Becoming a "god" for wizards

[petermcleod117]

I have finished creating a setting which I plan to play with some history buffs, heavily based on the medieval world. In terms of what I actually need in order to play, I have long since collected the necessary rules. Now I'm down to minor nitpicks.

Wizards in my setting are split between three classes: the Theurge from the Medieval Player's Manual, the Astrologer from Occult Lore, and the Alchemist from AEG's Mercenaries. This is done because the three types of magic that practiced during the middle ages and renaissance fell into those three categories. The primary practitioners of all three kinds of magic were members of the hermetic faith (who were also often christian).

Here in lies the nitpick. One of the major beliefs common to Hermetics is that everyone has the potential to become a "god" (though christian hermetics would argue about the meaning of that word). This would imply that there is some kind of arcane ritual which can, if successful, cause the magician to "ascend" to a higher state of being akin to godhood.

I would like to know if, somewhere out there in the vast array of D20 3.5 products, a specific ritual (perhaps involving spells cast in a specific order or something similar) which would grant both immortality and power enough to be considered god-like.
The resulting being would not need to be able to grant spells to fit the requirements, as when the hermetics referred to this sort of thing they usually didn't have worship in mind, just a state of immense power and understanding.

[Jay R]

If I did this at all, it would be at the end of the final adventure in that world.

Once they have ascended, they are no longer adventurers.

[petermcleod117]

If I did this at all, it would be at the end of the final adventure in that world.

Once they have ascended, they are no longer adventurers.

I mostly agree. At the very least, it is not something that shouldn't be attempted until a high level is achieved.

However, a high level campaign could be played using such ascended characters. In particular, a campaign taking place in Hell alongside saboath angels, sainted characters (Medieval Players Handbook), ghostly characters (from ghostwalk), and benandanti werewolves (from Goodman Games Werewolves). In order to survive Hell, a character would need to be pretty powerful anyways.

[flappeercraft]

Probably an Epic Spell would be the best for this.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Hmmm... there is at least one canonical way to ascend to godhood, but it's through a twelve-level epic PrC: the Dragon Ascendant prestige class awards divine rank 0 at level 12 (technically, it says you become a quasideity, which, according to Deities & Demigods, is a term for a rank 0 deity). Still, it's a reliable way to ascend if you're a true dragon with +30 base attack bonus :smalltongue:.

It's possible to become an outsider through various prestige classes (and even twenty levels in monk), and certain rituals can award an alignment subtype (as per Savage Species), so that would make you something close to an exemplar (generic term for demons, archons, guardinials, rilmani, slaadi, yugoloth, modrons, and eladrin), though not a true exemplar.

Technically Savage Species rituals also provide ways for characters to become deities, too. For example, a mid- to high-level character could become one of the divine rank 0 Asgardian pantheon creatures (valkyries, einherjar, giants) by spending a large amount of gp and trading in some levels. It's just that none of the creatures with divine ranks have official level adjustments, so you can't play them by default.


If you just want invulnerability, true mind switch with an ice assassin of an ice assassin of yourself is a decent way to do it. It's just really high-optimization/cheesy.

[flappeercraft]

If you just want invulnerability, true mind switch with an ice assassin of an ice assassin of yourself is a decent way to do it. It's just really high-optimization/cheesy.

I believe you mean an Ice Assassin of an Aleax of yourself :smalltongue:

[Jack_Simth]

If you just want invulnerability, true mind switch with an ice assassin of an ice assassin of yourself is a decent way to do it. It's just really high-optimization/cheesy.
Nah. You make an Ice Assassin (Frostburn) of an Aleax (Book of Exalted Deeds) of an Elan Psion(Telepath)(Expanded Psionics Handbook), and have it use True Mind Switch (possibly via power stone - Expanded Psionics Handbook again for both) on you. Then you end up with the construct type, no maximum age, and Singular Enemy(Ex), making you immune to all attacks* except for those originating from one specific creature (whom you should either avoid, or arrange to have killed).

* Note that being immune to all forms of attack is not the same thing as being invulnerable. Stay away from hazards, such as forest fires, lightning, lava, natural tornadoes, cave-ins, falls, et cetera, as you also no longer naturally heal.

[Thealtruistorc]

The easiest way to become a "god", from what I can think up, would be to acquire enough mythic ranks to start granting spells to others. That said, this approach relies upon both Pathfinder and Mythic content so I'm not sure how well those would fly.

[flappeercraft]

Nah. You make an Ice Assassin (Frostburn) of an Aleax (Book of Exalted Deeds) of an Elan Psion(Telepath)(Expanded Psionics Handbook), and have it use True Mind Switch (possibly via power stone - Expanded Psionics Handbook again for both) on you. Then you end up with the construct type, no maximum age, and Singular Enemy(Ex), making you immune to all attacks* except for those originating from one specific creature (whom you should either avoid, or arrange to have killed).

* Note that being immune to all forms of attack is not the same thing as being invulnerable. Stay away from hazards, such as forest fires, lightning, lava, natural tornadoes, cave-ins, falls, et cetera, as you also no longer naturally heal.

Solution, to the note is to not use True Mind Switch but have both cast some spell that changes your type (I don't remember the name but there is a spell that gives you the outsider type temporarily) and then use Fusion + Astral Seed.

[Sleven]

Solution, to the note is to not use True Mind Switch but have both cast some spell that changes your type (I don't remember the name but there is a spell that gives you the outsider type temporarily) and then use Fusion + Astral Seed.

Fusion + Astral Seed doesn't work by RAW, so this myth needs to stop being spread around. It doesn't mean I don't like the idea of it working.

That being said, if you really want to become a god just create an Ice Assassion or Simulacrum of one and have it give you a divine rank via the proxy rules. Tah-dah! Instant godhood. Fluff a ritual around the process and you have your answer.

Idk why more people don't bring this up. It's pretty common knowledge TO.

[Particle_Man]

Did any book ever detail how the lich Vecna achieved godhood in the Greyhawk setting?

