The Brute is dead. Long live the Weapon Master (and weapon specialization).

[Unoriginal]

As Mearls explains here (https://youtu.be/EeV5aZX1mqg) (around the 40 min mark), the backlash against the Brute was enough to kill it.

Which is sad, in my opinion.

However, the concept of a Fighter subclass getting additional damage dice isn't dead. Enter the Weapon Master, a subclass which, among other powers and perks, let you get said additional damage dice, but restricted to one of the groups of weapons at your disposal.

The Weapon Master would also get Superior Fighting styles. I do hope they're careful about those, though.

So yay for those who wanted more weapon specialization.

[McSkrag]

I would love to see a Weapon Master.

I had a Halfling Fighter/Rogue/Weapon Master in 3.5 using a Bastard Sword 2-handed that did insane damage on criticals. He was a one-trick pony, but still super fun to play.

I have not been able to figure out how to recreate him in 5e.

But yeah I hope if they do add a WM they thoroughly playtest it to make sure it is balanced.

[Misterwhisper]

I would love to see a Weapon Master.

I had a Halfling Fighter/Rogue/Weapon Master in 3.5 using a Bastard Sword 2-handed that did insane damage on criticals. He was a one-trick pony, but still super fun to play.

I have not been able to figure out how to recreate him in 5e.

But yeah I hope if they do add a WM they thoroughly playtest it to make sure it is balanced.

I would love it too, but don’t see it happening, they will. It come up with a new idea different than battlemaster or champion as far as a weapon specialist goes.

[Ryuu Hayato]

We need more maneuvers to BM.

[McSkrag]

I would love it too, but don’t see it happening, they will. It come up with a new idea different than battlemaster or champion as far as a weapon specialist goes.

Too late! I'm already holding my breath so there's no turning back. You hear that, Mearls?!?! Make WM happen.

[Morty]

Given now little incentive there is to use different weapons, I'm not sure if a "weapon specialization" feature will be significantly different than just dealing more damage.

[strangebloke]

Given now little incentive there is to use different weapons, I'm not sure if a "weapon specialization" feature will be significantly different than just dealing more damage.
Not necessarily.

Remember the weapon mastery feats? Yeah I expect something like that. Pick a sword for a sword bonus.

[Joe the Rat]

I think the key would be to have it be more than just more damage - rider effects, for example. The Weapon Feats would be my first thought for mining.

The trick is getting something that isn't just Restricted Battle Master or Restricted Style Feat or Battle Champion Combo Platter (Because Improved Crit and Extra Fighting Style, and maneuvers only with your Weapon of Choice is an easy kludge fix).

Kind of makes me yearn for the Exotic Weapon Master PrC from 3.5 - here's a list of things which, depending on your Weapon of Choice, you can add to your trick pool.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I actually wrote up the outlines for a weapon master subclass, where you'd pick specializations that would scale with level (and broaden out). Different weapons would give you different options on attack (or hit).

The level 15 feature I'm not too fond of, but...

You’ve mastered one type of weapon after another. While wielding your mastered weapons, you can perform feats that most can only dream of.

Level Features
3 Weapon Mastery
7 Centering Kata
10 Superior Mastery
15 Field Medicine
18 Weapon Expertise

Weapon Mastery
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you master one family of weapon of your choice, gaining the mastery effect as described at the end of this archetype description while wielding a weapon from that family. You master an additional family at 7th, 10th, 15th, and 18th level. If you gain mastery in a weapon from multiple families, you must choose which set of benefits to apply; they do not stack. You can alter this choice without spending an action, but only once on each of your turns.

Centering Kata
Starting at 7th level, your mastery of your weapons has payed off in an increased personal center. If you spend one minute performing weapon drills as part of a completed short or long rest, you can reroll a number of failed ability checks involving Wisdom or Charisma equal to your Charisma modifier. Any unused uses of this feature are removed when you finish a long or short rest.

