Waterdeep Dragonheist: Insane Encounter (Spoiler Chapter 1)

[Sahe]

I'm a player in a Waterdeep Dragonheist game and we finished Chapter 1 yesterday where towards the end we encountered a Mind Flayer, an Intellect Devourer and a low level wizard.

Our party consists of a bard, a rogue and a barbarian.

The Mind Flayer retreats and we didn't pursue so it was of little consequence, leaving the wizard and the Intellect Devourer and honestly this still baffles me. Our Barbarian was immediately turned into a useless sack of meat by the ID and I and the bard managed to kill the other two without further losses. However, the only reason we managed that was because the DM was very lenient. The Wizard was only spamming firebolt instead of using one of his spells. She forgot to roll Psychic Damage on Devour Intellect and only used it against the Barbarian and the ID didn't try to bodysnatch the Barb. She also forgot that the ID was resistant to nonmagical weapon damage.

All in all if played to it's full potential I don't really see how a 1st Level Party is supposed to overcome the ID and Wizard at least not without getting very lucky, even with a five player party, especially if the party lacks a good magic damage dealer.

Our DM was also lenient in that a Long Rest restores your Int score, I know other DM's who would require more than that, like the services of a high level priest. Which our group could certainly not afford and considering our Backgrounds wouldn't have been plausible for most of the group.

Maybe I'm missing something here, maybe the GM is supposed to gimp the ID, but run at it's full potential I fail to see how this is not an encounter that is supposed to end in a TPK or at least half the party having to roll new characters.

[Willie the Duck]

Well, first and foremost, 5e is routinely lauded/griped about in that your characters are quite squishy at 1st level and relatively hard to kill (using baseline rules) after about level 3 or 4. So, with that in mind, an important encounter might meaning that a party that didn't happen upon perfect builds for the scenario needing to have half the party roll up new characters?-- that seems like the game working exactly as people say it does (no opinion on how it 'ought' to work).

That said, a mind flayer is obviously too powerful for 1st levels. I assume it is stated in-module that the MF does not engage. So it was always just a wizard and a ID. That's... about right for a deadly encounter at level one. Both of them go down easily if cornered. Yes they have save-or-sucks (and if the wizard had cast sleep on one set of PCs and the ID blasted the others, it could have been a wipe), but your rogue has Int save proficiency and your bard has save boosters to hand out. The scenario is not as lopsided as it initially appears.

Mind you, Intellect devourers are super overpowered compared to their CR if the DM chooses to make them so. I think there's a kind of universal consensus that they shouldn't be able to bodysnatch in the middle of active combat (despite no rules saying otherwise)--they do that when they ambush a low-int character off by themselves.

[Sigreid]

Was running away not an option? When I DM there are encounters you shouldn't take.

[Marcelinari]

It’s certainly a potential way the encounter could go, and not much details is given on the Mind Flayer’s motivation in Chapter 1, but he is given a little more characterization later in the book. When I ran it for my players (also a 3-PC team) I decided that the Mind Flayer is quite fond of the Intellect Devourer and treats it like a pet/puppy, and so he took it with him as he retreated.

The intellect devourer is definitely the more dangerous of the two enemies you faced. However, the DC of its attack is relatively low, and similarly the AC of both your opponents should have been quite low. Unless your whole group dumped Int, or you were severely more injured than my players were, you should probably have been able to prevail against the encounter as presented.

It is intended to be the boss battle of chapter 1, as well. Making the encounter genuinely dangerous is within the scope of the narrative.

EDIT: For the sake of discussion, and by virtue of the fact that you’ve already defeated him, the Wizard should have had the stats of an Apprentice Wizard (stats given in Dragon Heist), with the addition of Half-Orc racial traits (notably Relentless Endurance). The Apprentice Wizard does not natively have Sleep prepared, though it can cast Burning Hands. I can’t remember the other spells. My players killed him astonishingly quickly, what with an AC of ~10 and 9HP.

