Fighter/Sorc or Hexblade/Sorc for a melee gish?

[Grimmonsoon]

UPDATE: I was previously looking for sorcadin advice, but having pitched it to my DM he's rejected it for being 'too good'. My group also already has a very tanky paladin and while she's happy for me to also play one, my DM has taken the (probably quite wise) decision of disallowing a second one for the sake of not stepping on her toes. Thus, ANY build involving a paladin multiclass is longer helpful to me, sorry!


I am still trying to figure out the best combination to play that will allow me to be a decent gish. I usually play squishy rogues or casters and want to try something different, but also find straightforward fighters and barbarians quite dull to play, so I need something that has a few options aside from 'hit the thing'.

RP concept: chivalrous knightly type afflicted with (insert leprosy-like disease here). He was saved on his deathbed via some connection to the Shadowfell, whether that's a pact (hexblade) or exposure (sorcerer) or both. Unfortunately he still looks like a plague victim, so he keeps himself covered up in armour. I'm trying to play up the cursed knight vibe without the character himself being dark and broody.

This character will use standard array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8). I can use Xanathar's and Volos, but no UA. My GM has ruled out being a paladin, so I figure I can either go for a fighter/sorc for the heavy armour and martial proficiency, or hexblade/sorcerer for a medium armour build. I'm starting VHuman so I could also take heavy armour prof. as a feat but this seems to be generally ill-advised). I am NOT going sword and board because that's very boring - planning for either greatsword or glaive. I don't want the character to feel too squishy, though I might be able to offset the slightly lower armour class with magical BS. I'm aware I could be a straight hexblade too, but the lack of spell slots makes me sad. We also already have a GOO tome/blaster caster type in the group and it'd be nice to have a few different spell options than him.

Depending on if my current character dies horribly next session or I can peacefully swap him out at the end of our campaign (Lost Mines, though I suspect we've gotten way off the campaign book), I'll be joining somewhere between levels 5-7. Our DM wants a homebrew plot after and I think we could get to level 20, but we've only hit level 5 after a year of playing (yes, I know) so this is going to be veeeery slow. For that reason, I'd rather have a build that's fun to play now, not at level 12 or whatever.

There are a few build caveats for roleplay purposes, which may affect which combination is the best choice here:


I'd like him to wear heavy armour but could make do with half plate if you think it's better
I'd much prefer him to have a greatsword or glaive than a sword and board. The tradeoff in AC is part of the reason I'm keener on heavy armour than medium. This would mean at least 3 levels in hexblade to get a 2-handed pact weapon – or just having a high STR as well as CHA, but it would be nice to focus on CHA exclusively.
Access to higher level spells would be killer, but it's more important to me that he's a beast in melee, so if that means giving up sorc levels for fighter or hexblade so be it
If he goes sorcerer, it must be Shadow Sorcerer for backstory reasons (and also because hound of ill omen is just too neat)
If he goes warlock please, for the love of all that is holy, don't suggest an eldritch blast build. I've played a blaster caster before and I can't bring myself to do it again.


Ok, so! For a melee gish without the sword and board, what would you suggest? And what level split do you think I should go for? Again, he'll start at about level 6, and the campaign will go at a snail's pace towards level 20.




Hello, I'm trying to make a gish build along the lines of the legendary sorcadin, but hexblade is also a mighty temptation. I've looked up numerous guides and still can't make my mind up, so I'm seeking some advice.

RP concept: knightly type afflicted with (insert leprosy-like disease here). He was saved on his deathbed via some connection to the Shadowfell, whether that's a pact (hexblade) or exposure (sorcerer). Unfortunately he still looks like a plague victim, so he keeps himself covered up in plate armour. I'm hoping that being a fundamentally kind and charismatic character will soften his edgelordier elements.

This character will use standard array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8). I can use Xanathar's and Volos, but no UA. My GM will allow multi-classing, but may be less keen on combining three classes, so it needs to be a sorcadin OR waradin OR sorlock. I think I can also go for straight hexblade, but I'd like to see if multiclass options will offer more fun.

Depending on if my character dies horribly next session or I can peacefully swap him out at the end of our campaign (Lost Mines, though I suspect we've gotten way off the campaign book), I'll be joining somewhere between levels 5-7. Our DM wants a homebrew plot after and I think we could get to level 20, but we've only hit level 5 after a year of playing (yes, I know) so this is going to be veeeery slow. For that reason, I'd rather have a build that's fun to play now, not at level 12 or whatever.

There are a few build caveats for roleplay purposes, which may affect which combination is the best choice here:


I'd like him to wear heavy armour but could make do with half plate if you think it's better
I'd much prefer him to have a greatsword or glaive than a sword n' board. The tradeoff in AC is part of the reason I'm keener on heavy armour than medium. This would mean at least 3 levels in hexblade to get a 2-handed pact weapon – or just having a high STR as well as CHA, but it would be nice to focus on CHA exclusively.
Access to higher level spells would be killer for super smites or cool utility, but it's more important to me that he's a beast in melee, so if that means giving up on sorcerer so be it
If he goes paladin, he must be Oath of Devotion. I'm aware that Vengeance is better, but the character isn't vengeful. Oath of the Crown is a possibility too, but I feel like Devotion's channel ability works better with great weapon master (assuming I ever get to pick that up)
If he goes sorcerer, it must be Shadow Sorcerer for backstory reasons (and also because hound of ill omen is just too neat)
If he goes warlock please, for the love of all that is holy, don't suggest an eldritch blast build. I've played a blaster caster before and I can't bring myself to do it again.


In my group of five, there are two other players whose toes I'd rather not step on:

We actually already have a paladin. She's an OotA sword and board / protection fighting style / very tanky, supporty and talky. Not that big on smiting. I think she'll be ok with another paladin if they're not doing the same job as her. May negate the need to get to paladin 6 as, since I'll be next to her in most fights, I can get her aura and I don't think auras from multiple paladins stack
We also already have a warlock! He's a GOO/tome blaster caster type and likes pulling enemies around the battlefield. Again he's more about support than mega damage and should be ok with a hexblade warlock.


Ok, so! For a melee gish without the sword and board, what would you suggest? And what level split do you think I should go for? Again, he'll start at about level 6, and the campaign will go at a snail's pace towards level 20.

[Nhorianscum]

Sounds like you have it all figured out tbh. With those restrictions (comes online in tier 1 or early 2, big weapon, heavy armor) you're looking at a straight up paladin 2/SorcX if you have access to the scagtrips.

Without scagtrips Hexblade dipping sorc for a few levels (17/3) or the classic 6/14 paladin are more appealing. Aura vs a 9th level arcanum is the choice here. (Just pull an innate plate race for hexblade of you want that).

The latter two take longer to get all their gimmics online, and push hound back to cl12 or "never"

[Grimmonsoon]

Sounds like you have it all figured out tbh. With those restrictions (comes online in tier 1 or early 2, big weapon, heavy armor) you're looking at a straight up paladin 2/SorcX if you have access to the scagtrips.

Without scagtrips Hexblade dipping sorc for a few levels (17/3) or the classic 6/14 paladin are more appealing. Aura vs a 9th level arcanum is the choice here. (Just pull an innate plate race for hexblade of you want that).