Superior Mastery
Starting at 10th level, your master over certain weapon families has grown. Choose one of the weapon families you’ve mastered (including the one gained at this level). You gain the superior mastery effect listed in the description while wielding a weapon from that family. You achieve superior mastery in additional families at 15th and 18th levels. This stacks with your Mastered Weapons feature

Field Medicine
Starting at 15th level, the harsh training you’ve undergone to master your weapons bears related fruit. Not only can you end life, you can restore it to the deceased and heal the wounded. You can use an action to do one of the following:
* Bring a recently dead person back to life as if you had cast revivify on them. You do not expend components and this functions even where spells cannot, although you must obey the time restrictions listed in that spell.
* Touch someone who is at zero hit points and restore hit points to them. You restore hit points equal to half the greater of yours or their maximum hit points.
* End one condition afflicting the target as if you had cast greater restoration on them.
Once you use any part of this feature, you cannot do so again until you complete a long rest.

Weapon Expertise
At 18th level, choose one weapon family you have superior mastery in. You gain the expertise effect listed while wielding a weapon from that family. This stacks with both Superior Mastery and Weapon Mastery.

Weapon Families

Chopping Weapons
Battleaxe, greataxe, halberd, handaxe, and war pick
Mastery: You can reroll any 1s or 2s on a damage roll but must take the second result.
Superior Mastery: When you take the Attack action on your turn you can choose to make one of the attacks at disadvantage. If you hit with this attack, it deals 2 extra dice of damage.
Expertise: When you hit with an attack on your turn, a second enemy within your reach also takes damage equal to your Strength modifier.

Bow
Longbow, shortbow
Mastery: You no longer suffer disadvantage when making ranged attacks when enemies are within 5 feet of you.
Superior Mastery: Once per turn when you hit with a bow, you can force the target to make a CON save against a DC of 8 + your Dexterity modifier + Proficiency. On a failed save the target takes 1 damage for every 5 feet they move until they take their action to remove the arrow.
Expertise: You can use your action to shoot a hail of arrows, affecting all targets you choose within a 90-foot cone. Make an attack roll against each target, dealing damage as normal on a hit. You expend one piece of ammunition for every attack made this way.

Crossbow
Hand crossbow, light crossbow, heavy crossbow
Mastery: You ignore the loading property of crossbows. In addition, you can wield the crossbow as a finesse melee weapon with which you have proficiency. The damage die for this weapon is 1d4.
Superior Mastery: Once per turn when you attack with a crossbow, the bolt continues past the target. Make an attack roll against the first enemy on the 5-foot-wide line between you and your target extending out to the range of the weapon. They have half cover on this attack. If you hit with your first attack, the second target has resistance to the damage of this attack.
Expertise: You can use your action to shoot an explosive bolt from your crossbow. Choose a location within the normal range of your crossbow. All creatures within 10 feet of there must make a Dexterity saving throw against a DC of 8 + your Dexterity modifier + your proficiency bonus. On a failed save they take 6d10 thunder damage and are staggered until the end of their next turn. On a success they take half damage and are not staggered. While staggered, they can either move or take an action but not both. If they attack while staggered, they can only make a single attack.

Crushing
Club, flail, greatclub, light hammer, mace, maul, morningstar, warhammer, quarterstaff
Mastery: Once per turn when you hit a creature, its speed is reduced by 10 feet until the end of your next turn.
Superior Mastery: When you miss with an attack using a crushing weapon, you deal bludgeoning damage equal to your Strength modifier to the target.
Expertise: Once per turn when you hit a creature, you attempt to inflict a staggering wound on the target. The damage dealt increase by 1 weapon die. The target must make a Constitution saving throw against a DC of 8 + your Strength modifier + your proficiency bonus. On a failed save they are staggered until the end of their next turn. While staggered, they can either move or take an action but not both. If they attack while staggered, they can only make a single attack.

Cutting Blade
Glaive, greatsword, longsword, scimitar
Mastery: Whenever you make an opportunity attack you have advantage on the attack roll and the damage dealt increases by one weapon die.
Superior Mastery: When you hit with an attack using a heavy blade and deal less than half of the maximum damage (before applying resistance or immunity), you instead deal half the maximum damage (before applying resistance or immunity).
Expertise: Once per turn when you hit a creature, you attempt to cripple them by striking at a limb or other sensitive area. The damage dealt increases by 1 weapon die and the target must make a Dexterity saving throw against a DC of 8 + your Strength modifier + your proficiency bonus. On a failed save, they have disadvantage on all attacks made until the end of their next turn.

