Warlock bard build advice -- new player

[Shonuff]

I'm completely new to 5E, but I dabbled a bit with 3e & 4e, and played 2e extensively. We are still setting up the campaign: players (maybe 4 PCs?) classes, etc. I know one player wants to be a nuker of some sort.

I am planning on building more of a support, face character and decided to build (eventually) a 17 hex blade tomelock/3 lore bard. I figured the versatility of the skills and spells would make up for the Eldritch Master, ASI, known spell, and Invocation.

Now for the questions:

1. Is this feasible? I admit I'm new, so does something about this scream bad idea? Keep in mind I'm playing with a bunch of new RPG players, so upper levels are questionable.

2. Assuming it's a decent idea, would it be better to start level 1 as a bard or a warlock? Basically, is it better to have a Wisdom save and one musical instrument, or Dexterity and three musical instrument skills? I'm leaning towards the Wisdom, but I don't know how necessary musical instrument proficiency is.

3. What are good choices for instruments? Is it merely cosmetic? Lutes, harps, horns the most common?

4. Again assuming 17/3 warlock-bard is decent, what would be a good progression? I was thinking knocking bard out relatively early.

Thanks in advance. Any advice is appreciated.

[sophontteks]

If your new just play a single class. All the classes are really solid and you won't be disappointed. 5e did something really really well here. Any player can play any one class and expect to have a very solid and fun character from level 1 all the way through level 20. Multiclassing isn't bad, but it can screw you if you aren't experienced, and this can really ruin your experience before you give the game a chance.

If you multiclass you will often feel very weak at certain points in the game, especially level 5 when casters get level 3 spells and martial characters get a second attack. This weakness will be mitigated later, but the focus of most dnd games is between levels 5-8. There is a significant chance that your character will be at its weakest for the better part of the campaign.

The character idea you had in mind is not a support. You don't have the awesome support spells of a bard, and even your warlock spells have been held back by 3 full levels. This is a DPS build. Its feasible, but its not what you had in mind. Bladelocks are just plain not supports, and that's pretty much what you are. Basically, if you want to be a support BE a support.

Instruments are your choice. I made a tiefling glamour bard that played a sitar and belly danced. Loved it. Personally I avoid the common instrument tropes like lute. They are overdone.

[Grimmnist]

1. Yeah that sounds feasible but it is more of a DPS than a support (since support features come from Bard). The only issue I see are the power spikes Bard gets at level 5 (Bardic Inspiration regenerates on short rest) and 6 (Pick 2 spells from any spell list to learn). With only a 3 level dip you get all the face/skillmonkey abilities but you aren't going to get too much combat value out of the bard features other than the extra spell slots which are good.

2. Musical instruments aren't important so you should be fine starting with either, plus you can also get proficiency in an instrument from your background. I would say the wisdom save is slightly better since your Dex should naturally be decent already. The only argument for starting Bard is for the skills. If you start Warlock you have to pick 2 skills from the Warlock list + any 1 from multiclassing Bard, if you start Bard you pick any 3 skills.

3. It is merely cosmetic in most games, though the DM might put magical instruments in the world of specific types, I like Lutes.

4. You probably want 2 levels of Warlock very early, this gives you Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast, keeping your damage on curve as you dip. Adding 1 level of Bard makes some sense here as you get Bardic Inspiration, a skill and some extra spell slots, but taking a 3rd level of Warlock is also good since you get 2nd level Pact Magic allowing you to use the ever popular Darkness/Devil's Sight combo. Regardless of what you do at level 3 I would probably try to be at Warlock 3/Bard 2 at level 5.

[Shonuff]

The character idea you had in mind is not a support. You don't have the awesome support spells of a bard, and even your warlock spells have been held back by 3 full levels. This is a DPS build. Its feasible, but its not what you had in mind. Bladelocks are just plain not supports, and that's pretty much what you are. Basically, if you want to be a support BE a support.

Sorry, I think you misunderstood me. I'm not rolling a bladelock. I'm rolling a tomelock. Rituals, a familiar, Guidance, crowd control with Holds, illusions, utility spells/skills, etc.

This might also be a terminology issue. When I say support, I mean anything not damage, tanking or healing. And granted, it will be more on the damaging side, but I'm aiming for more utility.


1. Yeah that sounds feasible but it is more of a DPS than a support (since support features come from Bard). The only issue I see are the power spikes Bard gets at level 5 (Bardic Inspiration regenerates on short rest) and 6 (Pick 2 spells from any spell list to learn). With only a 3 level dip you get all the face/skillmonkey abilities but you aren't going to get too much combat value out of the bard features other than the extra spell slots which are good.

I thought about taking bard higher -- I played them in 2,3,4e and just about everything else. But I wanted the option of the 9th level warlock spells.

Additionally, the bard spell slots could all go to Hex -- freeing up Pact slots for other spells, and rituals wouldn't be such an issue. Concentration could be broken and Hex could simply be recast.



3. It is merely cosmetic in most games, though the DM might put magical instruments in the world of specific types, I like Lutes.

Ok, I wasn't sure if 5e had the specific instruments that (from my experience) 2e did.


