Banishment on a Moving Boat

[Xrposiedon]

So we are playing a campaign where we are kind of....good pirates? We are somewhat of mercenaries, who spent our entire wealth on the biggest, baddest, fastest ship on the seas...taking over other ships in an evil world.


Could my sorcerer cast banishment on a person on an opposing moving ship, and then....have him fall into the ocean after he re-appears?

Or would you normally rule that the space he appears is on the boat when he returns.

(Yes I know Banishment requires something distasteful of the target) but lets assume I knew the target and had the component.

[Galithar]

First, like any material component without a listed cost, you don't need an item distasteful to them because a spell focus will replace it.

I personally would rule that it would reappear in the same space over the water, if and only if, we were tracking the position of the boats to know how far from a ship they are when they return. If the boats are just assumed to be there and moving, or we only have 'they're twenty feet away from each other' then I would likely have them return on the boat.

[kamap]

If I'd get to rule it the person would go sploosh in the water, depending on the length of the banishment and the speed the ship is going. Its a clever use of a spell but could be a tad OP though.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I'd generally default to dunking the banished creature in the sea; equally flying characters will have to take into account the relative movement of the boats if they take to the sky. It's more fun, and I feel like that's how magic would work if it was real.

If you're running an entire campaign at sea though, it might be better to shift your reference frame from the planet to the ship, since there are surely plenty of spells that don't work properly if you stick to the 'default' grid (glyph of warding comes to mind).

[Unoriginal]

If you cast Hold Person on someone who is on a moving ship, do they stand in the exact same point as what is on the ship the ship rams into them, or do they move with the ship?

[OvisCaedo]

If you cast Hold Person on someone who is on a moving ship, do they stand in the exact same point as what is on the ship the ship rams into them, or do they move with the ship?

With Hold Person, they'd move with the ship; despite the name SOUNDING like it would be gripping someone with magical force or something, it's really just a paralysis effect. 5e did away with all the tagging, but in 3.5 it was called out as mind affecting. I know older edition details aren't really relevant, but even in 5e it's enchantment school and only talks about the paralysis.

...Levitation, though, would probably get that person ditched very quickly. There's probably a lot of telekinetic type spells that'd bring the question up?

edit: though a paralyzed person on a moving ship would probably be very liable to falling over at GM discretion

[DeTess]

Personally, I'd rule that such effects on a ship or another large vehicle (like a train or whatever, but for example not a chariot) would work within the vehicle's reference frame (so the banished person would reappear on the ship). This means that anything putting an AoE with a duration(like hypnotic pattern or whatever) would also remain attached to the ship.

[Ritorix]

I would have them re-appear in the same square on the boat, citing the magical property conservation of planar positioning.

[Zanthy1]

Personally, I'd rule that such effects on a ship or another large vehicle (like a train or whatever, but for example not a chariot) would work within the vehicle's reference frame (so the banished person would reappear on the ship). This means that anything putting an AoE with a duration(like hypnotic pattern or whatever) would also remain attached to the ship.

I second this. Though the first time I used banishment I would argue that they'd fall into the water, but after the first time i'd allow it to be treating the ship's deck as the same space where they were standing pre-banishment.

As a DM, if one of my players come up with something like this, a loophole or whatever, I will almost always allow it the first time it comes up, but let them know it's a time time thing but in the future will work slightly differently.

[ImproperJustice]

Taking an extreme approach:

Assuming the target exists on a planet that rotates, does their position change in accordance with the rotational speed of that planet?


While I am generally all about rule of cool, it may be best to just have a target return to their position on whatever they may have been occupying before.

On the upswing, there is no shortage of push/pull mechanics in 5e.
Which conjures the image of a pirate themed four elements monk leaping over the side of a ship, water whipping some fool to their doom, before catching themselves on the ship and running back up on deck.

[Vogie]

I'd strongly suggest NOT using Psychlo-style teleportation mechanics.

If you're returning that creature to a single universal point in one minute, you would not only have to consider the rotation of the planet, but the speed the planet is moving through their galaxy.

If you did use that on Earth, for example, not only would you include the 1000-mph rotation of Earth, but also the 67,000-mph orbit around the sun. So after a single minute, the target would be displaced by 16(.666...) miles in one direction, X axis based on rotation and 1116(.666...) miles in another direction, on the Z axis based on orbit.