[Malifice]

I'm a player in a Waterdeep Dragonheist game and we finished Chapter 1 yesterday where towards the end we encountered a Mind Flayer, an Intellect Devourer and a low level wizard.

Our party consists of a bard, a rogue and a barbarian.

The Mind Flayer retreats and we didn't pursue so it was of little consequence, leaving the wizard and the Intellect Devourer and honestly this still baffles me. Our Barbarian was immediately turned into a useless sack of meat by the ID and I and the bard managed to kill the other two without further losses. However, the only reason we managed that was because the DM was very lenient. The Wizard was only spamming firebolt instead of using one of his spells. She forgot to roll Psychic Damage on Devour Intellect and only used it against the Barbarian and the ID didn't try to bodysnatch the Barb. She also forgot that the ID was resistant to nonmagical weapon damage.

All in all if played to it's full potential I don't really see how a 1st Level Party is supposed to overcome the ID and Wizard at least not without getting very lucky, even with a five player party, especially if the party lacks a good magic damage dealer.

Our DM was also lenient in that a Long Rest restores your Int score, I know other DM's who would require more than that, like the services of a high level priest. Which our group could certainly not afford and considering our Backgrounds wouldn't have been plausible for most of the group.

Maybe I'm missing something here, maybe the GM is supposed to gimp the ID, but run at it's full potential I fail to see how this is not an encounter that is supposed to end in a TPK or at least half the party having to roll new characters.

Not really seeing it.

A sleep spell drops it on a roll of 21 or higher if its fully healthy.

That said you only had a 3 man party.

It on it's own would have caused problems, but you could have beaten it. Rogue deals 11 damage on a hit, Barbarian deals 12 on a hit and the Bard deals 7 (no spells). Heck the Bard could inspire the Barbarian to land a GWM hit dealing a 22 or so damage.

Were halving that damage seeing as the critter is resistant to non magic weapons, but still, it only has 21 HP.

For mine, I would have had you all 2nd level before running that encounter, or I would have turned it down seeing as there were only 3 of you.

FWIW the intent of the ID was for the int drain to come back on a long rest.

[Sahe]

We couldn't have gotten away fast enough, considering the ID moves faster, we had the dead weight of the Barbarian and we were supposed to get an NPC out too.

My Int Save as a Rogue is only at +1 since I do have only 8 Int. Even without body snatching, the ID, thanks to resistance the ID has enough HP to braindead an entire lvl 1 party...or just down them all thanks to the Psychic Damage it deals.

The Wizard was actually just a Wizard Apprentice and could have killed us with Burning Hands, after all the Barbarian was out and the Rogue and Bard had both about 7 HP.

I mean, yeah 5e is notorious for being very deadly at lvl 1, I have run and played enough myself to know, but this encounter seems just build to kill the party.

[Foxhound438]

Was running away not an option? When I DM there are encounters you shouldn't take.

if you're following the module closely, you're supposed to be on a rescue mission, and the guy is basically in that room. Unfortunately, retreating would logically result in the subject of your rescue being killed and body snached, so mission failure there. Plus, by the time you're aware that you need to run someone's probably KO'd already thanks to the 3d6 int damage that one shots most characters (regardless of level) on a failed save.

It's probably a little above average in difficulty for a level 1 party, anyways. Fighting against only 3 PC's it'd probably have to be fudged a little bit, especially if it insta-KO's the party tank. More people would make it a little bit more manageable, but obviously still super dangerous.

[zingbobco000]

It sounds like your DM didn't scale on account of the relatively low player count. I'd recommend for them to check out this (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vOg1Zk8TmMBeTR_SOQGzzbxJbG4Qpo0VUwTUjB7kkaE/edit?usp=sharing). It could be useful both for chapter 1 and in the long run if you're still going to run with three players.

[Sahe]

Not really seeing it.

