting destroyed did. But Xykon destroyed them, not anyone else, just like Belkar caused the death of the Oracle and not anyone else's.

[Ruck]

Sorry, I did not explain my idea thoroughly. I was thinking that the order attempts to convince Hilgya to raise Durkon, but she is unwilling because of her hatred of Durkon. So, they attempt to think of other ways to raise him. The Godsmoot priests are out of the question because the room is sealed and the evil clerics might intervene. Haley thinks, "oh, remember how when I was back in Greysky city, killing thieves guild members did not do any lasting damage because they had a ton of Loki clerics to ressurrect them in the church there. Why don't we go to Greysky city and see if I can get a favor from an old friend or find the cleric with whom she hid or just go try to bribe the church in order to raise Durkon." So, the Order goes to Greysky city, pays a hefty fee and gets Durkon raised.

I'm not sure where you are getting the part about a cleric of Hel raising him. I did not intend to say this, and if I did, please tell me.

I think of this theory because I just feel that given the amount of complications surrounding Roy's rez, it seems too straightforward for the sequence of events to be 1) The order kills Greg 2) Hilgya immediately raises Durkon. The fact that Durkon also seems to think that Hilgya is the one responsible further opens up the prospect of this view being refuted. Why specifically state that Durkon thinks the person raising him is Hilgya when this detail will be unsurprisingly be revealed 1-2 strips later? The deatil of Durkon asking preemptively "Is it a cleric of Loki" seems to harken back to Roy's overly specific question to the Oracle that led to him being misled. This could happen again here, not necessarily involving Gresky city but instead someone who is just not-Hilgya. I only mention Greysky city because it is the largest congregation of Loki clerics that we know of.

I realize that this may seem far-fetched, but I do not think it is going to be as simple as Hilgya raises DUrkon and everything goes back to normal.

Another hypothesis: The fact that this already happened with Roy means it likely won't happen again with Durkon.

As far as yours: Roy died in 443 and was Resurrected in 665. That's 222 strips. Durkon died in 877, 270 strips ago. Even if he comes back to life next strip, it has already been longer and more complicated to bring Durkon back to life than it was to bring back Roy.

[Peelee]

Another hypothesis: The fact that this already happened with Roy means it likely won't happen again with Durkon.

Seconded. We've seen a dead person come back to life significantly later. We haven't seen a dead person come back to life nearly immediately. My money is on the latter.

[Keltest]

I (and you) said worse than leaving your extended family destitute. So yeah, murder is a good example.

Are you just sniping at me for fun? This doesn't really matter that much to what I said in the first place, you realize. If you want to talk Neutral, Vaarsuvius murdered a LOT more people than that (though admittedly they might have been evil at the time).

EDIT: As for your second response... Miko or whatever her name was, who managed to screw up basically everything long before the undead arrived. I thought worst-paladin basically covered it.

Crystal was actively trying to kill Haley. She is not obligated to fight fair just because of her good alignment.

[LadyEowyn]

We've definitely seen Neutral characters doing far worse things than getting non-violent revenge against a group of people who wronged them. For example, Enor and Ganji's livelihood is handing people over to be killed in the gladitorial arena, irrespective of those people's guilt. Girard Draketooth's family spent centuries abducting people's children, not to mention Girard setting up an explosion of to kill people who might be allies. And that's without even getting into the problem of V's actions.

Neutral (on the Good-Evil axis) is a wide spectrum in OotS, with Julio on the upper end and Enor and Ganji on the lower end. It seems easily broad enough to encompass Hilgya's character.

In contrast, pretty much all the Evil main or secondary characters we've seen have killed multiple innocent people for entertainment or personal gain.

[MADCrab]

Crystal was actively trying to kill Haley. She is not obligated to fight fair just because of her good alignment.

According to the story I read, it was pretty cold-blooded. Heck, apparently the Giant felt obliged to change that in print versions, which I've never seen.

And sure, maybe it's not required. Which would just support my actual point, about how taking financial revenge on her family - a family that would still try and force her into marriage, by the by - Hilgya was not being capital-E Evil.

EDIT:

ETA: Also, I never said that.
...ETA? Are you going someplace?
You're right, I misspoke. I said that, you seemed to think I was claiming that it was murdering family?


Strange, I remember the Sapphire Guard pretty un-destroyed when the undead arrived.Sure. Just, you know, their liege - the guy with the plans - was dead. Slight impairment to their ability to defend the city.

[Snails]

Neutral (on the Good-Evil axis) is a wide spectrum in OotS, with Julio on the upper end and Enor and Ganji on the lower end. It seems easily broad enough to encompass Hilgya's character.

I would agree with that -- it is within the realm of possible Hilgya sneaks within CN. Hilgya's is mainly absurdly self-centered and individualistic. She does have vicious instincts, as demonstrated by how often her first hypothesis about how to solve a problem involves violence. But it is unclear if she takes any actual pleasure in inflicting pain, unlike the other obviously evil characters in the OotSverse.

That said, I would vote to put her in CE, myself.

[Keltest]

According to the story I read, it was pretty cold-blooded. Heck, apparently the Giant felt obliged to change that in print versions, which I've never seen.

And sure, maybe it's not required. Which would just support my actual point, about how taking financial revenge on her family - a family that would still try and force her into marriage, by the by - Hilgya was not being capital-E Evil.

Im not contesting that it was cold blooded. Haley is chaotic and a rogue, of course she doesn't fight fair. But the good/evil axis is not the one that describes how fair you are in a fight or contest.

And Rich didn't actually change the scene at all in the print version, he just added additional scenes showing Crystal's attempts to kill Haley in spite of the truce, something he intended to be the case the whole time but in hindsight felt he communicated poorly in the online strip.

[hroþila]

I thought that scene was written/drawn, then cut from the online comic for reasons of pacing, intending from the beginning to restore it as a bonus scene in the print version, but I might be misremembering things.

[Lombard]

It's kind of like waking up in a Vegas hotel bathtub missing a kidney. But instead of something missing you've got something new. Which turns out to be much worse. Ack!

[M.A.D]

I would like to see an example of good characters knowingly doing worse than dooming an entire extended family to a life of destitution, at best.

Why would you? It's not like we're comparing good characters to Hilgya to find out if she's evil.

For neutral ones, I can see V do a whole lot worse if (s)he were in an evil adventuring party, simply murdering their way through everything for the sake of convenience and XPs. Granted, V were only cruel to whose (s)he deemed Evil, but in Hilgya's defense, she's got real grievance against her extended family. Getting revenge on people who treated you no better than a political tool and forced you to marry a stranger at arrow points, I think blowing their purse would count as a minor prank at best.

[Peelee]

I thought that scene was written/drawn, then cut from the online comic for reasons of pacing, intending from the beginning to restore it as a bonus scene in the print version, but I might be misremembering things.

Yep, it was scripted before being cut for pacing reasons. It's in the commentary for Don't Split the Party after 642, under the header "Deleted Scene: Get Roy."

[The MunchKING]

just like Belkar caused the death of the Oracle and not anyone else's.

A LOT of Goblin souls are going to be REALLY confused by that, because they thought the whole 'Stabbing them in the face" thing was a definite "Cause of Death".

[Peelee]

A LOT of Goblin souls are going to be REALLY confused by that, because they thought the whole 'Stabbing them in the face" thing was a definite "Cause of Death".

Fair point. Not anyone else's that Belkar asked about. Wanna play Monopoly? ;)

[Dutch]

Poor Minrah not going to get raised looks like :(


As much as it would be nice to see her raised I don't think she wants to be, judging by her reaction in 1136 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1136.html)

[Thanatosia]

Minor utterly needless anal nitpick on the Slaad scene purely for the sake of nitpicking..... if the Deva was implanted with a seed pellet from a Red Slaad, the Resulting Slaad that would eat its way out of her would be a Blue Slaad (With or without divine templates added), or possibly a green slaad if the deva counted as a spellcaster. Blue Slaad do not Implant Seed Pelets - instead of "Implanting the nurse 14 minutes after he was born" it would have bit the nurse and infected her with Slaad Fever, which if uncured would eventually transform the nurse into a Red Slaad. If the Deva's Spawn was a Green Slaad, it would have neither Implant nor Slaad Fever - they do not seem to have a reproductive method.

[Psychronia]

D'aww. It's heartwarming (hopefully not literally in a few minutes) to see Durkon back in the game. Everyone needs that pillar of support again.

Also, I feel like there's something I don't know about that monster and/or frogs for me to get the joke in that last panel, and I'm already too squicked out to try to learn more. :smalleek:

[Gift Jeraff]

D'aww. It's heartwarming (hopefully not literally in a few minutes) to see Durkon back in the game. Everyone needs that pillar of support again.

