Animal companion: on elemental archetype and grappling

[ezekielraiden]

Statting up an animal companion (big cat, tiger specifically) for a 17th level Druid and gave the archetypes a look-see. I didn't want to give up Share Spells if I could avoid it, so that knocked out most of the options. The Elemental companion, however, remained. And it looks like it could be pretty strong... I'm just not sure if it's worth the losses. Here's the page for it on AoN (http://www.aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Companion%20Elemen tal%20Companion). Briefly, you trade away evasion and multiattack to get a pair of abilities, based on the chosen element. It seems like Earth and Air are the strongest choices. Earth grants minor scaling DR/adamantine (not amazing, but might soothe the loss of evasion a bit) and natural attacks that count as adamantine, cold iron, and silver (a solid offense benefit when paired with magic fang). Air grants 20% miss chance vs. ranged attacks (meh, unless it affects spells too) and 20 ft flight speed (excellent, especially since it's flight without wings and can be enhanced by haste). So, what would people recommend if I'm hoping to have a decent-offense pouncer? Losing multiattack is not a problem as all of my kitty's attacks are primary attacks.

As a secondary thing; is it worthwhile trying to optimize an animal companion's grapple abilities? Big cats have grab on all three of their attacks and get rake attacks on every grappled foe, but it'd be nice to have a decent chance of maintaining a grapple without the animal herself being grappled, and that imposes a hefty -20 to the roll. I can almost certainly persuade the DM to let me have Improved Grapple etc., I'm just wondering if it's worthwhile or if I should focus the animal's feats elsewhere.

[Florian]

We´re talking about level 17 and an AC. The only thing that keeps the AC marginally useful at this point is Share Spells and that only as long as you're still engaging in more conventional combat instead of going into either full caster matches including BFC or blasting and entirely discarding that you could also play form-style 5D chess (which, I think, no one ever does).

So, basically, this is more a question about the main focus of your druid: Shapechanger or Caster? If you are planning on the later, drop the AC for the domain and additional spell slot at each level and you'll be happier.

On a Shapechanger, I´d still forgot any archetype because they don't really offer anything relevant in the late levels. Stick to a passive martial BFC build that doesn't rely on combat maneuvers, because most ACs are far outpaced at that point.

[ezekielraiden]

We´re talking about level 17 and an AC. The only thing that keeps the AC marginally useful at this point is Share Spells and that only as long as you're still engaging in more conventional combat instead of going into either full caster matches including BFC or blasting and entirely discarding that you could also play form-style 5D chess (which, I think, no one ever does).

So, basically, this is more a question about the main focus of your druid: Shapechanger or Caster? If you are planning on the later, drop the AC for the domain and additional spell slot at each level and you'll be happier.

On a Shapechanger, I´d still forgot any archetype because they don't really offer anything relevant in the late levels. Stick to a passive martial BFC build that doesn't rely on combat maneuvers, because most ACs are far outpaced at that point.

I appreciate the advice, and understand that an animal companion is less powerful than a domain especially at high level. However, I already have the companion and even if I was offered a switch to a domain by my DM, I don't think I would take it, as it doesn't mean with my concept. I'm mostly casting (using Dragon Wild Shape or Shapechange to turn into dragons) and the rest of my chassis is pretty optimized. I'm not concerned that having a ghost tiger is not bleeding-edge optimal, but rather what I should do given that I have a tiger companion who can grab for days.

I was less clear about that than I should have been, so thank you for the advice regardless.

[ezekielraiden]

Hoping for more input here. My google-fu failed to find any advice on companion archetypes, so I figure getting an answer helps more than just me.

Game's Saturday, so I guess I'll share my plan and see what feedback I get. 3.5e content is allowed alongside PF, but if they conflict, PF rules win unless specified; I'll note any 3.5 content used. Char is a gestalt Wizard|Druid/Planar Shepherd so spell slots are plentiful. 3.5e Persistent Spell (DM approved) + Sacred Geometry (ditto) = lots of low-cost permabuffs.

1. Big cat animal companion. Current stats: Str 28 Dex 20 Con 17 Int 3 Wis 15 Cha 10. Put 1 point into Int for feat qualification, the rest into Str.