A sleep spell drops it on a roll of 21 or higher if its fully healthy.

That said you only had a 3 man party.

It on it's own would have caused problems, but you could have beaten it. Rogue deals 11 damage on a hit, Barbarian deals 12 on a hit and the Bard deals 7 (no spells). Heck the Bard could inspire the Barbarian to land a GWM hit dealing a 22 or so damage.

Were halving that damage seeing as the critter is resistant to non magic weapons, but still, it only has 21 HP.

For mine, I would have had you all 2nd level before running that encounter, or I would have turned it down seeing as there were only 3 of you.

FWIW the intent of the ID was for the int drain to come back on a long rest.

ID was first in initiative and immediately took out the Barbarian (also no GWM anyway) it should also be said that we're not a highly optimized party. We also weren't at full Strength since we didn't have a Long Rest since coming from the previous Encounter in the Warehouse.

[Unoriginal]

Maybe I'm missing something here, maybe the GM is supposed to gimp the ID, but run at it's full potential I fail to see how this is not an encounter that is supposed to end in a TPK or at least half the party having to roll new characters.

I've run that encounter, although things went differently because the party decided to announce themselves rather than trying to stealth, leading to the Illithid leaving with the Intellect Devourer and the wizard to fight alongside the other members of the gang in the lair.


The wizard can easily be two-shot'd by many level one characters, and would certainly get three-shot'd by any level one character, as a combination of incredibly low AC and only slightly more health than your average goblins. He's also weak enough a wizard that spamming Firebolt is among the best offensive options he had (in fact, he only has one better offensive spell, but he probably died before he could use it effectively).

We gotta remember that not everyone is a

The Intellect Devourer is the true boss. That being said, it still only has AC 12 and 21 HPs, even with the resistance and the multiattack.

That being said, a party of 3 is severely disadvantaged for this fight.

Also, the NPC you rescued earlier could have been here with you to help. He's pretty damn useful for this fight.



That said, a mind flayer is obviously too powerful for 1st levels. I assume it is stated in-module that the MF does not engage.


Basically. The Mind Flayer only engage if the PCs run after it and try to stop it from leaving.

[mangosta71]

I think there's a kind of universal consensus that they shouldn't be able to bodysnatch in the middle of active combat (despite no rules saying otherwise)--they do that when they ambush a low-int character off by themselves.
That consensus isn't quite universal.

My 4th level party ran into an ID inhabiting a 9th level fighter (with the lovely NPC benefits of having double hp and twice as many attacks). He dropped the paladin, failed a save against Hold Person so we got a round of free crits, the ID jumped bodies into the paladin (but none of our characters realized it), so we healed him up, and then the paladin attacked and nearly dropped the monk (seriously, the monk had 9hp and the paladin did a total of 8 with his greatsword + smite). So then we had to put the paladin down.

It was messy. The paladin player had a good laugh about it, and his only regret was that he wasn't able to take anyone else down with him.

[Bel-Torac]

When I ran this we had a party of 7 and they took it down in 2 rounds. The int devourer got one stun attack off before they killed it. I think your problem was low party numbers.

You could have used Renaer as an npc swashbuckler. There are also lots of npcs that can aid you in the game.

[Willie the Duck]

ID was first in initiative and immediately took out the Barbarian (also no GWM anyway) it should also be said that we're not a highly optimized party. We also weren't at full Strength since we didn't have a Long Rest since coming from the previous Encounter in the Warehouse.


I mean, yeah 5e is notorious for being very deadly at lvl 1, I have run and played enough myself to know, but this encounter seems just build to kill the party.

Okay, you keep providing explanations why your party was particularly unsuited for the situation (first of all being THREE PCS) and then suggesting that the encounter was built as a TPK engine. While it is not impossible that both things are true, I think your party makeup is a major contributing factor that the adventure designer could not foresee.

[Ganymede]

All these people with their forum-crafted, int-dumped characters didn't expect an Intellect Devourer as the first level boss.