[Helluin]

While I don’t know about any specific spells (barring you know, Karsus’s D*** Move from FR and the Epic spells suite used by the Dragon Kings of Athas to transform themselves into dragons), may I suggest making the paths of divinity varied, myriad and suitably obscure - make it so that the only thing clear about Apotheosis is that the fates of those who ascend are always unclear?

WotC published some web content a long time ago detailing the some Epic Destinies for 3.5 characters (as a teaser for 4E I believe), most of them can be seen as near-divinity as defined in your post (immense power, some form of immortality, etc.). An Epic Destiny can be traded with a series of Epic Feats, culminating in some sort of ascension at lvl 30.

You can also port in 4E Epic Destiny Archmage, a wizard who dedicated his/her entire existence to the study and perfection of a “Demispell”, and eventually becomes one with it. Suppose a mage merged with an aspect of the Demispell governing elemental forces, shifting the nature of certain evocation magic forever, his true name incorporated into the esoteric words that every mage for generations to come mage will chant to fuel their spells; or a witch who dedicated herself to the art of planar binding, every conjuror will invoke her protection as they cast a Calling spell by drawing her sigil in their binding diagram, etc.

There are also other Epic Destinies that, with the right interpretation, can be used to describe the Ascension of a Wizard. Archlich - a Wizard who transcended Life, Death, and even Undeath - one who is truly immortal and beyond the normal trappings of undeath. Mythic Shadow - a mage who has woven an illusion so elaborate that her own existence has been erased from history, yet lives within her shadowed demiplane from which she observes world-changing events, interfering as she deems fit.

As mentioned above, there are also PF mythic path, which allow you to grant spells, acquire domains, and achieve near-demigod status eventually; however, there are also other options. You can, for example, gain immortality, transcend alignments, become a traveller within the stars - people may think these wizards have departed from this world into the realm of the gods (which could very well be true).

Edit: I forgot about the Einherjar template from 3.5, they are 0 rank deities.

[Zanos]

Velsharoon became a god through a magical ritual, but he was also sponsored by an existing deity.

I believe theres an adventure where a powerful wizard is using hundreds of wish spells fueled by the souls of mortals to siphon the divine spark of a dead deity and become a god herself. Which is metal.

There arent any RAW ways to become a deity that I know of that you would want to build a setting around, I'd just think up something you like.

[Jack_Simth]

Solution, to the note is to not use True Mind Switch but have both cast some spell that changes your type (I don't remember the name but there is a spell that gives you the outsider type temporarily) and then use Fusion + Astral Seed.
Actually, that doesn't help, even in the interpretation where Fusion + Astral Seed gives you a permanently new body (which is chancy - in what sense is "remaining duration on effects with a duration" NOT part of "all the abilities you possessed when astral seed was manifested"?). The note about being immune to all attack not making you invulnerable? That's because there's non-attack methods of taking damage. An Aleax that blows a balance check on a tightrope still takes falling damage (the damage isn't an attack, so it still applies). An Aleax that walks into a burning building after its prey still takes fire damage (unless the building was deliberately set on fire for the purpose). An Aleax hit by a lightning bolt still takes electricity damage (if it's a normal lightning bolt, and not the result of someone's spell). And so on.

[liquidformat]

Wizards in my setting are split between three classes: the Theurge from the Medieval Player's Manual, the Astrologer from Occult Lore, and the Alchemist from AEG's Mercenaries.

Since you have three different classes I think it would make sense to have three different methods and to kind of homebrew it. For Alchemist, it seems pretty straightforward you are in search of how to make the elixir of life or philosopher's stone. Once you make and imbibe it you are a 'god'. For a Theurge I think savage species rituals is a great place to focus and start, the ultimate ritual to become a 'god' once it is performed. As for Astrologer, I am not as sure maybe some way to become a transcendent ghost?

It is also important to decide what you want becoming a 'god' to mean and what abilities it will grant. Is it simply divine level 0 or 1 or is it something else like getting an outsider template?... It could be something as simple as gaining immortality, which is often described as the baseline of being a 'god' in a lot of eastern mythology and could be a great place to start. In which case classes such as Cloud Anchorite provide once you hit level 10.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I believe you mean an Ice Assassin of an Aleax of yourself :smalltongue:
You're quite right, I was thinking ice assassin had the singular enemy thing as well. Guess I was up too late last night :smalltongue:.

Ice assassin does have that nice "can share spells with it" clause, which should let you affect an ice assassin of an aleax with the likes of greater humanoid essence (or equivalent) to be able to fusion with it.


Fusion + Astral Seed doesn't work by RAW [...]
Why do you think it doesn't work?


As for Astrologer, I am not as sure maybe some way to become a transcendent ghost?
Astrologers want Portfolio Sense, of course! That, or at-will metafaculty (with reduced casting time).

[Feantar]

Dragon 363 has an epic destinies article. A specific one is called Demigod, which gives some rather inconsequential bonuses for your level (one of which is inherent bonuses, which if you're 20 + you should already have). However, and I quote:


Divine Immortality: When you reach the end of your destiny quest, you become a true deity (if a minor one). Perhaps you create your own divine domain and portfolio, or perhaps a deity you had a close connection with gives you a piece of his power in respect for your incredible service. You might want to design a divine portfolio, holy symbol, and other trappings of your own faith before the campaign ends, and share those with the group when you finish your destiny quest. When you reach godhood, the adventuring life seems quaint compared to the power you wield. Your character's need to travel and battle mortal threats is finished, but her influence on other adventurers might not be. Perhaps the deity you've become will even be a major player in your next campaign.

So, there you go. You can even bestow spells in the end. Although dragon ascendant might be simpler. Or maybe going by the narrative of killing an abomination(rank 0 deity, unwanter children of gods) and taking it's power, but that's more DM Fiat territory.
Well, there aren't specific rituals besides what has been stated above (I think Karsus' Avatar was detailed in this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netheril:_Empire_of_Magic) book, but that's second edition), but there's various things you can do as a wizard (I don't have access to the classes you're using) to mimic the power of one.

