Twin Simulacrum

[MaxWilson]

I see nothing in the text of Simulacrum or Twinned Spell that would prevent you from casting either Twinned Simulacrum (very niche, requires weird multiclassing) or Twinned Wish (Simulacrum), as long as you create Simulacra of two separate targets, e.g. yourself and the party fighter.

That's pretty interesting.

Thoughts?

[Willie the Duck]

My thoughts include:

1) Simulacrum has had issues with most editions and 5e is no exception. I think the designers are resigned to certain Simulacrum shenanigans. I honestly think that they knew about Simulacrum-Wish and left it in there, as at least now this editions near-infinite-Wish-loop was nice and obvious and we could get it out of the way.

2) This specific exploit saves you some money and casting time (and a high level spell slot, I suppose). Not bad, but not really where the spell goes off the rails. Overall, if that's what you want to do with a sorcerer (wish as one of your precious level 9 spells) or as you say, really odd MC, go right ahead.

[MaxWilson]

2) This specific exploit saves you some money and casting time (and a high level spell slot, I suppose). Not bad, but not really where the spell goes off the rails. Overall, if that's what you want to do with a sorcerer (wish as one of your precious level 9 spells) or as you say, really odd MC, go right ahead.

It's more a fringe benefit that I noticed as I was doodling out a notional 20th level party that I rolled up to fight Tiamat. The Divine Soul was going to pre-cast Twin Regeneration, Twin Death Ward, Aid V, Simulacrum, and Holy Aura--and then I wondered why I wasn't Twinning Simulacrum while I was at it. Duplicating the Sharpshooter and the Moon Druid gives the party another Shapechanged Nightwalker, which is a good thing in the context of a Tiamat fight.

It's like, sure, why not?

[Ganymede]

Simulacrum doesn't target anything (arguably, it could target the pile of snow) and Twin Spell only works on spells that target one creature.

[Galithar]

Simulacrum doesn't target anything (arguably, it could target the pile of snow) and Twin Spell only works on spells that target one creature.

False.

Simulacrum is a touch range spell that targets the creature you are duplicating, requiring them to remain within range (touch) for the duration of the casting (12 hours holding hands with your buddy the Moon Druid and Sharpshooter?)

If it was targeting the pile of snow, you wouldn't logically need the target in range the entire time.

[MaxWilson]

Simulacrum doesn't target anything (arguably, it could target the pile of snow) and Twin Spell only works on spells that target one creature.

Can you support your argument textually, or is that just your call as DM?

Compare Simulacrum to, say, Revivify or Contagion. They all have a range of Touch, and in 5E there isn't a separate "Area of Effect" or "Target" entry. Do you have an argument for treating some of them differently? Is it just the fact that the original is not altered by Simulacrum?


Simulacrum is a touch range spell that targets the creature you are duplicating, requiring them to remain within range (touch) for the duration of the casting (12 hours holding hands with your buddy the Moon Druid and Sharpshooter?)

In the specific case of the notional Moon Druid and Sharpshooter it is only about six seconds, not twelve hours, because it's cast via Twinned Wish (Simulacrum).

[Ganymede]

PHB, Pg 204 - "A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell’s magic. A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect (described below)."

The Simulacrum spell does not affect (or have an effect on) a creature, nor does the spell's description specify any target.

The only thing that the spell can be argued to affect is the pile of material components, which is not a creature.

[MaxWilson]

PHB, Pg 204 - "A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell’s magic. A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect (described below)."

The Simulacrum spell does not affect (or have an effect on) a creature, nor does the spell's description specify any target.

The only thing that the spell can be argued to affect is the pile of material components, which is not a creature.

Okay, I could buy that interpretation. Not sure I share it (I think "Range: Touch" is part of the description), but it seems not unreasonable and wouldn't break my suspension of disbelief it the DM ruled it that way. It's a perfectly good ruling.

[Galithar]

You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell.

Emphasis mine to show the target in the description of the spell. It you are not targeting that beast/humanoid then does like haste don't have a Target either as it's spell description is almost identical in "creature that you can see within range". Haste requires sight of the target and Simulacrum requires it to be a beast or humanoid are the only differences in targeting.

