Helping Warlocks stay relevant

[J-H]

At level 20, the best a RAW Warlock can do is throw a 13d6 (average damage 45.5) eldritch blast with a "Save or X for one round" attached, at a single target, or perhaps chained to a couple of targets, and warlocks aren't known for having great DCs. At this level, even the party fighter can dish out several times the damage, with debuffs available (Three Mountains, Brutal Strike, Improved Trip, etc.). Forget keeping up with initiators or true casters.

How do you help Warlocks stay relevant at higher levels? Iteratives on Eldritch Blast?

[Troacctid]

I think I currently have them at d8s for damage, d8 hit die, 4 skill points per level, and an extra invocation of each grade.

The key is understanding that they're not meant to be primary damage dealers.

[One Step Two]

The one fix I tried with a warlock in my group was that they could use any invocation Blast shape they qualified for, (Lance, chain, claw, etc), rather than having them use an invocation known on learning it. Admittedly, that campaign ended around 9th level, so I cannot give you much more than it didn't seem horribly unbalanced to give them the ability to shape their Eldritch Blast as needed while the rule was in effect, just gave them more options.

[Rater202]

My go tools are just giving them all Invocations of a Level they're capable of casting for free, giving them the option to make full attacks with Eldritch Blast at arond level ten, or Gestalting one of the Warlock Friendly Prestige Classes directly into the Warlock progression, though usually not all at the same time.

warlock gets a decent amount of mobility, debuff, and area control effects all at will including slightly better versions of Wall of Fire and Black Tentacles, so they'd make decent enough suport characters with a few mods in that direction.


(Also, No on HellfireWarlock doing Con damage and then arbitrarily not working if you become immune to Con damage. Anything that does ability damage, especially Con, to use it's primary abillity it's a trap option,, thematic sense be damned. I just drop that rule entirely.)

[Willie the Duck]

I feel like if you are going to try to bother being anything other than a tactical also ran (for example finishing off the guy the other party member 'almost took down'), you have to either do a Hellfire warlock (with Binder dip or the like) or Glaivelock build.

That said, even though the eldritch blast is the Warlock's most notable feature, it isn't the bulk of the decisions on makes in building the class. Having at will flying, invisibility, evard's tentacles, illusions and spider swarms and all sorts of madness, etc. etc. etc. really makes the class into something unto itself.

[RoboEmperor]

Warlocks can create any magic item in the game.
Which means Warlocks can create any scroll in the game.
Which means Warlocks can cast any spell in the game.
Which means Warlocks have access to all the out of combat shenanigans all the spellcasters have in the game.

For 15,000xp you can use a scroll of wish to create a Mithral Golem
Like... with the Eschew materials feat... you can create a Scroll of Simulacrum and create a Paeliryon for at-will Meteor Swarm which is 32d6 damage a round and at-will polymorph. Or Planetars for 9th level divine spells.
If you don't have Eschew Materials feat create a Scroll of Miracle to replicate Simulacrum.

If your warlock at 20th level isn't pulling the same shenanigans as wizards you're doing something wrong. Mainly not using the best freaking class feature you have.

[Rater202]

Anything that requires you to lose experience points is a trap option--lost XP means lost levels or less frequent level up compared to the rest of the party and that forces extra bookeeping onto the GM.

It's nothing but an extra punishment for daring to want magic items beyond what the GM deigns to make available(extra, since you're aready paying the full cost of the item and taking up much more time to make it than itowuld take to buy a similar item.)

(Artificer got me excited when I learned that it had a pool of points that replaced XP up until I learned that the pool is fixed and never replenishes unless you canibalize a magic item.)

Stating that a warlock can permanently cripple themselves to get the same versatility that a Wizard or Cleric has for free and thus that keeps them relevant is like saying that Fighters can stay relevant by putting crsoss class ranks into use magic device to stay relevant.

[ericgrau]

Anything that requires you to lose experience points is a trap option--lost XP means lost levels or less frequent level up compared to the rest of the party and that forces extra bookeeping onto the GM.
Xp is a river, meaning whenever you are behind a level you get extra xp from encounters. Staying 1 level behind gives you a substantial amount of bonus xp. Most crafters won't even use a small fraction of this xp, meaning they won't ever be behind more than a small fraction of ONE level.

Crafting is very nice.

I took a quick look at warlock and I see the UMD DCs for crafting arcane spells seem very reasonable. Divine is a little harder but if I'm not mistaken deceive item works with this and makes it not terrible. Having access to any spell is nice for crafting.