The latter two take longer to get all their gimmics online, and push hound back to cl12 or "never"


I guess I'm mostly just not sure whether to go pala/sorc or pala/hexblade, since I feel like I need pala to be decent in melee - but I could be wrong about that. I am ok with medium armour, but I feel like you almost have to use sword n' board to make up for the AC loss, when I'd rather hit things with a big weapon. Depending on the class, maybe they have magical or invocation ways of boosting AC? There's perma mage armour from warlock, but then I'd need a decent DEX as well as 13 STR.

The thing with paladin 6 aura is that we have (or soon will have rather) a paladin who already has it, so pala 5 / sorc x might work better. I then get extra attack as well... but by not going hexblade, I miss out on charisma SADness. But then again if you're shooting for a 2-handed warrior instead of a sword n' board, how important is heavy armour? I would've thought very, and if you need at least 15 STR then pushing it further isn't too big of a deal. It's one more stat to get to 20 though.

Aha, I like the hound of ill omen but it's not crucial to the build, I just think it's cool :biggrin:

EDIT: by scagtrips I assume you mean booming blade and green flame blade? I can use those, yeah. I've read that goes some way towards compensating for a lack of extra attack.

[Guy Lombard-O]

I guess I'm mostly just not sure whether to go pala/sorc or pala/hexblade, since I feel like I need pala to be decent in melee - but I could be wrong about that. I am ok with medium armour, but I feel like you almost have to use sword n' board to make up for the AC loss, when I'd rather hit things with a big weapon. Depending on the class, maybe they have magical or invocation ways of boosting AC?

It really sounds like the only things you really care about from the paladin are the smite ability and the heavy armor.

Maybe you could start vhuman, take GWM right off, first 5 levels hexblade/blade pact, take heavily armored feat at 4th, thirsting blade & eldritch smite at 5, then sorcerer X? Since you're starting at 6, you won't have to suffer through the weak/build levels, and can beast it up in combat right off.

[Nhorianscum]

I guess I'm mostly just not sure whether to go pala/sorc or pala/hexblade, since I feel like I need pala to be decent in melee - but I could be wrong about that. I am ok with medium armour, but I feel like you almost have to use sword n' board to make up for the AC loss, when I'd rather hit things with a big weapon. Depending on the class, maybe they have magical or invocation ways of boosting AC? There's perma mage armour from warlock, but then I'd need a decent DEX as well as 13 STR.

The thing with paladin 6 aura is that we have (or soon will have rather) a paladin who already has it, so pala 5 / sorc x might work better. I then get extra attack as well... but by not going hexblade, I miss out on charisma SADness. But then again if you're shooting for a 2-handed warrior instead of a sword n' board, how important is heavy armour? I would've thought very, and if you need at least 15 STR then pushing it further isn't too big of a deal. It's one more stat to get to 20 though.

Aha, I like the hound of ill omen but it's not crucial to the build, I just think it's cool :biggrin:

EDIT: by scagtrips I assume you mean booming blade and green flame blade? I can use those, yeah. I've read that goes some way towards compensating for a lack of extra attack.

Yeah with defense style you get 19+5+2 AC instead of 20+5+2 AC. The main gain to shield is +X later, just carry a shield for when you want this. You want a sidearm regardless for grappling (not your main shtic but with 16 str and enlarge person access it's a thing str builds get to do, and a useful thing)

Sorc already gets 2-4 attacks/round. Don't sweat it you go paladin 6-7 for auras and hexblade 12 for lifedrinker. 2nd attack is negligable.

Str boosters/wand of the war mage. One of these is gonna drop eventually just start with VHuman @ Res (con) and don't sweat being a big +1 behind. SAD on 2 handers takes a 3 level dip. This is almost a full ASI delayed. The gain here is late, and exremely minimal as by the time this kicks in the most common drop in the game (str booster), a +decent weapon, war mage wand, and hound are all likely up and running. If nothing good drops by the time SAD is relevant. Grab xanthars and flip to auction house rules.

Talk with your GM about the interaction between skagtrips and GWM's power attack and GWF's reroll before you take it.

[Grimmonsoon]

It really sounds like the only things you really care about from the paladin are the smite ability and the heavy armor.

Maybe you could start vhuman, take GWM right off, first 5 levels hexblade/blade pact, take heavily armored feat at 4th, thirsting blade & eldritch smite at 5, then sorcerer X? Since you're starting at 6, you won't have to suffer through the weak/build levels, and can beast it up in combat right off.


Could be an option. Do you think hexblade/sorc would work ok? It has synergy to me, but every guide I've read builds as as more of a stand at the back and cast type.

I'm not too fussed about the flavour of paladin no, particularly as we already have one in the group. I did think about heavily armoured but every guide says it's a waste of a feat or ASI :frown: That's why I wondered if I could make do with medium armour, but without +2 AC, I'm just not sure if I can.

The fact that I'd be starting at level 6 is a nice bonus, yeah! Sorcadin is a bit of a magikarp build to me (in that it'll become a gyarados... eventually).

[Keravath]

If you are set on heavy armor then the only options are paladin at first level or taking the heavy armor feat. Personally, I would just go hexblade warlock and use the best medium armor you can get since you only lose 1AC.

I curently have a hexblade warlock melee build that has worked ok up to level 4 ... he just made level 5. He is fairly heavily focused on melee damage though he has eldritch blast for the times when ranged attacks are needed.

Variant human (standard array) ... pole arm master at first level. (If you are using point buy you can start with 15 con and 10 wis with a plan to take resilient con at some point).
8 str
14 dex
14 con 13 +1
10 int
12 wis
16 cha 15+1

4th level he took great weapon master.

Invocations in my case at level 5 are improved pact weapon, thirsting blade and devils sight.

From level 3 onward he has "summoned the shadows" when appropriate going into combat (cast darkness) and then maneuvered around the melee targets using the 10' reach of a glaive. Between movement and reach this has caused a minimal effect on party members ... if your GOO warlock also has devils sight then it can synergize really well.

Ultimately, the build will go to at least 12 warlock for lifedrinker though I plan to add some levels of shadow sorcerer to increase utility since I find that warlocks have too few spell slots. I also won't take eldritch smite until much later since warlock spell slots are valuable. At level 7 he will probably switch over to using shadows of moil for advantage on attacks though darkness has a huge amount of utility in countering gaze attacks (for most gaze attacks from basilisk, medusa, vampire ... you have to be able to see the creature and they have to be able to see you ... in many cases darkness can protect your party from some very nasty attacks).

Also, properly positioning darkness can let your melee characters get out of melee without taking op attacks ... and it can be used to eliminate the disadvantage of ranged attacks at adjacent targets as well as several other reasons for advantage and disadvantage like ranged attacks at prone targets (All RAW but up to your DM how he wants to play it). Enemy barbarians can be prevented from using reckless attacks (though a barbarian on your side who can't see in magical darkness would be similarly inhibited)

So ... I think you can easily make a melee focused heavy weapon dark knight kind of character based on a hexblade warlock with some levels of sorcerer (shadow?) thrown in ... though if you want to be a tortured soul you could be a divine soul sorcerer instead ... conflicted over the deal they had to make to save their life.

[Guy Lombard-O]

If you are set on heavy armor then the only options are paladin at first level or taking the heavy armor feat. Personally, I would just go hexblade warlock and use the best medium armor you can get since you only lose 1AC.

Honestly, that's probably great advice. Especially because it allows you to dump Str and put your ability point buy into better things like Con & Cha (for the Hexblade build). With that build, you've already ditched paladin, so don't need the 13 Str to multiclass anyway.


Oh, and you should probably take that 1 level of sorcerer first instead of at 6th for the Con save.