[Zalabim]

Simulacrum doesn't target only one creature. It also creates a creature. Arguably, it would creature one duplicate that is somehow both creatures. I'm thinking about talks surrounded Maximillian's Earthen Grasp. One hand grabs two targets, or two hands each grab one target. Well, you can't technically twin MEG anyway.

Because of the errata to Twin Spell, you cannot ever twin Wish because it is able to target more than one creature.

[Kaliayev]

Twinned Wish (Simulacrum), as long as you create Simulacra of two separate targets, e.g. yourself and the party fighter.

Wish has a range of self. It can't be twinned, chief.

[Willie the Duck]

Wish has a range of self. It can't be twinned, chief.

Good catch. You are duplicating a level 8- spell, and the spell itself can be twinned, but the metamagic check would be on the Wish Spell.

That brings up a different question -- can you use metamagics upon a Wish spell (that you are using to duplicate another spell) where the Wish spell would be eligible for the metamagic, but the spell being duplicated would not be? How would that work?


"Twinned Spell

When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn't have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell's level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).

To be eligible for Twinned Spell, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell's current level. "

[MaxWilson]

Because of the errata to Twin Spell, you cannot ever twin Wish because it is able to target more than one creature.


Wish has a range of self. It can't be twinned, chief.

Good catch. I find that argument persuasive.

That means that the only way to twin Simulacrum is to multiclass wizard 17/sorcerer 3, which is so weird that probably no one will ever do it (I think--unless they want to be a Subtle, Twinning Illusionist?). I guess technically you could multiclass wizard 13/sorcerer 3/whatever 4 instead, but that seems even more unlikely.

Conclusion: perhaps possible (ask your DM for a ruling on Simulacrum's "target"), but takes a lot of investment.

Thread can now be closed. :)

[Asmotherion]

My thoughts on Simulacrum:

At the Level it's available you're facing things that can get one or even both of your simulacra out as an action/failed save. You're effectively doubling your strategical power but this might end up a decoy with a bit of bad (or good) luck. So basically i believe it's quite alright to have more than one Simulacrum... though whithin reason...

Something about leading up to your Cha mod of creatures effectively then the rest would start not following orders or something.

You can have any number of Simulacra waiting for you in your tower-lab or something but only a limited amound of pokemon with you? :P

[JackPhoenix]

Good catch. I find that argument persuasive.

That means that the only way to twin Simulacrum is to multiclass wizard 17/sorcerer 3, which is so weird that probably no one will ever do it (I think--unless they want to be a Subtle, Twinning Illusionist?). I guess technically you could multiclass wizard 13/sorcerer 3/whatever 4 instead, but that seems even more unlikely.

Conclusion: perhaps possible (ask your DM for a ruling on Simulacrum's "target"), but takes a lot of investment.

Thread can now be closed. :)

Simulacrum is level 7 spell, you'll need at least 7 levels of sorcerer to have enough SP to twin it.

[MaxWilson]

Simulacrum is level 7 spell, you'll need at least 7 levels of sorcerer to have enough SP to twin it.

Good point. So this specific trick requires precisely Sorc 7/Wizard 13 to accomplish. Very, very niche.

[Pepi Jordan]

Why multiclass?

Metamagic can be applied to duplicated spells from Wish. It's Sage Advice.
Wish, twin Simulacrum works.
Otherwise, Arcane Trickester 3 (Wizard list)/Sorcerer 13 + Mizzium Apparatus (Uncommon magic item) allows the sorcerer cast Cleric, Sorcerer and Wizard Spells.
Why Wizards?


Thanks guys!



The Sorcerer King envoys it!

[MaxWilson]

Why multiclass?

Metamagic can be applied to duplicated spells from Wish. It's Sage Advice.
Wish, twin Simulacrum works.

I assume that's a reference to this (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/703387962306723841?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E703387962306723841&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2016%2F0 4%2F04%2Fcan-you-twin-a-spell-duplicated-with-wish%2F):



Q: @JeremyECrawford Can you Twin a spell duplicated with Wish? And if you do, how many sorcery points you use?

A: @CantReadBamboo Yes, and use the number of points appropriate for the level of the spell you're duplicating.