Persistent Existence: The easiest (relatively) non undead approach, is combining Wedded to History(Feat - Dragon #354) for being immortal & unchanging, and Hide Life(Spell - Tome and Blood) to become immune to dying. Well, hide life sticks all your life force in a body part which you're supposed to hide, but while that survives, you survive. Then there's becoming an Archlich / Baelnorn (Good Lich), or just becoming a lich. A different approach is chaining reincarnate spells, which is interesting thematically, because you're forever changing but also persistently yourself (and alive).
Divine Presence: Well, the best single thematic feat I can think of (it sucks) is Presence of the Mage (Dragon #359) which makes your presence make your allies feel empowered and your enemies feel intimidated.
Omnipresence(Hearing Prayers and Co-location): This is actually easy. There's a the Ears of the Mage(Dragon #359 again) with which, anyone who speaks a name you choose(your own or some pseudonym maybe) within many miles of you, you immediately know where they are, which makes scrying them an easy task. Utilising simulacra of yourself you can effectively hear multiple prayers at once and be in many places at once(or at least, send an "avatar" of yourself).
Power & Resilience: That's already done if you're a high level spell caster, nothing to do here but optimise.
Divine Realm: Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm). If the DM allows, give it the Entrapping effect, like Elysium. Then make it paradise-like.
Divine Servants: Either your aforementioned simulacra, or planar binding would do here. The planar binding makes you more like Solomon than god but oh well. For more permanent followers see spells like Cry of Ysgard, Create Lantern Archon (To summon guardians) and similar, or if you're evil Animate Dread Warrior, Shapechange + Create Spawn. And finally, if you're neither, Minor Servitor and Mineralise Warrior(which fits with the alchemist a bit), and constructs in general.
Actual Religion: Leadership is a must.
Portfolio Sense: This is difficult. You'd need multiple individuals (simulacra again?) to be using divinations multiple times a day to be able to simulate portfolio sense in a small area. . That is, unless your portfolio is something very evident, for which people would pray a lot - in that case just use the people's prayers as information sources. Neither of these is unfitting of deities; think the fates reading their weaving, or Hermes seeing the future in the whispers of travellers. Finally, utilising leadership as a spy network would also be able to function like this - but this spoils the feeling of a deity and just makes you look like one.
Bestowing Power: ...this is really difficult. The only thing I can think of is magic items, or the extremely bad Spell-casting Contract (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/spellcasting-contract/) spells. If you're following the rules for higher level potions (some alchemist class can do that iff I recall correctly), the channel celestial line is kinda fitting to the theme (if good aligned). IF you're a knowledge deity, then giving your sincere followers power can be accomplished by researching Incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) and teaching them.
Note that many of my examples are borderline rules abuses, but since the point is to reach a divine-like state, then the rules should be abused to allow that to happen.

PS: If you want to make it a ritual, you can look at incantations mentioned above. You'll have to do a lot of house ruling, but it's the best ritual system in 3.5, and the most open-ended.

[noob]

Dragon 363 has an epic destinies article. A specific one is called Demigod, which gives some rather inconsequential bonuses for your level (one of which is inherent bonuses, which if you're 20 + you should already have). However, and I quote:


Divine Immortality: When you reach the end of your destiny quest, you become a true deity (if a minor one). Perhaps you create your own divine domain and portfolio, or perhaps a deity you had a close connection with gives you a piece of his power in respect for your incredible service. You might want to design a divine portfolio, holy symbol, and other trappings of your own faith before the campaign ends, and share those with the group when you finish your destiny quest. When you reach godhood, the adventuring life seems quaint compared to the power you wield. Your character's need to travel and battle mortal threats is finished, but her influence on other adventurers might not be. Perhaps the deity you've become will even be a major player in your next campaign.

So, there you go. You can even bestow spells in the end. Although dragon ascendant might be simpler. Or maybe going by the narrative of killing an abomination(rank 0 deity, unwanter children of gods) and taking it's power, but that's more DM Fiat territory.
Well, there aren't specific rituals besides what has been stated above (I think Karsus' Avatar was detailed in this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netheril:_Empire_of_Magic) book, but that's second edition), but there's various things you can do as a wizard (I don't have access to the classes you're using) to mimic the power of one.

Persistent Existence: The easiest (relatively) non undead approach, is combining Wedded to History(Feat - Dragon #354) for being immortal & unchanging, and Hide Life(Spell - Tome and Blood) to become immune to dying. Well, hide life sticks all your life force in a body part which you're supposed to hide, but while that survives, you survive. Then there's becoming an Archlich / Baelnorn (Good Lich), or just becoming a lich. A different approach is chaining reincarnate spells, which is interesting thematically, because you're forever changing but also persistently yourself (and alive).
Divine Presence: Well, the best single thematic feat I can think of (it sucks) is Presence of the Mage (Dragon #359) which makes your presence make your allies feel empowered and your enemies feel intimidated.
Omnipresence(Hearing Prayers and Co-location): This is actually easy. There's a the Ears of the Mage(Dragon #359 again) with which, anyone who speaks a name you choose(your own or some pseudonym maybe) within many miles of you, you immediately know where they are, which makes scrying them an easy task. Utilising simulacra of yourself you can effectively hear multiple prayers at once and be in many places at once(or at least, send an "avatar" of yourself).
Power & Resilience: That's already done if you're a high level spell caster, nothing to do here but optimise.
Divine Realm: Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm). If the DM allows, give it the Entrapping effect, like Elysium. Then make it paradise-like.
Divine Servants: Either your aforementioned simulacra, or planar binding would do here. The planar binding makes you more like Solomon than god but oh well. For more permanent followers see spells like Cry of Ysgard, Create Lantern Archon (To summon guardians) and similar, or if you're evil Animate Dread Warrior, Shapechange + Create Spawn. And finally, if you're neither, Minor Servitor and Mineralise Warrior(which fits with the alchemist a bit), and constructs in general.
Actual Religion: Leadership is a must.
Portfolio Sense: This is difficult. You'd need multiple individuals (simulacra again?) to be using divinations multiple times a day to be able to simulate portfolio sense in a small area. . That is, unless your portfolio is something very evident, for which people would pray a lot - in that case just use the people's prayers as information sources. Neither of these is unfitting of deities; think the fates reading their weaving, or Hermes seeing the future in the whispers of travellers. Finally, utilising leadership as a spy network would also be able to function like this - but this spoils the feeling of a deity and just makes you look like one.
Bestowing Power: ...this is really difficult. The only thing I can think of is magic items, or the extremely bad Spell-casting Contract (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/spellcasting-contract/) spells. If you're following the rules for higher level potions (some alchemist class can do that iff I recall correctly), the channel celestial line is kinda fitting to the theme (if good aligned). IF you're a knowledge deity, then giving your sincere followers power can be accomplished by researching Incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) and teaching them.
Note that many of my examples are borderline rules abuses, but since the point is to reach a divine-like state, then the rules should be abused to allow that to happen.