Polearm
Glaive, halberd, lance, pike, trident, spear
Mastery: When an enemy enters your reach, you can use your reaction to make an attack against them. If you do, you have advantage on this attack but that enemy has advantage on its next attack against you until the end of its next turn.
Superior Mastery: Once per turn when you hit an enemy you can take the Shove action against them without spending an action and without the normal size restrictions. The target has disadvantage on the opposed ability check to resist this action.
Expertise: Once per turn when you hit a creature, you attempt to impale them. The damage dealt increases by 1 weapon die and the target must make a Dexterity saving throw against a DC of 8 + your Strength modifier + your proficiency bonus. On a failed save, the target’s speed is reduced to 0 until the end of their next turn and all attacks against them have advantage.

Stabbing Blade
Dagger, rapier, shortsword, sickle
Mastery: Whenever you make an opportunity attack you have advantage on the attack roll and the damage dealt increases by one weapon die.
Superior Mastery: When you hit with an attack and roll less than half the maximum damage, you may reroll a number of damage dice equal to your proficiency modifier and take the second result.
Expertise: Once per turn when make an attack you may choose to make the attack at disadvantage in an attempt to disable their weapons. If you do so and hit, the target must make a Constitution saving throw against a DC of 8 + your Dexterity modifier + your proficiency bonus. On a failed save, the creature cannot attack until the end of their next turn. On a success, the target may only attack once on their next turn, no matter how many times they would normally be able to attack.

Throwing
Dagger, dart, handaxe, javelin, light hammer, sling
Mastery: You may draw any number of thrown weapons in conjunction with the action used to throw them. You ignore the loading property of slings.
Superior Mastery: Both normal and far ranges of any Thrown weapon are doubled and the damage dice increases by one step (1d4 to 1d6, 1d6 to 1d8, etc).
Expertise: You can attack twice for each weapon attack you would normally have. The second attack does not add your ability modifier to the damage dealt.

[carrdrivesyou]

Do I hear a Master Thrower coming??? Or perhaps a crossbow sniper??? This could offer a different take on weapons altogether. Maybe this could open options such as weapon tricks akin to the BM maneuvers, but more potent per weapon group. A BATTLE master and a WEAPON master are two very different things often confused with each other. A guy that trains in archery his entire life might be awful with melee combat, and vice versa.

While the loss of the Brute is sad, I would love to see this evolve into a new take on the fighter, barbarian, or any other martial class. Could be a great way to offer them some more versatility and utility without just giving them a damage boost.

[djreynolds]

Its sad the brute is gone, I would like to see the complaints

I find, humbly, the hex blade is much more overpowered, I didn't realize with just charisma they could use GWM or SS or just alternate between both.

I really liked the save bonus. The extra damage could've just been curtailed.

The weapon master is okay

[Foxhound438]

I still maintain that just getting free, resourceless extra damage dice is going to be too good, and would likely be centralizing in groups that play the optimization game. I mean, Mearls keeps complaining that hunter's mark has become so ubiquitous that it should have been a class feature, and that requires a spell slot, concentration, and bonus actions on multiple turns to get a bonus that doesn't scale with level.

[djreynolds]

I still maintain that just getting free, resourceless extra damage dice is going to be too good, and would likely be centralizing in groups that play the optimization game. I mean, Mearls keeps complaining that hunter's mark has become so ubiquitous that it should have been a class feature, and that requires a spell slot, concentration, and bonus actions on multiple turns to get a bonus that doesn't scale with level.

They should just give everyone a smite, seriously.

I actually think what they did with monster manual champion is a good idea, if you have half your health, you do extra damage

Critical hits are hard to come by, and this might have been the idea with brute to just give out some extra pop, some extra damage

I do like the weapon master, from what I saw on sage advice. I think this what players who play fighters want, the master of one weapon.

But yes "resourceless" damage can come off unfair, and I think that's what players want in total. They want to be able to grab an class and archetype and feel useful if not competitive with others at the table. Perhaps the Brute came off overpowered in the tests

[djreynolds]

Sorry for the double post

They could've just made the brute what players also wanted, an armored monk

Then the extra damage is really just monk damage

I was going to make a brute with tavern brawler, and shield master. Too bad

[Unoriginal]

They've been planning a different Subclass for unarmed Fighter.