I'm no fan of JeremyCrawford, and he didn't exactly provide his reasoning here so we could check it, but let's check the spell text and metamagic text before deciding that he's wrong. I.e. let's do the work that Crawford should have done. Emphasis mine:


Twinned Spell

When you Cast a Spell that Targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).

To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level. For example, Magic Missile and Scorching Ray aren’t eligible, but Ray of Frost is.


Wish

Wish is the mightiest spell a mortal creature can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter the very foundations of reality in accord with your desires.

The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly Components. The spell simply takes effect.

After discussion on this thread, I was of the mind that Wish (like Wildfire before it, in AD&D) simply duplicates the effect of any spell of 8th level or lower, and that therefore it isn't eligible for Twinning. I see now that the spell doesn't use that language. It duplicates "any other spell of 8th level or lower." So I can buy that Simulacrum is not running afoul of "must be incapable of targeting more than one creature" because Simulacrum is a separate spelll from Wish.

But we're not done yet, because now we run into another question: when you cast Wish, do you also cast Simulacrum? It says "the spell simply takes effect," not "you cast the spell," but does that count as you casting it? Crawford apparently says yes, which makes Wish-created spells eligible for metamagic including Careful, Heightened and Twinned, so Twinned Simulacrum would be legal by Crawford's ruling.

I'm not convinced. After re-examining the language of Wish I'm inclined to say, "I don't think there is a Simulacrum caster in this case. You cast Wish, and Simulacrum took effect, but you can't Twin Simulacrum because you didn't cast it--you just inserted your Wish token in the universe's wish-granter and a Simulacrum came out, but you still have no idea how to cast Simulacrum and you aren't able to Twin it." This approach makes the most sense in the game fiction and I think is most strictly compatible with the spell text of Wish.

So it would appear, probably, that you can neither Twin Simulacrum nor cast Careful Symbol of Insanity. Double nerf-bat for my notional Divine Soul's intended tactics. (Instead, he'll have to cast a regular Symbol of Insanity set to trigger "as soon as I'm more than 60' away," and then use Expeditious Retreat or a Phantom Steed from another PC to get away right after casting the spell. It's still good, just not quite as good as instantaneous Careful Symbol of Insanity would be.)

[Pepi Jordan]

I assume that's a reference to



I'm no fan of JeremyCrawford, and he didn't exactly provide his reasoning here so we could check it, but let's check the spell text and metamagic text before deciding that he's wrong. I.e. let's do the work that Crawford should have done. Emphasis mine:





After discussion on this thread, I was of the mind that Wish (like Wildfire before it, in AD&D) simply duplicates the effect of any spell of 8th level or lower, and that therefore it isn't eligible for Twinning. I see now that the spell doesn't use that language. It duplicates "any other spell of 8th level or lower." So I can buy that Simulacrum is not running afoul of "must be incapable of targeting more than one creature" because Simulacrum is a separate spelll from Wish.

But we're not done yet, because now we run into another question: when you cast Wish, do you also cast Simulacrum? It says "the spell simply takes effect," not "you cast the spell," but does that count as you casting it? Crawford apparently says yes, which makes Wish-created spells eligible for metamagic including Careful, Heightened and Twinned, so Twinned Simulacrum would be legal by Crawford's ruling.

I'm not convinced. After re-examining the language of Wish I'm inclined to say, "I don't think there is a Simulacrum caster in this case. You cast Wish, and Simulacrum took effect, but you can't Twin Simulacrum because you didn't cast it--you just inserted your Wish token in the universe's wish-granter and a Simulacrum came out, but you still have no idea how to cast Simulacrum and you aren't able to Twin it." This approach makes the most sense in the game fiction and I think is most strictly compatible with the spell text of Wish.

So it would appear, probably, that you can neither Twin Simulacrum nor cast Careful Symbol of Insanity. Double nerf-bat for my notional Divine Soul's intended tactics. (Instead, he'll have to cast a regular Symbol of Insanity set to trigger "as soon as I'm more than 60' away," and then use Expeditious Retreat or a Phantom Steed from another PC to get away right after casting the spell. It's still good, just not quite as good as instantaneous Careful Symbol of Insanity would be.)