[Sahe]

I've run that encounter, although things went differently because the party decided to announce themselves rather than trying to stealth, leading to the Illithid leaving with the Intellect Devourer and the wizard to fight alongside the other members of the gang in the lair.


The wizard can easily be two-shot'd by many level one characters, and would certainly get three-shot'd by any level one character, as a combination of incredibly low AC and only slightly more health than your average goblins. He's also weak enough a wizard that spamming Firebolt is among the best offensive options he had (in fact, he only has one better offensive spell, but he probably died before he could use it effectively).

We gotta remember that not everyone is a

The Intellect Devourer is the true boss. That being said, it still only has AC 12 and 21 HPs, even with the resistance and the multiattack.

That being said, a party of 3 is severely disadvantaged for this fight.

Also, the NPC you rescued earlier could have been here with you to help. He's pretty damn useful for this fight.



The NPC was with us but rolled bad for attack rolls.

How it basically went down:

- we stumbled into the room Barbarian first. Initiative goes: ID > Barbarian > Rogue > Bard > NPC > Wizard
- Mind Flayer waltzes out, ID melts Barbarians brain.
- Kinda stumped on how the hell we're supposed to do this I (Rogue) take a shot at the ID (8 Damage)
- Bard Mocks the ID (2 Damage)
- NPC moves ID and misses
- Wizard Firebolts but misses
- ID moves on Rogue and claw attacks (misses)
- Barbarian stares blankly
- Rogue stabs the ID with Sneak attack (kills it with 11 Damage)
- Bard mocks the Wizard (Saves)
- NPC misses
- Wizard Firebolts Bard (3 Damage)
- Rogue stabs Wizard for some damage
- Bard mocks Wizard to death.

- if the DM hadn't turned the ID into a crappy wolf after it took out the Barbarian, we would probably be all (brain) dead
- if the ID had taken over the Barbarian we would've most certainly been dead
- if the Wizard had used Burning Hands once...there is a pretty good chance we would've died, almost certain of used twice (we had not much room to maneuver and would've both been hit)

I know it's a boss fight, from my point of view it's unreasonably tough one and one that can very quickly feel very unfair. Because if you fail your save against the Devourer you're out and if isn't killed you could be dead and hacking away at your party by next round. If you compare it to the Boss Encounter in Lost Mines of Phandelver (1 Bugbear, 5 Goblins and a Wolf) that is also a very tough encounter that can go bad quickly and will probably see someone go down. But go down is very different from "out of the fight regardless of HP" or even worse "have your brain eaten and smack the party".

[Unoriginal]

The NPC was with us but rolled bad for attack rolls.

How it basically went down:

- we stumbled into the room Barbarian first. Initiative goes: ID > Barbarian > Rogue > Bard > NPC > Wizard
- Mind Flayer waltzes out, ID melts Barbarians brain.
- Kinda stumped on how the hell we're supposed to do this I (Rogue) take a shot at the ID (8 Damage)
- Bard Mocks the ID (2 Damage)
- NPC moves ID and misses
- Wizard Firebolts but misses
- ID moves on Rogue and claw attacks (misses)
- Barbarian stares blankly
- Rogue stabs the ID with Sneak attack (kills it with 11 Damage)
- Bard mocks the Wizard (Saves)
- NPC misses
- Wizard Firebolts Bard (3 Damage)
- Rogue stabs Wizard for some damage
- Bard mocks Wizard to death.

- if the DM hadn't turned the ID into a crappy wolf after it took out the Barbarian, we would probably be all (brain) dead
- if the ID had taken over the Barbarian we would've most certainly been dead
- if the Wizard had used Burning Hands once...there is a pretty good chance we would've died, almost certain of used twice (we had not much room to maneuver and would've both been hit)

I know it's a boss fight, from my point of view it's unreasonably tough one and one that can very quickly feel very unfair. Because if you fail your save against the Devourer you're out and if isn't killed you could be dead and hacking away at your party by next round. If you compare it to the Boss Encounter in Lost Mines of Phandelver (1 Bugbear, 5 Goblins and a Wolf) that is also a very tough encounter that can go bad quickly and will probably see someone go down. But go down is very different from "out of the fight regardless of HP" or even worse "have your brain eaten and smack the party".