[MagneticKitty]

Might I suggest the revenant ua race? Could take care of the return to life motif. Normally they are vengent based against something they died for or what killed them. Maybe if it's a widespread disease that wiped out more than just your character their goal is to end/cure the disease.
But maybe a shadow fell deity decided to bring you back to serve their purposes (raven queen warlock) or hexblade.

I'm partial to bardadin myself.
And i don't see why you'd have to cover yourself in armor, you could use a cloak too over top light armor to hide instead


Edit: also college of whispers bard has smites. You could go hexlock 5 (multi attack and +1 weapon invocations) blade lock / whispers 15 for best possible smites. Cha for attacks, 14 Dex and medium armor
Heavy cha weapons.
Also tenser's transformation or the ranger guardian of nature spells for super melee forms through magical secrets

[Alexwellace]

Consider the HexBard, Which is a College of Swords hard with some Warlock mixed in. I'm currently playing one and I think it's the combat focussed true gish that comes online the fastest. I started with 4 bard 1 Warlock, took bard to 6 for extra attack, And I'm about to level up to 2 Warlock for invocations. Think I'll pick up pact of the chain eventually but my main focus will be bard.

I admit it doesn't do some of the things you're suggesting, like use a polarm well or be in heavy armour, but it does have some advantages as well.

Firstly it doesn't stand on the toes of the Paladin or Warlock, basically everything you do is unique. It doesn't have heavy armour but it does have Single Attribute Dependency, rechargeable Shield Spell Slots and d8 defensive flourish, which combine to give you an A.C. when you need it considerably higher than a Paladin in plate can get.

It's very much short rest based, with Warlock slots and inspiration coming back on short rests, you fill a different niche to other gishes , gaining more from short rests that Hexlocks get.

It also gives you more support options than other gishes, since you can use basic inspiration normally and bard has some great buff/debuff spells.

Finally you can play it as dark as you'd like, with skills and expertise in anything, picking up spells like Bane and Bestow Curse and those all important magical secrets at 10.

Might not fit the great weapon vibe, but still worth consideration to add some variety to the group while keeping the fish ideals

[Grimmonsoon]

If you are set on heavy armor then the only options are paladin at first level or taking the heavy armor feat. Personally, I would just go hexblade warlock and use the best medium armor you can get since you only lose 1AC. [...]

The heavy armour is not strictly mandatory, it's because without it I would feel more pushed towards sword and board instead of 2-handed, which I'm much keener on, because S&B is... boring. If it's only -1 AC worth of difference though, I might take it and dump STR like you said.

The darkness / devil sight wombo combo isn't really an option. My fellow players are definitely the type to throw things at me across the table if I impose disadvantage on them, and our warlock doesn't have devil sight either. If I go shadow sorc, darkness is something I'd save for utility, giving cover to the squishies or to pick people up if the party goes down, but if I start using it as my go-to in combat to crit-fish my DM is going to get tired of me pretty quickly I think.

Even so, pure hexblade is an option! Agreed that warlocks need higher level spells slots though.



Might I suggest the revenant ua race? Could take care of the return to life motif. Normally they are vengent based against something they died for or what killed them. Maybe if it's a widespread disease that wiped out more than just your character their goal is to end/cure the disease. [...]

Revenant is a cool concept but it's not quite what I'm after, and UA is firmly forbidden by my GM. Also, see build caveats - I'm not making a dark and angry character, so vengeance is off the table.
Bard also has synergy with sorc/hexblade/paladin and is worth considering, but I do feel it takes me away from damage-dealer and towards support, and this group already has so many support options.



Consider the HexBard [...] I admit it doesn't do some of the things you're suggesting, like use a polarm well or be in heavy armour, but it does have some advantages as well.

Interesting, but this is a very supporty build and again, my group is not hurting for this at the moment. Also it's 1h weapons, which is back to sword and board, really.

[Keravath]

The heavy armour is not strictly mandatory, it's because without it I would feel more pushed towards sword and board instead of 2-handed, which I'm much keener on, because S&B is... boring. If it's only -1 AC worth of difference though, I might take it and dump STR like you said.

The darkness / devil sight wombo combo isn't really an option. My fellow players are definitely the type to throw things at me across the table if I impose disadvantage on them, and our warlock doesn't have devil sight either. If I go shadow sorc, darkness is something I'd save for utility, giving cover to the squishies or to pick people up if the party goes down, but if I start using it as my go-to in combat to crit-fish my DM is going to get tired of me pretty quickly I think.

Even so, pure hexblade is an option! Agreed that warlocks need higher level spells slots though.

...




I just wanted to point out that in most situations (RAW) Darkness does not impose disadvantage on your allies ... it usually just prevents both advantage and disadvantage for everyone who can't see through it.

The way the vision rules work (unless your DM has modified them) ... if you can't see your target you have disadvantage ... if your target can not see you then you have advantage. If neither can see the other then the attacks are a straight roll since the advantage and disadvantage cancel.

As a result, most of the time, using darkness in combat does not negatively affect the attack rolls of your team mates or your opponents since they can't see each other (it is only when a creature can see through the darkness ... in which case the creature that can see has advantage and the one that can't see has disadvantage). However, if your team mates or the opponents have other methods to obtain advantage or apply disadvantage, darkness will shut these down since reasons for advantage and disadvantage are not cumulative.

[Grimmonsoon]

I just wanted to point out that in most situations (RAW) Darkness does not impose disadvantage on your allies ... it usually just prevents both advantage and disadvantage for everyone who can't see through it.

The way the vision rules work (unless your DM has modified them) ... if you can't see your target you have disadvantage ... if your target can not see you then you have advantage. If neither can see the other then the attacks are a straight roll since the advantage and disadvantage cancel.

As a result, most of the time, using darkness in combat does not negatively affect the attack rolls of your team mates or your opponents since they can't see each other (it is only when a creature can see through the darkness ... in which case the creature that can see has advantage and the one that can't see has disadvantage). However, if your team mates or the opponents have other methods to obtain advantage or apply disadvantage, darkness will shut these down since reasons for advantage and disadvantage are not cumulative.


I... did not know that. I still think my teammates (and possibly my DM) will throw things at me across the table though, because they don't want to fight in a big inky cloud. And it still feels like a d*ck move to give myself advantage while ensuring no-one else can have it.

[MagneticKitty]

Edit: also college of whispers bard has smites. You could go hexlock 5 (multi attack and +1 weapon invocations) blade lock / whispers 15 for best possible smites. Cha for attacks, 14 Dex and medium armor
Heavy cha weapons.
Also tenser's transformation or the ranger guardian of nature spells for super melee forms through magical secrets

If you just want max power smites paladin 6 / whisper bard x
Or paladin 2 / bard x for single attack max smite
Since you can double smite and bard can ranged smite for more versatility. You'd be mostly using bard slots for smithing and self buffs. And bards have more durability than sorcerers. Don't even have to max charisma.

[Keravath]

I... did not know that. I still think my teammates (and possibly my DM) will throw things at me across the table though, because they don't want to fight in a big inky cloud. And it still feels like a d*ck move to give myself advantage while ensuring no-one else can have it.

Yep ... depends on the table. :)

However, in practice, if there is enough space to move around a bit, I have found with darkness up I can walk forward 10' to 15' attack with 10' reach and then retreat 10 to 15'. This usually gives me advantage on attacks without causing a party uproar since they can still see the bad guys :)

In my case, it is thematic since shadow saved him and his sister from a nasty situation as children so he has always been closely aligned with shadows and summoning darkness to cloak his movements is second nature ... almost like calling an old friend.