It's not only about twin. But He also confirmed about Distant Metamagic working on Duplicated Spell from Wish.
I works.

[JackPhoenix]

Speaking of JC and Simulacrum, I also found this gem (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/08/10/3-yes-no-questions-about-simulacrum-after-it-does-a-long-rest/). Unfortunately, that's not supported by RAW at all. Too bad it didn't make it into the latest errata.

[Pepi Jordan]

Speaking of JC and Simulacrum, I also found . Unfortunately, that's not supported by RAW at all. Too bad it didn't make it into the latest errata.

By RAW level 20 sorcerer simulacrum regain 4 sorcery point per short rest. Creating spells slots. It's the best simulacrum..
Now with twin. It is ... amazing.

[JackPhoenix]

By RAW level 20 sorcerer simulacrum regain 4 sorcery point per short rest. Creating spells slots. It's the best simulacrum..
Now with twin. It is ... amazing.

Actually, that's the only part of RAW that fits with that SA: sorcerer simulacrum gets 4 sorcery points, but can't use them to create spell slots.

[MaxWilson]

It's not only about twin. But He also confirmed about Distant Metamagic working on Duplicated Spell from Wish.
I works.

Proof By Repeated Assertion is not persuasive. I've already rejected Appeal To Authority because Crawford doesn't have any special authority outside of WotC-sponsored events like Adventurer's Leagure, which I don't play.

It probably doesn't work by strict RAW, and unfortunately Careful probably doesn't work with Wish either, but ask your DM. After all, sometimes it's more fun to ignore the RAW.


Actually, that's the only part of RAW that fits with that SA: sorcerer simulacrum gets 4 sorcery points, but can't use them to create spell slots.

Green text for hypothetical "RAW" discussion that won't matter in practice:

A simulacrum cannot "regain expended spell slots" but nothing prevents a simulacrum with full spell slots from creating spell slots from sorcery points.

For a simulacrum which has expended spell slots, it may or may not be able to create new spell slots of the same level via sorcery points--ask your DM--but it can probably still create spell slots of other levels.

[Galithar]

I disagree that Metamagic shouldn't work with wish. In fact I think Metamagic should work with wish, even if you aren't a Sorcerer.

Wish duplicates ANY spell. I will argue that a twinned disintegrate is a spell and therefore capable of being duplicated. The caster isn't using the Metamagic, the wish is!

Edit: To clarify, I'm giving my opinion and interpretation, not claiming RAW.

[MaxWilson]

I disagree that Metamagic shouldn't work with wish. In fact I think Metamagic should work with wish, even if you aren't a Sorcerer.

Wish duplicates ANY spell. I will argue that a twinned disintegrate is a spell and therefore capable of being duplicated. The caster isn't using the Metamagic, the wish is!

Edit: To clarify, I'm giving my opinion and interpretation, not claiming RAW.

That's an interesting argument. If I understand you correctly, you'd let a Wizard cast a Twinned Simulacrum or Careful Symbol of Insanity as part of the basic Wish "duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower", on the theory that Careful Symbol of Insanity is still a spell of 8th level or lower, and that someone could theoretically cast that spell? Would you let the Wizard cast a DC 19 Careful Symbol of Insanity even if the wizard had only Int 16, on the same theory?

Just curious about how far you'd follow that logic.

[Kaliayev]

I disagree that Metamagic shouldn't work with wish. In fact I think Metamagic should work with wish, even if you aren't a Sorcerer.

Wish duplicates ANY spell. I will argue that a twinned disintegrate is a spell and therefore capable of being duplicated. The caster isn't using the Metamagic, the wish is!

Edit: To clarify, I'm giving my opinion and interpretation, not claiming RAW.

Some metamagic options can apply to wish based on RAW. Others cannot. Imo, this (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/128061/can-you-apply-metamagic-to-a-wished-spell) is the best analysis I've seen of how metamagic interacts with wish. That being said, twinning a duplicated spell has got to be one of the silliest things to make it into SAC, but it's certainly in there. One can appeal to it when trying to pull off such shenanigans, but I wouldn't suggest doing so.