2. Earth elemental companion archetype. Persisted master air (via share spells) gives better flight than Air anyway. Key question: is DR 5/adamantine + adamantine/cold iron/silver natural attacks better than Improved Evasion + (useless) Multiattack? AKA, is this archetype even worth taking, or should I just stick to a vanilla tiger?

3. Feats: Dodge, Weapon Focus (claws), Mobility, Improved Natural Attack (claws), Improved Grapple, Deadly Grapple, Greater Grapple
DM has approved INA(claws) as a substitute for IUS for grapple feat prerequisites. Dodge/Mobility to up defense and ease loss of (Improved) Evasion.
Key questions: is Power Attack a better idea than Mobility, or should I skip it to avoid the CMB penalty? For the final feat, is Pinning Rend (more damage) or Chokehold (better anti-caster lockdown) a better idea?

4. Spells: Mage armor, animal growth, master air, barkskin, resinous skin, greater magic fang (claw) probably bull's strength until I can buy/craft an item. Keep strong jaw on hand for when I need extra damage. Key question: Any good Wiz or Druid animal-buff spells I'm missing (from either PF or 3.5e)?

Result: high grapple CMB, nasty pounce damage. Huge size + Strong Jaw can mean Colossal damage with an x2 multiplier.

Strategy: pounce on casters to mess up spellcasting, or lock down one opponent so the group can focus on others.

[Ellrin]

As a 17th level druid, greater magic fang will give your companion a +4 enhancement bonus. That automatically overcomes all material-based DR (source (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities/#TOC-Overcoming-DR)), and I'd say an inherent flight speed is worth more than multiattack and evasion put together, especially if you want a grappler that can pick and choose targets. If you're dealing with enemies that care about avoiding teamkills, having your companion close with a target quickly is better protection than evasion, anyway.

[Second Arrow]

As a 17th level druid, greater magic fang will give your companion a +4 enhancement bonus. That automatically overcomes all material-based DR (source (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities/#TOC-Overcoming-DR)), and I'd say an inherent flight speed is worth more than multiattack and evasion put together, especially if you want a grappler that can pick and choose targets. If you're dealing with enemies that care about avoiding teamkills, having your companion close with a target quickly is better protection than evasion, anyway.

It would, if not for the fact that the PF version of the spell itself says otherwise (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/magic-fang/):

This spell functions like magic fang, except that the enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls is +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5). This bonus does not allow a natural weapon or unarmed strike to bypass damage reduction aside from magic.

As such, it makes the Elemental Companion (Earth) bonus quite handy for an animal companion that gets buffed by magic fang.

[Ellrin]

Ah, that's too bad. I sort of remembered a catch, but didn't think to check the spell text itself.

[ezekielraiden]

As a 17th level druid, greater magic fang will give your companion a +4 enhancement bonus. That automatically overcomes all material-based DR (source (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities/#TOC-Overcoming-DR)), and I'd say an inherent flight speed is worth more than multiattack and evasion put together, especially if you want a grappler that can pick and choose targets. If you're dealing with enemies that care about avoiding teamkills, having your companion close with a target quickly is better protection than evasion, anyway.

I generally agree on the flight speed. That said, master air is a 2nd level, share-able, persist-able 90' fly/good maneuverability. I've got a pearl of power if I need to cast it again. If opponents care enough to blow two dispels (at least!) on keeping my companion grounded, frankly I feel she'll be doing a fine job just sapping enemy resources/time. (And I don't need the spell myself; Geomancer wings + dragon wild shape means I can fly all the time anyway.)


It would, if not for the fact that the PF version of the spell itself says otherwise (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/magic-fang/):

As such, it makes the Elemental Companion (Earth) bonus quite handy for an animal companion that gets buffed by magic fang.

Ironically, I knew about neither of these rules, but their double absence cashes out to the same thing! That's a good point and leans me that much further to picking Earth.

Also, because of CL boosters, my "resting" CL is 19 without any buffs at all, and 20 with a once-every-two-days spell (extended create magic tattoo). So I can definitely give my companion +5 from GMF, and will probably permanency it when I have the cash.

Thank you both for chiming in!