I also use darkness+devils sight on a rogue/warlock but in that case the character is ranged and it is easier to stay out of everyone's way when needed (though in that party there are 3 warlocks with devils sight (party is 7) so the synergy is actually really good).

[Nhorianscum]

You don't use darkness just for advantage.

You use it for all the reasons spamming visual obstruction is really really good AND advantage.

[Citan]

Hello, I'm trying to make a gish build along the lines of the legendary sorcadin, but hexblade is also a mighty temptation. I've looked up numerous guides and still can't make my mind up, so I'm seeking some advice.

RP concept: knightly type afflicted with (insert leprosy-like disease here). He was saved on his deathbed via some connection to the Shadowfell, whether that's a pact (hexblade) or exposure (sorcerer). Unfortunately he still looks like a plague victim, so he keeps himself covered up in plate armour. I'm hoping that being a fundamentally kind and charismatic character will soften his edgelordier elements.

This character will use standard array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8). I can use Xanathar's and Volos, but no UA. My GM will allow multi-classing, but may be less keen on combining three classes, so it needs to be a sorcadin OR waradin OR sorlock. I think I can also go for straight hexblade, but I'd like to see if multiclass options will offer more fun.

Depending on if my character dies horribly next session or I can peacefully swap him out at the end of our campaign (Lost Mines, though I suspect we've gotten way off the campaign book), I'll be joining somewhere between levels 5-7. Our DM wants a homebrew plot after and I think we could get to level 20, but we've only hit level 5 after a year of playing (yes, I know) so this is going to be veeeery slow. For that reason, I'd rather have a build that's fun to play now, not at level 12 or whatever.

There are a few build caveats for roleplay purposes, which may affect which combination is the best choice here:


I'd like him to wear heavy armour but could make do with half plate if you think it's better
I'd much prefer him to have a greatsword or glaive than a sword n' board. The tradeoff in AC is part of the reason I'm keener on heavy armour than medium. This would mean at least 3 levels in hexblade to get a 2-handed pact weapon – or just having a high STR as well as CHA, but it would be nice to focus on CHA exclusively.
Access to higher level spells would be killer for super smites or cool utility, but it's more important to me that he's a beast in melee, so if that means giving up on sorcerer so be it
If he goes paladin, he must be Oath of Devotion. I'm aware that Vengeance is better, but the character isn't vengeful. Oath of the Crown is a possibility too, but I feel like Devotion's channel ability works better with great weapon master (assuming I ever get to pick that up)
If he goes sorcerer, it must be Shadow Sorcerer for backstory reasons (and also because hound of ill omen is just too neat)
If he goes warlock please, for the love of all that is holy, don't suggest an eldritch blast build. I've played a blaster caster before and I can't bring myself to do it again.


In my group of five, there are two other players whose toes I'd rather not step on:

We actually already have a paladin. She's an OotA sword and board / protection fighting style / very tanky, supporty and talky. Not that big on smiting. I think she'll be ok with another paladin if they're not doing the same job as her. May negate the need to get to paladin 6 as, since I'll be next to her in most fights, I can get her aura and I don't think auras from multiple paladins stack
We also already have a warlock! He's a GOO/tome blaster caster type and likes pulling enemies around the battlefield. Again he's more about support than mega damage and should be ok with a hexblade warlock.


Ok, so! For a melee gish without the sword and board, what would you suggest? And what level split do you think I should go for? Again, he'll start at about level 6, and the campaign will go at a snail's pace towards level 20.
Hi!

Seems you have pretty good ideas on the core checklist of your character, that's good. ;)
First off, little disclaimer: Vengeance is not "better" than Devotion. Not at all. It is more efficient in a particular context (single-target focus) in general, and is more efficient at high-level as far as melee goes, when comparing single-class, thanks mainly to Haste. Which is irrelevant for multiclass builds that can get Haste another way.

With that out...
AND the fact you already have a Paladin, AND a Warlock, AND would probably be limited to dual-class, yet want to play a heavy melee guy...

1. Talk with players beforehand -> assumption they are fine with whatever you build because you'll play differently.
- dual-class: DevotionPaladin 5-6-7 / Shadow Sorcerer X: GWM build, so you'll want Extra Attack, pick Resilient: Constitution and Haste from Sorcerer. Getting another Aura of Protection is not necessarily a bad thing, since you may have situations in which party is spreaded around. And the "immune to charmed" Aura can be either situational or very powerful depending on the type of enemies.
- tri-class: add Fighter 2 for Action Surge to buff yourself and still get one Attack in important fights.

Tri-class alternative: Devotion Paladin 3 / Hexblade Tome Warlock 3-5-7 / Shadow Sorcerer X: you'd rely mainly on Booming Blade while keeping a Bless (so very high chance to hit regardless of advantage/disadvantage) or Darkness (note it requires you to act "solo" otherwise your party will hate you) with option to Quicken when you want nova. Advantage of this build is that you can use Shadow Blade instead at low level until you decide to pick GWM. How high to go Warlock would be mostly depending on the level of the spell you use the most, or if you want short-rest powered smites.

2. Assumption they would prefer you picking very different setup.
- dual-class Paladin 3 / Whisper Bards X: this one is a really long-plan build: idea is to play "as a Rogue", picking Mobile feat ASAP, using weapon cantrips + Whisper's (very decent) bonus damage, then pick Haste and Find Familiar as 10th level secret, then Simulacrum and Tenser's Transformation. Problem of this is actually the dual-class, 3 levels of Paladin are a huge delay, so it may be better to actually to plain Bard. This long term idea is to get Haste put on you by another (Familiar with Ring, or Simulacrum), and stack Tenser's Transformation on this.
- tri-class: add one level of Hexblade Warlock or 3-4 levels of Sorcerer for easier access to cantrips.

Alternative: Fighter 1 / Abjuration Wizard X: same idea, but much easier to build. Plus you can take care of many rituals.

[Sception]

While it would need some re-fluffing with your DM, have you considered Oathbreaker from the DMG? By default it exists to represent paladins of have committed themselves to the forces of evil, but mechanically it also works particularly well for paladins who have been afflicted by an evil curse like the Simon Belmont from Castlevania or Gutts from Berserk. The taint of evil infects the paladins powers, making them dark and spooky, and their aura enhances not just their own tainted strength, but also that of the enemies they fight against - evil fiends and undead that are drawn to them like moths to a flame.

Given the premise your character being afflicted by some sort of curse or plague, nearly dying, their soul falling into the shadowfell, only to be called back to life changed, drawing a portion of that plane's dark magic with them, this seems like a particularly good mechanical fit, albeit, again, one that would require some narrative deviations from the default fluff.

I played a character like this once, using Oathbreaker to represent being tainted by evil magic from without rather than embracing it from within. It was a fallen aasimar paladin tainted by the power of darkness not because they strayed from the path of righteousness, but rather because their celestial patron fell to darkness after siring them, with the now visibly tainted paladin questing in the hopes of one day either redeeming their celestial patron (becoming a protector aasimar / devotion paladin) or if that proved impossible at least putting them down (becoming a scourge aasimar / vengeance paladin). The campaign never got for enough for my paladin to encounter their patron, but while it lasted the character was quite engaging, and the oathbreaker mechanics were particularly engaging.