PS: If you want to make it a ritual, you can look at incantations mentioned above. You'll have to do a lot of house ruling, but it's the best ritual system in 3.5, and the most open-ended.

if you can get 3.5 content being a fiend allows to take a prc that makes you able to grant spells easier and do stuff like killing/punishing your followers at range

[AnimeTheCat]

have you looked at the 3.0 supplement Deities and Demigods? It has "Appendix 2: Divine Ascension" on page 218 that outlines a wide range of methods and ideas on ascension for players, as well as adventuring beyond ascension.

[Jack_Simth]

Why do you think it doesn't work?I don't know about Sleven, but tell me:

In what sense is "the remaining duration of effects" any less a part of "the abilities you possessed when astral seed was manifested" than the effects that have the duration when you manifest Astral Seed?

[ExLibrisMortis]

I don't know about Sleven, but tell me:

In what sense is "the remaining duration of effects" any less a part of "the abilities you possessed when astral seed was manifested" than the effects that have the duration when you manifest Astral Seed?
The ability "Pounce" does not have a duration. If I polymorph into (or fusion with) a bladerager troll, its Pounce ability does not inherit the duration of the spell.

[Jack_Simth]

The ability "Pounce" does not have a duration. If I polymorph into (or fusion with) a bladerager troll, its Pounce ability does not inherit the duration of the spell.
The Polymorph and/or Fusion spell that are granting you those abilities, however, do have a duration. When it expires, so do the abilities granted by them. At the time of the completion of your new body, you have those abilities (exactly as specified in Astral Seed). Including the remaining duration of the effect used to get them (based on the time you finished manifesting Astral Seed). Which then ticks down. After it expires, you no longer have those abilities.

[Sleven]

Why do you think it doesn't work?

Jack makes a valid RAW point, however my refutation is far more spell specific:

Fusion differentiates between you, the other creature, and the fused being you create. Therefore, you are still you, and though you have control over the fused being that results from the power, you are not the creature or fused being. Meanwhile, Astral Seed specifies you. Your mind, your body, etc. Quite simple, really. The designers weren't entirely incompetent.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Including the remaining duration of the effect used to get them
No, not including the duration. The duration is attached to the spell, not to the ability.


Jack makes a valid RAW point, however my refutation is far more spell specific:

Fusion differentiates between you, the other creature, and the fused being you create. Therefore, you are still you, and though you have control over the fused being that results from the power, you are not the creature or fused being. Meanwhile, Astral Seed specifies you. Your mind, your body, etc. Quite simple, really. The designers weren't entirely incompetent.
"You" in the astral seed description refers to the fused being, who is the individual manifesting the power. It does not refer to "you" the individual who (in the past) arranged the fusion and whose mind (altered by new ability scores, new abilities, etcetera) is in charge of the fused being. Fusion + astral seed changes who "you" are, absolutely. That's the point.

[Jack_Simth]

No, not including the duration. The duration is attached to the spell, not to the ability.
Ability isn't capitalized, and doesn't say "special" in front of it (nor Ex, Su, or Sp). It just says "abilities". That could equally just be "ability scores".

However: It also says "an exact duplicate of your body at the time you manifested astral seed" - which would include anything that affects your body, at a minimum. Which would include the Polymorph spell or Fusion power referenced. And thus, durations tick down, and abilities go away.

"You" in the astral seed description refers to the fused being, who is the individual manifesting the power. It does not refer to "you" the individual who (in the past) arranged the fusion and whose mind (altered by new ability scores, new abilities, etcetera) is in charge of the fused being. Fusion + astral seed changes who "you" are, absolutely. That's the point.I think the point is that the fused being who manifested Astral Seed is the one that gets raised. But the ability that put you in charge of it expired long ago. Which means you stay dead, and there's a new, powerful NPC running around the campaign world.

[Sleven]

No, not including the duration. The duration is attached to the spell, not to the ability.

I don't understand this argument at all. The spell gives you the abilities. They are tied to the spell. Once the spell ends, they end. What you're suggesting is tantamount to saying that shapechange gives you monster abilities forever just because you changed into said monster.


"You" in the astral seed description refers to the fused being, who is the individual manifesting the power. It does not refer to "you" the individual who (in the past) arranged the fusion and whose mind (altered by new ability scores, new abilities, etcetera) is in charge of the fused being. Fusion + astral seed changes who "you" are, absolutely. That's the point.

I'm flabbergasted, to be frank. How could "you" possibly be referring to something that is explicitly not you? You are still yourself in the resulting Fusion, you merely have control over the fused being. The spell description makes this abundantly clear:


You and another willing, corporeal, living creature of the same or smaller size fuse into one being. As the manifester, you control the actions of the fused being. However, you can give up this control to the other creature. Once you give up control, you cannot regain it unless the other creature relinquishes it.

The fused being has your current hit points plus the other creature’s current hit points. The fused being knows all the powers you and the other creature know, has the sum of your and the other creature’s power points, and knows or has prepared any spells you or the other creature possesses (if any). Likewise, all feats, racial abilities, and class features are pooled (if both creatures have the same ability, the fused being gains it only once). For each of the six ability scores, the fused being’s score is the higher of yours and the other creature’s, and the fused being also has the higher Hit Dice or manifester level—this effectively means the fused being uses the better saving throws, attack bonus, and skill modifiers of either member, and it manifests powers at the higher of the manifester levels that you or the other creature possessed before becoming fused.