[Willie the Duck]

That's an interesting argument. If I understand you correctly, you'd let a Wizard cast a Twinned Simulacrum or Careful Symbol of Insanity as part of the basic Wish "duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower", on the theory that Careful Symbol of Insanity is still a spell of 8th level or lower, and that someone could theoretically cast that spell? Would you let the Wizard cast a DC 19 Careful Symbol of Insanity even if the wizard had only Int 16, on the same theory?

Just curious about how far you'd follow that logic.

FWIW, my interpretation is that that wouldn't work. Symbol is a spell, Careful Symbol is not a spell, it is a spell with a metamagic rider. Applying the metamagic to Symbol did not create a new spell on the list of potential spells one can replicate with Wish.

[MaxWilson]

FWIW, my interpretation is that that wouldn't work. Symbol is a spell, Careful Symbol is not a spell, it is a spell with a metamagic rider. Applying the metamagic to Symbol did not create a new spell on the list of potential spells one can replicate with Wish.

I share your interpretation, but I'm curious anyway.

[Greywander]

FWIW, my interpretation is that that wouldn't work. Symbol is a spell, Careful Symbol is not a spell, it is a spell with a metamagic rider. Applying the metamagic to Symbol did not create a new spell on the list of potential spells one can replicate with Wish.
While this is certainly a valid way of looking at things, allow me to offer a counter-argument: a wizard only has one 9th level spell slot, ergo it could only cast one spell 8th level or lower with metamagic via Wish. The sorcerer, on the other hand, can use metamagic all day, while the wizard has to burn their one and only 9th level slot for it. This doesn't strike me as too unbalanced, although I know many feel that wizards are already better than sorcerers and don't need an extra hand.

Alternatively, you could absolutely use Wish to cast any spell, including 9th level ones, with as many metamagics as you like. However, doing so means you have a 1 in 3 chance you can never cast Wish again, as per the normal rules of Wish when used for anything other than duplicating a spell 8th level or lower.

[strangebloke]

Ah simulacrum.

There is no edition or universe in which simulacrum doesn't just just make confetti out of the rules.

I agree that this works, of course, as there's not really any grounds to say that it doesn't. The real question is, what is the best way to do this? Multiclassing is awkward, and only really works for this if you go something silly like wizard13/sorcerer 7, and it wouldn't work until exactly 20th level. The straight sorc build can do this at 17 with wish and doesn't lose nearly as much important stuff.

Personally I'd favor divine soul here, for reasons that I think are obvious. Cleric has a lot of good concentration spells, and this build is all about cheesing concentration.

...Although, actually I don't see it. Huh. Oh well. Still a very strong combo.

The Sorcerer King defeats all enemies.

[JackPhoenix]

While this is certainly a valid way of looking at things, allow me to offer a counter-argument: a wizard only has one 9th level spell slot, ergo it could only cast one spell 8th level or lower with metamagic via Wish. The sorcerer, on the other hand, can use metamagic all day, while the wizard has to burn their one and only 9th level slot for it. This doesn't strike me as too unbalanced, although I know many feel that wizards are already better than sorcerers and don't need an extra hand.

Thing is, if you go that way, you also open the can of worm with other spell enhancing abilities. Metamagicked Fireball with extra damage bonus from evoker, celestial warlock, Elemental Adept and I-can't-be-bothered-to-figure-what else tacked on is also technically "a spell of 8th level or lower".

[Galithar]

"You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components."

My interpretation hinges on the fact that you don't need to meet the requirement of having Metamagic, or the available sorcery points. It just HAPPENS.

I also think that RAW the most logical ruling (if you disagree with my interpretation of it's use of Metamagic which you both appear to) is to allow the spell to be cast with Metamagic, but classify it as an option of Wish that imposes the penalties of damage on casting spells, reduced strength, and the 33% chance to not be able to wish again.

Basically I think wish is a game world altering spell to begin with, and allowing Metamagic to be used with it's duplicated spells is just a drop in the bucket of the power of the spell. Plus it makes it even more enjoyable for your high level caster to use, and at the point of level 9 spells "balance" went out the door already, so just have fun with it!!

It's probably also worth noting that as a DM I allow Divine interventions to be affected by Metamagic. The player doesn't get to ask for it, they say what they want to happen then as DM I find the appropriate spell/effect and apply Metamagic if I deem it appropriate.