If your Dm's cool with it, then Oathbreaker on its own, or any blend of Oathbreaker with Hexblade warlock and/or Shadow sorcerer would work very well. Pal8/War12 and Pal8/War3/Sor being my favorite splits for this combination, though not necessarily in those specific orders. Given your preference for two handed weapons you should probably aim for at least three levels of warlock should be aimed for early, either before anything else if you're ok with and have the stats for medium armor (which, using standard array, you probably don't. Remember paladin multiclass still requires 13 strength regardless), or after a single level of paladin for heavy armor proficiency. Honestly though, if you are ok with medium armor (which, again, you probably shouldn't be, I don't see how you're going to get to at least 13 strength, 14 dex, and 16 cha without cutting unacceptably into your con score), then you might want to take a sorcerer level first, assuming a build that takes sorcerer levels at all, for the con proficiency, since hexblade 1 grants medium armor and shield proficiency regardless.

If you are going for heavy armor, you'll need a 15 strength long term, so if you were playing point buy you kind of might as well go for a 16 to start, which is high enough that you could afford to put off the warlock levels for a good while regardless, so honestly the order of your levels is not an especially huge issue for this build usually. Just a straight paladin 8 (you'll want 7 for the aura, at which point you might as well grab the second ASI), Warlock 3 works perfectly fine, and you can just decide after that whether you want to keep on with hexblade, go back to paladin, or shift over to shadow sorcerer, or even sidestep into bard, with any of the above being valid options.

But since you're using standard array things get harder, since you can't get that 16 strength without making some serious sacrifices - either cutting into cha (something no hexadin should be doing) or giving up on bonus vuman feat for GWM/PAM (by either taking another race or by dedicating your vuman bonus feat to a +str or +cha half feat instead). And even if you are a vuman settling for 15 str 16 cha you're still looking at living with a 13 con, which is kind of painful for a melee build, until you're able to take resilient using an asi. Which again either delays cha progression (boo! hiss!) or has to wait until level 12 at the earliest (ouch!).

...

So if you want GWM or PAM at all you should absolutely pick vuman, because even with hexblade (eventually) solving the MADness issue, you still have a lot of pressure on your ASIs, between cha being just super critical (saves, spells, damage multiple times over, attacks eventually), and really wanting to shore up your con saves at some point so that you can reliably use concentration buffs while still trading blows in melee.

Honestly, that's probably the case regardless of whether your GM okays oathbreaker.

And definitely think really super hard before taking both GWM *and* PAM. They're great feats, especially together (and/or with sentinel, if you lean into more of a protective combat role), but again, the competition for your ASI's is /super/ fierce, and your stat spread, while viable, is not the most favorable for a build that has heavy mechanical reliance on each of strength, con, and cha, and next to none on dex, int, and wis. Apart from the role-play obnoxiousness of 8s in both int and wis, any sort of paladin/cha caster multiclass really wants that super min maxed 15/8/15/8/8/15 spread, which is about as far from the smooth stat curve of standard array as you can get.

Regardless, anything that delays a hexadin's charisma progression /really/ needs to be working overtime to justify itself. And neither is as good as you would normally expect them to be on a hexbreaker. Between hex, hexblade's curse, shield, endure elements, opportunity attacks, fiendish rebuke, the handful of decent smite spells, and metamagic quicken if you dip into sorcerer, you'll honestly have good uses for your minor action and reaction most turns even without PAM. And as for GWM, between hex warrior, oathbreaker aura, spell buffs, and eventually maybe improved divine smite or lifedrinker, you're already going to have some solid damage bonuses to your melee attacks, and the higher your static damage already is, the worse of a deal it is to trade accuracy for even more damage, since misses are more painful and the extra damage more often end up being overkill.

...

So personally, I'd go with either a greatsword and GWM from vuman or a glaive and PAM from vuman, but not take the other feat until after maxing Cha AND shoring up conentration saves via resilient con, which would put the second feat of the combo back to level 16 at the earliest, probably later given multiclassing.

Or rather, that's what I'd do if I were making a two handed hexadin, personally I prefer sword and board for this build, despite the struggle with spell components that causes, since hex warrior comes online faster that way and it frees you up to either pick another race or, if you stick with vuman, to grab resilient con (something you need long term regardless), heavy armor mastery (which is just fantastic in the early game, and most campaigns don't last long enough for it to fall behind), or something that's just more fun and stylish, like sentinel, inspiring leader, or find familiar (via arcane initiate or ritual caster).

Resilient Con and Heavy Armor Mastery in particular are good ideas, as they would allow a vuman to start with 15 strength (allowing you to wear any armor), 14 con (for ok HP and con saves) and 16 charisma (for max cha mod from level 1). You might consider one of these instead of PAM or GWM even if you do stick with a two handed weapon, pushing any offensive feat back to level 12 at the earliest (if you take resilient con at level 1). Just depends on how critical you feel those feats are to your character concept, i guess.

[Grimmonsoon]

Oh man, that Oathbreaker idea is awesome. I think I could convince my DM to let me play a 'good' oathbreaker (he's overall pretty lenient of my ideas now matter how edgy). BUT...

He had a look at sorcadin after I brought it up and ruled it out for being too powerful :biggrin: The paladin player herself says she doesn't mind a second paladin, but I can definitely see mega-smiting treading on her fun, so I can't begrudge this ruling. He's happy with any other multiclass mix.

SO! I'm left with the options of...

Fighter 1 / sorc x (won't be CHA SAD but gets me heavy armour, STR/CON saves and a fighting style right off the bat, plus a nice self heal. And action surge if I take another level later, very nice)
Hexblade x / sorc x (5/15 or 3/17? Seems like a tossup between having extra attack or burning sorcery points on green flame blade/booming blade)
Pure hexblade (mechanically probably the best, but will end up with the same set of spells as our current warlock - and being GOO he's likely to go for the shadowy-themed spells as well)



A few people have suggested bards and wizards and such and this is all very well, but it's getting away from the cursed knight concept I'm going for - and our group is REALLY rp-heavy (read: it took us a year to get to level 5) so the theme is pretty important.

[Skylivedk]

I'm playing a straight hexblade currently. I highly dislike the very few spell slots and would look into sorc maybe later... But then again, Hexblade actually single classes very nicely. I usually love wonky builds, but I've not really identified a great time to dip out of Warlock.

If you have a abjuration wizard, a cavalier, ancestral barbarian or a cleric, you don't mind the slightly low AC. It might even be in your favour due to Armour of Agathys being so damn beastly once you have resistance. Medium armour + 14 dex is OK'ish. With mirror image, AoA and later the Hexblade ability to negate hits, you're pretty good. Also, Darkness+Devil Sight (later Shadows of Moil) ensure that you are running around with advantage on hit and disadvantage against you most of the time. I suggest putting a necklace around a wizard familiar and have it be your flying cloud of Darkness. Most of the time it can sit on your shoulder/be in backpack, but every once in a while it's super nifty to reposition the Darkness away from you to block line of sight for casters/ranged enemies.

If you go dex, SAD CHA build, be aware that you can't Pala later. On the plus side, you are in line for a nice half-elf (drow?) build with really really good stats and Elven Accuracy at lvl 8 (bringing your CHA to 18) + GWM at 4 for very strong damage and consistent damage. Hex is nice in the beginning, but falls off unless you sorc dip... Which is soooo tempting; Shield, Absorb Elements and Hex with the low level slots and Misty Step+Mirror Image with the level 2 slots. Shadow Sorc is a great choice though for the build. It gives you the equivalent of the Darkness+Devil's sight combo and you can free up your evocation for something else (Smite, teleport to a cursed enemy or disguise self at will - great with the cantrip "Friends").