You decide what equipment is absorbed into the fused being and what equipment remains available for use. These fused items are restored once the power ends.

When the power ends, the fused being separates. The other creature appears in an area adjacent to you that you determine. If separation occurs in a cramped space, the other creature is expelled through the Astral Plane, finally coming to rest materially in the nearest empty space and taking 1d6 points of damage for each 10 feet of solid material passed through.

Damage taken by the fused being is split evenly between you and the other creature when the power ends. You do not leave the fusion with more hit points than you entered it with, unless you were damaged prior to the fusion and the fused being was subsequently healed. In a like manner, the fused being’s remaining power points are split between you and the other creature (you can leave with more points than you entered with, as long as you don’t exceed the maximum power points for your level and ability score). Ability damage and negative levels are also split between you and the other creature. (If an odd number of negative levels or ability score reductions must be split, you decide whether you or the other creature receives the additional loss.)

If a fused being is killed, it separates into its constituent creatures, both of which are also dead.

I don't think I've ever seen a spell or power be that meticulous about making a distinction between where everyone involved in the spell/power stands.

[BWR]

Sounds like you are reinventing the wheel that is Ars Magica, Pete. If you are not familiar with that, drop everything and look it up. You will be saving yourself a TON of work and effort.

[Cosi]

I would endorse the Savage Species rituals as being pretty good for this, at least as a starting point. Maybe a ritual that gives you the Paragon Creature template from the Epic Level Handbook?


The Polymorph and/or Fusion spell that are granting you those abilities, however, do have a duration. When it expires, so do the abilities granted by them. At the time of the completion of your new body, you have those abilities (exactly as specified in Astral Seed). Including the remaining duration of the effect used to get them (based on the time you finished manifesting Astral Seed). Which then ticks down. After it expires, you no longer have those abilities.

That's not quite right. The abilities don't expire, you stop being granted them. The abilities themselves have no duration. If something copies your abilities, it gets them permanently (or not, if the effect copying specifies a duration). It's like saying that if you do damage equal to your STR score under the effect of bull's strength, 4 points of that damage heals when the spell expires.


Sounds like you are reinventing the wheel that is Ars Magica, Pete. If you are not familiar with that, drop everything and look it up. You will be saving yourself a TON of work and effort.

I mean, Ars Magica is not a system I would consider so great as to brook no improvement, and it also has a play paradigm that is pretty fundamentally different from D&D's. Troupe Play is unique, and it solves some problems, but it's not at all unreasonable to want to not do it.

[BWR]

I mean, Ars Magica is not a system I would consider so great as to brook no improvement, and it also has a play paradigm that is pretty fundamentally different from D&D's. Troupe Play is unique, and it solves some problems, but it's not at all unreasonable to want to not do it.

I was thinking more along the lines of world building than actual mechanics.

[Faily]

Depends on what exactly you mean by "godhood" in a medieval/renaissance-setting.

Though I will second BWR in looking up Ars Magica. The most particular subject being House Criamon as detailed in Houses of Hermes: Mystery Cults. The Mystery Houses tend to lean much more away from the common religion of mythic Europe, which does put them at odds with the church, particularly House Criamon who believe that godhood is simply the highest form of understanding the universe and could probably be considered their setting's agnostics or closest-thing-to atheists (I could get much more into detail, but that would probably trigger the silly forum-rules on speaking of real religion).

The other three Mystery houses have some interesting thoughts too, but I think House Criamon is what you're looking for.

Now, as to D&D...

If we're just talking immortality (don't age and stuff), there's Pathfinder's Wizard Discovery of Immortality (Ultimate Magic).
Older stuff (BECMI) actually have rules for achieving Immortality (basically achieving a form of godhood), with different paths tied to each Sphere of influence: Energy, Matter, Thought, Time, and Entropy. Not only do you have to pass a Divine Job Interview to even be considered in the running (you need to quest to find a place to speak with the divine being you wish to sponsor your bid for godhood, and must pass several trials on your way), but you have to complete several trials and quests related to your Sphere of choice.

The Sphere of Matter used the Path of Polymath. The Quest and Task were combine into living multiple lives, once for each Fighter, Magic-user, Cleric, and Thief. At the beginning of each life after the first the sponsor erases the candidate's memories and he starts anew at level 1. For the Testimonial the Polymath must erect a monument of at least 100 feet in height that must stand for 10 years showing the glory of his experience. For the Trial the Polymath is once again reduced reduced to level 1, but retains all the classes he previously experienced and must advance to 12th level (out of 36) entirely on his own.

The Sphere of Energy used the Path of the Paragon. The Quest is simply retrieving a powerful artifact belonging to the sphere. The Trial is the construction of an entirely new magic item, this item must be an item of great power, mere trinkets will not suffice. The Testimonial of the Paragon is he must train six apprentices to 12th level and must transform the land within 100 miles of his home in a distinct way. The Task of a Paragon is he must be acknowledged as the most powerful member his class within a 1000 mile radius of his home.

The Sphere of Time used the Path of the Dynast. The Quest Dynasts must complete is finding an artifact that allows him to travel time. The Testimonial of the Dynast is founding a dominion of at least 50,000 people and designing and building a capital for that kingdom. The Task of the Dynast is found his dynasty, he or his heirs must rule for at least 20 years of the character's life, at the end of the 20 year period he must have a grandchild in place to be his heir. The Dynast's Trial is using the artifact he quested for to travel to the future and help three of his descendant's retain their kingdom and protect the dynast.

The Sphere of Thought used the Path of the Epic Hero. An Epic Hero must quest for a major artifact belonging to the Sphere of Thought. His Trial is to bring about the permanent destruction of an Artifact belonging to the Sphere of Entropy. His Testimony is to find and train a worthy successor, who must continue the Hero's legacy, the Epic Hero must also forge a legendary weapon. The Task of an Epic Hero is must live up to the ideals of heroic courage, steadfastness, and dedication. He must also complete an epic quest to complete an "impossible" task.

The Sphere of Entropy doesn't have an official write-up on how to achieve Immortality, because it's usually the "antagonist"-realm and not something most PCs would pursue (at least when it was written).