The Devourer isn't an "if you fail the save you're out".

First you have to fail the save, then the DM has to roll equal or higher than your INT score.

Basically, you were 3 PCs + 1 NPC in a fight that's best fit for 4 PCs (+1 NPC optional), and you got unlucky with a few rolls.

I'm kinda impressed by how the NPC apparently missed every single one of his three attacks each round. Especially given he had +6 against bad guys who have 12 AC max.

I've given him exhaustion levels because of the circumstances of how the PCs find him, and he still managed to hit pretty well.

[Waar]

Our party consists of a bard, a rogue and a barbarian.

All in all if played to it's full potential I don't really see how a 1st Level Party is supposed to overcome the ID and Wizard at least not without getting very lucky, even with a five player party, especially if the party lacks a good magic damage dealer.


An Intellect Devourer on its own would be a deadly encounter for 3 level 1 PCs if evaluated as the CR 2 creature the MM claims it is.

However, the Intellect Devourer also has a 50% chance to reduce an int 8 pc to 0 int, stunning it in the process. A CR 2 creature having an ability that has a (up to about) 50% chance of essentially killing a PC (they forgot to put in a duration for the int reduction, so a greater restoration would probably be necessary to fix the reduction) is highly inappropriate.

[Sahe]

The Devourer isn't an "if you fail the save you're out".

First you have to fail the save, then the DM has to roll equal or higher than your INT score.

Basically, you were 3 PCs + 1 NPC in a fight that's best fit for 4 PCs (+1 NPC optional), and you got unlucky with a few rolls.

I'm kinda impressed by how the NPC apparently missed every single one of his three attacks each round. Especially given he had +6 against bad guys who have 12 AC max.

I've given him exhaustion levels because of the circumstances of how the PCs find him, and he still managed to hit pretty well.

Granted I forgot that about the Int roll.

The NPC only attacked once each round, the DM is new and probably got the Stat Blocks wrong. I suggested to her that she'd give us control over NPCs in the future in Combat so she doesn't have to worry about that.

[LordEntrails]

Live and learn, and let it go.

You DM probably learned about encounter balance. You and the other players have to learn that it's a game, and characters failing is one of the possibilities.

[Unoriginal]

Granted I forgot that about the Int roll.

The NPC only attacked once each round, the DM is new and probably got the Stat Blocks wrong. I suggested to her that she'd give us control over NPCs in the future in Combat so she doesn't have to worry about that.

Well then you have it.

I'll admit, Dragon Heist is NOT new-DM-friendly.

[Sahe]

Live and learn, and let it go.

You DM probably learned about encounter balance. You and the other players have to learn that it's a game, and characters failing is one of the possibilities.

I'm actually more miffed about the fact that we got out alive at all and that the victory didn't feel earned and that an encounter that can go so absolutely horribly wrong very quick with a bit of bad luck is there in the first place.

[Malifice]

ID was first in initiative and immediately took out the Barbarian (also no GWM anyway) it should also be said that we're not a highly optimized party. We also weren't at full Strength since we didn't have a Long Rest since coming from the previous Encounter in the Warehouse.

Your DM should have fudged or nerfed the encounter down.

[Ganymede]

Your DM should have fudged or nerfed the encounter down.

While I agree in general that you have to tone down these encounters when you only have three PCs, Dragon Heist is all about non-lethal outcomes.

A party failure at this point would not necessarily end in a TPK, especially if it would draw the attention of the fuzz. Perhaps the party is captured, interrogated, and dumped unconscious in an alley somewhere.