[RoboEmperor]

Stating that a warlock can permanently cripple themselves to get the same versatility that a Wizard or Cleric has for free and thus that keeps them relevant is like saying that Fighters can stay relevant by putting crsoss class ranks into use magic device to stay relevant.

Depends on the thing he spends xp for.

For example, Permanent Runes are at-will spells. So would you give up 2 levels worth of XP for at-will Summon Elemental Monolith? How about at-will Hunter of Hades? At-will Time Stop? Because I'd gladly trade 2 levels for an at-will 9th level spell.

On the other hand, if you consistently spend XP for 1 time use Time Stops, then yeah, you're correct

Warlock's endgame power is being Artificer light, not the BFC eldritch blaster.

[Ramza00]

How broken would it be to just tack on a 6 level spell casting class such as bard spell casting.

Remember Bards get 0 / 1 / 2 / 2/ 3 Spells per day of the highest spell levels.

---

In effect you are giving bard more versatility, and keeping their staying power / all day effects but also giving some high level spells per day but not as good as a wizard / sorcerer / cleric / druid to make up for the tradeoffs wizard / sorcerer / cleric / druid get.

[Torpin]

voracious dispelling, and utterdark blast

[Troacctid]

My go tools are just giving them all Invocations of a Level they're capable of casting for free,
Terrible, terrible, terrible idea. This makes the class absurdly spiky, introduces a ton of dead levels into the progression, and seriously unbalances it for multiclassing. (Not only does Warlock 1 become silly overpowered as a dip, but the long string of dead levels between lesser and greater invocations strongly incentivizes the player to take the first exit ramp at level 6.)


How broken would it be to just tack on a 6 level spell casting class such as bard spell casting.

Remember Bards get 0 / 1 / 2 / 2/ 3 Spells per day of the highest spell levels.

---

In effect you are giving bard more versatility, and keeping their staying power / all day effects but also giving some high level spells per day but not as good as a wizard / sorcerer / cleric / druid to make up for the tradeoffs wizard / sorcerer / cleric / druid get.
I mean, you could balance to this, but I don't think it's what the class wants. Like, you gotta figure people aren't playing warlock so that they can manage daily spell slots, y'know? It also risks undermining Deceive Item and Imbue Item by making UMD unnecessary, since you already have all the spells on your list.

[Dimers]

At level 20, the best a RAW Warlock can do is throw a 13d6 (average damage 45.5) eldritch blast with a "Save or X for one round" attached, at a single target, or perhaps chained to a couple of targets, and warlocks aren't known for having great DCs. At this level, even the party fighter can dish out several times the damage, with debuffs available (Three Mountains, Brutal Strike, Improved Trip, etc.). Forget keeping up with initiators or true casters.

How do you help Warlocks stay relevant at higher levels? Iteratives on Eldritch Blast?

Sounds like you mean combat specifically, not how to stay relevant in general.

Some options already exist. A warlock can get decent BFC, dispelling and mobility. Baleful polymorph can be an encounter-ender. Negative levels make a great debuff (and last more than a round).

Problem is, warlocks are best over time due to at-will abilities, and time is not something you have a lot of in the usual course of high-level D&D. Five-minute adventuring day and what-have-you. Finding a way to make encounters longer or have more of them in a day will help the warlock shine.

I do like the idea of iteratives for EB, as well as ...


they could use any invocation Blast shape they qualified for, (Lance, chain, claw, etc)

Personally I'd suggest giving one freebie blast shape or essence at every odd-numbered level, and offer quickened blast as a greater eldritch essence (so they can do one shaped blast as a swift action each round). But even with that, the warlock's combat role is unlikely to be "big guns".

[Troacctid]

If you're looking for some more invocation options, I have some homebrew ones that might be of interest. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VW9jlhLbid3yicbaBaSoTafRr7mulb8iwRFzlymvGRE/edit?usp=sharing

[Fizban]

How do you help Warlocks stay relevant at higher levels? Iteratives on Eldritch Blast?
If you really need that much to do the job then go for it, but that's not quite neccesary for my goal. Aside from all the other new invocations I've got on the allowed homebrew list, some of them are high level blast shapes that deal more damage. In particular, two Dark invocations stand out: one allows up to three blasts against a single target (out of eight total, so multiple targets), and one that hits everyone in the area automatically for a full blast, then again with another blast with save negates. (Check out Vael's Homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=13321110&postcount=166), there's a few I won't use but otherwise they're pretty much all great).