Of course if you're using the grittiest of gritty realism and already have an orrery created for your world's solar system, knock yourself out.

[darknite]

I'm not a fan of mixing physics and magic all that much in my games. Magic transcends physics and I hate it when table talk descends to what would be 'realistic' because it is a real immersion breaker. So in my game the target would reappear in the same relative space they had vacated, regardless of where that location had moved in the real world.

[ImproperJustice]

I'd strongly suggest NOT using Psychlo-style teleportation mechanics.

If you're returning that creature to a single universal point in one minute, you would not only have to consider the rotation of the planet, but the speed the planet is moving through their galaxy.

If you did use that on Earth, for example, not only would you include the 1000-mph rotation of Earth, but also the 67,000-mph orbit around the sun. So after a single minute, the target would be displaced by 16(.666...) miles in one direction, X axis based on rotation and 1116(.666...) miles in another direction, on the Z axis based on orbit.

Of course if you're using the grittiest of gritty realism and already have an orrery created for your world's solar system, knock yourself out.

Yeah! .....see, who wants that kind of....of...science all in their game man?
:)

Then you wanna really get messed up, start trying to account for all them wizards casting time stop all over the place.

[hymer]

I'd like to avoid anything that's likely to end with someone rematerializing inside a bulkhead (I'm taking 'occupied' to mean 'by a creature'). So I'd have them reappear in the same spot on the ship.

[stoutstien]

Is it going to be a table to table decision you have to make. Points of reference for movement will quickly break down if you think about too much.☺️
Sort of if you put a spell effect that can't move in the hull will it move with the ship or will it tear through the side of it using a outside point.
If you cast fog cloud using the deck as a point does it stay with the boat or does the ship sail out?
Then you think even larger. Is the world moving or spinning and will a banished target return in the same spot or the point in space it was banished?

[MadBear]

Personally, I'm not a fan of them being moved. The frame of reference point is the location of the object they were on at the time of the spell. It works generally, and is what I'd use. Like others have said, you don't take other real physics factors into account, so doing so just for this seems a bit silly.

That said, I'm sure mine could lead to wonky rules interpretations as well, since things that mess with reality tend to make strange rules interactions.

[Trampaige]

I'd strongly suggest NOT using Psychlo-style teleportation mechanics.

If you're returning that creature to a single universal point in one minute, you would not only have to consider the rotation of the planet, but the speed the planet is moving through their galaxy.



Devil's Advocate: The planet doesn't move, the sun does. Gravity is a planar attribute on the Prime Material.

[stoutstien]

Devil's Advocate: The planet doesn't move, the sun does. Gravity is a planar attribute on the Prime Material.

We bring in astrophysics and suddenly magic in dnd start making sense

[Kane0]

I wouldn't rely on it working, your DM could rule either way.

And to your DM, I would recommend whichever seems more appropriate for the game they are trying to run. If you're playing it for laughs then having the banishee(s) pop back into thin air and falling into the water is fine. For a more tense or dramatic feel having the creature(s) reappear right on deck again after the party manages to get a breather might just be what is called for.

[Laserlight]

I'd rule it as "THIS TIME, the Banished creature reappears at X."
Which would usually be on the ship, but I'm leaving my options open.

[NaughtyTiger]

Assuming the target exists on a planet that rotates, does their position change in accordance with the rotational speed of that planet?

Blasphemy! The Celestial bodies rotate about Faerun, the pearl of the universe fixed at her center.

[Vogie]

Devil's Advocate: The planet doesn't move, the sun does. Gravity is a planar attribute on the Prime Material.

It's turtles all the way down

[Ninja_Prawn]

It's tortles all the way down

Fixed that for you :smalltongue:

[Ganymede]

Ask your DM.

I'd note a creatures location relative to where I would place the battle mat; in this case, the boat deck is the battle mat.

If it were a little canoe, my answer would be different.

[Lunali]

The most important part is to be consistent, if banishment drops someone off the edge of the ship, other effects should also move relative to the ship. This would include people flying, spiritual weapon, and a wide variety of ofther spells.

[JackPhoenix]

Fixed that for you :smalltongue:

But you can't stack tortles, it must be Ravnican centaurs.