[strangebloke]

Thing is, if you go that way, you also open the can of worm with other spell enhancing abilities. Metamagicked Fireball with extra damage bonus from evoker, celestial warlock, Elemental Adept and I-can't-be-bothered-to-figure-what else tacked on is also technically "a spell of 8th level or lower".

Overchanneled-empowered-draconic-celestial-evoked-sculpted-adept-twinned-8th-level chromatic-orb coming right at you.

[Galithar]

Thing is, if you go that way, you also open the can of worm with other spell enhancing abilities. Metamagicked Fireball with extra damage bonus from evoker, celestial warlock, Elemental Adept and I-can't-be-bothered-to-figure-what else tacked on is also technically "a spell of 8th level or lower".

Those effects aren't in the spell though. And again this is my interpretation, but those effects are all essentially because of X I'm BETTER at this. Whereas Metamagic is "I'm capable of modifying my spells" it actually becomes part of the spell. A twinned firebolt for example is different then a regular firebolt. But a firebolt with the Celestial Warlock damage rider is still just a firebolt.

And again I'm not trying to argue RAW, as none of this is. It's all my interpretation as A DM.

[Galithar]

Overchanneled-empowered-draconic-celestial-evoked-sculpted-adept-twinned-8th-level chromatic-orb coming right at you.

Why are you sculpting a single target spell? :P

[ThePolarBear]

I personally read "The spell just happens" as a consequence of not having to spend time, prep components, spend a slot, and potentially be in range or even have to maintain concentration (it is called a requirement, after all). This doesn't mean you are not casting it, however. You are waived of the requirements (to cast it), you are not waived of the casting.

You wish it in existance, therefore you cast it. The casting process is just VERY different.

[Coffee_Dragon]

You cast Wish. In the crunch you then duplicate Incendiary Cloud, in the fluff you exclaim, "I wish for a burning cloud to incendify my enemies!" and that happens. You do not cast Incendiary Cloud.

It's up to the DM whether adding a metamagic-equivalent bonus to a spell effect is in 33% territory, but you can't just apply metamagic normally to the Wish.

[MaxWilson]

You cast Wish. In the crunch you then duplicate Incendiary Cloud, in the fluff you exclaim, "I wish for a burning cloud to incendify my enemies!" and that happens. You do not cast Incendiary Cloud.

If you'll forgive the digression:

If you make THAT wish, in those words, you risk permanently burning out your ability to cast Wish.

There must be some in-game-fiction distinction between Wish/Any Spell and Wish/Invite DM Fiat, or the spell becomes unusable.

In AD&D they were separate spells: Wildfire for duplicating spells of less than 9th level, Wish for arbitrary stuff. Only Wish aged you five years and forced a system shock roll to avoid death. Wildfire was basically just Anyspell. 5E should have followed suit.

Also, while we're on the subject, 5E's Wish option for rerolling a die roll last round shouldn't trigger the penalties. It's not more powerful than Anyspell and should be treated similarly.

[Coffee_Dragon]

If you make THAT wish, in those words, you risk permanently burning out your ability to cast Wish.

I don't see why you would (unless the DM is a jerk). At the table, of course, you'd communicate in sufficient terms that mechanically you want to emulate Incendiary Cloud. To the extent that you care at all about what is said in the fiction, then it should be something similar to what I wrote, because that's how the spell works (or used to work, and the game worlds are nominally the same). I refuse to conceive of the spell as the caster operating an etheric drop-down menu, choosing between safe and non-safe modes and then navigating down a selection tree of spell level and spells. In the fiction you're just making a wish. At the table players negotiate to resolve that wish as intended within the scope of the spell. The DM can ignore that intent and go, "Oh ho, I choose not to interpret that as being an existing spell!" or "Oh ho, you get a Burning Hands!" but that's just being a jerk.


In AD&D they were separate spells: Wildfire for duplicating spells of less than 9th level, Wish for arbitrary stuff. Only Wish aged you five years and forced a system shock roll to avoid death. Wildfire was basically just Anyspell. 5E should have followed suit.