[petermcleod117]

I was thinking more along the lines of world building than actual mechanics.

as it happens, i am actually using some Ars Magica products for fluff, such as the Stonehenge Tribunal and the Black Monks of Glastonbury. Additionally, the Medieval Player's Handbook which I am basing the setting around was written by David Chart, one of the main history buffs on the Ars Magica team, and Occult Lore (my source for the Astrologer class) was published by Atlas Press, the guys who made Ars Magica.

The reason why i'm not just using the Ars Magica rules is twofold: I understand the rules of D&D better and don't really want to learn a new system, and David Chart himself said that the magic system in Ars Magica is not very medieval, prompting him to create the Theurge and Natural Magician classes (the second of which combines the alchemist and astrologer into the same class, but is unfortunately broken on a similar level to the truenamer).

[petermcleod117]

Since you have three different classes I think it would make sense to have three different methods and to kind of homebrew it. For Alchemist, it seems pretty straightforward you are in search of how to make the elixir of life or philosopher's stone. Once you make and imbibe it you are a 'god'. For a Theurge I think savage species rituals is a great place to focus and start, the ultimate ritual to become a 'god' once it is performed. As for Astrologer, I am not as sure maybe some way to become a transcendent ghost?

It is also important to decide what you want becoming a 'god' to mean and what abilities it will grant. Is it simply divine level 0 or 1 or is it something else like getting an outsider template?... It could be something as simple as gaining immortality, which is often described as the baseline of being a 'god' in a lot of eastern mythology and could be a great place to start. In which case classes such as Cloud Anchorite provide once you hit level 10.

i like this idea. I just need to find a version of the philosopher's stone that doesn't suck.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Cosi covered the duration argument exactly as I would, so I just have to reply to this:

How could "you" possibly be referring to something that is explicitly not you? You are still yourself in the resulting Fusion, you merely have control over the fused being.
"You" is what is known as a deictic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deixis) element, having a different reference depending on context. So when fusion and astral seed use the same word spelled y-o-u, they do not refer to the same thing. The fusion power uses "you" in a specific way in the context of fusion, and the distinction it makes between "you" and "the other creature" is specific to fusion only. Astral seed, on the other hand, just uses "you" to refer to the manifester, as per the default use.

[Sleven]

Cosi covered the duration argument exactly as I would

Yea. That's one way to twist the meaning of "exact duplicate" to get the result you want. I tend to look at it more simply, and spells with durations have just that [durations] when exactly duplicated.


"You" is what is known as a deictic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deixis) element, having a different reference depending on context. So when fusion and astral seed use the same word spelled y-o-u, they do not refer to the same thing. The fusion power uses "you" in a specific way in the context of fusion, and the distinction it makes between "you" and "the other creature" is specific to fusion only. Astral seed, on the other hand, just uses "you" to refer to the manifester, as per the default use.

Yawn.

Everyone is familiar with the deictic nature of pronouns whether they're familiar with the linguistic term or not. So if you want to talk about how to interpret the use of "you" for this particular power interaction, simply do so.

As far as your actual rebuttal goes... Fusion is all we have to be concerned about because it does distinguish you from the fused being the power creates. The fused being can never make actions on behalf of itself per the spell description, and while you can act on behalf of the fused being you can never cause an effect created while controlling the fused being to affect yourself in any way not specifically called out by the power. What are those things? Damage, power points, negative levels, and drain. Hell, when the fused being is killed, you separate from the fused being first. Once that has happened both creatures are finally considered dead. Even the act of death makes a distinction between the three parties involved. Idk how the power could be more explicit.

[Jack_Simth]

Cosi covered the duration argument exactly as I would, so I just have to reply to this:

"You" is what is known as a deictic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deixis) element, having a different reference depending on context. So when fusion and astral seed use the same word spelled y-o-u, they do not refer to the same thing. The fusion power uses "you" in a specific way in the context of fusion, and the distinction it makes between "you" and "the other creature" is specific to fusion only. Astral seed, on the other hand, just uses "you" to refer to the manifester, as per the default use.

And that is the problem Sleven seems to be trying to point out:
Astral Seed was manifested by the fused being, so it's the fused being that comes back (assuming it's soul is available, because it doesn't exactly die when the power ends...). But in Fusion, it never actually says you are the fused being. In fact, it goes out of it's way to make a distinction between you, the other person, and the fused being. So you Fuse with some other creature, manifest Astral Seed, and kill yourself... oops. The fused being is the one that manifested Astral Seed, not you. So you stay dead. Arguably, the fused being may come back... but it's not you. It's also no longer under your control. At best, you killed yourself to make an NPC one level lower.

That's not quite right. The abilities don't expire, you stop being granted them. The abilities themselves have no duration. If something copies your abilities, it gets them permanently (or not, if the effect copying specifies a duration). It's like saying that if you do damage equal to your STR score under the effect of bull's strength, 4 points of that damage heals when the spell expires.
And the spells are copied too (from the bit about an exact duplicate of your body, if nowhere else), so when they stop, so do the abilities. Easy. Additionally, damage is explicitly always instant.

Further: How are you defining abilities? If you're trying to use a game-mechanics definition, you've got a problem: They're divied up into several discreet sections, and the power doesn't specify. If you're trying to use a more English-based definition, you've got a different problem: You're trying to cut it exactly where you want so that a spell/power affecting you doesn't qualify as an ability, but whatever the spell/power provides does. It all falls apart if the DM in question doesn't see it exactly like you do.

Then, of course, there's the "It's a simple matter to read the power in this non-broken way. When there's an alternate reading that can easily be (ab)used to break the game ... why read it that way for a real game?"

[Cosi]

Yea. That's one way to twist the meaning of "exact duplicate" to get the result you want. I tend to look at it more simply, and spells with durations have just that [durations] when exactly duplicated.

Spells aren't part of a character, and they aren't copied at all. They make changes, and when they expire they revert those changes. While active, whatever changes they make are no different from abilities you got from some other source. Pounce is Pounce. It's not a different thing if you get it from a spell than if you get it from being a Lion Totem Barbarian.