[Unoriginal]

While I agree in general that you have to tone down these encounters when you only have three PCs, Dragon Heist is all about non-lethal outcomes.

A party failure at this point would not necessarily end in a TPK, especially if it would draw the attention of the fuzz. Perhaps the party is captured, interrogated, and dumped unconscious in an alley somewhere.

Not really, a TPK against a vicious gang would certainly be death.

[Slayn82]

I'm actually more miffed about the fact that we got out alive at all and that the victory didn't feel earned and that an encounter that can go so absolutely horribly wrong very quick with a bit of bad luck is there in the first place.

Ah, that's some classic rpg encounter design. Several modules, since ever, have death traps like that. Some would call it bad design. But it's actually more like evil design.

Mess too much with the sinister stone pillar at the dungeon entrance? Demon surprise. You gonna die.

Insisted on entering the weird corridor made of flesh that some kind of force is preventing only you on the party from entering? Surprise, that's actually a portal to your own innards, and you get twisted inside out. You die.

Tomb of Horrors? You die, die, die, die, die.

It catters to a certain style of play, and if the DM think it's too deadly, he can simplify/ease things. I like the suspense it generates, and when you can understand the clues, it's very amusing.

[Legendairy]

Not really, a TPK against a vicious gang would certainly be death.

Actually not in this module, it has sidebars as to why the gangs wouldn’t kill the PC’s. There are a bunch of reasons a gang wouldn’t in the first place, especially with things like Intillect Devourers that they could use to infiltrate other places.

Granted this being early on the group might not have much affiliation, I can still posit a few reasons to keep them alive, none of them great mind you. But Xanathar DOES have a pretty extensive slave trade going on.

[Unoriginal]

Actually not in this module, it has sidebars as to why the gangs wouldn’t kill the PC’s. There are a bunch of reasons a gang wouldn’t in the first place, especially with things like Intillect Devourers that they could use to infiltrate other places.

Granted this being early on the group might not have much affiliation, I can still posit a few reasons to keep them alive, none of them great mind you. But Xanathar DOES have a pretty extensive slave trade going on.

I'm running this module. There is no reason why this particular gang would keep the PCs alive (at least, alive after they've interrogated them) because they know their secret hideout, the Mind Flayer's presence, and the situation with Renaer. Not to mention they know the gang leader screwed up the kidnapping he wanted to use to impress his bosses. Selling them after muting them is a possibility, but most likely they would be harvested for Intellect Devourers. In any case it's not something you escape from.

[Ganymede]

I'm running this module. There is no reason why this particular gang would keep the PCs alive (at least, alive after they've interrogated them) because they know their secret hideout, the Mind Flayer's presence, and the situation with Renaer. Not to mention they know the gang leader screwed up the kidnapping he wanted to use to impress his bosses. Selling them after muting them is a possibility, but most likely they would be harvested for Intellect Devourers. In any case it's not something you escape from.

The botched interrogation and mistaken identity is exactly why the PCs might survive. The half orc wizard is desperate to save face, and the overheard interrogation is perfect fodder for a potential bluff.

[Malifice]

In any case it's not something you escape from.

Thats a DM call though isnt it.

There is nothing stopping the Bad Guys from locking up the PCs, mocking them that they're going to be interrogated by the Mind Flayer boss later via psychic 'mind probe' later that eveneing (putting the fear of God into the players), before leaving them in a cell guarded by a single incompetent henchman (a cell that conveniently also has a long forgotten secret tunnel used years ago by another prisoner to escape, a NPC prisoner who just happens to have smuggled in a [way out] or whatever) or the Waterdavian police raid the cell, or what have you.

Its a cruel DM indeed who throws a deadly encounter at a 1st level party, then proceeds to murder them. Instead the whole scenario could be turned into something fun, with the PC's captors even sharing information with the prisoners (the old cliche of telling the captive hero their plan) before a thrilling escape by the PCs make the session kind of cool.