Welcome.
1. Yes, it’s feasible.
2. Start lock for WIS. The instrument thing is just fluff.
3. Any are fine. I go whistle as it’s small and I can create one via Prestidigitation for M purposes.
4. I’d go 2 lock then 3 bard then finish lock.

Interesting about the whistle... hadn't thought about that.

I was leaning towards the WIS saves. Damage can be healed, but failing WIS saves usually stinks. Thanks for the advice!

[lunaticfringe]

There are specific Instruments, they are listed as Tools. 90% of the time people will allow whatever but it is possible your DM will be a stickler or new to dming and less flexible.

There are Instruments of the Bard, magic items that can cast spells like staves. To my knowledge You can still use them to cast spells & as a focus even if you aren't proficient with the specific type of instrument.

Personally, I prefer the old Spell Component Pouch. Usable by all Casters and 5e assumes you are constantly collecting the bits & bobs to fill it.

[Bundin]

I thought about taking bard higher -- I played them in 2,3,4e and just about everything else. But I wanted the option of the 9th level warlock spells.
Will you realistically hit level 20 though? I've stopped considering anything above level 12 in my plans, as I've never even made it to that level :)

[Azgeroth]

lore bard all the way,

yes tome lock gets ALL THE RITUALS!! (Theoretically, if you can find them,, and afford to scribe them, so maybe not?) also your REALLY limited on spell slots, no level 1 healing words for you my friend..

lore bard gets you more slots, inspiration, cuttting words, awesome control spells amongst other utilities, and MAGICAL SECRETS! which you can retrain, so you can take those yummy level 9 warlock spells as a bard, or any other spell that takes your fancy.. and there are no finer party faces than a bard.

in terms of control and general 'utility' you should be looking at bard / wizard / druid. but no one does support/face like a bard.

[Shonuff]

Will you realistically hit level 20 though? I've stopped considering anything above level 12 in my plans, as I've never even made it to that level :)

Lol no. But if I didn't think it was possible, then it definitely would.

[sophontteks]

Sorry, I think you misunderstood me. I'm not rolling a bladelock. I'm rolling a tomelock. Rituals, a familiar, Guidance, crowd control with Holds, illusions, utility spells/skills, etc.
I was saying this because you picked hexblade, which is very focused on dps. By multiclassing you are holding back all of the good suport spells from both bard and warlock. Its significant enough to say that you are not really a support. Your biggest strength is your Eldritch blast as dps.

Your character is trying to be literally every role. This is a team game. Just fill the niche your team is missing. For example, if you have a wizard in your team there is no need to be a tomelock. If there is a cleric or druid, there is no need for guidance. If you know what your party is it may aid in your decision making.

Just for clarification on party roles they are Tanking, dps, support, control, and utility. Healing is considered support.

[Vogie]

They probably picked Hexblade for Medium armor & Shield proficiency, to save an invocation from Armor of Shadows

Using just bard spell slots for hex gives you about 6 hours of Hex / Long rest, which certainly works.

I agree with being Warlock 3 / Bard 2 for the first 5. I would suggest picking up Agonizing Blast at some point, but you don't need it early because it isn't your focus. If you really need to pump out damage, putting both Hexblade's Curse and Hex on a single target will still let you pump out serious damage.

If the DM indicates that you likely won't make it to 20 for the big Mystic Arcanum spells, I'd probably try to get another 3 levels of Bard for Additional Magical Secrets and Font of Inspiration

[Keravath]

I'm completely new to 5E, but I dabbled a bit with 3e & 4e, and played 2e extensively. We are still setting up the campaign: players (maybe 4 PCs?) classes, etc. I know one player wants to be a nuker of some sort.

I am planning on building more of a support, face character and decided to build (eventually) a 17 hex blade tomelock/3 lore bard. I figured the versatility of the skills and spells would make up for the Eldritch Master, ASI, known spell, and Invocation.

Now for the questions:

1. Is this feasible? I admit I'm new, so does something about this scream bad idea? Keep in mind I'm playing with a bunch of new RPG players, so upper levels are questionable.

2. Assuming it's a decent idea, would it be better to start level 1 as a bard or a warlock? Basically, is it better to have a Wisdom save and one musical instrument, or Dexterity and three musical instrument skills? I'm leaning towards the Wisdom, but I don't know how necessary musical instrument proficiency is.

3. What are good choices for instruments? Is it merely cosmetic? Lutes, harps, horns the most common?

4. Again assuming 17/3 warlock-bard is decent, what would be a good progression? I was thinking knocking bard out relatively early.

Thanks in advance. Any advice is appreciated.

Hi!

Yes your character can work. Almost anything can work in 5e. However, as some have mentioned your character is likely to be more DPS oriented than support. The primary reason is the lack of spell slots. A warlock will only have 2 spell slots/short rest up to level 11 when they get a third. This may significantly limit what you can do in terms of support casting.

The tome is good to increase your available spells BUT these are only ritual spells and can only be cast as rituals which will take 10 minutes+usual casting time. In addition, most rituals come from level 1,2 ... there are a few higher level rituals like leomund's tiny hut at 3rd level but most of the commonly used rituals are level 1,2 (detect magic, comprehend languages, alarm etc).