If you'd rather go a different direction or that's not enough, there's essences. A Dark tier essence that causes the blast to deal double damage on a failed save will do the job. Remember that since you only get one invocation every couple of levels, the combo doesn't instantly appear. You have one Dark invocation at 16th, and it's not until 18th that you get your second. An 18th level warlock with a shape for double (or triple) damage and an essence for double damage is dealing rather a lot more than usual. 1d6/2 levels x2x2= 2d6 per level before saves. All without any complicated class features or expectations of this PrC or that feat, and with a specific line drawn between those who want to specialize in Eldritch Blast for endgame, vs those who want to specialize in other invocations. Of course you also need a few more Dark invocations worth taking for that comparison to matter, but I was already doing that anyway.

[RoboEmperor]

The Demonbinder PrC from Drow of the Underdark gives Warlocks additional Eldritch Blasts several times a few times per encounter so try looking at that.

[skunk3]

The thing that makes Warlocks cool is that there's many paths that can be taken. Like someone else already said, if you're not doing much fighting in one day the Warlock can seem kinda lackluster compared to other classes but I assure you that in games in which you do a LOT of fighting in one day (say your city gets invaded by devils) the at-will awesomeness of Warlocks shines through. While most of the other castery types have blown their wads, the Warlock is still spamming along.

Flee The Scene is an awesome tactical tool and can be used as often as one wants.

Eldritch Chain lets one damage and debuff multiple enemies at a time, and with Eldritch Cone one can hit even more enemies while possibly doing less damage. (The debuff makes it worth it, IMO.)

If you have good CHA and take Ability Focus: Eldritch Blast your save DCs for blast essences are decent enough.

Warlocks are probably the second best crafters in the entire game with UMD as a class skill, so you can basically use anything... and if you take Hellfire Warlock you get Hellfire Infusion which is usable CHA mod times per day, which is excellent.

My main gripe with the Warlock class is with the feat Extra Invocation... it only allows one to select an invocation one lower than the highest one you know, which really sucks. I think we should be allowed to select one from ANY level we currently have access to, because this means that until you hit epic levels (which rarely happens) you simply can't gain any extra Dark invocations, and there's some really good ones... and if you do plan on going epic anyway you're going to end up taking some pretty crappy invocations just to quality for epic Warlock feats, some of which are amazing.

I think one thing that does suck about Warlock is that there's a fairly limited amount of prestige class options that are actually good. IMO Eldritch Disciple is the strongest one. One level of Mindbender is good if you don't mind learning the Charm invocation. In a gestalt game it would be awesome to take Enlightened Spirit along with Warlock, otherwise Enlightened Spirit is pretty crap.

I think that Warlocks should get at least 1 more skill point per level, double the DR they normally get, perhaps make fiendish resilience more potent or offer some good ACF options to swap it out (Venemous Blood is pretty nice but only for Drow I think, and only really gets good at higher levels), and also fix the energy resistance because what you get as a Warlock is pretty crappy but I guess it's better than nothing.

All in all I like Warlocks a lot even if they are less than uber. They are my favorite class to play with my only real complaint being a feeling of lacking options sometimes. They are not the star of the show but they can be great to have in a party for many reasons. Hell, just being able to spam Chilling Tentacles 100 times a day is pretty sweet. That invocation alone can make potentially scary encounters trivial. (And if you have Caustic Mire and Wall of Perilous Flame you can really ruin some baddies days... cold damage, acid damage, enhanced fire damage... all while being grappled and even if they break the grapple they are still moving at half speed and taking damage lol)

Oh, and if you have a demented imagination, Nightmares Made Real can be hilarious to use.

last edit: it would also be nice if Warlocks got a bonus feat every few levels, even if it was a fixed list that they had to pick from. (extra invocation, ability focus, etc)

[Rater202]

Terrible, terrible, terrible idea. This makes the class absurdly spiky, introduces a ton of dead levels into the progression, and seriously unbalances it for multiclassing. (Not only does Warlock 1 become silly overpowered as a dip, but the long string of dead levels between lesser and greater invocations strongly incentivizes the player to take the first exit ramp at level 6.)

I mean, Warlock's get Caster Levels and stuff at every level, so even spiking with Invocations known isn't really making dead-levels.

Regardless, I said that's one of my options. Not my only one.