[AchuakScale]

Considering I have a group of 8 PCs, I might just let them fight the mind flayer.

[Wildarm]

Considering I have a group of 8 PCs, I might just let them fight the mind flayer.

Yeah, cull the weak(or foolish).

[Unoriginal]

Considering I have a group of 8 PCs, I might just let them fight the mind flayer.

They will die.

[Legendairy]

See I’m not a “kill my players at level 1 dm” the gang would have stripped them, jailed them, mocked them, and they would get a chance when the rivals raided the new place and get out by the skin of their teeth, knowing all the other stuff is really a mute point.

Having a bunch of level 1s (even 8 of them) fighting a mind flayer would most likely result in the mind flayer having a healthy snack, without tons of fiat or BAD rolls for the dm and great ones for the players, even then.....

[Bel-Torac]

You're supposed to fight the mind flayer in Xanathar's Lair if you pick him, and it still is a tough encounter for anyone who isn't good with int saves.

[mangosta71]

I've been thinking about this, and honestly an ID is a fairly lethal opponent for almost any party at level 1. After all, what party doesn't have a low-INT character as a melee type? The classic 4-person party is fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric. Of the 4, the only that's definitely going to be at range is the only one that's definitely got a high INT score. Fighters and clerics usually use INT as a dump stat. The rogue might use it as a dump stat unless he's planning to go Arcane Trickster. If the ID acts first, it has a reasonable chance of using its mind eating thing on a character that has single-digit INT.

This encounter is 5e's version of rocket tag. The more I think about it, the more I'm surprised and irritated by its presence in an official module.

[Ganymede]

Fighters and clerics usually use INT as a dump stat. The rogue might use it as a dump stat unless he's planning to go Arcane Trickster. If the ID acts first, it has a reasonable chance of using its mind eating thing on a character that has single-digit INT.

Outside of GITP's optimization threads, I really don't think this is true.

Anyways, Intellect Devourers can't make tactical decisions based on character build trends or other meta-information. Likely, it is going to act in a way to stymie whoever represents the most direct threat to its illithid master.

[Unoriginal]

I've been thinking about this, and honestly an ID is a fairly lethal opponent for almost any party at level 1. After all, what party doesn't have a low-INT character as a melee type? The classic 4-person party is fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric. Of the 4, the only that's definitely going to be at range is the only one that's definitely got a high INT score. Fighters and clerics usually use INT as a dump stat. The rogue might use it as a dump stat unless he's planning to go Arcane Trickster. If the ID acts first, it has a reasonable chance of using its mind eating thing on a character that has single-digit INT.

This encounter is 5e's version of rocket tag. The more I think about it, the more I'm surprised and irritated by its presence in an official module.

This encounter is 5e's version of a tough boss fight.

Gods and angels, people really are overselling the Intellect Devourer because of that "dump INT lol" mentality. Yes, it's deadly, but not that deadly.

It's not like the module isn't providing any help to the PCs.

[Willie the Duck]

I've been thinking about this, and honestly an ID is a fairly lethal opponent for almost any party at level 1. After all, what party doesn't have a low-INT character as a melee type? The classic 4-person party is fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric. Of the 4, the only that's definitely going to be at range is the only one that's definitely got a high INT score. Fighters and clerics usually use INT as a dump stat. The rogue might use it as a dump stat unless he's planning to go Arcane Trickster. If the ID acts first, it has a reasonable chance of using its mind eating thing on a character that has single-digit INT.

This encounter is 5e's version of rocket tag. The more I think about it, the more I'm surprised and irritated by its presence in an official module.

I think I still stand by my statement that you disagreed with. I'll also add some expansion- I think that the Intellect Devourer is absolutely overpowered, both for its CR and for this adventure, if played with omniscient tactical ability by a cagy DM. Which is to say, not as the animalistic creature that it is. So in effect, I agree, except that I think there is an unspoken rule that the designers and others are following that you are not, and within that unspoken rule is the difference between an appropriate or inappropriate challenge.