Also, I feel like there's something I don't know about that monster and/or frogs for me to get the joke in that last panel, and I'm already too squicked out to try to learn more. :smalleek:

In simplest terms, those frogs are D&D's Chaotic equivalent to angels and fiends.

[Particle_Man]

Poor Minrah not going to get raised looks like :(

She is not high enough level for the "big mission" so barring that there is no reason for her to want to be raised - she gets to go to Valhalla instead of Hel! She *won* her tiny part of the bet!


That's a good point. On the comic with the big diagram of the Outer Planes, the plane that most people concluded is Valhalla ("Fight the good fight") is next to Limbo.

Assuming that it is easier to get to adjacent planes than nonadjacent planes, the drunk weekend with the Slaad sounds more plausible too.


Not super important, but I think this strip makes it more likely that Loki is CE instead of CN if a Deva automatically worries about nefarious purposes from one of his clerics.

Of course, CN can do some pretty bad things too but, you know.

Yeah, the CN Red/Blue Slaadi reproduction methods are pretty bad indeed, as alluded to in this very strip.

[Mandor]

Alright. Not a thing that I expected. I thought sure Hilgya would just spit on the corpse-dust and walk away.
On the other hand, maybe she just wants to personally murdalize him, instead of settling for Belkar doing the deed.
On the third hand, ... I've run out of hands.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Hmm. on second thought, maybe it is the guy from before who rezzes durkon.

There could be a time skip like with roy, after all, how long is a trip through the astral plane? especially if they fly around 1000 times with loopdy loops? and endless thoughts distracting you from the time as well as being motion sick?

The whole thing could be explained with an flash back panel or whatever recapping everything that happened, and with the council vote over and the world saved for now, they go to grey sky city to ressurect durkon as hilgya wants nothing to do with raising durkon.

Or not.


Headed back could also mean headed back...to grey sky city.

And that could be why the angel dude was bringing up the story about the frog thing, the slaad or whatever? He thought the male cleric was the mother of his children, when he didn't realize he was talking about a woman.

The girdle of opposite genders being brought up would be a nice call back.

But for now lets assume its just hilgya as that is kind of the default position and most likely.

[Mordaedil]

Usually slaadi just reproduce by punching their targets, so... Good lord you people have dirty minds. :smallamused:

[Fyraltari]

Hmm. on second thought, maybe it is the guy from before who rezzes durkon.
The Deva says "she".


There could be a time skip like with roy, after all, how long is a trip through the astral plane? especially if they fly around 1000 times with loopdy loops? and endless thoughts distracting you from the time as well as being motion sick?
I don't think Thor would lose track of time, or waste it, seeing as he didn't know how long Durkon had.


The whole thing could be explained with an flash back panel or whatever recapping everything that happened, and with the council vote over and the world saved for now, they go to grey sky city to ressurect durkon as hilgya wants nothing to do with raising durkon.
Why Greysky City? It's in the opposite direction of where they want to go, and assuming Hilgya refused to resurect Durkon, there are still a boatload of Clerics of Thor in Firmament, and even assuming none of those can cast Resurection, High Priestess Rubyrock would be headed back there.

But most importantly, do people really think it plausible that Hilgya came back to the story with here and Durkon's baby, fought with the Order and just left without confronting Durkon once?

[TuringTest]

........anyone else now suddently 100% certain that Durkon's resurrection is going to have some weird complications? Like, it's going to be a week or two later, or the entire council was killed or Hilgya is rez'ing him away from the OOTS or something like that?

Might just be my inner Elan talking, but having not seen any of the living since Durkon was staked... well, who knows what's happened down there...

We assume it's Hilgya doing the resurrection, just like Durkon did. But it has not been confirmed yet. If it isn't, that would be a hell of a twist!

Dun, Dun, DUN...

[HeeJay]

Six pages, and not a comment on Minrah's epic level loophole abuse?

She's Lawful Sneaky for sure.

[Bisqwit]

So Durkon will be naked when he is resurrected, right?

[Potatopeelerkin]

I'm gonna put my money on Hilgya being Chaotic Neutral too.


So Durkon will be naked when he is resurrected, right?

Only if his corpse is naked, I think. Roy's was because he was turned into a golem, but Durkon should still have his clothes.

[Linneris]

I think Durkon has been through enough by now that "A baby chewed his way out of my non-existent womb" registers as a "Mondays, amiright?" kind of deal.

I'm curious now. Do devas even have reproductive organs? How do they reproduce, anyway?



Only if his corpse is naked, I think. Roy's was because he was turned into a golem, but Durkon should still have his clothes.

There isn't a corpse. The vampire was turned into dust, which I presume is being used in lieu of a body part for the Resurrection spell.


The thoughts that went through my head during this strip:

:vaarsuvius: Obviously the cleric in question is Hilgya. The chances of it being somebody else are 1 in a million.
:elan: Wait, exactly 1 in a million? But that means...
:redcloak: Mwahahahaha!!!!

Redcloak isn't a priestess of Loki, though. :) Nor do we know any other priestess of Loki except Hilgya.

[Potatopeelerkin]

IThere isn't a corpse. The vampire was turned into dust, which I presume is being used in lieu of a body part for the Resurrection spell

Oh yeah. Apparently I'm an idiot.

Good thing there's not a lot of wind in these subterranean temples.

[Themrys]

Minor utterly needless anal nitpick on the Slaad scene purely for the sake of nitpicking..... if the Deva was implanted with a seed pellet from a Red Slaad, the Resulting Slaad that would eat its way out of her would be a Blue Slaad (With or without divine templates added), or possibly a green slaad if the deva counted as a spellcaster. Blue Slaad do not Implant Seed Pelets - instead of "Implanting the nurse 14 minutes after he was born" it would have bit the nurse and infected her with Slaad Fever, which if uncured would eventually transform the nurse into a Red Slaad. If the Deva's Spawn was a Green Slaad, it would have neither Implant nor Slaad Fever - they do not seem to have a reproductive method.

That deva is clearly male. That's the joke.


Very minor nitpick: Aren't Slaad an all-female race? They apparently can lay viable eggs without any contribution by a male, an ability I only know from bees (female bees, mind), so the "baby" couldn't be a "he" ... of course, the Deva may not have known that and still think having an egg laid inside him by a Slaad is pregnancy. (Can Devas intentionally lie? If there's just rules against lying to souls, I guess he'd get a free pass for not wanting to traumatize Durkon.)
Men claimed for a long time that their sperm was "seed", i.e. complete, which it is not, and still do so in language, so perhaps he just doesn't understand that for a real pregnancy, he'd have to have an egg. (Or he is just compartementalizing his extremely traumatic experience.)

[Adeptus]

*lol* this one was extra great. Just the right mix of new information, character development, humor and body horror.

[mjasghar]

I'm curious what it is that breaks the minds of all the Outsiders. That, coupled with what happens to Odin, makes you really wonder about the stability of pretty much everyone who is immortal in the OOTSverse.

I'm also rather curious if there have been many mortals who have managed to weather the destruction of their world (via living in the Astral Plane or one of the outer ones), or if there's a more vital connection to their own world. Also, what happens to the souls that came from previous worlds, have their memories been erased or are they just gone/faded into their plane of alignment?

Souls that go to afterlives become outsiders - wether petitioners or the evolvable races like some of the fiends and the archons

[Goblin_Priest]

My prediction: They've been travelling the astral plane for a while, now!

May or may not be Hylgia, but I'm still keeping my bet on Durkon not returning before the council vote is resolved.

[Goblin_Priest]

That deva is clearly male. That's the joke.


Very minor nitpick: Aren't Slaad an all-female race? They apparently can lay viable eggs without any contribution by a male, an ability I only know from bees (female bees, mind), so the "baby" couldn't be a "he" ... of course, the Deva may not have known that and still think having an egg laid inside him by a Slaad is pregnancy. (Can Devas intentionally lie? If there's just rules against lying to souls, I guess he'd get a free pass for not wanting to traumatize Durkon.)
Men claimed for a long time that their sperm was "seed", i.e. complete, which it is not, and still do so in language, so perhaps he just doesn't understand that for a real pregnancy, he'd have to have an egg. (Or he is just compartementalizing his extremely traumatic experience.)

Many (most?) hymenopterans have a haplodiploid caste determination, meaning almost any female can theoretically, under some circumstances, lay viable eggs (which only yield males).

The Slaad system would rather be something more akin to thelytoky. Because yielding only males is an evolutionary/reproductive dead-end.

[danielxcutter]

Many (most?) hymenopterans have a haplodiploid caste determination, meaning almost any female can theoretically, under some circumstances, lay viable eggs (which only yield males).

The Slaad system would rather be something more akin to thelytoky. Because yielding only males is an evolutionary/reproductive dead-end.