[Corran]

I always thought that twf was not an attractive option for a fighter (I could be wrong and this is just my opinion, so please lets not derail this thread with that discussion). So maybe the weapon master fighter would offer things that might bring this fighting style on par with the other options for a fighter? I am not sure how something like that could be achieved, and it might be far from what the designing intent, but perhaps the weapon master might just be the fighter subclass you can choose if you really want a ''good'' twf fighter.

ps: Although by definition weapon master seems to be someone who specializes in one weapon, or at least weapon category, the mention of new fighting styles has me hoping for a fs that would allow my character to equip and unequip shields at the cost of sth less than an action. Cause I really like the idea of a dex based fighter that can easily change between bow and finesse weapon + shield. Though I don't hold high hopes for that (unless you know, there is a weapon master that specializes with shields?).

[Daphne]

However, the concept of a Fighter subclass getting additional damage dice isn't dead. Enter the Weapon Master, a subclass which, among other powers and perks, let you get said additional damage dice, but restricted to one of the groups of weapons at your disposal.

As somene who loved the Brute I'm happy it's not dead. The new flavor is even better.

[NiklasWB]

I reeeeeaaaaally hope that the Superior Fighting style doesn't get restricted to a single subclass. That sort of makes it impossible to create a warrior that is conceptually 'as good as he can possibly get' that isn't a Weapon Master. I feel like all Fighters should be able to be pinnacle weapon experts, because that is basically the only thing setting the Fighters apart from other martials.

I think they should make that a feat instead.

[KorvinStarmast]

As Mearls explains here (https://youtu.be/EeV5aZX1mqg) (around the 40 min mark), the backlash against the Brute was enough to kill it.

Which is sad, in my opinion. Mine too. I was really hoping to see that one sweeten up through play test and make the cut.

Weapons Specialization:
Oh lovely, let's redo what AD&D 1e Unearthed Arcana did. Or, maybe not?

[Theodoxus]

I honestly don't understand the desire. Through feats (I get they're optional, but are they?) you can get as specialized with a single weapon as you want. All fighters can be Weapon Masters, if that's the definition.

It appears to me, that the "problem" with all these fighter subclasses coming through UA, is the same as with the PHB Ranger and the various incarnations trying to improve it - Lack of cohesive definition.

I don't know if it's because the PF fighter was so well done, allowing nearly any specialization (or lack thereof to be a decent generalist) and folks are pining for that, or people want every single niche to be potentially covered...

As far as I can tell, the only 'niche' you can't do as a single classed fighter, is a holy champion except by grabbing Cleric Magic Initiate (which is so meh, I've never ever heard of anyone doing it).

A Champion, given its two fighting styles, can definitely specialize in a weapon and still be highly defensive (either with Defense or going Dueling and Protection for a shield master build).

I don't know what additional maneuvers you'd want on a Battlemaster... but they can easily specialize, gaining maneuvers that directly channel the power of their chosen weapon more than a Champion even gets.

So, what exactly are you looking for? More damage on every attack with decent accuracy? Let's just wish for a one handed weapon that's +5, deals d20s and explodes for 5d100 force damage while we're at it...:smallfurious:

[Vogie]

One idea that came to mind watching that was that the Weapon Master Fighter could be published along side a myriad of those Weapon Feats... then use those feats in a similar manner to warlock invocations as part of the class features. That would allow anyone to have, say, flail mastery, by using the optional feat rule. However, the Weapon Master specifically can have weapon mastery feats as part of their class, and they could swap their Blade Mastery with Flail Mastery if they pick up an amazing magic flail.

This is basically an inversion of the Martial Adept Mastery - Instead of a feat that gives a class feature, you have class features that allow you to gain feats.

[Astofel]

I'm honestly confused by the idea of a fighter subclass called the weapon master. I thought the fighter's whole shtick as a class was that they're a master of weapons. It's like having a rogue subclass called Sneaking Backstabber, or a druid subclass called the Nature Dude, or a barbarian subclass called the Battlerager.

[djreynolds]

I'm honestly confused by the idea of a fighter subclass called the weapon master. I thought the fighter's whole shtick as a class was that they're a master of weapons. It's like having a rogue subclass called Sneaking Backstabber, or a druid subclass called the Nature Dude, or a barbarian subclass called the Battlerager.

Very funny and insightful.

A fighter for the most part is doing all of their damage without magic, that's the selling point.

You are playing a master of tactics and weapons, you don't use magic, divinity, or pacts, or rage, or nature... just whit and steel

I've seen some of the weapon master stuff before, it looks okay

[Nifft]

Not necessarily.