[Nhorianscum]

I'm playing a straight hexblade currently. I highly dislike the very few spell slots and would look into sorc maybe later... But then again, Hexblade actually single classes very nicely. I usually love wonky builds, but I've not really identified a great time to dip out of Warlock.

A one level dip at pretty much any time for origin+casting 1st level spells with 1st level slots is solid at any even level but 12. Best at level 0 (hell you can take all 3 levels from 1, warlock early game is booty garbage)

After 12, 13, 15 hex you can gain greater than or even returns from the low level slots and short rest recharge metamagic by going to 3. After 17 it's open season. Warlock is capped here.

[Skylivedk]

In hindsight, I probably would have gone for the Sorcerer at level one... On the other hand it would mean no thirsting blade at the moment.

[Aaramis]

Regarding Hexblade / Shadow Sorc, you could always try the reverse of conventional wisdom and go Hexblade heavy.

3-5 Sorc levels for extra slots, metamagic, and either 2nd or 3rd level spells, then Hexblade all the way.

With Hexblade's level 10 ability, Shadow of Moil, and a cloak of displacement, you're pretty evasive even with a mere 16 or 17 AC.
And with a glaive you have reach too, so you can let the others take the hits while you float around the battlefield.

Oh and you can smite too.

[SleepIncarnate]

I'm gonna go on a limb here and suggest something a bit weird. The bardadin. Now hear me out, as this can be a viable alternative to the sorcadin. Specifically, we're talking college of whispers bard 15/oath of the crown paladin 5 if/when you hit level 20.

You still get level 8 spells from bard, but your total spellcaster level is 17, so you have a 9th level slot for upcasting/smiting. You lose a single 7th level spell slot (which you automatically lose no matter what you go with unless it's something like sorcerer/swords bard) and a single 6th level spell slot. You could also go 14/6 and lose nothing spell slot wise.

Unless your DM rules otherwise, there's nothing stopping you from combining psychic blades with divine smite. That means you can take your smite damage based on your spell slot and add another 8d6 psychic damage on top of it (or 5d6 if you go the 14/6 route to pick up aura of protection). If you start as a paladin, you can get the heavy armor, and the ability to have the basics of your combination smiting as early as level 5 (paladin 2, bard 3).

Thematically, this also seems to fit your shadows/crown potential concept. You're a courtesan of your lord, who seems to be a herald and diplomat, but is actually just as equally likely to be an assassin and spy when needed. This makes you potentially the most powerful single target damager possible in the game, potentially only beaten by going paladin 2/bard 15/rogue 3 and getting assassin for the guaranteed critical on surprised enemies. I don't recommend that though. That's sacrificing your second attack for a very limited chance at a guaranteed critical. Over the course of any fight, you'll do more damage being able to smite twice per round, applying psychic blades to one of the attacks each round.

[Sception]

An alternative to oathbreaker for any paladin-based dark knight build might be oath of conquest. The heavy emphasis on fear effects can also fit well with a spooky, shadow-magicky theme, and it's the one paladin subclass that actually prefers to cast spells most of the time rather than channeling those slots into smites, so you wouldn't be stepping on a fellow paladin's toes as much.

The downside is that it's a much worse fit for the feel of your character as described. The narrative identity of the oath of conquest subclass, as a bully who dominates their enemies through fear, is much more tangibly realized in their mechanics and play style than most other subclasses in the game, and certainly more so than any other paladin subclass. As such, where even the anti-paladin oathbreaker can be pretty easily be re-skinned, the same doesn't really work for a conqueror. You can rewrite the renets all you want, in combat they're still going to be a cruel bully preying on the fears of those weaker than them. It doesn't necessarily make them a bad guy, one could make a case for batman's ethos being a pretty good fit for a conquest paladin's mechanics (even if batman's actual fighting style is a better fit for a shadow or long death monk), but while they might not be evil they're never going to come off as nice.


Otherwise any mix of hexblade and either sorcerer or bard is solid. You can go just a few levels of hexblade, 3 to 5 maybe, and sink the rest into a full daily caster class, but the opposite works just as well, going nearly full hexblade and just dipping about 3 levels into sorcerer or bard to pick up some low level slots for Shield and Endure elements along with a bit of either inspiration or metamagic. If you go sorcerer then draconic's probably the best mechanical fit, but shadow is still good and fits the overall aesthetic better. Celestial is another solid alternative that gets some of that divine, paladin-y feel back in. On the bard end, sword's probably the best mechanical fit, and iirc treantmonk will be putting up a youtube video covering a hexblade/sword bard multiclass build in a couple weeks. Alternatively, whisper is still good and fits the overall shadow-magic aesthetic better. Lore is also great, particularly if you plan on putting more levels into bard than warlock, for the expanded spellcasting options, plus the offensive inspiration fits really well with the curse/misfortune thematic angle of the hexblade.

You can't really go wrong with these regardless of how you carve them up, and if you're invested in the heavily armored aesthetic, a first level fighter dip wouldn't hurt either. Neither would a two level paladin dip, but you're trying to avoid stepping on your fellow paladin's smiting toes, so maybe not that.

[SleepIncarnate]

Hmm, when I suggested the bardadin, I was under the impression that your party paladin was more a caster and less a smiter. If you don't want to step on her toes with smiting, might I suggest another route for gishing? Single class eldritch knight.

Your spell selection, by design, is going to be more heavy on evocation magic, and thus more offensive and less support focused. As a fighter, you get heavy armor at level 1. Starting at level 6, you'll be able to have two ASIs, helping counter any stat issues you may have. You're a little MAD, but not massively so. Get a decent intelligence for your casting. Your spell casting progresses a bit slower than a paladin, but it sounds like you care more about the combat side and less about the magic side, so that's fine too.

Additionally, you can up your defensiveness even more with your off-school spell selections, picking up things like Blur.

Another point that I haven't seen anyone bring up. What is the rest/combat cycle of your campaign like? If you're only getting the one long rest and no short rests, hexblade becomes a lot weaker as you cap out at level 20 with only 4 spell slots if you went pure hexblade (plus your single daily use of each mystic arcanum spell). Even as a tertiary caster, EK ends up with more spells.

It's not the absolute most overpowered gish in the game, but unless you specifically want something from paladin or warlock, the EK may be the best fit for what you want to do.

Some of the benfits of going EK are that as a fighter, you can take GWF as your fighting style, letting you reroll a 1 or 2 for any two handed weapon you use. You can never be disarmed, as your weapon is bound to you and can be summoned into your hands as long as you're on the same plane as it. Once you hit level 7, you can cast a cantrip (GFB, BB, etc.) and still get to make an attack. Eventually, if not casting a cantrip on your turn, you get 3 or 4 attacks per round. At level 10, you pick up a powerful ability which lets you cause your enemies to have disadvantage on saves against your spells. If one of your damage cantrips is a save or suck for damage (like toll the dead), you can cantrip/attack every turn, and almost always hit with the cantrip.

At level 13+, you can start combat with a fireball before charging in and swinging your heavy weapon.

War or tempest domain cleric is another option, though you do sacrifice having extra attack.