Most warlocks rely on eldritch+agonizing blast for ranged damage when needed since you will find that you can't cast a spell every round and as a result you will either be using melee or casting cantrips for damage. Since you are planning tomelock you won't be using melee since you don't have extra attack from thirsting blade and bladelock. In addition, with only 2 spell slots and a couple from bard, you won't be casting spells that much either ... so you will have lots of opportunity to use eldritch blast.

Another approach to your concept might be to invert it ... 17 lore bard/3 hexblade tomelock warlock is a very effective character as both a support caster and a party face. They will have access to all rituals up to level 2 and enough spell slots to be effective in combat casting lots of very good support and control spells (hypnotic pattern, blindness, suggestion, faerie fire, dissonant whispers) and can have eldritch+agonizing blast for a fallback when they have nothing else to do or just need to do damage.

P.S. Just for disclosure sake :) ... I have a level 10 character - 8 lore bard/2 hexblade warlock that has played very well so far. He started as warlock for the wisdom saving throw proficiency and was 3 lord bard/2 warlock at level 5. He uses eldritch+agonizing blast for damage when needed since bard cantrips are a bit weak on damage. The magical secrets feature of lore bard lets you pick up two spells from ANY class which can really increase your versatility.

As a general rule:
- dex saves are frequently against damaging spells
- wis saves are against control/charm spells
- con saves are against poison/spells that target your body BUT also concentration saving throws to maintain concentration on a spell when you take damage ... as a caster you will probably eventually want to have proficiency with con saving throws.

.. so starting with wis saves is probably preferable in the long run

Choice of instrument proficiencies is up to you ... but keep in mind that there are Instruments of the Bards which your DM could put in the game so being proficient with one or more of those would probably be useful but not required.

As a bard, you might also want to be proficient in the performance skill. Expertise can be useful in at least persuasion and possibly deception ... though expertise in perception can be useful for spotting traps/ambushes/secret doors etc.

Finally, the lore bard cutting words can be extremely useful since you can turn hits by opponents against you or your team mates into misses as a reaction - depending on the dice rolls - this becomes a short rest resource at level 5 bard which is very useful.

[Vogie]

Another approach to your concept might be to invert it ... 17 lore bard/3 hexblade tomelock warlock is a very effective character as both a support caster and a party face. They will have access to all rituals up to level 2 and enough spell slots to be effective in combat casting lots of very good support and control spells (hypnotic pattern, blindness, suggestion, faerie fire, dissonant whispers) and can have eldritch+agonizing blast for a fallback when they have nothing else to do or just need to do damage.

I'd actually second this as well, as you can make up a custom Mythic Arcanum using Magical Secrets. You'd instead use your 1-2 short rest slots for Hex, then your long rest slots for normal spells.

[KnotaGuru]

Another approach to your concept might be to invert it ... 17 lore bard/3 hexblade tomelock warlock is a very effective character as both a support caster and a party face. They will have access to all rituals up to level 2 and enough spell slots to be effective in combat casting lots of very good support and control spells (hypnotic pattern, blindness, suggestion, faerie fire, dissonant whispers) and can have eldritch+agonizing blast for a fallback when they have nothing else to do or just need to do damage.

Also agree with this if you REALLY feel the need to multiclass. Lore Bard by itself is fantastic. If you stayed at Bard 3 you would be kicking yourself for only having 3-5 uses of inspiration per long rest. Multiclassing delays your main class progression. Since this is your first experience with 5e, is recommend embracing 1 class and see what it can do. DnD is a team game, no character can do it all alone, this is by design. If you wan by to play support, lore Bard is a great choice. They also make great controllers. Their damage is terrible, but once you have the control spell out, just sit back an be let your team finish it off. Remember, most 5e spells use concentration. So hex would compete with your main job of support & control. If you want armored support, play a cleric or even a paladin.

[PastorofMuppets]

I’d had an idea for this cross class too, a lore bard crossed with a great old one pact warlock using the power of music to grow the cult of Cthulhu(or equivalent being of madness).

It was vetoed sadly as being too likely to break the world.

[MilkmanDanimal]

Doing pretty much this thing, except less planned. Started Fiendlock 1, found a magic lute and for RP reasons took Bard, then ran up to Warlock 5 because why not, currently Bard 2 and will go Lore at 3 before Warlock all the way. I've been collecting and buying ritual spells, and with being a Tomelock can cast a ridiculous number of spells, and the character is basically designed to be at least pretty good at everything out of combat, and just fling Eldritch Blast in combat. And fireball, of course (hooray Fiend pact).

Clearly, as "pure" support Lore Bard is pretty much idea, but even three levels of it is going to give you 4 1st and 2 2nd level slots, along with handy support options like Healing Word, Faerie Fire, and Heat Metal, plus all the standard EB + Agonizing Blast goodness, along with long rest Bardic Inspiration + Jack of All Trades for being pretty good at everything (particularly if Guidance is one of your Tome cantrips). Lore 3/Warlock X is actually a very easy way to play, so, as a new player, it's actually not a bad plan. It's a fun combo.