Remember the weapon mastery feats? Yeah I expect something like that. Pick a sword for a sword bonus.

On the one hand, this is a neat idea.

On the other hand, I like the way the feats can augment many different classes -- I wouldn't like to see those nice things all given to the Fighter instead of being generic build options.

[Sigreid]

They should just give everyone a smite, seriously.

I actually think what they did with monster manual champion is a good idea, if you have half your health, you do extra damage

Critical hits are hard to come by, and this might have been the idea with brute to just give out some extra pop, some extra damage

I do like the weapon master, from what I saw on sage advice. I think this what players who play fighters want, the master of one weapon.

But yes "resourceless" damage can come off unfair, and I think that's what players want in total. They want to be able to grab an class and archetype and feel useful if not competitive with others at the table. Perhaps the Brute came off overpowered in the tests

When I play a fighter I'm looking specifically for an effective multi weapon platform. Not a 1 trick (weapon) pony.

[stoutstien]

if they had higher lv battle master maneuvers it would be a weapons master.

[djreynolds]

if they had higher lv battle master maneuvers it would be a weapons master.

And from what I've read on the weapon master, it's not maneuvers and superiority dice... but similar. In fact he mentioned about the new ranger idea and it was similar to the weapon master temp hp

I like what they did with PDK, it's just a little underpowered, but it was different from the other archetypes at least.

So is the Cavalier and samurai.

I really liked the brutish durability 7th ability. I just like feel as player that I have a chance.

[Misterwhisper]

And from what I've read on the weapon master, it's not maneuvers and superiority dice... but similar. In fact he mentioned about the new ranger idea and it was similar to the weapon master temp hp

I like what they did with PDK, it's just a little underpowered, but it was different from the other archetypes at least.

So is the Cavalier and samurai.

I really liked the brutish durability 7th ability. I just like feel as player that I have a chance.

It was the level 7 ability that I had a problem with. It was just too powerful.

The adding dice to damage I did not mind. It made sense.

[djreynolds]

It was the level 7 ability that I had a problem with. It was just too powerful.

The adding dice to damage I did not mind. It made sense.

I can agree with that, a possible +6 is huge. Would 1d4 be better?

When we play a fighter, IMO, we are looking at consistent damage. Where a paladin has spikes, a fighter is consistent.

I like brutish durability, because fighters have such weak saves in regards to int/wis/ chr... that they get taken so easily out of battles.

It allowed, at least one fighter archetype , to feel they could take on the more debilitating spells that come around at 5th level on and fight on.

Paladin, gets somethin at 6th and OoD and OoA, get another at 7th.
Gloom stalker get wisdom saves proficiency
Berserker get mindless rage
Monk can use an action

Sure samurai gets a wisdom save proficiency and could take charisma. But other fighters are dependent on others for save them.

I'm disputing, it is strong... Or was strong.

[Morty]

I agree that "master of weapons" is already a strong part of the fighter's identity, and there already exist feats that let any weapon user to specialize in a particular kind of weapon. It feels like they're just making another go at a simple but reliable high-damage fighter archetype.

[alchahest]

"master of weapons" isn't really a part of the fighter currently. fighter is "master of attacking really fast, sometimes even faster than that".

they get similar fighting styles to ranger and paladin, but don't get on tap damage in the same way, and don't have anything that keys off of opting to specialise in a specific weapon (at least nothing more than other classes can get)

[PhoenixPhyre]

"master of weapons" isn't really a part of the fighter currently. fighter is "master of attacking really fast, sometimes even faster than that".

they get similar fighting styles to ranger and paladin, but don't get on tap damage in the same way, and don't have anything that keys off of opting to specialise in a specific weapon (at least nothing more than other classes can get)

And with the reduced granularity of weapon proficiencies, they don't get to use more different types of weapons than others either. Which I'm not sad about--the more granular system was somewhat annoying.

Tying in a "weapon specialization" mechanic to (potentially overlapping) groups of weapons is I think the best way to pull the "master of weapons" idea. Give maybe an active ability unique to the weapon type and a passive ability that might be shared between types.

Grouping the weapons both helps with thematic-ness and prevents the "you found a +3 bastard sword but you're only specialized in longswords so it does you no good" issue found in 2e (especially).