EDIT: Since you're doing a standard array for stats (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), and your party has a paladin and a warlock, going EK lets you use charisma as your dump stat. So you could put the 15 in strength, the 12 in dexterity, the 14 in constitution, the 13 in intelligence, the 10 in wisdom, and the 8 in charisma. Pick high elf as your race, and you then end up with 15/14/14/14/10/8. The 14 dex is for if you can't get that full plate right away and settle for medium armor, you still get that high AC. Also, it helps for ranged attacks that aren't magic and for dodging fireballs. The idea behind high elf is that you get an extra cantrip from your spell list (bringing you eventually up to 4 total) and more importantly, resistance to the most common forms of being shut down (sleep and charm). Take war caster and GWM as feats. Or war caster and heavy armor master to get your strength up to 16. Most of your damage comes from your spells and the sheer number of attacks per round you make, so you don't NEED that 20 in strength a pure melee character would.

[Grimmonsoon]

Aha, my GM has now disallowed any paladin builds. I should have updated the original thread with this to save some people the time - I have now.

EK is cool, but not for this character. If I'm trying to play someone who gained magic via a pact or exposure rather than someone who studied it all their life it seems better to focus on sorc/warlock than any wizard class. Similarly, I'd rather he had high CHA than high INT to reflect the courteous knight personality.

At this point I'm mostly torn between fighter/sorc and hexblade/sorc - which boils down to a tossup between heavy armour and medium armour really. It seems like medium armour would only be 1 less AC, but since he is a knightly type I guess I don't want him to feel squishy? That said, I can offset that with magical effects like Mirror Image and Blur. I'm also debating taking either heavily armoured or medium armour mastery as my free VHuman feat should I start with hexblade - but this seems to be ill-advised by most build guides.

[Nhorianscum]

Aha, my GM has now disallowed any paladin builds. I should have updated the original thread with this to save some people the time - I have now.

EK is cool, but not for this character. If I'm trying to play someone who gained magic via a pact or exposure rather than someone who studied it all their life it seems better to focus on sorc/warlock than any wizard class. Similarly, I'd rather he had high CHA than high INT to reflect the courteous knight personality.

At this point I'm mostly torn between fighter/sorc and hexblade/sorc - which boils down to a tossup between heavy armour and medium armour really. It seems like medium armour would only be 1 less AC, but since he is a knightly type I guess I don't want him to feel squishy? That said, I can offset that with magical effects like Mirror Image and Blur. I'm also debating taking either heavily armoured or medium armour mastery as my free VHuman feat should I start with hexblade - but this seems to be ill-advised by most build guides.

Sorc1(Start with res wis)/Hexblade12/Sorc3/whatever(Sorc for more slots, hex for your 9th level MI). Divine soul for saves or storm for mobility. Quicken + 1 metamagic.

ASI/Feats: Res (Wis), GWM, PAM, Cha+2, Cha+2.

Shield + Shadows nets us 23 AC at disadvantage to hit (effective 28 AC) before armor pluses.

EK7/FullcasterX is a thing you do for notCha gishes. Fighter11 fullcaster 9 is a thing on notEK but EK would rather just go to 20 at that point. (EK 1-20 is just that good).

On that note I'll also recommend just going full EK.

[SleepIncarnate]

If you're dead set on a charisma caster, but not a bard and paladin is not allowed, then yeah, your choice is either fighter/sorcerer, or hexblade/sorcerer, or pure hexblade. Again, the question comes up about short rests. You said your group is very RP heavy, so am I right in assuming you don't tend to have the several smaller combats and 2-3 major combats per day, with a couple short rests in between? If that assumption is right, I would highly suggest taking anything hexblade off the table. You'd only have 2 spell slots per day without the short rests, and wouldn't gain a 3rd until level 11. Yes, you have access to the SCAG cantrips, and 3 invocations starting at level 5/6 (if you go pure hexblade, only 2 if you mix in some kind of sorcerer and have only 3-4 levels in lock), and you're going to be wanting thirsting blade to get your second attack and improved pact weapon to make your weapon into your focus. You may be wanting eldritch smite as well, but that again comes close to the paladin's smiting, leading to potential toe stepping.

Your best bets seem to fall on either a pure EK fighter (keeping in mind that with EK, it's less about deep study like it is with the wizard, and more a focused one - the ones purely related to combat), or a fighter/sorcerer cross. The downside here is, you're going to come online a lot later. Either you lose out on extra attack in favor of picking up spells, or you lose out on spells in favor of extra attack. Keep in mind that without EK, you will be forced to choose between casting a spell or attacking, rather than being able to do both, as an EK or Valor Bard can do.

So let me ask a few questions here, in addition to repeating the one above.
How many rests are you getting per day? - If you're only getting the one short rest, warlock will actually weaken your casting potential as a gish.
What do you picture the magical role of your gish being? - This is a huge question with a lot of impact.
Do you just want to swing a big sword with GFB around to get those big hits, with the occasional extra spell like blur tossed in for extra tankiness? - This screams EK. Or even just a pure fighter with the Magic Initiate feat.
Do you want to give yourself and your allies advantage while disabling your enemies as you swing your big sword? - Valor bard may be better. You can still pick up GFB, BB, LL, or whatever via Magic Initiate and have lots of spells that don't have to be support/utility.
How much of a balance do you see your melee vs magical sides being? - Right now, my basic impression is that you're leaning more heavily to the melee side of things, maybe 70/30.
How much of your character concept is something that has to come about via the mechanics? - For example, you want your character's magic to come about because of their tragedy rather than study. While an EK uses intelligence as their stat for casting, most of their mechanics are closer to those of a sorcerer or bard: spells known, swap one spell for another at level up, etc. rather than preparation. Can you get the concept across through roleplay aspects (and thus still pick an EK), or does it have to be something reflected in the mechanics (thus leaning toward bard, sorcerer/fighter, or hexblade)?
What do you view your role in combat? - Are you just the guy swinging a big sword and doing damage? Are you the more tactical combatant, trying to keep foes close to you and away from your squishier party members? How do you accomplish these goals (e.g. are you using something like lightning lure to pull foes off of your goolock, or sentinel to keep them from leaving your space)?


We've heard a lot about the melee side of your build (armor, great weapons, etc.) but not a lot about the magic, or even the tactics. Some answers to these questions would help narrow it down. But if you're not getting those two short rests per day, I would definitely suggest against hexblade if you don't want to be a cantrip spammer. It's just a different flavor of the EB spammer.

[Grimmonsoon]

To be honest at this point, I have so many suggestions for anything except the builds I asked for advice on, that I'm not really sure what I want to play anymore. EK still doesn't really appeal though, sorry. They read as pretty lacklustre to me.

I could maybe be a bard? I guess I struggle to marry the whole musical magic thing with a character that has absolutely nothing to do with music. Yes, I know they can be oraters or whatever instead. I don't know, it just wasn't what I pictured in my head.

In terms of short rests, we get anywhere between 1-3 per session. We very rarely long rest between any fights. It's hard to judge because it depends entirely on how much health everyone has after a fight; our slightly overprotective paladin will insist on a short rest unless everyone is at basically full health.

Group role? I have no idea. We have a paladin and moon druid as tanks and healers, a warlock more interested in crowd control than damage and a DEX-y fighter who excels in taking out addons in fights while the rest of us focus on whatever the boss monster is. The only thing I can see that we're really lacking for is big damage and I would like to deliver that, but not from flinging spells from the back lines because I always play that and I'm trying to do something different. While also acknowledging that I tend to find 'hit thing' melee classes dull, and need something that has more than one trick on its turn. Still no closer to knowing what I want to play.