Uh... think I failed a Knowledge(nature) check there. Or is that Knowledge(the planes)?

[Clistenes]

They wipe the memories of ALL the Outsiders?! That's a lot of mindwipes!

I guess they mindwipe the petitioners too, to avoid the forbidden knowledge spilling around... That must be confusing, to be a steampunk talking animal or a living slice of pizza and not knowing where you come from...

[Larre Gannd]

My prediction: They've been travelling the astral plane for a while, now!

May or may not be Hylgia, but I'm still keeping my bet on Durkon not returning before the council vote is resolved.

Hm. I feel like Durkon wouldn’t have said that the exarch has some tricks up his sleeve that he knows Roy isn’t prepared for, unless he would come back in time to help.

But who knows; we’ll find out soon.

[Themrys]

Many (most?) hymenopterans have a haplodiploid caste determination, meaning almost any female can theoretically, under some circumstances, lay viable eggs (which only yield males).

The Slaad system would rather be something more akin to thelytoky. Because yielding only males is an evolutionary/reproductive dead-end.

I'd have mentioned aphids, I just couldn't temporarily not think of the English word for them.

Anyway, since I like to be right: http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/thelytoky.html

Some bees can do that!

But my original point was that Slaad have to be an all-female race, reproducing by parthenogenesis. A spawn who immediately lays an egg in the nurse can't be male even if they were like most honey bees and needed males to produce female eggs.

And according to what was explained, there's three different colours of Slaad, two of which can reproduce by parthenogenesis while the third doesn't play a role in the reproductive system at all. (I guess that one has the same role as female worker bees in a hive with a queen)

[Fyraltari]

I'd have mentioned aphids, I just couldn't temporarily not think of the English word for them.

Anyway, since I like to be right: http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/thelytoky.html

Some bees can do that!

But my original point was that Slaad have to be an all-female race, reproducing by parthenogenesis. A spawn who immediately lays an egg in the nurse can't be male even if they were like most honey bees and needed males to produce female eggs.

And according to what was explained, there's three different colours of Slaad, two of which can reproduce by parthenogenesis while the third doesn't play a role in the reproductive system at all. (I guess that one has the same role as female worker bees in a hive with a queen)

If the whole species reproduces by parthenogenesis, is there really a point to labelling them male or female?

Edit: Besides, for all we know the Deva kept in touch with the baby and is respecting his wishes by using male pronouns.

[MADCrab]

If the whole species reproduces by parthenogenesis, is there really a point to labelling them male or female?

Edit: Besides, for all we know the Deva kept in touch with the baby and is respecting his wishes by using male pronouns.


In reality? Yes. Females have eggs, males have sperm. The gametes work very differently. Parthenogenesis works by a failure of meiosis in egg formation - a similar failure in sperm does not leave a viable cell.


Of course, it's overthinking things in a dnd web comic.

[Themrys]

In reality? Yes. Females have eggs, males have sperm. The gametes work very differently. Parthenogenesis works by a failure of meiosis in egg formation - a similar failure in sperm does not leave a viable cell.


Of course, it's overthinking things in a dnd web comic.

It is not overthinking if it takes me less than a second to arrive at that conclusion because it is just that obvious.

Not like you have to think very hard about which sex a being that can lay eggs might be.

If the Deva had said "It" that wouldn't have confused me, but "he" is just too much.

[ShurikVch]

Edit: come to think of it, is the spawn of a Slaad and a Deva just 100% pure Slaad, or some kind of Celestial Slaad?My bet is on a mutation from the Slaadi Chaotic Variations:
91
Working wings
Fly 30 ft. (clumsy)That external similarity (the presence of wings), may, probably, make it easier for the Deva "parent" to relate with the "child"

Also, possible the Graced from Outside Unique NPC Ability (Dungeon Master's Guide II)

[Fyraltari]

In reality? Yes. Females have eggs, males have sperm. The gametes work very differently. Parthenogenesis works by a failure of meiosis in egg formation - a similar failure in sperm does not leave a viable cell.


Of course, it's overthinking things in a dnd web comic.

My bad, I confused parthenogenesis with mitosis.
so do we know they use parthenogenesis? They could simply clone themselves by injecting stem cells into the host body, for example.

[JumboWheat01]

"If'n ye ever find yerself drinkin' wit a dwarf named Tenrin..."

Aren't dwarven names property of the clan and used/reused frequently enough? How many Tenrin will there be drinking?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

so do we know they use parthenogenesis? They could simply clone themselves by injecting stem cells into the host body, for example.

They don't. As Thanatosia described above, red slaad implants become blue slaads. Blue Slaads don't implant, but give you a sickness that turns you into a red slaad. Either can under special circumstances create green slaads (if they implant/infect a spellcaster), who then go on to pokemon-eveolve through a whole rainbow of slaad types.

In short, they are avatars of chaos. They sneer at regular reproductive practices. And pronouns. And everything else, really.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

"If'n ye ever find yerself drinkin' wit a dwarf named Tenrin..."

Aren't dwarven names property of the clan and used/reused frequently enough? How many Tenrin will there be drinking?

She already knows Durkon's name is Thundershield, and she knows Sigdi as well. Finding the guy wouldn't be hard.

[Larre Gannd]

She already knows Durkon's name is Thundershield, and she knows Sigdi as well. Finding the guy wouldn't be hard.

I would say that recognizing that he is Durkon’s father wouldn’t be hard. However, I doubt Minrah would just stumble upon Tenrin super easily.

[AutomatedTeller]

Good comic!

I liked Minrah's "I swore I would take that secret to the grave and I guess I did" line.

I think we still have the exarch to deal with, but I suppose Rich could deal with that with a throwaway line like he did V's exciting adventures in the semi-elemental plane of ranch dressing.

[Kish]

According to the story I read, it was pretty cold-blooded.
How cold-blooded would you call Roy in panel one here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html)?

'Cause you know, those goblins had done way less to establish "I'm a moral monster!" than Crystal had even going on online-only content.

That deva is clearly male. That's the joke.


Very minor nitpick: Aren't Slaad an all-female race? They apparently can lay viable eggs without any contribution by a male, an ability I only know from bees (female bees, mind), so the "baby" couldn't be a "he" ... of course, the Deva may not have known that and still think having an egg laid inside him by a Slaad is pregnancy. (Can Devas intentionally lie? If there's just rules against lying to souls, I guess he'd get a free pass for not wanting to traumatize Durkon.)
Men claimed for a long time that their sperm was "seed", i.e. complete, which it is not, and still do so in language, so perhaps he just doesn't understand that for a real pregnancy, he'd have to have an egg. (Or he is just compartementalizing his extremely traumatic experience.)


They don't. As Thanatosia described above, red slaad implants become blue slaads. Blue Slaads don't implant, but give you a sickness that turns you into a red slaad.
Which would mean that the deva is pregnant with a blue slaad, who doesn't have eggs. "He" pronoun more appropriate than it would be for a red slaad, anyway.

[mjasghar]

Oh boy. That title had me worried, like he was going to be put back into the vampires head, hence the title "headed back".

Unless hilgya is for some reason resurrecting a vampire, but I doubt it now. I am a bit bummed that we never did get that good vampire durkon, but maybe we will see one later on down the road, albeit not durkon but another vampire who turned to the side of good.

is there a spell you can use to ressurect a vampire? Not that I think she's doing that, but now I'm curious.
There are ways to resurrect undead as the undead they were but usually require clerics of death gods - and it’s unclear in OoTS world how that interacts with the captive soul or is even available
In many other settings the original soul has passed on anyway and the undead spirit is using brain memory- but in OoTS it captures the soul
Now in the 3 pantheons we have seen 2 have evil gods of death - with Hel tending to the more Evil whilst Nergal seems to emphasise the Lawful (but still definitely evil)
That leaves Southern Pantheon and one of the 12 to be in charge of death who is presumably evil, but maybe they share responsibility the same way they do with the Paladins

[Fyraltari]

Now in the 3 pantheons we have seen 2 have evil gods of death - with Hel tending to the more Evil whilst Nergal seems to emphasise the Lawful (but still definitely evil)

Err, we have never, to my knowledge, seen Nergal, except in statue once (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html), where Malack make a case for him being Neutral. So I'm not sure how you got Lawful Evil.

[Larre Gannd]

Err, we have never, to my knowledge, seen Nergal, except in statue once (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html), where Malack make a case for him being Neutral. So I'm not sure how you got Lawful Evil.

Malack was pretty clearly evil, so my guess would be that Nergal is too, and it was just Malack trying to mislead Durkon with half truths.

[Fyraltari]

Malack was pretty clearly evil, so my guess would be that Nergal is too, and it was just Malack trying to mislead Durkon with half truths.
Neutral gods can have Evil clerics, can't they?
Mislead to what purpose? Malack was genuine in his befriending of Durkon.