To add a little more detail, in 2E there were Limited Wish, a 7th-level spell which among other things could "mimic a spell of 7th level or less" (and shaved off 1 year), and Wish which was "a more potent version of a limited wish" without bothering to spell out what that meant in terms of spell levels (5 years, but not a system shock roll in the 2E version).

Notably, Limited Wish was clear that the casting consisted of verbalizing a wish. I choose to believe that this always meant you said, "I wish for [thing corresponding to effect of existing spell which I the player know about] to happen", not "I wish for the spell I'm casting now to mimic [specific existing spell that I the character may or may not know about] thus and so", regardless of the understanding at the table. The obvious convenience of writing the spell in this way is that you get an automatic power baseline and a predefined set of mechanical ways to resolve a number of basic wishes. In later editions these video-game-logic-friendly benefits have evidently been embraced to the point you'd think the designers would just as well that were the entirety of the spell.

In actual play I would probably rule Wish not to inflict stress for most wishes clearly not surpassing 8th-level spells in power and complexity, except I wouldn't want to be in actual play involving regular castings of Wish in the first place.

[MaxWilson]

To add a little more detail, in 2E there were Limited Wish, a 7th-level spell which among other things could "mimic a spell of 7th level or less" (and shaved off 1 year), and Wish which was "a more potent version of a limited wish" without bothering to spell out what that meant in terms of spell levels (5 years, but not a system shock roll in the 2E version).

In 2E, magical aging ALWAYS forces a system shock roll. Ergo casting Wish can kill you.

Anyway, I agree that 5e Wish should have been written differently. From a game fiction standpoint it shouldn't matter whether you're duplicating Find Greater Steed or wishing for a Pegasus; they should both work the same way. Your solution (usually allowing any effect that is clearly not beyond the power of an 8th level spell) is a good solution.

One thing I'd add is the ability to abort the spell during casting rather than accept the stress risk, if it turns out that the wish is more complicated/powerful than anticipated. Lose the action in that case but not the spell slot or the ability to cast Wish. It only takes one extra sentence in the spell description: an extra "if you elect to continue" clause before describing the penalties.

[Coffee_Dragon]

(Digressing from the digression, yay:)


In 2E, magical aging ALWAYS forces a system shock roll. Ergo casting Wish can kill you.

I'm sure you're right - I didn't play enough tabletop 2E for system shock to come up a lot, and none of the computer versions that I know of implemented system shock after for instance Haste, even the ones that did implement aging. (The gold box games applied system shock only after Stone to Flesh, and I think the Infinity Engine games didn't include it at all - certainly you were never told when purchasing Restoration from a temple that your character and the local priest had regrettably both managed to pass away.)

There are a bunch of spells that are sloppily written under the assumption that magical transformation triggers system shock by default, though, including ones in the PHB. Statue invents its own system shock mechanism and says nothing about this being instead of or in addition to a default roll. Tree is a beneficial self-transformation spell but lacks the system shock exemption that Polymorph Self has. And in the spell compendium there are several transformation spells that either do not mention system shock at all (exemptions or otherwise) or, like Dragonshape, list elaborate conditions and procedures for system shock that clearly are meant to override any default mechanism but without actually saying so.

Also it appears there are plenty of people who still play AD&D. I shouldn't actually have been surprised by this.

[MaxWilson]

Also it appears there are plenty of people who still play AD&D. I shouldn't actually have been surprised by this.

I am tempted to join them, but my current commitment is to automating 5E, since 5E makes a better CRPG than AD&D does. I think AD&D is a superior TTRPG though.

[Dark Schneider]

Why multiclass?

Metamagic can be applied to duplicated spells from Wish. It's Sage Advice.
Wish, twin Simulacrum works.
Otherwise, Arcane Trickester 3 (Wizard list)/Sorcerer 13 + Mizzium Apparatus (Uncommon magic item) allows the sorcerer cast Cleric, Sorcerer and Wizard Spells.
Why Wizards?


Thanks guys!