[SleepIncarnate]

If you're getting a lot of short rests, then going hexblade is a good option. Rather than the pew pew from range, you can get the melee cantrips, plus get a few decent spells. Blur isn't on your spell list, but mirror image is. You don't have quite as many direct damage spells as a sorcerer or wizard (warlocks really do depend on EB for most of their blasting), but you do have some alright ones. You might want to take just 3 or 5 levels in hexblade, depending on if you want extra attack or not, and then the rest in sorcerer for more pure casting options. It will let you pick up blur, more offensive magics, and so on. Maybe start at 3 hexblade warlock/3 shadow sorcerer, and then as you level, decide if you want to get another two levels of hexblade for the second attack or if you want to continue with sorcerer's spell progression. Or fighter/sorcerer, similar build, but a bit more MAD.

One of the advantages of the hexblade/sorcerer build is you get access to a total of 6 cantrips. You could pick up EB or Fire Bolt as your one ranged one for when you can't close in on a foe on your round, and then pick up all four of the SCAG cantrips, and still have one more to pick from either class's list. As soon as you get to level 4 in either class, you'll pick up another cantrip.

Final character builds could end up being:
Hexblade 3/Sorcerer 17 - This gets you to where you can use charisma for your stat for your heavy weapon. Only one attack per round, making the choice of spell vs. attack easier to make based on your needs. Get 9th level spells, plus a free pair of 2nd level slots that reset after a short rest. Cap out at 8 total cantrips (2 warlock, 6 sorcerer), and a total of 19 spells known (4 warlock, 15 sorcerer).
Hexblade 5/Sorcerer 15 - Lose 9th level spells but still get 8th level spells, warlock slots upgrade to 3rd level. Get a second attack per round. Get a total of 9 cantrips (3 warlock, 6 sorcerer), and a total of 20 spells (6 warlock, 14 sorcerer).
Hexblade 6/Sorcerer 14 - Lose 8th level spells, but pick up Accursed Spectre from Hexblade, another spectral servant akin to Hound of Ill Omen. Same 9 cantrips as 5/15 build, and also 20 spells (exchanging one from sorcerer to warlock for 7/13).

I do suggest picking up war caster as your first feat though. Since this build will prevent you from being level 4 at character creation (unless you start at level 7 instead of the predicted 5-6), you could make due with medium armor. Your stats could be 12 strength, 13 dexterity, 14 constitution, 8 intelligence, 10 wisdom, and 15 charisma. Since you're a variant human, you can put your two +1's into dexterity and charisma to give you 12/14/14/8/10/16 for final stats. Pick up a half plate, get your AC at 17 for half the gold cost of full plate, and only 1 AC less. Since you're in melee, you really want war caster to help maintain your concentration on your hex or blur. Have sorcerer as your starter class for the constitution proficiency.

If you really feel you need that heavy armor feat for the aesthetic, you could do a 2/4 or 4/2 build to pick up a second feat. Keep in mind, you can still wear a half plate and cover your wounds/disease/whatever with cloaks, bandages, etc., as alternatives. Think of Joshua Graham/The Burned Man from Fallout New Vegas. Still imposing, still genteel, but still a real bad@$$ while wearing nothing more protective than a standard bullet proof vest.

[SleepIncarnate]

Just realized, I should cover the other way. Maybe just get a few levels in sorcerer for spells like blur and the extra cantrips, then the rest in hexblade. The options for those become:
3 Sorcerer/17 Warlock - 9th level mystic arcanum, 4 full warlock spell slots (so 12 slots per day) that are all level 5, plus level 3 pure caster from sorcerer. 8 total cantrips (4 from each class), access to level 2 sorcerer spells (which covers your need for Blur), with 4 1st level slots and 2 2nd level slots. This route gives you access to a total of 7 invocations, for all the heavy melee ones (thirsting blade, improved pact weapon, etc.) while also giving you extras for things like Maddening Hex or Relentless Hex which work off your hexblade curse ability.
6 Sorcerer/14 Warlock - Only have 7th level MA, 3 warlock spell slots, and 6 invocations. The trade off is 3rd level sorcerer spells and Hound of Ill Omen.

I'm sure you'll eventually find a fit that's best for your character, but these are 5 sample final game builds and what they give to give you some ideas.

[Grimmonsoon]

Very helpful things.

Ah thanks, that's just the sort of advice I was looking for - a breakdown of level splits and some good feats to take. Hexblade 3/sorc 17 appeals the most out of those options, but if I feel like I'm not good enough in melee I can always drop more levels into hexblade.

I do think I'll go for half plate (which would still convey a knightly image, and if I drop at least 1 level in hexblade I can keep my STR pretty low) instead of full plate. as someone very rightly pointed out that if we stumbled across a set of magical heavy armour it would go to our tanky paladin, not to me. Our paladin has 14 STR and can't actually wear anything more than chainmail right now, but I assume she'll fix that at level 8, so it's a good thing to consider.

[SleepIncarnate]

Ah thanks, that's just the sort of advice I was looking for - a breakdown of level splits and some good feats to take. Hexblade 3/sorc 17 appeals the most out of those options, but if I feel like I'm not good enough in melee I can always drop more levels into hexblade.

I do think I'll go for half plate (which would still convey a knightly image, and if I drop at least 1 level in hexblade I can keep my STR pretty low) instead of full plate.

Well, you'll want to have at least 3 levels in warlock to use those big, two handed weapons. Without Pact of the Blade, you can only use charisma on a.) one specific weapon per day (that you performed a ritual on) that b.) lacks the two handed property. With pact of the blade, any melee weapon you summon gains that advantage. With the improved pact weapon invocation, you can also make your weapon into a short/long bow or a light/heavy crossbow. Plus, with that invocation, you can use your pact weapon as a spell focus, and your weapon gains a +1 to attack and damage rolls (unless you've used your blade pact ritual to turn an existing magical weapon into your pact weapon). This will leave you with some other options on your other invocation. I'll list a few of the more pertinent ones.


Devil's Sight - Counteracts your lack of darkvision as a variant human. Also lets you see through magical Darkness, meaning you gain advantage whenever it occurs, either cast by you/GOOlock, or by foes or a trap.
Thief of Five Fates - Bane is a powerful spell to use, though it does use up one of your limited warlock spell slots, and can only be done once per day.
One of the Eldritch Blast invocations - Most of the really good invocations for a hexblade require level 5, so this is another option. I'd suggest Grasp of Hadar, to let you pull enemies closer to you, either because you can't reach them yet in this round of combat and you want to reduce that distance, or to pull them off your squishy GOOlock.

I'd probably go with Devil's Sight, even if you don't plan on dropping Darkness on the battlefield, to counter one of the weaknesses of your race. Grasp of Hadar would be my second choice. The problem with Grasp of Hadar is that it makes your EB superior to Lightning Lure in every way. More damage (D10 vs D8), can hit multiple targets, does damage even if they don't end up within 5 feet of you, pulls them 10 feet closer to you per beam that hits. This means that at start (level 6), you can hit a single target for 2D10 and pull them 20 feet or two targets for 1D10 each and pull each of them 10 feet. On the plus side, that lets you get another cantrip to replace LL, maybe a save or suck damage one for foes with a high AC that your EB is struggling with. Toll the Dead is a good option, and it's on the warlock spell list, so that's your two warlock cantrips.