[Kish]

Neutral gods can have Evil clerics, can't they?
Mislead to what purpose? Malack was genuine in his befriending of Durkon.
"You know, neither gods of Death nor their clerics are necessarily Evil. That's a common misconception. If anything, Neutrality suits them better," said the Lawful Evil cleric of Nergal planning a program of genocide for the entire continent.

You're arguing that there was no intended deception there?

[Keltest]

"You know, neither gods of Death nor their clerics are necessarily Evil. That's a common misconception. If anything, Neutrality suits them better," said the Lawful Evil cleric of Nergal planning a program of genocide for the entire continent.

You're arguing that there was no intended deception there?

In what way does Malack personally being evil affect his greater point? Presumably there are many schools of thought about Nergal, given that he seems to have legitimate worship and reverence (as opposed to, say, Hel, who apparently only ever managed to coerce and threaten that respect out of mortals).

[hroþila]

In what way does Malack personally being evil affect his greater point? Presumably there are many schools of thought about Nergal, given that he seems to have legitimate worship and reverence (as opposed to, say, Hel, who apparently only ever managed to coerce and threaten that respect out of mortals).
His greater point regarding Death gods might be correct, but he was planning his genocidal-scale slaughter as a direct tribute to Nergal, so unless Malack was utterly confused about how his god rolls I think it's more likely than not that he's Evil. I think that's too big to put it down as mere doctrinal nuances within a theologically diverse church.

[Peelee]

In what way does Malack personally being evil affect his greater point?

Hos point is to hide the fact that he's evil. That he hides it in a completely true statement just means that he's good at equivocation, not that he's making a case for anything.

[Gift Jeraff]

Malack wasn't just any cleric, he was a high priest which Book 6 has pretty strongly established as a singular, highest ranking within a god's church, to the point that they literally stand in for their god. Even if Rich is playing loose with the cleric alignment rules, I imagine high priests have, for the most part, identical alignment to their masters. Exceptions would be cases like Hel where she can't really be picky.

Alright. Not a thing that I expected. I thought sure Hilgya would just spit on the corpse-dust and walk away.
On the other hand, maybe she just wants to personally murdalize him, instead of settling for Belkar doing the deed.
On the third hand, ... I've run out of hands.
Other possibilities: A) She realized something was up when Vampire Durkon gave her Kudzu and let himself be slain. B) Bringing back Durkon robs him of Valhalla and increases his odds of going to Hel.

[factotum]

They wipe the memories of ALL the Outsiders?! That's a lot of mindwipes!

I guess they mindwipe the petitioners too, to avoid the forbidden knowledge spilling around... That must be confusing, to be a steampunk talking animal or a living slice of pizza and not knowing where you come from...

They don't need to mindwipe the petitioners because those will have already merged with their afterlife planes by the time the next world gets created--the planet creation process takes centuries, according to the dialogue in earlier strips.

[Roland Itiative]

come to think of it, is the spawn of a Slaad and a Deva just 100% pure Slaad, or some kind of Celestial Slaad? Could it have been 100% Deva or 100% Slaad but not 50% of each?
Half-Celestial, yet Chaotic... The spawn is clearly Haley.

[Keltest]

Hos point is to hide the fact that he's evil. That he hides it in a completely true statement just means that he's good at equivocation, not that he's making a case for anything.

Really? Because im pretty sure that his intent at the time is just to have a theological discussion with a fellow cleric, one who he has no intent of coming into conflict with in the immediate future.

[Fyraltari]

"You know, neither gods of Death nor their clerics are necessarily Evil. That's a common misconception. If anything, Neutrality suits them better," said the Lawful Evil cleric of Nergal planning a program of genocide for the entire continent.

You're arguing that there was no intended deception there?

The only intended deception (that we know of) is that Malack himself would be one of those Non-evil Clerics, which he isn't.
That doesn't make his point wrong. Neutrality does suit death-themed gods better than Evil.

I can see Nergal being Evil, but we don't have evidence for that.

Malack was planning to create a continent-spanning theocracy dedicated to Nergal that would commit sacrifices in an "orderly regime of destruction" where before there were only a multitude of warring ephemereal kingdoms. The strip where he describes his plan is even called "Calm, Orderly, Efficient (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0875.html)", I can see a Lawful Neutral deity sponsoring that regime for the greater Law of everyone on the Western Continent.

I can also see, and if Nergal is Neutral, that would be more likely, I think, a Lawful Neutral deity not bothering to correct* his LE servant on what an ideal society would be to him (after all Malack's empire was still a distant dream when he died. Hell Nergal might have expected the world to end before that) as long as he is motivated to take part in a scheme that is actually bringing Order, if slowly, to the Western Continent.

If you want to argue that Nergal is definitely Evil, you need evidence, like a clear statement of Nergal being evil, Malack casting something that only Evil gods can grant or the like.
For example, is it said anywhere that only Evil gods accept human sacrifices?


*If he can, we've seen that there isn't that much communication between gods and worshippers, c.f. Thor, the Dwarves and the trees.

[Peelee]

Really? Because im pretty sure that his intent at the time is just to have a theological discussion with a fellow cleric, one who he has no intent of coming into conflict with in the immediate future.

Indeed, and not knowing how evangelical this Lawful Good cleric is, hiding that he is Evil works towards the intent of not coming into conflict, similar to hiding that he is a vampire. Again, hiding it behind irrelevant but completely true statements just means he's good at equivocation.


Malack was planning to create a continent-spanning theocracy dedicated to Nergal that would commit sacrifices in an "orderly regime of destruction" where before there were only a multitude of warring ephemereal kingdoms. The strip where he describes his plan is even called "Calm, Orderly, Efficient (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0875.html)", I can see a Lawful Neutral deity sponsoring that regime for the greater Law of everyone on the Western Continent.

I disagree that a Lawful Neutral god would be fine with sponsoring continual mass slaughter so long as it was Lawful enough.

[Fyraltari]

I disagree that a Lawful Neutral god would be fine with sponsoring continual mass slaughter so long as it was Lawful enough.

I mean, Neutral Ganji and Enor are fine with delivering people to slave-driven dictatorship and using lethal force on people for the crime of asking questions while Neutral Therkla is fine with helping her daimyo lauch attacks on their own countrymen (including wivilians during a wedding) in a bid for power, so I get the impression Neutrals can get away with a lot without being evil.

[Peelee]

I mean, Neutral Ganji and Enor are fine with delivering people to slave-driven dictatorship and using lethal force on people for the crime of asking questions while Neutral Therkla is fine with helping her daimyo lauch attacks on their own countrymen (including wivilians during a wedding) in a bid for power, so I get the impression Neutrals can get away with a lot without being evil.

Yes, but I wouldn't say that Gannji, Enor, or Therkla would approve of a holocaust.

[Kish]

"Lawful Neutral deities permit atrocities" is pretty much implicit in "Lawful Neutral deities regularly have Lawful Evil clerics." If a god wasn't willing to support mass slaughter, that leads to a situation where a Lawful Neutral deity is happy to supply power to Lawful Evil clerics, making them more likely to succeed at their plans, as long as they aren't too successful...and if you're doing that, it makes more sense to just St. Cuthbert it and say "this particular Lawful Neutral god has no evil clerics."

(That said, there's no reason at all to think Nergal isn't evil without, for some reason, treating the half of a statement which hasn't been explicitly proven to be deceptive as gospel. So to speak.)

[Roland Itiative]

Yes, but I wouldn't say that Gannji, Enor, or Therkla would approve of a holocaust.
Well, V pretty much single-handedly pulled one off (the power didn't come from him, but the decision to use it was his own), without making the jump to Evil alignment. OotS seems to follow the "neutral can go to both extremes to fit their needs, but don't get any real fulfillment from good/evil/law/chaos actions by themselves, just the benefits the actions provide" interpretation.

[Fyraltari]

Yes, but I wouldn't say that Gannji, Enor, or Therkla would approve of a holocaust.
First, points for the literal use of holocaust. :smallcool:
Second, we don't know Nergal would approve of it either, while Malack seem to believe he would it should be noted that
A) Clerics can be wrong about what their gods approve and
B) Malack and his vampire ruling class would need to kill hundreds of people daily anyway, so why not dedicate them to Nergal?
C) Ganji, enor and Therkla don't have any responsabilties. As a god Negal does. This encourages the "omelette" mindset. Or in the words of Shojo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html) "You have to understand... in order to do what is best for the entire [continent], I sometimes need to take... unpopular actions". Of course Shojo was Good, so the worse he did was rigging trials, being emotionnally abusive, going back on his oath and violating people's habeas corpus.