It's mostly used for people who intend to go Warlock long haul(And since Warlock's gain invocations known as a spellcaster gaining spells known from PRC's, even if you skip out at lvel 6 unless you're doing a dumb you'll be taking a class that supports casting progression and anything that costs you more than one level of casting progression is worse than your spellcasting base class so I'd consider that functionally the same as staying a Warlock.)

Though if dipping is a problem the fix would be to add a paladin/monk style "once you leave this class you can't take an more levels of it unless you only take prestique classes that say you can go back" clause and maybe shift it so that yuo get all LEast Invocations when you'd have gotten your Lesser Invocations(IE, you'd go from knowing three least at level 5 to all least and 1 lesser at level four)with getting all Dark Invocations being a "Level 20 capstone."

Anyway,another fix I've seen is dobling the amount of Invocations a Warlock gets but splitting them into two tracks, one which is only for Eldritch Blast modifications and one tha's for everything else.

Alternativly, since Warlock's have more health and better armor by default than traditional casters, an option is to make them a gish-ish class. Bump their HD one or two sizes, tinker with their DR progression, and make Fiendish resilience a permamant passive effect rather than once a day for two minutes. This would be instead of giving them better blasties or more invocations.

[Hunter Noventa]

My DM and I ported the 3.5 Warlock to pathfinder and made a few changes. First we evened out the EB damage progression, rather than it being weirdly staggered. We also changed Extra Invocation to be of the any Invocation you could learn, because otherwise was just dumb. We created a bunch of thematic archetypes that gave a lot of fun options, and finally we created some more utility Invocations, using the fact that many of them replicated spells as it was as a guide. My favorite, though I didn't get to use it too much, was the Immediate-action globe of Invulnerability that lasted only a round. Well that and the Wall of Sound clone.

We also integrated it with the Mythic rules because it was a mythic game, and that was also pretty fun. I'll have to clean it up and post it here sometime.

[Crake]

I mean, Warlock's get Caster Levels and stuff at every level, so even spiking with Invocations known isn't really making dead-levels.

That's like saying fighters don't have dead levels because they get bab and hp every level.

[Elkad]

My problem with Warlocks is the same problem I have with DFAs.

They are boring. Your invocations known is tiny, so you end up doing the same thing your entire career.

And no, I have no idea why I don't have the same problem playing melee classes.

[Rater202]

That's like saying fighters don't have dead levels because they get bab and hp every level.

The Dead levels article on th old Wizards sight explicitly states that any level that improves your casting ability isn't a dead level.

Also, looking at the actual Warlock progression, even with my Spiking Invocatio rules there's no point in the Warlock progression where a Warlock isn't either getting a new abillity, an improvement to an old one, or more invocations so Warlocks under my rule don't have dead levels regardless.

[ericgrau]

The Dead levels article on th old Wizards sight explicitly states that any level that improves your casting ability isn't a dead level.
Sure if you get new spells or invocation(s) with that, which I believe that statement assumes.

[Rater202]

Sure if you get new spells or invocation(s) with that, which I believe that statement assumes.

Well, regardless, even with my proposed fix a Warlock would still have no dead levels--the only levels where a Warlock has no class features are levels where they get a new grade of Invocations.

But if my Fix and the Proposed Fix to my Fix(you get all X invocations when you get your first X+1 Invocation) still aren't acceptable then I've got the other fixes(Folding Modified Hellfire Warlock or the Celestial Warlock prestige class into the base Warlock progression, giving them interactive blasts at level ten, buffing DR and Fast healing while upping HD to make a Gish)

Again, never all of them at once. Different fixes for what you're actually trying to do with a Warlock or what other things in the setting work.

(For example, the utility of folding Modified Hellfire Warlock into the base Warlock progression depends on whether or not all the Eldritch Blast Dice or just the extra ones are ruled to deal Hellfire damage and whether or not you rule that creatures vulnerable to fire or that have regen overcome by fire would be vulnerable to Hellfire. RAW is that it's not, since it's explicitly not fire damage, but logic indicates that if you're extra weak to fire then you should be extra weak to magic fire that burns literally everything.)

[Cosi]

The problem with Warlocks is that the designers dramatically overrated the power of your combat abilities being at-will. Traditional casters are largely constrained by the number of rounds of combat, not by the number of spell slots they have (hence why people use celerity ever at all). The Warlock pays a steep premium for something that isn't really worth very much. That's hard to fix without overhauling the class entirely. Buffing Eldritch Blast would help. The obvious thing to do is to let them make iteratives with it -- it's not clear why they have Average BAB otherwise. Were you supposed to be making weapon attacks?