For reference:

I think there's a kind of universal consensus that they shouldn't be able to bodysnatch in the middle of active combat (despite no rules saying otherwise)--they do that when they ambush a low-int character off by themselves.

That consensus isn't quite universal.

[sambojin]

It's stuff like this why I tend to play horribly front-loaded builds.

I mean, I know there's better things than a V.human moon druid with PAM. But having little stat dependency (hey, you could even have Int if you want it), a magic weapon from shillelagh and two attacks a round the round after that with your bonus action + normal (and a reliable reaction attack) turns stuff like this into paste. You are the party's meat grinder.

Then you hit level 2. Now you're a CR1 wildshape beast (or all the scouting you want for stuff like Heist). You are still the party's meatgrinder, plus you're a HP sack now too. Or a looky-see'r.

Then you start becoming a caster at lvl3. But you've always got this backup low/no resource thing going for you. And it ignores resistances and immunities, especially dumb ones like a magically resistant lvl1 encounter. And you've got pretty good/versatile spells, so mostly your party is at fairly decent HP or can do their thing well enough that they'll feel powerful too. BC/advantage-giving spells are amazing, and that's mostly what you do. Give everyone +3-5 extra kickarse for any encounter, or DoT the hell out of them. From lvl1 onwards, you just choose two stats, prepare two spells that affects one or other, and hope you're using the right spell against the right enemy.

It's just *so* reliable, it's hard to be anything else for me these days. Well, except maybe a Firbolg moon druid, but you splat so much less at lvl1 it's just not the same. Especially not in the stupider "have some lvl1 combat" modules that are around. Waste of a feat? Probably. But not if you happily beat encounters like this, even played properly/hard-mode by the DM. Because never rerolling a character (or an entire party) probably makes it quite a good feat to take. Even if it's horribly underpowered by lvl3-5, not to mention later.


(and not useful to you now, nor with that party makeup, but Entangle does wonders against the ID encounter. It targets Str, but screws Dex saves and attacks and movement. Cast Entangle on it. Everyone murders the apprentice within a round or two. You all then proceed to obliterate the restrained ID, but you especially with your magic beatstick and Int proficiency. Druids are specifically good at some stuff. Anti-low-Str or Dex is one of them. And why even "bad" ranged cantrips like Create Bonfire and Sacred Flame aren't that bad for druids. You have a ridiculous amount of restrain-on-hit or restraining spells to screw Dex saves well).

[darknite]

I wish DotMM had insane encounters. Just ran a group through the first level. Had to juice it up because it was just such a cake walk. The non-combat stuff was fun - some light, intriguing puzzles - but the fighting was ridiculous for Tier 2 PCs - bugbears, goblins, bandits...

[Unoriginal]

I wish DotMM had insane encounters. Just ran a group through the first level. Had to juice it up because it was just such a cake walk. The non-combat stuff was fun - some light, intriguing puzzles - but the fighting was ridiculous for Tier 2 PCs - bugbears, goblins, bandits...

It's just the beginning, darknite. The insane encounters are a few levels below.

[darknite]

It's just the beginning, darknite. The insane encounters are a few levels below.

I suppose. But it's part of a trend I've noticed with 5e D&D Hardcovers - and I've played or DM'd them all. With a couple of notable exceptions, their encounters-as-written are tepid for the levels they purportedly serve.

[Unoriginal]

I suppose. But it's part of a trend I've noticed with 5e D&D Hardcovers - and I've played or DM'd them all. With a couple of notable exceptions, their encounters-as-written are tepid for the levels they purportedly serve.

Question, how many PCs do you have?

[darknite]

Question, how many PCs do you have?

I run AL at the FLGS. So far it's been a core of 4 with a total of 5-7 at the table per session.