"Lawful Neutral deities permit atrocities" is pretty much implicit in "Lawful Neutral deities regularly have Lawful Evil clerics."

(That said, there's no reason at all to think Nergal isn't evil without, for some reason, treating the half of a statement which hasn't been explicitly proven to be deceptive as gospel. So to speak.)
"There is no reason to think he isn't evil" is a terrible reason to think he is. I don't know wether he is Evil or Neutral, if someone has evidence, I'll accept it, but nothing conclusive has been offered in either way.

[Priceguy]

Malack wasn't just any cleric, he was a high priest

Where did we learn that? I don't remember it.

[Kish]

"There is no reason to think he isn't evil" is a terrible reason to think he is. I don't know wether he is Evil or Neutral, if someone has evidence, I'll accept it, but nothing conclusive has been offered in either way.
I get that. I just don't want Peelee thinking I'm anywhere close to being there with you just because I point out the implications of a generic not-Nergal Lawful Neutral god having Lawful Evil clerics.

[Fyraltari]

I get that. I just don't want Peelee thinking I'm anywhere close to being there with you just because I point out the implications of a generic not-Nergal Lawful Neutral god having Lawful Evil clerics.
Carry on then.

[Peelee]

Well, V pretty much single-handedly pulled one off (the power didn't come from him, but the decision to use it was his own), without making the jump to Evil alignment.
A.) I disagree with the conclusion.
B.) Even assuming the conclusion is correct, a one-time act is still different from a continual act (and, as Malack is undead, a planned-for-eternity continual act, at that).

First, points for the literal use of holocaust. :smallcool:
Second, we don't know Nergal would approve of it either, while Malack seem to believe he would it should be noted that
A) Clerics can be wrong about what their gods approve and
B) Malack and his vampire ruling class would need to kill hundreds of people daily anyway, so why not dedicate them to Nergal?
C) Ganji, enor and Therkla don't have any responsabilties. As a god Negal does. This encourages the "omelette" mindset. Or in the words of Shojo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html) "You have to understand... in order to do what is best for the entire [continent], I sometimes need to take... unpopular actions". Of course Shojo was Good, so the worse he did was rigging trials, being emotionnally abusive, going back on his oath and violating people's habeas corpus.

"There is no reason to think he isn't evil" is a terrible reason to think he is. I don't know wether he is Evil or Neutral, if someone has evidence, I'll accept it, but nothing conclusive has been offered in either way.

First, thanks! Its a good word in the right context. Very evocative, even without the historical significance.

Second,
A) True, but I would expect more from a high priest.
B) I was under the impression they would be killing significantly more than what they need to feast on.
C) Fixing trials and violating habeus corpus strike me as more Lawful/Chaotic than Good/Evil, especially when looking at the desired result of doing those things.

I get that. I just don't want Peelee thinking I'm anywhere close to being there with you just because I point out the implications of a generic not-Nergal Lawful Neutral god having Lawful Evil clerics.

I didnt.

[MADCrab]

How cold-blooded would you call Roy in panel one here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html)?

'Cause you know, those goblins had done way less to establish "I'm a moral monster!" than Crystal had even going on online-only content.

Well....

Isn't "Goblins got the short end of the stick in being classified as always-justified targets" kinda a major plot point?

[Peelee]

Well....

Isn't "Goblins got the short end of the stick in being classified as always-justified targets" kinda a major plot point?

At least some paladins fell for the raid on Redcloak's village, so I wouldn't say "always-justified."

[Keltest]

Well....

Isn't "Goblins got the short end of the stick in being classified as always-justified targets" kinda a major plot point?

As I recall, the grievance was "goblins are forced to choose between acting in such a way as they become legitimate targets or starve", not "there is a huge moral double standard when it comes to killing goblinoids."

Now, some groups might have that double standard, such as the Sapphire Guard, but it arises due to the callousness of the groups and the existence of the real problem TDO wants corrected. Its not an inherent function of the setting.

[Fyraltari]

First, thanks! Its a good word in the right context. Very evocative, even without the historical significance.
"Hecatomb" works too, when you don't want the subtext crushing your meaning.


Second,
A) True, but I would expect more from a high priest.
Is Malack even the high priest? I honestly can't recall.

B) I was under the impression they would be killing significantly more than what they need to feast on.
Well, that rather depends on how many vampires that ruling class of his (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14808225&postcount=145) would be made of and how often and how much a vampire needs to feed (jusging by Durkon*, at least once a day). 1,000 people is 6,000 liters of blood, and I cannot see class ruling a continent without at least numbering in the thousands.

C) Fixing trials and violating habeus corpus strike me as more Lawful/Chaotic than Good/Evil, especially when looking at the desired result of doing those things.
Roy calls it "personal violation" once and making Hinjo belive his uncle had gone mad is an evil action. More to the point, Shojo openly agrees that "the end justifies the means" and justifies his actions with the half-million citizens he is responsible for.

[Roland Itiative]

A.) I disagree with the conclusion.
B.) Even assuming the conclusion is correct, a one-time act is still different from a continual act (and, as Malack is undead, a planned-for-eternity continual act, at that).
Oh, I was not trying to argue for Malack being possibly Neutral, I should have made that clear. He's definitely as Evil as they come. But I do think Hilgya could be Neutral (even though I'd still put my money on her being Evil too, due to the lack of redeemable actions shown on-panel), which was the original discussion. Reading through the whole thing at once made me not realise the shift :P

[Kish]

Well....

Isn't "Goblins got the short end of the stick in being classified as always-justified targets" kinda a major plot point?
I'm not seeing the relevance. Your expressed negative view of Haley's actions wasn't a plot point.

[Peelee]

"Hecatomb" works too, when you don't want the subtext crushing your meaning.


Is Malack even the high priest? I honestly can't recall.

Oooh, New word! Also, yep (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0719.html). I'll get to the rest when I have more time.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I cannot see class ruling a continent without at least numbering in the thousands.

Really? Usually military dictatorships manage with a handful of generals. Hundreds, maybe, if you include their direct reporting staff (although they aren't ruling class), but there is not reason for the vampires to only have vampires working in the middle rungs.

Heck, the continent as it is is ruled by about a dozen people, including the patsies on the thrones.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

Really? Usually military dictatorships manage with a handful of generals. Hundreds, maybe, if you include their direct reporting staff (although they aren't ruling class), but there is not reason for the vampires to only have vampires working in the middle rungs.

Heck, the continent as it is is ruled by about a dozen people, including the patsies on the thrones.

Grey Wolf

If by "the continent" you mean "a third of the inhabited part of the desert (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html), which itself is only about two thirds of the landmass."

[Fyraltari]

Really? Usually military dictatorships manage with a handful of generals. Hundreds, maybe, if you include their direct reporting staff (although they aren't ruling class), but there is not reason for the vampires to only have vampires working in the middle rungs.

Heck, the continent as it is is ruled by about a dozen people, including the patsies on the thrones.

Grey Wolf

Ruling class and government are two different things.

[Ruck]

"You know, neither gods of Death nor their clerics are necessarily Evil. That's a common misconception. If anything, Neutrality suits them better," said the Lawful Evil cleric of Nergal planning a program of genocide for the entire continent.

You're arguing that there was no intended deception there?

I'll add to that: Why wouldn't Malack just say "Nergal isn't Evil" if he wasn't Evil, instead of going to all the trouble to equivocate in the fashion he does?

[Fyraltari]

I'll add to that: Why wouldn't Malack just say "Nergal isn't Evil" if he wasn't Evil, instead of going to all the trouble to equivocate in the fashion he does?

Because Malack likes to sound smart?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Ruling class and government are two different things.

Which is precisely my point. I cannot think of any ruling class numbering in the thousands for any RL continent-wide empires. Government, bureaucracy, yes. Actual ruling class? Nowhere near that many. Power can only be divided so much and military dictatorships exist to centralize power, not dilute it.

ETA: OK, I think the equivocation here is that by "ruling class" I think you mean "individuals technically capable of being granted power", rather than what I mean, "clique of individuals and their families in power". So in the Roman Republic, you'd classify all rich people "ruling class" where I would only classify the actual families realistically vying for control of the Senate the ruling class. Not everyone that could afford to be part of the Senate had an actual chance of becoming a Consul. I only consider potential consuls the ruling class of Roman Republic - a few families at best, the richest of the rich.

ETA2: and we need a different example from that, I've just realised. Ummm... In ASoI&F, to me their ruling class is the seven families or thereabouts in control of the continent, whereas I think you'd consider all great houses the ruling class - or maybe even all nobles?

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Which is precisely my point. I cannot think of any ruling class numbering in the thousands for any RL continent-wide empires. Government, bureaucracy, yes. Actual ruling class? Nowhere near that many. Power can only be divided so much and military dictatorships exist to centralize power, not dilute it.