Further: How are you defining abilities? If you're trying to use a game-mechanics definition, you've got a problem: They're divied up into several discreet sections, and the power doesn't specify.

It seems to me that if something says "you get X", arguing that X has subcategories is rather completely irrelevant. Absent specification, you would get all the subcategories.


You're trying to cut it exactly where you want so that a spell/power affecting you doesn't qualify as an ability, but whatever the spell/power provides does.

Again, it seems very obvious to me that "something that grants you X" and "X" are different categories of things. I see no difficulty in a definition that divides, for example, "things that provide you with money" and "money".


Then, of course, there's the "It's a simple matter to read the power in this non-broken way. When there's an alternate reading that can easily be (ab)used to break the game ... why read it that way for a real game?"

That's backwards. There are already unambiguous RAW things that are unambiguously broken. Why tie yourself in knots arguing for a non-broken reading -- which is almost always not the reading that is best for the game -- when you're going to be houseruling anyway, and could put in a ruling that is actually good for the game, instead of merely plausible and non-broken?

[Sleven]

Spells aren't part of a character, and they aren't copied at all. They make changes, and when they expire they revert those changes. While active, whatever changes they make are no different from abilities you got from some other source. Pounce is Pounce. It's not a different thing if you get it from a spell than if you get it from being a Lion Totem Barbarian.

Pounce is Pounce, but when you get it from a spell you inherent everything that comes with the fact that it's tied to a spell: duration, dispel-ability, etc. The spells are a part of your character while they're in effect, absolutely.


It seems to me that if something says "you get X", arguing that X has subcategories is rather completely irrelevant. Absent specification, you would get all the subcategories.

This statement agrees far more with Jack's interpretation than your own. Absent specification, spells work the same as they always do.


Why tie yourself in knots arguing for

The knot tying here appears to be being done by you and Mortis. You're the ones claiming that spells ignore all their established rules in this specific instance to fit the interpretation you want.

[Cosi]

Pounce is Pounce, but when you get it from a spell you inherent everything that comes with the fact that it's tied to a spell: duration, dispel-ability, etc. The spells are a part of your character while they're in effect, absolutely.

No, the ability doesn't have those things. The spell granting the ability has those things. bear's endurance doesn't give you a +4 CON bonus with a duration of 1 minute per caster level, it gives you a +4 CON bonus, and that bonus disappears after 1 minute per caster level.

Unless there's some additional text in the spell I've missed?


Absent specification, spells work the same as they always do.

That is absolutely correct. Spells grant you an ability for a duration. They do not grant you an ability with a duration. I'm glad we agree.


The knot tying here appears to be being done by you and Mortis. You're the ones claiming that spells ignore all their established rules in this specific instance to fit the interpretation you want.

Again, I invite you to show me that part of bear's endurance where the CON bonus is described as having a duration. The spell has a duration, but the bonus itself does not. If something copies your CON, or sets a value based of your CON, or does anything else that references your CON to set a value, that value does not change when the spell expires. Ditto for other abilities.

[Jack_Simth]

Spells aren't part of a character, and they aren't copied at all.
Irrelevant that they're not part of your character. They're on your body. If nowhere else, the new body is "an exact duplicate of your body at the time you manifested astral seed" - which would include anything affecting your body (such as, say, Bestow Curse, or any other spell or effect).

They make changes, and when they expire they revert those changes. While active, whatever changes they make are no different from abilities you got from some other source. Pounce is Pounce. It's not a different thing if you get it from a spell than if you get it from being a Lion Totem Barbarian.
I don't see it that way. You've got the ability from the spell. Without the spell, you don't have the ability. If somebody finds an ability that steals an active spell, someone using it on a spell on you doesn't leave you with the abilities granted by the spell forever; they go away.

So... I'm never going to agree with you on that one.

It seems to me that if something says "you get X", arguing that X has subcategories is rather completely irrelevant. Absent specification, you would get all the subcategories.
How, then, do you not end up with the duration of the effect? How is it not covered under "abilities"? This seems like such an obvious thing... but then, you have a different perspective.

Again, it seems very obvious to me that "something that grants you X" and "X" are different categories of things. I see no difficulty in a definition that divides, for example, "things that provide you with money" and "money".
Yet both are "things", are they not? And "abilities" doesn't list specific sub-categories.


That's backwards. There are already unambiguous RAW things that are unambiguously broken. Why tie yourself in knots arguing for a non-broken reading -- which is almost always not the reading that is best for the game -- when you're going to be houseruling anyway, and could put in a ruling that is actually good for the game, instead of merely plausible and non-broken?
Because I'm not tying myself in knots? These things are very, very obvious from my perspective. You don't see them? Well, you've got a different perspective.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I tend to look at it more simply
Simplistic, yes. You're missing crucial nuance.


And that is the problem Sleven seems to be trying to point out:
Astral Seed was manifested by the fused being, so it's the fused being that comes back (assuming it's soul is available, because it doesn't exactly die when the power ends...). But in Fusion, it never actually says you are the fused being. In fact, it goes out of it's way to make a distinction between you, the other person, and the fused being. So you Fuse with some other creature, manifest Astral Seed, and kill yourself... oops. The fused being is the one that manifested Astral Seed, not you.
"You" don't have to "be" the fused being (whatever that means*). As player, you merely have to control it, in order to keep playing it as your PC. As character, I would argue that being situated in and in control of the fused being, with your memories and consciousness intact, is enough "being the fused being" that you would consider its body "your body". The result of fusion is one creature under your control, and that's enough.

From the player perspective, if a DM who doesn't let you continue playing the fused being because it's not "you" enough (despite the fact that it's under your control, has all your abilities, memories, skills, etcetera), then that's a really passive-aggressive way to say "you can't use fusion + astral seed". We shouldn't consider that a reasonable way of dealing with fusion + astral seed. As Cosi said: "Why tie yourself in knots arguing for a non-broken reading -- which is almost always not the reading that is best for the game -- when you're going to be houseruling anyway, and could put in a ruling that is actually good for the game, instead of merely plausible and non-broken?".