Warlocks also suffer from lack of options. I agree that giving them all the invocations off the bat is too much, but you clearly need to bump those numbers up (and by a lot more than one per grade). I would say give them an invocation per level, and give them their current progression again, but only for blast shapes and essences. Probably make Hellfire Warlock's thing a blast essence, and maybe let them pick spells from certain schools at DM's discretion (that could get pretty broken though, as some spell become very strong at will).

The item creation thing is weird. It's clearly not as strong as RoboEmperor thinks (no, you will not be allowed to give yourself at-will 9th level spells, that is not a thing that will happen), but it's also not as bat as Rater thinks (XP costs aren't completely crippling). The issue I have with it is that it doesn't really fit with the conception of "Warlock' that I (and I think most people) have. When you say "Warlock" I don't think "oh, yeah, a guy who can make a bunch of different magical trinkets". I think replacing it with a Fiendish Cohort might provide the class with a nice buff, while simultaneously making it a lot more thematically coherent.

[RoboEmperor]

I personally don't think Warlocks drop off anymore than mundanes do. Less damage but more BFC, and can transition to OPness with Imbue Item.

So you take a mundane, reduces its damage, give it BFC, and then turn it into an Artificer without any early entry shenanigans at high levels. IMO this is T2 not T3.

Glaivelocks are comparable to Uberchargers.

If you are talking about ignoring Imbue Item and their BFC (which imo is relevant even at higher levels) and focus only making their damage relevant without going glaivelock then that's pretty much ignoring the warlock and making a new class called Eldritch Blast.


The item creation thing is weird. It's clearly not as strong as RoboEmperor thinks (no, you will not be allowed to give yourself at-will 9th level spells, that is not a thing that will happen), but it's also not as bat as Rater thinks (XP costs aren't completely crippling). The issue I have with it is that it doesn't really fit with the conception of "Warlock' that I (and I think most people) have. When you say "Warlock" I don't think "oh, yeah, a guy who can make a bunch of different magical trinkets". I think replacing it with a Fiendish Cohort might provide the class with a nice buff, while simultaneously making it a lot more thematically coherent.

It is though. Permanent Runes are a magic item. Wish can create that magic item. You can create a scroll of wish. Where am I wrong?

If you want to stick to Core, Miracle replicates Simulacrum, Miracle ignores body part requirement, Simulacra of Monsters often have at-will spells like Meteor Swarm, you can create a Scroll of Miracle. Where am I wrong? With Eschew Materials feat 13th level Warlock becomes T1 because he doesn't need Miracle if he has Eschew Materials. Simulacrum of a Planetar, 9th level casting right there.

I have seriously considered going Warlock for a long, long, loooong while since Imbue Item is that good of an endgame class feature, and I love its at-will eldritch blast, but ultimately it got no minionmancy (or what I find as acceptable minionmancy) so I ditched the class. Still looking for ways to get "acceptable minionmancy" on low level warlocks.

[J-H]

In no games that I've played or run have I ever seen anyone do downtime crafting. I largely discount crafting-based power because it is extremely situational.

Since they're the other invocation user - how about the same question for DFAs? Do they drop off in power the way Warlocks do?

[Efrate]

I kind of feel like hexblade and warlock gestalt is what both should have been. They both have a very similar theme, both need a bit of love, and both would work well with one another. Take the revised hexblade that was unofficially errataed, and warlock, together makes a very good creepy power guy.

[Sleven]

I give them odd level EB damage progression and an invocation known at every level (5 of each). Sometimes I'll bump the HD up one or give extra skill points with a few extra knowledges, as has been suggestion. If they want to pretty much stick to warlock, I also consider giving them good Fort saves. That being said, there hasn't been much demand for them in games I've run beyond Eldritch Disciple or Theurge. Eldritch Theurge is actually one of my favorite classes and has fun, meaningful class features that synergize extraordinarily well together. Although, I typically use early entry on the Warlock side or a fast progression arcane class.

[Troacctid]

In no games that I've played or run have I ever seen anyone do downtime crafting. I largely discount crafting-based power because it is extremely situational.
It's pretty easy to craft without downtime. Just do it while your party is sleeping. Warlocks don't need to recover spell slots, so as long as you pick a race that doesn't need to sleep (warforged, any non-native outsider) or just pick up a ring of sustenance, you can always work through the night.