ETA: OK, I think the equivocation here is that by "ruling class" I think you mean "individuals technically capable of being granted power", rather than what I mean, "clique of individuals and their families in power". So in the Roman Republic, you'd classify all rich people "ruling class" where I would only classify the actual families realistically vying for control of the Senate the ruling class. Not everyone that could afford to be part of the Senate had an actual chance of becoming a Consul. I only consider potential consuls the ruling class of Roman Republic - a few families at best, the richest of the rich.

Grey Wolf
I was precisely trying to find out the exact number of patricians under the Roman Republic.

Edit for your Edit. Yes, the Westerosi nobles are a ruling class, from Littlefinger's poorer than dirt father to the King. Basically, to me, a ruling class contains the people in positions of power, from the middle-level to the top.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I was precisely trying to find out the exact number of patricians under the Roman Republic.

Real world politics, so lets steer away from that. But be aware that when patricians were the only ones that could be elected Consul, the Roman Republic was not in control of the continent. Still, I think that alone proves that we are talking completely different groups, so now I get why you say thousands.

Grey Wolf

[Gift Jeraff]

Where did we learn that? I don't remember it.

Hmm, apparently our only direct sources are the first panel here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0719.html) (which seems to imply he's "the high priest to the Empress") and Tarquin saying "Buy one High Priest, get one General free." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html) Still, we see that Malack's garb is standard for clerics of Nergal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0735.html) and no one is dressed like that at the Western Godsmoot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html), which I take as indicating that Nergal got screwed out of a vote due to Malack's untimely demise. Though I'll concede it's not 100% established that Malack was the High Priest of Nergal.

[Skull the Troll]

OH man, they wipe the outsiders? I wonder how many times poor Celia has had to go to law school?

[Gift Jeraff]

OH man, they wipe the outsiders? I wonder how many times poor Celia has had to go to law school?

Fortunately, Celia's only 22 years old according to the War & XPs cast section.

[Fyraltari]

here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0719.html)
I love how Elan was right about Malack spewing his stuff in the middle of an action scene.

Real world politics, so lets steer away from that. But be aware that when patricians were the only ones that could be elected Consul, the Roman Republic was not in control of the continent. Still, I think that alone proves that we are talking completely different groups, so now I get why you say thousands.

Grey Wolf
For the record, I consider a "class" to be a relatively large segment of society as in the traditionnal lower/middle/upper class division, and a "ruling class" to be defined in terms of how much wealth/power/influence you have relative to the general population rather than your chances to become head of state.

[Resileaf]

The Outsider memory-wipe comment explains why the IFCC has no idea about the previous worlds despite having that ancient evil vibe.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

For the record, I consider a "class" to be a relatively large segment of society as in the traditionnal lower/middle/upper class division, and a "ruling class" to be defined in terms of how much /welath/power/influence you have relative to the general population rather than your chances to become head of state.

Yeah, I guessed. I disagree, but once I understood what you meant, the comment about thousands made sense, and attempting to hash out why I think your use of the term is overbroad would a) require more politics than is healthy for either of us and 2) OT and iii) ultimately a "my dictionary is better than your dictionary" discussion which is a waste of time.

Grey Wolf

[Pablo360]

With regards to Malack's debated position as High Priest of Nergal: Are “high priest of a god” and “high priest of a nation, who serves a specific god” the same thing? Because in both given examples, Malack's high-priestliness seems to be in relevance to a political power, not Nergal themself.

[The_Weirdo]

Hilgya may be going about this whole "kill him" thing wrong.

[Pablo360]

Hilgya may be going about this whole "kill him" thing wrong.

No, she's doing it exactly right. She can't kill him if he's dead, after all. Also I'm like the twelfth person to make this joke, and I'm not entirely sure if it's actually a joke.

[Resileaf]

With regards to Malack's debated position as High Priest of Nergal: Are “high priest of a god” and “high priest of a nation, who serves a specific god” the same thing? Because in both given examples, Malack's high-priestliness seems to be in relevance to a political power, not Nergal themself.

I don't think Malack is the high priest of Nergal myself. The Godsmoot was called... What, a few days after his death? Maybe even the moment the gate exploded? There would have been no time to name a new high priest.

[Fyraltari]

I don't think Malack is the high priest of Nergal myself. The Godsmoot was called... What, a few days after his death? Maybe even the moment the gate exploded? There would have been no time to name a new high priest.

I don't think Nergal not having a representative would have been cause for the Godsmoot not to happen. They didn't stop for Hel, did they?
Edit:

Yeah, I guessed. I disagree, but once I understood what you meant, the comment about thousands made sense, and attempting to hash out why I think your use of the term is overbroad would a) require more politics than is healthy for either of us and 2) OT and iii) ultimately a "my dictionary is better than your dictionary" discussion which is a waste of time.

Grey Wolf
Right by me. What is "OT"?

[Ruck]

Because Malack likes to sound smart?

Alternately, one other thing he learned from Tarquin was how to tell technical truths in a deceptive and misleading manner.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't think Nergal not having a representative would have been cause for the Godsmoot not to happen.

Fyraltari, that is way too many negations for an English sentence, and it is giving me a headache just to try and parse it, and I know what you mean. I'm guessing it'd work in French?


What is "OT"?
"Off Topic"

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Alternately, one other thing he learned from Tarquin was how to tell technical truths in a deceptive and misleading manner.

So? You can't use "this character lies sometime and used a convolutedturn of phrase here" as proof of the opposite of what the character is saying.

Edit:

Fyralyti, that is way too many negations for an English sentence, and it is giving me a headache just to try and parse it, and I know what you mean. I'm guessing it'd work in French?


"Off Topic"

Grey Wolf

It's technically correct in French but that's mostly because I, myself, often writes stuff too convoluted.

Hmm... "I think Nergal's lack of a high priest would have been insufficient ground for his divine colleagues to delay their Moot as they have never done so for Hel"
Better?

Thank you.

[Pablo360]

I don't think Malack is the high priest of Nergal myself. The Godsmoot was called... What, a few days after his death? Maybe even the moment the gate exploded? There would have been no time to name a new high priest.

Counterpoint: What if Nergal's priesthood is a frontarchy? OOTS frontarchies have demonstrated a very short naming process for high priesthood.

More generally though, if there is an actual order of succession (which there may be), then a new High Priest would be appointed as soon as Malack died —*or at least an acting High Priest until the official procedure would have time to take place. There have been countless worlds, the gods probably have a way to deal with an emergency godsmoot being called right after a high priest dies; this can't be the first time something like this has happened.

But the structural hierarchy of Nergal's priesthood is only tenuously connected to Malack's status in that hierarchy, which is only tenuously connected to Nergal's alignment, which is not even remotely connected to the strip and I have forgotten what we were talking about before. Something about Hilgya's alignment? I don't even know anymore.

[Ruck]

So? You can't use "this character lies sometime and used a convolutedturn of phrase here" as proof of the opposite of what the character is saying.

This isn't a court of law. I don't need hard evidence beyond a reasonable doubt to make up my mind. The fact that Malack deliberately avoided saying Nergal wasn't Evil, while using a lot of obfuscating language to make it seem like he said Nergal wasn't Evil, is a pretty significant point to me that Nergal is probably Evil.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

this can't be the first time something like this has happened.

Indeed it has not - as Fyraltari convolutedly pointed out, Godsmoot happen without Hel's high priest all the time. I'd imagine that any High Priest who doesn't have the levels to cast Summon Proxy also doesn't bother to attend, and that must happen every so often, given how few high-level characters this world holds.

Grey Wolf

[Pablo360]

Fyralyti, that is way too many negations for an English sentence, and it is giving me a headache just to try and parse it, and I know what you mean. I'm guessing it'd work in French?

I didn't fail to not misunderstand it.


Indeed it has not - as Fyraltari convolutedly pointed out, Godsmoot happen without Hel's high priest all the time. I'd imagine that any High Priest who doesn't have the levels to cast Summon Proxy also doesn't bother to attend, and that must happen every so often, given how few high-level characters this world holds.

Grey Wolf

I'm more thinking about a god who usually votes suddenly losing their high priest and not wanting to be screwed by circumstance; Hel is a different story.

[Resileaf]

Maybe it's possible that Malack was telling what he felt was a white lie because he didn't want to risk losing what he felt was a genuine friendship with Durkon? After all, Durkon is openly the loyal servant of Thor, and he might have thought that someone lawful good like him would immediately turn his friendship offers away. So he gave a comment to say "Well maybe my god might be evil but not necessarily, who knows?"
And from a conversation standpoint, Malack described his master Nergal immediately after Durkon made a weird outburst before regaining his composure and pointing out the statue, so Malack might have mistaken Durkon's dislike of the tea for being a dislike of the god's statue, therefore encouraging him to lie in an effort to keep Durkon from... Disagreeing strenuously with him.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I didn't fail to not misunderstand it.

