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Rowanomicon
2007-09-20, 08:21 PM
I want to play a character that takes the PrC War Hulk which can be found by scrolling down on this page:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a

I want to play him as unarmed and un(or minimally)armored.

I'm currently Homebrewing a race for the character: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57437
This means two things:
1) I wont know the exact racial traits until that's done
2) Anything necessary for this build that can't (or is hard to) be gained through classes can be made a racial trait. Keep in mind I want the race to come out as LA+2.

ECL is 10 (with LA buy off possible) In other words LA+2 wont count against my ECL.

Naturally when I think unarmed and unarmored I think Monk, but I'm not 100% sure.

Opinions?

Kaelik
2007-09-20, 08:39 PM
Superior Unarmed Strike Feat.

Dwarf? Con bonus? Try Fist of the Forest and/or Deepwarden? Assuming you can hit either one before going into Warhulk. Barbarian with Superior unarmed strike at level 3. Maybe grab a level of Monk anyway for improved and a improved grapple.

Machete
2007-09-20, 08:48 PM
Half Ogre from Miniatures Handbook is great with unarmed strike(srd) and superior unarmed strike(tome of battle) feats and you might want to look into Gharyns Monastic Array which would let your unarmed damage be used as the damage of a kama(exotic wep. sigh). Although there are magic enhancements that you can add to the weapon that would more than make up for not being a monk.

Throw on the that the Feral Creature Template from Savage Species (yeah, it is cheese) and you have got something fierce and very warkhulkish.

Can't guarantee your DM will allow it though.

Kaelik
2007-09-20, 09:09 PM
Actually, if you really want to go bad. Feral Anthropomorphic Elephant (Africian). Then you go ahead and grab one extra racial HD to get pounce/better fast heling. Then you grab one level of Fighter for the BAB and Feat. Then go Warhulk.

DM: You come to a Heavy Steel Door, the Dwarves have barred it from behind.
Party: What do we do?
You: I barrel at the Door, slamming into it with all my might.
DM: Okay, DC 35 Break.
You: I make that on a 3. *rolls*

Person_Man
2007-09-20, 09:20 PM
There are a wide variety of non-home brew races that qualify pretty easily for the class, if you're interested.

The best non-gestalt entry into War Hulk is Cleric. Cleric gives you access to Divine Power (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsDtoE.html#divine-power), which sets your BAB at your character level. Anyone with enough UMD can do it as well, assuming your DM allows custom wands. You may also want 1 level of Monk, so that your unarmed strikes count as natural weapons.

As far as feats go, you have a lot of good options. If you took one level of Monk, then you can take Improved Natural Attack (http://www.d20db.com/Improved_Natural_Attack) to increase your unarmed damage by one category. A monk's belt will increase your effective Monk level by 5. Superior Unarmed Strike from the Tome of Battle will increase it by another 4.

You should also consider Improved Grapple + Scorpion's Grasp from Sandstorm. It allows you to initiate a free Grapple when you hit your enemy. This is a natural combo for you, because you automatically deal unarmed damage when you succeed on a grapple check, essentially doubling your damage output. You can then finish your iterative attacks against your grappled foe, or drop him or someone else and then hit (and make another free grapple against him) again.

Alternatively, you could take Knockback from Races of Stone, and get a free Bull Rush whenever you hit an enemy, and you don't have to follow your enemies (you just knock them back). Your damage output will be lower, but your enemies will have a really hard time getting near you to attack. If you do this, then you definitely need Shock Trooper as well, since the directed Bull Rush lets you steer enemies one square left or right for each square you push them back. Shock Trooper will also help you out with Power Attack.

Rowanomicon
2007-09-20, 09:29 PM
Haha, yeah, I'll go with that.
Thanks for the help!
[/thread]

Heh, well I looked at the Deepwarden class (online). It looks like a cool class, and I especially like the Stone Warden ability (Con bonus to AC instead of Dex bonus).

I would be able to take War Hulk and Deeowarden at the same level so I'm not sure if I should use up 2 levels for Deepwarden, but that Con to AC is awfully tempting.

I couldn't look at anything else though as I don't have any books with me and I didn't know where to find them online.
If you can link to something (or I already know where to find it) I can use it I can use it, otherwise I can't.

My quickest way into those PrCs is with 5 levels of a class with full BAB. I think I want to do that (which cuts Monk out of the equation unless it's really necessary). Barbarian would be cool; Fighter supplies valuable feats; Ranger has nice skill points.

PS: I edited the OP too.

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-20, 10:42 PM
Elephant's no good. Go with the Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale. 3RHD, 0LA, and Large size. Fancy stat mods too. Warhulk really screams for Spiked-Chain or Reach+Unarmed cheesy goodness though, if you're really gonna go all the way to 10(not normally recommended pre-epic, as 4, when you get Mighty Swing, is about the breakpoint, and coincidentally, the level at which you can still hit 16 BAB before Epic), since you basically make an Improved Whirlwind Attack(attack all you threaten as long as you have Line of Effect. Knocking down enemies closest to you first should ensure you have Line of Effect to everyone else. If not, argue that with your height, there is Line of Effect to everyone depending on which cube of your volume you draw from) with each attack.