[Telonius]

It's a bit of an investment, but if you take a level of Rogue (or get Sneak Attack in some other way), take Darkness as an Invocation, Craven, and Blend Into Shadows (a feat from Drow of the Underdark), you can essentially get Hide in Plain Sight at-will and sneak attack damage against anything that's vulnerable to it. +23.5 damage at level 20 isn't huge, but every little bit helps.

[RoboEmperor]

In no games that I've played or run have I ever seen anyone do downtime crafting. I largely discount crafting-based power because it is extremely situational.

It's not situational at all. It only takes 8 hours a day so you can totally do it while adventuring. Not to mention scrolls take like 1-3 days to create.

The correct reason is because you don't want to bother with it, and that's totally fine. I totally discounted crafting based power until a few months ago until I learned how to use Artificers. But Warlocks can break the game almost as bady as artificers and wizards so they're relevant late game, just not in the way you want them to be.

[Hunter Noventa]

I don't know about 3.5, but in PF you can work on magic items while adventuring, but they also say you only get to work 4 hours a day for 2 hours of progress.

It also depends on how strict your DM is about having an environment suitable for enchanting. Your tent or whatever, may not be suitable.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

In my PF games I combined the class with Occultist. Imbue/Deceive Item play well with Occultist's magic item features and Outside Contact fits the Warlock' flavor well. It adds casting but not much slot management.

[jindra34]

Since they're the other invocation user - how about the same question for DFAs? Do they drop off in power the way Warlocks do?

DFAs come out a bit stronger and taper off in power slower, because they have some STUPIDLY good early BFC options that pretty well stay relevant for forever. Or at least till enemies teleport as common movement.

[Segev]

Sadly, without house ruling, the best options are to focus on utility (especially the artificer-lite ability), or to splash a level of Binder for Naebarius and go Hellfire Warlock. Naebarius means you're unquestionably taking the constitution damage to fuel your Hellfire Blast, but that you still are all better in one round, just in time to do it again.

Warlock scepters also help.

Eldrich Glaive, if you're willing to get into melee, DOES give you iteratives. Though at that point, splashing Eldrich Disciple for healing blast is probably better for staying relevant.

Warlock can keep up, but it takes WORK.

[Asmotherion]

With the right prestige optimisation and if your dm doesn't mind you cheezing you can:

1) use Eldritch Glaive to get your full BAB worth of Melee Touch Attacks with a 10 foot reach.
2) Get up to 6d6 bonus to your EB with Hellfire Warlock. 1 Level Dip in Binder Class to Bind the Naberius Vestige will heal your Con Damage per Round so you can basically spam this.
3) Continue the Prestige with cheezy ways such as Legacy Champion or Uncanny Tricster to basically grand you another 2d6 Hellfire bonus per level to your Eldritch Blast. Per Hit with Eldritch Glaive.
4) Vitriolic Blast bypasses your enemie's spell resistance so you'll have no problem hitting those.

Now how's that problematic to stay relevant? You're up there with the best of 'em.

At the same time you can replicate and prepare scrolls of various usefull spells from every caster's spell list. You can create magical items with the right feats and have various At-Will Spell-Like Abilities that function with great synergy and allow you to replicate a great basic set of "spells" to play with the Full casters.

Alright. You're no 20th Level (prepared) Wizard. But (Optimised) you're at least as competant as the rest of the classes.

[Troacctid]

With the right prestige optimisation and if your dm doesn't mind you cheezing you can:

1) use Eldritch Glaive to get your full BAB worth of Melee Touch Attacks with a 10 foot reach.
2) Get up to 6d6 bonus to your EB with Hellfire Warlock. 1 Level Dip in Binder Class to Bind the Naberius Vestige will heal your Con Damage per Round so you can basically spam this.
3) Continue the Prestige with cheezy ways such as Legacy Champion or Uncanny Tricster to basically grand you another 2d6 Hellfire bonus per level to your Eldritch Blast. Per Hit with Eldritch Glaive.
4) Vitriolic Blast bypasses your enemie's spell resistance so you'll have no problem hitting those.
Trouble is if a spell makes multiple attacks in a single round, you only get the bonus damage on the first one, as per the weaponlike spell rules. Makes the glaive less than ideal as a delivery method for the extra damage.

[Segev]

Trouble is if a spell makes multiple attacks in a single round, you only get the bonus damage on the first one, as per the weaponlike spell rules. Makes the glaive less than ideal as a delivery method for the extra damage.