You are all rotters and I hate you. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_VCnAgk2Grk&t=54)

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

This isn't a court of law. I don't need hard evidence beyond a reasonable doubt to make up my mind. The fact that Malack deliberately avoided saying Nergal wasn't Evil, while using a lot of obfuscating language to make it seem like he said Nergal wasn't Evil, is a pretty significant point to me that Nergal is probably Evil.

But you don't know that he delibaretely avoided saying that, you are imposing that interpretation on a statement that perfectly stands on its own. If Malack was deflecting a question like "Isn't Nergal evil, though?" you'd have a point, but that's not what is happening.

[Ruck]

But you don't know that he delibaretely avoided saying that, you are imposing that interpretation on a statement that perfectly stands on its own. If Malack was deflecting a question like "Isn't Nergal evil, though?" you'd have a point, but that's not what is happening.

You think it's just coincidence that he's talking to a Lawful Good cleric of Thor and is trying to obfuscate whether his god is Evil?

[Pablo360]

But you don't know that he delibaretely avoided saying that, you are imposing that interpretation on a statement that perfectly stands on its own. If Malack was deflecting a question like "Isn't Nergal evil, though?" you'd have a point, but that's not what is happening.

If I recall correctly, Malack was deflecting a question “like” that. Something along the lines of, “Isn't [worshippin' a God a' Death] a bit… evil?” EDIT: Never-thee-mind.

[Dausuul]

I'm curious what it is that breaks the minds of all the Outsiders. That, coupled with what happens to Odin, makes you really wonder about the stability of pretty much everyone who is immortal in the OOTSverse.
That line was interesting. There's no obvious reason to drop it in... which sends me looking for non-obvious reasons. I see a couple possibilities offhand:

1. The Monster in the Darkness is notorious for being unable to perceive the Gates. Perhaps this is because he has been mindwiped? If so, it would mean he's an outsider of some kind.

2. The fiends of the IFCC are also outsiders, and we remain in the dark (heh) about their plans for the Gates. Perhaps they've found a way to evade the mindwipe, and they anticipate being able to seize control when all the celestials are suffering from divinely-inflicted amnesia?

[Peelee]

I don't think Malack is the high priest of Nergal myself. The Godsmoot was called... What, a few days after his death? Maybe even the moment the gate exploded? There would have been no time to name a new high priest.

Naming a new high priest does not necessarily seem to be a lengthy process (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1017.html).


Well, that rather depends on how many vampires that ruling class of his (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14808225&postcount=145) would be made of and how often and how much a vampire needs to feed (jusging by Durkon*, at least once a day). 1,000 people is 6,000 liters of blood, and I cannot see class ruling a continent without at least numbering in the thousands.
Grey Wolf effectively made the arguments I was going to make for this.

Roy calls it "personal violation" once and making Hinjo belive his uncle had gone mad is an evil action. More to the point, Shojo openly agrees that "the end justifies the means" and justifies his actions with the half-million citizens he is responsible for.
And in context, all that says Chaotic, not Evil, to me. Giant's comments on Shojo vs. Tarquin are a good breakdown of why (though I'm aware not everyone agrees with that).

[Fyraltari]

You think it's just coincidence that he's talking to a Lawful Good cleric of Thor and is trying to obfuscate whether his god is Evil?
Again, you assert Malack is trying to obfuscate somzething when, to me he seems to just be pontificating.

If I recall correctly, Malack was deflecting a question “like” that. Something along the lines of, “Isn't [worshippin' a God a' Death] a bit… evil?”

You recall wrongly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html).

[Jay R]

And yet, they meet the requirements to have the half-celestial template applied. By the rules, it is perfectly possible to have a Slaad with the half-celestial template.

Yes, it is possible that a very unusual (unique) thing happened. There is no mention of a half-celestial slaad in any book I've seen. It is also possible that the simple attack of a slaad happened, exactly as described in the MM.

One of these is far more likely than the other.


What is this genetics of which you speak and how does it work in D&D land where a dragon and an ooze can make a lovely little baby half-dragon ooze.

Red herring duly noted.

Meanwhile, what was described is perfectly covered by the rules for egg-pellet attack.

[Pablo360]

And in context, all that says Chaotic, not Evil, to me. Giant's comments on Shojo vs. Tarquin are a good breakdown of why (though I'm aware not everyone agrees with that).

From where I'm standing, either way (a Good character being capable of such Evilness, or a character's Chaoticness manifesting so harshly) it's an equally-valid argument for Hilgya's being CN (or rather, not necessarily being CE).


You recall wrongly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html).

I stand corrected.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

From where I'm standing, either way (a Good character being capable of such Evilness, or a character's Chaoticness manifesting so harshly) it's an equally-valid argument for Hilgya's being CN (or rather, not necessarily being CE).

The issue is not so much the max level of evilness a character can be involved in, as to the max level of goodness that character is involved in. Neutral can either mean milquetoast actions that blip in neither side, or extremes on both cancelling each other out. Hilgya, as depicted in-comic, has done nothing but neutral and Evil actions, with nary a good one in sight. Attempted murder for offers of foot rubs. Contemplated burning down an entire clan hall (possibly not her own, depending on how you parse the bloody English language) just to secure a divorce. Driving her entire clan homeless as revenge for the actions of just a few members of the clan. Constant prayers for the location of a one-night-stand who she wants to murder for rejecting her advances. Plus of course assorted murders and the like of nameless individuals.

While at the same time, on the good column we have... what, precisely? What selfless acts can we count to counter all of the above? Heck, she even treats her own son as her property, to do with him as she wills.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

And in context, all that says Chaotic, not Evil, to me. Giant's comments on Shojo vs. Tarquin are a good breakdown of why....I kind of expected the banan-signal to be visual, like that spotlight with the Batman symbol; but it's more of a cinnamon scent with hints of vanilla and molasses....

Being Lawful in D&D means following a set of codes and rules—not obeying every law of every nation you ever find yourself in. As I've said before, when your paladin enters the evil Orc Warlord's swamp and starts killing orcs who are raiding a nearby human village, does he turn himself in to be tried by the Warlord for murder? No, because he doesn't recognize the Warlord's authority as a head of state. As far as he's concerned, that swamp belongs to the King whose nation it's in, regardless of what the orcs who live there think.

Likewise, if a paladin has a strict code of honor, they can easily view that as more important than secular laws. They might agree to obey laws when possible, just because it's a nice thing to do, but in the end, their calling to serve the Power of Good may cause them to break those laws in an emergency (an emergency like a pint-size psychopath on the loose). If they continue to follow their core belief of "lawfulness"—their honor code—then the single breaking of a secular law will not cause them to change alignment. It is a nonlawful act, yes, but one does NOT change alignment from one nonlawful act. Only a consistent pattern of behavior will shift alignment, and contrary to popular belief, only a true switch to a nonlawful alignment will cause a paladin to fall.


Finally, do chaotics have to buck societal trends. I'm sure a lot of Chaotic people are happy with how the government runs things.I don't think they need to, no. Look at Elan: as Chaotic as they come, but he obeys the law most of the time. The real issue is, how does a character respond when what they believe and what the government is doing don't agree?

...Tarquin created Order out of Chaos, Shojo created Chaos out of Order. They are exact opposites. Methodology is only part of the equation, and not even the most important part.

Instead of thinking about the end state and whether it was a stable government, think about the delta-v: Did the rule of law have more of a hold in Azure City at the end of Shojo's rule—compared to when he took office—or less? Clearly, less. Before Shojo ascended the throne, it is highly unlikely that his father ignored the rules that he found inconvenient, encouraged the nobles to blame each other for his unpopular edicts via an elaborate ruse, seized citizens of other countries on charges he knew to be false, and snuck around making secret policy behind the backs of even his own most trusted advisors. You can't separate the fact that his government fell apart when Shojo died, because that was a direct result of him kneecapping that government over the years so that it depended on him, personally. Shojo was handed a Lawful system and made it more Chaotic than it was before, so that only his own personal scheming was holding it together.

Then, look at Tarquin. Does the rule of law have more of a hold in the Western Continent today than it did before he and his allies came to power, or less? Clearly, more. Before Tarquin, small tribes and city-states warred with each other constantly, resulting in no civilized settled territories that would last more than a few years. To the point that people didn't even expect them to last anymore. Tarquin unified dozens of these small tribes into three coherent states, such that they have greater stability. If Tarquin died unceremoniously tomorrow, the whole thing might well keep on functioning indefinitely because the people barely even know he's involved beyond being a really good military leader. Tarquin was handed a Chaotic system and made it more Lawful than before.