Quietus
2007-09-20, 10:55 PM
What's the LA on Feral, +1?

Feral goliath. Slap a permanent Enlarge on it. I don't have access to the stas for either, but from what I know of the two, that sounds like it'd be a good call... anyone want to tell me where I'm wrong?

RTGoodman
2007-09-20, 11:01 PM
Elephant's no good. Go with the Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale. 3RHD, 0LA, and Large size. Fancy stat mods too.

I can't seem to find the PDF that was online at some point that had all the Anthropomorphic creatures (I think it was in a Sage Advice thingy on the Wizards main page), but doesn't an Anthro Baleen Whale get some crazy bonus to Wisdom? Like a +8 or something? Because that, plus the Str bonus and size, could make for a good Monk/Fighter (for BAB)/War Hulk build.

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-20, 11:17 PM
+8 Strength
+4 Dexterity
+4 Constitution
+4 Wisdom

No ability penalties. 9 Natural Armour. Large, complete with all the benefits and penalties. I like to imagine they look like the Zillas from the Monster Rancher series.:smallbiggrin:

If you're feeling Lawful, pick Half-Dragon(LA+3, +4 NA) with some combination of the following templates:

Mineral Warrior(LA+1, +3 NA)
Woodling(LA+3, +7 NA)

Hidecarved Dragon is crazy.:smallbiggrin:

http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-453800

Before you ask, yes you can be Lawful and still rage. Pick Ordered Chaos(Fiendish Codex I:Hordes of the Abyss).

Rowanomicon
2007-09-20, 11:45 PM
OK, as much as I like dairy products can we turn this thread back from a cheese feast into building my character. Power is good, but I don't need ridiculousness.

Also please note once more that I am restricted to material that can be found for free online.

One thing I am looking for is increasing my Strength as much as possible. I don't really want to sacrifice class levels though. My homebrew race will be LA+2 which can be taken off by ECL 10. I may be willing to take one 1 more LA or a couple racial HD if I must, but I'd rather not.

Person_Man
2007-09-21, 09:46 AM
OK, as much as I like dairy products can we turn this thread back from a cheese feast into building my character. Power is good, but I don't need ridiculousness.

Also please note once more that I am restricted to material that can be found for free online.

One thing I am looking for is increasing my Strength as much as possible. I don't really want to sacrifice class levels though. My homebrew race will be LA+2 which can be taken off by ECL 10. I may be willing to take one 1 more LA or a couple racial HD if I must, but I'd rather not.

Half Giants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm) and Goliaths (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040711b&page=5) are both +1 LA races. They have the Powerful Build ability, which allows them to qualify as a large race.

Minotaur (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030202) become large at the 6th level of their racial class.

Entomanothropes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a) are vermin Lycanthropes. They have +2 LA + vermin hit dice. The nice thing is vermin tend to have fewer hit then most animals. I suggest being a Entomanothrope Sword Spider (Monsters of Faerun), Giant Spider (remorsense), or Giant Wasp (wings). All of them are Large size when in hybrid or animal form.

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-21, 10:20 AM
Half-Ogre is Large for LA+2 with no RHD. LA+1 if you use the Savage Species one instead of the Races of Destiny one.

Person_Man
2007-09-21, 12:08 PM
Half-Ogre is Large for LA+2 with no RHD. LA+1 if you use the Savage Species one instead of the Races of Destiny one.

Savage Species is 3.0. Races of Destiny is the 3.5 update.

Poerts
2007-09-21, 12:14 PM
Did somebody say War Hulk?


http://www.geocities.com/jonhulkholt/reviews/images/wwhulk1.big.jpg

edit: woops, he's armed...

Draz74
2007-09-21, 12:15 PM
Half Giants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm) and Goliaths (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040711b&page=5) are both +1 LA races. They have the Powerful Build ability, which allows them to qualify as a large race.

Guh??? :smallconfused: :smallconfused:

Where in Powerful Build's description does it say they qualify as a Large race?

Kaelik
2007-09-21, 12:23 PM
Guh??? :smallconfused: :smallconfused:

Where in Powerful Build's description does it say they qualify as a Large race?

It says they are treated as a large race for many types of effects. It would be up to the DM if that included Warhulk size pre-req. Personally, I would allow it as long as they weren't intending on Divine Power cheeseing too often.

Draz74
2007-09-21, 12:45 PM
Yes, they "function in many ways as if they were one size category larger." And the rest of the Powerful Build description is a list of which ways those are. "Qualifying for feat or PrC prerequisites" is not one of the "many ways" which is listed.

I guess it's not explicitly forbidden like a reach increase is, but it still seems obvious to me that this is one of the limits of Powerful Build.

Rowanomicon
2007-09-21, 12:48 PM
Nice pic Poerts.

I already have a race picked out for the character (my homebrewed race).

I don't really want the character to be too monstrous, or any kind of were-creature.

So whats my best idea as far as getting to War Hulk as fast as possible AND being an effective unarmed combatant?

Monk is certainly good for unarmed.unarmored combat. It would take me 7 levels of straight Monk before I could start taking levels in War Hulk.