Now that's an interesting question to raise. What counts as "extra damage" versus "base damage?" Hellfire Blast adds damage to the blast, yes, but so do more levels of Warlock. The rule does clearly cover sneak attack (which is annoying as heck), but does it really cover Hellfire Blast but not the additional damage from higher levels of Warlock?

I believe Hellfire Blast can be read to be its own base damage that happens ot be 2d6 x HFW level more than a standard Eldrich Blast. So if the +2d6 x HFW level is "extra" damage, so, too, might the +1d6s added at higher levels of Warlock. And I doubt the Glaive only does 1d6 on all but the first hit.

[Troacctid]

Now that's an interesting question to raise. What counts as "extra damage" versus "base damage?" Hellfire Blast adds damage to the blast, yes, but so do more levels of Warlock. The rule does clearly cover sneak attack (which is annoying as heck), but does it really cover Hellfire Blast but not the additional damage from higher levels of Warlock?

I believe Hellfire Blast can be read to be its own base damage that happens ot be 2d6 x HFW level more than a standard Eldrich Blast. So if the +2d6 x HFW level is "extra" damage, so, too, might the +1d6s added at higher levels of Warlock. And I doubt the Glaive only does 1d6 on all but the first hit.
It's not that interesting a question, since Hellfire Blast specifically calls itself extra damage.

[Segev]

It's not that interesting a question, since Hellfire Blast specifically calls itself extra damage.

Ah, does it? Never mind.

[Troacctid]

What is interesting is that it also specifically says if you deal damage to multiple targets, each one takes the extra damage. So you can still get the extra damage on subsequent hits with the glaive, you just need to target a different creature with each one. Also, if you use Eldritch Chain, you actually get to double-dip on the extra damage, since secondary targets take half the damage of the primary target (including half the hellfire damage) and then another hell-ping on top of that.

[Quertus]

Anything that requires you to lose experience points is a trap option--lost XP means lost levels or less frequent level up compared to the rest of the party and that forces extra bookeeping onto the GM.

It's nothing but an extra punishment for daring to want magic items beyond what the GM deigns to make available(extra, since you're aready paying the full cost of the item and taking up much more time to make it than itowuld take to buy a similar item.)

So, don't lose XP. Buy XP components to make up the XP cost.

Also, you're not paying full cost - you're paying 70% cost - 50% in GP/materials, and 20% in XP/XP components.

[GrayDeath]

Keeping the Warlock relevant and more fun, without vchanging what the class is or requireing Gestalt/precise multiclassing is easy (most things have already been mentioned in the thread, but I`ll do a summary on what we allow it in the games where it is allowed^^).

Raise Hitdie to D8
Raise Skillpts per Level to 6+Int Mod, add 1-2 fitting Extra CLass Skills OR increase the Eldritch Blast Dice to D8´s (we call it BLastlock and Knowlock^^)
Give it one free Eldritch Blast Shape Invocation every Level they gain Eldritch Blast Damage+
Allow Extra Invoacations gained through feats to be of the maximum Level of Invocations known
Add one extra Free Invocation of the Players Choice at Levels 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18 and 20.

Makes it more solid and flexible, does not voerpower it in any way if played in "normally optimized" Environments that is.

[Cosi]

If you're DMing, you can also help the Warlock with careful encounter design. You can't just try to get people to do more encounters in a day. Absent serious time constraints (the need for which puts constraints on adventure building), you aren't going to be able to push people to do lots of encounters in a day, and they will mostly rest when the Wizard (or Cleric, or whoever) runs out of daily resources even if the Warlock could keep going. But including encounters that consist of gradual waves of weak enemies gives the Warlock a chance to shine, because they can chunk a blast or invocation every round, while the Wizard is denied the ability to use their spells to optimal effect. Warlocks (once they get fell flight and an AoE ability) are also stupidly good at killing armies, so giving them a chance to do that can be useful.


It is though. Permanent Runes are a magic item. Wish can create that magic item. You can create a scroll of wish. Where am I wrong?

I didn't say you were wrong, I said you were not going to be able to do that in (the vast majority of) games. Using wish to make stupidly overpowered items is cheese. It's not even new cheese. The Wish is a Warlock who uses wish to make a stupidly powerful magic item, and that build is from 2004. It was cheese then, and it is cheese now. At least it was novel then.