The Sorcerer King envoys it!
It is not the same. You get known spells from Arcane Trickster, not ability to use a Spellbook, that is the point of Wizards. You have your Sorcerer spells, and some Wizard spells from the Arcane Trickster, but that's all. You can't get any Wizard spell and cast it with the Sorcerer.
Remember how spells works, each class has its own ones. As Wizard, you get the ability to use a Spellbook, and you can prepare as many as your Wizard level + INT mod from it. So even if you get some Wizard levels, you could only prepare a few from your Spellbook.
Sorcerer are more powerful with less spells and Wizards have more spells (flexibility).
An excellent combo is getting Wizard and enough Sorcerer levels to get what you want (Metamagic capabilities). So you can get as known Sorcerer spells those you want always prepared, so you don't need to prepare them as Wizard, and also be able to improve any of your spells. And don't forget the Wizard Ritual ability, pretty handy. You also get tons of cantrips.

I have to say that what JC said about twin Wish have surprised me. Taking RAW "in order", this is, I apply the metamagic to the spell I cast (Wish), should not be available, because the spell I cast is range self. If that spell later generates other effect, that's another story.

[JackPhoenix]

It is not the same. You get known spells from Arcane Trickster, not ability to use a Spellbook, that is the point of Wizards. You have your Sorcerer spells, and some Wizard spells from the Arcane Trickster, but that's all. You can't get any Wizard spell and cast it with the Sorcerer.
Remember how spells works, each class has its own ones. As Wizard, you get the ability to use a Spellbook, and you can prepare as many as your Wizard level + INT mod from it. So even if you get some Wizard levels, you could only prepare a few from your Spellbook.
Sorcerer are more powerful with less spells and Wizards have more spells (flexibility).
An excellent combo is getting Wizard and enough Sorcerer levels to get what you want (Metamagic capabilities). So you can get as known Sorcerer spells those you want always prepared, so you don't need to prepare them as Wizard, and also be able to improve any of your spells. And don't forget the Wizard Ritual ability, pretty handy. You also get tons of cantrips.

I have to say that what JC said about twin Wish have surprised me. Taking RAW "in order", this is, I apply the metamagic to the spell I cast (Wish), should not be available, because the spell I cast is range self. If that spell later generates other effect, that's another story.

He's banned again, so he won't respond to you, but he's talking about this thing from Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica:

"While you are wearing the mizzium apparatus, you can use it as an arcane focus. In addition, you can attempt to cast a spell that you do not know or have prepared. The spell you choose must be on your class's spell list and of a level for which you have a spell slot, and you must provide the spell's components.

You expend a spell slot to cast the spell as normal, but before resolving it you must make an Intelligence (Arcana) check. The DC is 10 + twice the level of the spell slot you expend to cast the spell.

On a successful check, you cast the spell as normal, using your spell save DC and spellcasting ability modifier. On a failed check, you cast a different spell from the one you intended. Randomly determine the spell you cast by rolling on the table for the level of the spell slot you expended. If the slot is 6th level or higher, roll on the table for 5th-level spells."

[MaxWilson]

He's banned again, so he won't respond to you, but he's talking about this thing from Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica:

"While you are wearing the mizzium apparatus, you can use it as an arcane focus. In addition, you can attempt to cast a spell that you do not know or have prepared. The spell you choose must be on your class's spell list and of a level for which you have a spell slot, and you must provide the spell's components.

You expend a spell slot to cast the spell as normal, but before resolving it you must make an Intelligence (Arcana) check. The DC is 10 + twice the level of the spell slot you expend to cast the spell.

On a successful check, you cast the spell as normal, using your spell save DC and spellcasting ability modifier. On a failed check, you cast a different spell from the one you intended. Randomly determine the spell you cast by rolling on the table for the level of the spell slot you expended. If the slot is 6th level or higher, roll on the table for 5th-level spells."

I say, that's an extremely powerful Uncommon item. I guess it's a Ravnica thing though.

[Zalabim]

I say, that's an extremely powerful Uncommon item. I guess it's a Ravnica thing though.
Yeah. Ravnica also gives people flamethrowers, henchmen, additional warlock-patron-style spell lists, and the illusionist's bracers, a very rare magic item that lets you cast a cantrip a second time on your turn as a bonus action.

[JackPhoenix]

I say, that's an extremely powerful Uncommon item. I guess it's a Ravnica thing though.

That sort of thing never stopped Drako.