But what you really seem to be having problems with is this idea that both used similar methods, to which I say: So what? Deception is not inherently Lawful or Chaotic. Unless you have sworn not to lie, specifically, a Lawful character can choose to deceive if it's the best option. Shojo and Tarquin both use trickery to achieve opposite results. Xykon and Dorukan both use arcane magic to achieve opposite results. Roy and Thog both hit people with big weapons to achieve opposite results. Tools are tools.

In the end, alignment is a murky cocktail of temperament, goals, actions, and results. There is no clearly defined formula for which of those counts the most. But self-image certainly matters, and Tarquin sees himself as a stabilizing influence on a land gripped by anarchy, while Shojo saw himself as putting one over on those uptight sticks-in-the-mud.

People keep making assertions like this, and they don't have any real relevance. "Instability" does not mean "civil war." It means, "uncertainty." Uncertainty can be resolved by conflict, or it can be resolved by reform. This idea that all governmental Chaos leads directly to warfare, and all warfare is evil, so therefore Chaotic rulership is evil is ridiculous.

If you take away the external threat of Xykon, the most likely outcome of Shojo's rule is that he dies (whether from Miko or old age), and the more Lawful Hinjo takes over. He reforms the system and the nobles either fall in line or get crushed by his much larger army. The only reason Kubota takes the risky actions he takes is because Hinjo has virtually no army anymore, and Kubota has no ancestral holdings to lose. It is a highly unusual vulnerability on Hinjo's part that certainly could not have been predicted by Shojo.

Further, this idea that Shojo "should have known" that his actions would lead to open rebellion is silly. They didn't. They led to 50+ years of prosperity, peppered with a few instances of violence against him. Which I'm sure he would argue was his risk to take. This is the whole point behind his final lines: He has no regrets over his actions, because he did it all for his people at the possible expense of his own safety or liberty should his transgressions be discovered.

I can't really wrap my head against this idea that his reign wasn't Good because the things he did could have lead to other people performing Evil acts at some vague future point, even though it didn't. The only way his rule would be non-Good is if there was no other outcome except for there to be an increase in Evil, AND he knew it. And we know that isn't the case because that's not what happened. Compare Tarquin, who knows that his rule will bring about more Evil the longer it continues because he and his evil cronies will be the ones committing it.

Alignment is not determined by what could have happened but didn't, or by what other people with free will may or may not choose to do in response. The fact that the nobles "could" have rebelled is not nearly as important as the fact that they did NOT rebel.


I'm so confused why people think what she did is chaotic. It isn't chaotic solely based on the fact that she acted in conjunction with law enforcement. Nothing else matters for that determination. Unless we later learn that said law enforcement officer was acting outside of their own legal authority, that is, then it would change the equation.

They think that because the D&D definition of Lawful has little to nothing to do with law enforcement. To think that Lawful always means "obeying the written law" is a gross misunderstanding of the D&D definition of the term.

For example, think of formal duels—the "pistols at dawn" kind. Such events are undoubtedly Lawful affairs—they have strict codes, elaborate rules, and concern themselves mostly with symbolic honor. All hallmarks of Lawful behavior when contrasted with, say, a drunken brawl. However, at the time Aaron Burr shot Hamilton, they were illegal in the United States. People who participated in such duels were abiding by a formal code of ethics and behavior that was in opposition to democratically passed law. Lawful behavior can be made illegal in a given jurisdiction, but that doesn't spontaneously change the nature of the act in a cosmological sense.

I've used this example before, but if a paladin walks into the orc's swamp to do battle, he is not suddenly bound to obey the Orc King's laws or lose his paladinhood. It is entirely possible to have a code that you believe supersedes the written law wherever you are and still be considered Lawful.

I've often said that a lot of confusion would have been avoided if they had simply called it Ordered instead of Lawful. "Ordered Good" leaves a lot less room for misinterpretation.



And of course, some of these ideas get muddled when the character is themselves responsible for creating the law, since the system was not really designed for characters that have that level of autonomy over civilization.

[Peelee]

From where I'm standing, either way (a Good character being capable of such Evilness, or a character's Chaoticness manifesting so harshly) it's an equally-valid argument for Hilgya's being CN (or rather, not necessarily being CE).
Well, Shojo never openly and directly attempted to murder an innocent person, to be fair.

[quotes]

♪Bananananananana Jasdoif!♫

[WolvesbaneIII]

The Deva says "she".


I don't think Thor would lose track of time, or waste it, seeing as he didn't know how long Durkon had.


Why Greysky City? It's in the opposite direction of where they want to go, and assuming Hilgya refused to resurect Durkon, there are still a boatload of Clerics of Thor in Firmament, and even assuming none of those can cast Resurection, High Priestess Rubyrock would be headed back there.

But most importantly, do people really think it plausible that Hilgya came back to the story with here and Durkon's baby, fought with the Order and just left without confronting Durkon once?

Thor is the god of thunder, not the god of time management lol

You should note I did say that hilgya is the default assumed position, and did you just assume the cleric of lokis gender from grey sky city?

[Themrys]

Is the goal of this discussion still to figure out whether Hilgya is evil?

What reasons do we have to believe that Hilgya is Evil with a capital E?

What atrocities has she committed?

How many slaves has she burnt, how many babies has she eaten?

She may not be a very moral person, but she sure isn't much committed to working for the Greater Evil, either. In fact, she thinks she's doing everyone a favour by spreading the word of Loki, so the work she usually does is Good, or at least she thinks so.

Chaotic Neutral, most likely.

No, a woman being angry with a man who got her pregnant and then left her doesn't make her evil. (And we don't yet have proof that Durkon won't be able to save his head by promising to pay child support)

As for Nergal, I don't know enough about D&D to figure out if Nergal has to be evil to accept evil followers who do evil in his name.

In The Dark Eye, there is a god of Death who accepts worshippers who murder (i.e. human sacrifice), but is equally happy with worshippers who content themselves with opposing necromancy and upholding proper burial customs. (My knowledge is a bit rusty, tho).
The gods there tend to mostly care about things that fall into their own domain. (There's only one goddess whose clerics are forbidden from killing anyone under any circumstances, for example, because life is sort of her thing.)

So perhaps Nergal isn't evil but just doesn't have a problem with people doing evil things in his name. (And I am not sure - did Malack suggest to only sacrifice criminals? In that case, that's not very different from a Paladin killing evil aligned goblins for a good-aligned god.)


Malack was very likely right about deities of death not always being evil. It certainly isn't the case in the real world.

[Peelee]

Is the goal of this discussion still to figure out whether Hilgya is evil?

What reasons do we have to believe that Hilgya is Evil with a capital E?

What atrocities has she committed?

How many slaves has she burnt, how many babies has she eaten?

She may not be a very moral person, but she sure isn't much committed to working for the Greater Evil, either. In fact, she thinks she's doing everyone a favour by spreading the word of Loki, so the work she usually does is Good, or at least she thinks so.

Chaotic Neutral, most likely.

No, a woman being angry with a man who got her pregnant and then left her doesn't make her evil. (And we don't yet have proof that Durkon won't be able to save his head by promising to pay child support)

That's certainly some commitment to ignoring Ivan.

[Fyraltari]

Thor is the god of thunder, not the god of time management lol
And?


You should note I did say that hilgya is the default assumed position
Yeah, 'cause none of the other make sense, be it in- or out-of-universe.

and did you just assume the cleric of lokis gender from grey sky city?

No. His childhood friend calls him a he (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html).
This is funny because at the time people thought the nameless Cleric of Loki should have been Hilgya, and now some people think Hilgya should be the nameless Cleric of Loki.

[Doug Lampert]

Yes, it is possible that a very unusual (unique) thing happened. There is no mention of a half-celestial slaad in any book I've seen. It is also possible that the simple attack of a slaad happened, exactly as described in the MM.

One of these is far more likely than the other.



Red herring duly noted.

Meanwhile, what was described is perfectly covered by the rules for egg-pellet attack.

I'm not the one who brought up genetics on a D&D discussion. The pellet attack description NEVER SPECIFIES that the gets nothing from the host. Quite the contrary, the determination of green or other color is exclusively made by the nature of the host, so claims that the host contributes nothing and is irrelevant to the nature of the offspring slaad are blatantly and completely false.

As for your lack of a half-celestial slaad, so what? I defy you to name a single example of a non-half-celestial slaad in any book specified clearly to have grown in a celestial that survived the experience of bearing the slaad.

[Peelee]

This is funny because at the time people thought the nameless Cleric of Loki should have been Hilgya, and now some people think Hilgya should be the nameless Cleric of Loki.

I vote that you win the forum for today.