Raise Skillpts per Level to 6+Int Mod, add 1-2 fitting Extra CLass Skills OR increase the Eldritch Blast Dice to D8´s (we call it BLastlock and Knowlock^^)

Once again, skills are not that good. There are like two skills that are really impressive, and the Warlock gets one of them already.

[GrayDeath]

They are however versatile, and buffable through many a Warlocks Invocation, and hence useful.
Never said it was an Option that increased POWER, thats the other one. ;)

[RoboEmperor]

I didn't say you were wrong, I said you were not going to be able to do that in (the vast majority of) games. Using wish to make stupidly overpowered items is cheese. It's not even new cheese. The Wish is a Warlock who uses wish to make a stupidly powerful magic item, and that build is from 2004. It was cheese then, and it is cheese now. At least it was novel then.

If DMs don't mind me creating Simulacra of Paeliryons with my cleric then I don't see why DMs would mind a Warlock creating Simulacra of Paeliryons. As long as, you know, it's not an efreeti or a solar/planetar I've never seen a DM disallow Simulacra.

[weckar]

Warlock Kensei are fun. They can technically enchant their EB, because you can take weapon focus in it. This opens up a lot of options.

[Troacctid]

Warlock Kensei are fun. They can technically enchant their EB, because you can take weapon focus in it. This opens up a lot of options.
Kensai specifically requires Weapon Focus in a weapon, though. Eldritch blast is weaponlike, but it's not a weapon.

[Blue Jay]

Kensai specifically requires Weapon Focus in a weapon, though. Eldritch blast is weaponlike, but it's not a weapon.

I disagree. From Complete Arcane (p. 71):

A character who uses invocations or spell-like abilities might be able to take advantage of feats such as Weapon Focus or Precise Shot, as described under Feats and Weaponlike Spells, below. (The warlock's eldritch blast is weaponlike).
Granted, it doesn't exactly say "a warlock can take Weapon Focus (eldritch blast)," but it seems pretty clear that that is that intention. Either that or "eldritch blast benefits from Weapon Focus (ranged spell)."

[Telonius]

There are some minor alignment issues with Kensai regardless; it requires Lawful. Without alignment shifting, a Lawful Evil warlock is the only one that can get it. There's not listed penalty for a Warlock "falling," so the only consequence for a Chaotic Good Warlock (to take an example) changing to Lawful would be not being able to advance in Warlock any longer. Not catastrophic, but you do need to plan for that.

[Troacctid]

I disagree. From Complete Arcane (p. 71):

Granted, it doesn't exactly say "a warlock can take Weapon Focus (eldritch blast)," but it seems pretty clear that that is that intention. Either that or "eldritch blast benefits from Weapon Focus (ranged spell)."
It exactly says that you can take Weapon Focus (ranged spells or touch spells). You choose a category of weaponlike spell, not a specific spell. And it doesn't work for Kensai because Kensai's requirement says:

Feats: Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus (any weapon)
It's more specific than just Weapon Focus. It has to be Weapon Focus with a weapon. Ranged spells are weaponlike, but they are not weapons, so they don't count.

[Blue Jay]

It exactly says that you can take Weapon Focus (ranged spells or touch spells). You choose a category of weaponlike spell, not a specific spell. And it doesn't work for Kensai because Kensai's requirement says:

It's more specific than just Weapon Focus. It has to be Weapon Focus with a weapon. Ranged spells are weaponlike, but they are not weapons, so they don't count.

My apologies: I misunderstood the intent of your post as saying that you can't take Weapon Focus with eldtritch blast.

But I still disagree with you. As I understand it, the whole concept of "Weaponlike Spells" is that they can be treated as weapons for some purposes, including feats. The text of the Weapon Focus itself says that the thing you choose for the feat counts as a weapon:

Choose one type of weapon, such as greataxe. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat. You are especially good at using this weapon. (If you have chosen ray, you are especially good with rays, such as the one produced by the ray of frost spell.)

That seems to be saying that anything you take Weapon Focus with counts as a weapon for the purposes of the feat. So "Weapon Focus (any weapon)' is no more specific than "Weapon Focus."

That said, the Sage argued in the FAQ that the intent for a Kensai's signature weapon to be an actual, physical weapon, and that he personally felt that eldritch blast didn't meet that standard, but that it was up to DM adjudication. This hasn't come up in any game I've DMed, but in the absence of context, I'd personally be inclined towards rejecting EB as a signature weapon, but not on the grounds that "Weapon Focus (EB)" doesn't count as "Weapon Focus (any weapon)."