From a character perspective, I'd say that using the combination is tantamount to admitting that you don't mind giving up the existence of your pre-fusion self in return for the existence of the fused self. Of course, there could be some really interesting RP consequences of having the constituent creatures of a fused PC out there somewhere. Esoteric-but-awesome uses of mechanics call for equally esoteric-but-awesome plot developments.


*It's almost impossible to discuss the "being yourself"-aspect of fusion + astral seed without getting into age-old philosophical debates about the meaning of personal identity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_identity). I mean, having that discussion is not a problem per se, but it's not likely that we're going to resolve what it means to "be oneself" with the additional interference from briefly-described magic powers.

[liquidformat]

i like this idea. I just need to find a version of the philosopher's stone that doesn't suck.

Again I don't think the stone itself is important from a rules point of view. I believe the only important part here is deciding what becoming a 'god' means, the functional rules associated with godhood, and if all three paths to 'godhood' give you the same result or different results. Everything else is just fluff/story/world building. Sure the alchemist stone can turn other items into gold and it would be good to flesh out how that mechanically works but if your only focus is the granting 'godhood' aspect then the object itself isn't important.

I think it could be interesting if you have each path lead to a different meaning of 'godhood' however, in that case you either have to balance them all against each other or be clear and upfront that there is a difference in power even if you are vague about the exact difference. For example if a ritual grants you the paragon template vs the philosopher's stone granting you purely immortality it would be important for players to understand the difference in magnitude of power up front.

I also believe having hard rules on the creation of the alchemist stone, ritual of godhood, and zen astro enlightenment is probably not that important. It seems to me achieving 'godhood' should be a full story arc or adventure in and of itself. I think full metal alchemist and his quest to find the secrets of creating the alchemist stone is a great example of this. You have a character going on an epic quest to find the secret recipe for the alchemist stone only to end up finding out it is soylent green... Heck could be pretty interesting if characters find out that the secret to godhood is paved on a mountain of corpses, granted that is probably pretty dark for many settings.

[Jack_Simth]

"You" don't have to "be" the fused being (whatever that means*). As player, you merely have to control it, in order to keep playing it as your PC. As character, I would argue that being situated in and in control of the fused being, with your memories and consciousness intact, is enough "being the fused being" that you would consider its body "your body". The result of fusion is one creature under your control, and that's enough.
If an enemy casts Simulacrum, Ice Assasin, or any similar effect to make a copy of you, are you the one that decides how it acts? Why do you think you're in control of the fused being after the Astral Seed contingency goes into effect? It's only under your control for the duration, which is long since gone. Or are you arguing that the DM should be able to permanently get your character under an NPC's thumb via getting your character under a dominate effect, forcing you to astral seed, then killing you? How would that ever be remedied under your interpretation?

Much, much better if the effect is copied, then the duration runs out and it ends. Plus gives the added benefit of keeping anything on which you've spent the XP for Incarnate or Permanency.

Also: Unless you're planning on killing the other participant, too (during the fusion), the fused being never technically dies.


From the player perspective, if a DM who doesn't let you continue playing the fused being because it's not "you" enough (despite the fact that it's under your control, has all your abilities, memories, skills, etcetera), then that's a really passive-aggressive way to say "you can't use fusion + astral seed". We shouldn't consider that a reasonable way of dealing with fusion + astral seed. Curious... where do you get that I wouldn't tell a player when the player declares intent, without giving them a chance to cancel the action? I'm familiar with the faulty trick, so here's how it'd play out at a table I'm running:

The player declares intent (or actions, if they don't realize yet).
I call for both a reactive Psicraft and Kn(Psionics) check at a reasonable DC (probably 5 higher than that needed to ID the higher-level of the two powers involved, so 28), and consider succeeding at either a success.
Being a Psion-18 or so (the most likely scenario, anyway; both powers are discipline-specific to different disciplines, and Expanded Knowledge - the most common way of getting a cross-discipline power - requires that it be one level lower than the highest-level power you can manifest... so if you're picking it up an 8th level cross-discipline power, it'll usually be at 18th), the player will almost always make that DC. Especially rolling both.
So I tell the player: "Your knowledge of psionics alerts you to the issue that it doesn't interact the way you want, and the best case scenario results in you sacrificing yourself to bring a new creature to life... which would not be you, and may not work at all."

That's hardly being "passive aggressive". Kindly stop assigning intent to me.


As Cosi said: "Why tie yourself in knots arguing for a non-broken reading Just like I said to Corsi, which you apparently skipped: "Because I'm not tying myself in knots?" Or as Sleven said:

The knot tying here appears to be being done by you and Mortis. You're the ones claiming that spells ignore all their established rules in this specific instance to fit the interpretation you want.

Spells on the body being copied as part of the bit about "an exact duplicate of your body at the time you manifested astral seed" as spelled out in Astral Seed solves most issues with the power nicely (and nobody seems to have responded to that point at all...). It now works very much like the standard Clone spell, at the same level, but cheaper and with some slight associated risks (the seed getting disturbed, mainly). You don't get Instantly enslaved, you don't got Instantly polymorphed, you keep the spells you spent XP on, and so on.


-- which is almost always not the reading that is best for the game -- when you're going to be houseruling anyway, and could put in a ruling that is actually good for the game, instead of merely plausible and non-broken?".
A table ruling on things not overly clearly defined, and a house rule are not the same thing. They really aren't.

Also: How is "No, you can't lose a level to gain all the abilities ever undispellably" not "good for the game"?

[Xar Zarath]

Becoming "God" or rather the attainment of divinity as a stat/template is kinda off the book, rather make your own adventure from my point of view. You can be powerful enough that not many creatures can stand up to you but to become a god should probably be an epic/mythic adventure.

Such as PF's Test of the Starstone

[noob]

Becoming "God" or rather the attainment of divinity as a stat/template is kinda off the book, rather make your own adventure from my point of view. You can be powerful enough that not many creatures can stand up to you but to become a god should probably be an epic/mythic adventure.

Such as PF's Test of the Starstone

Honestly being a god is not what makes you invincible.
It is alter reality or spellcasting.
Most gods that lacks alter reality and lacks spellcasting are easily defeatable by people that have one of the two mentioned properties.