Ranger, Paladin, Barbarian and Fighter are both options too and either of them would get me to War Hulk in 5 levels in terms of BAB.

In terms of Feats I need: Power Attack, Cleave, and Improved Unarmed Strike

So if I'm sticking with core only base classes before I go into War Hulk I need at least 1 level of Fighter. I'll need more levels of Fighter if I'll need more feats. At ECL 10 I'll have (as long as my race is LA+2 or less) 5 Feats if I have 1 level of fighter, 6 Feats if I have 2 level of fighter, or 7 feats if I have 4 levels of fighter.

So what other feats should I be looking at here?

I'll be taking at least 1 level of another full BAB class (since Fighter Level 5 grants nothing but another point of BAB), and maybe 3 or 4 levels of that class.
I'm looking at Barbarian and Ranger. They both offer good things. Which is better and works better with this build?

Person_Man
2007-09-21, 12:54 PM
Guh??? :smallconfused: :smallconfused:

Where in Powerful Build's description does it say they qualify as a Large race?

In Races of Stone, Knockback, Fling Enemy, Rock Hurling, Improved Rock Hurling, Rampaging Bull Rush, and similar feats all make it clear that a Goliath qualifies as a Large race. For example, here's the Prerequisite from Knockback:


Prerequisite: Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, size Large or larger (goliaths qualify by virtue of their powerful build racial trait).

I've also specifically asked Cust Serv the question about a Goliath qualifying for Hulking Hurler and War Hulk, and they've said yes. (Though Cust Serv is known for questionable rulings, and for reversing itself).


It's been debated on the board before as well, with good arguments on both sides. By strict RAW of the Powerful Build trait, its not allowed. In fact, the text of the Powerful Build description doesn't even mention being able to qualify for feats that require Large size. (Though mysteriously it does later in the same book). So it seems to be RAI that Powerful Build allows you to qualify for things that require Large size. But obviously, its a DM call.

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-21, 01:17 PM
Actually, given how it's specifically mentioned each time in the Feats themselves, it's probably up to DM fiat to decide whether the Powerful Build qualifies for the Feats.

goat
2007-09-21, 01:19 PM
I thought current build preference for an unarmed combatant was ToB born, but as you're working only from core...

For minimally armoured, barbarian would get you an improved movement speed, and you should never be heavily loaded anyway.

The rage will make you even more powerful in combat when you need it, especially with the large constitution modifier you'll be packing. It could certainly help in a drawn out BBEG encounter.

An aside -
If you go Totem Barbarian, Ape Totem would lose you the speed, but you'd gain a climb speed and free power attack at level 3, reducing your need for fighter levels.

Rowanomicon
2007-09-21, 05:28 PM
I don't own ToB, nor do I have any of the books I do own with me, nor have I ever laid my hands or eyes on a copy of ToB.

5 levels of Ape Totem Barbarian would certainly suffice to get me into War Hulk.
I suppose it's all just a matter of taste, and I suppose Ape Totem Barbarian suits me just fine. Should I use the Whirling Frenzy Rage Variant?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy

Also What other Feats should I choose? I believe I'd get 2 from level 6 and 9.
Should I get Two Weapon Fighting for an extra attack (though it would make all my attacks at -2)?
How about Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)?

Can you make a two handed unarmed strike (to better use Power Attack)?

I do need some armor so I think I'll go with a chain shirt.
I think I'll also take the Dodge feat to give me a little more AC (should I?)

The campaign is 32 point buy.
I figure I'll put Strength to 18, Dex to 14, Int to 12, and the rest at 10 (before bonuses and penalties).
Good choice?
I'll get 2 Ability boosts from levels 4 and 8. I'll need to put one into Dex if I want to take Dodge as a feat, otherwise I'm boosting Strength as much as possible.

Rowanomicon
2007-09-22, 05:38 PM
I know bumping is immoral, but I'm starting the character sheet now and I'd like some questions answered (see my last post):
Specifically about whether or not to use Whirling Frenzy instead of Rage and What Feats to take (and if I should use an ability point to up my Dex to take Dodge).

Here's my character sheet so far; it needs a few more thing (such as 2 more feats and 2 more ability points):
http://www.campaign-blog.com/view.php?id=5887

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-23, 12:13 AM
I know bumping is immoral, but I'm starting the character sheet now and I'd like some questions answered (see my last post):
Specifically about whether or not to use Whirling Frenzy instead of Rage and What Feats to take (and if I should use an ability point to up my Dex to take Dodge).

Here's my character sheet so far; it needs a few more thing (such as 2 more feats and 2 more ability points):
http://www.campaign-blog.com/view.php?id=5887

You can probably combine Whirling Frenzy and Lion Totem Barbarian(Complete Champion one, not the Variant in the SRD/UA). Pounce+1 extra attack per round synergises really well. Pounce replaces Fast Movement(but you can always easily dip one of those other PrCs out there that grants it at level 1). Whirling Frenzy replaces Rage. The only danger here is that you cannot use Whirling Frenzy with something resembling Rage(Berserk, FB's Frenzy, etc.), so you won't be stacking Strength Bonus from mulltiple different Rages anytime soon.

Rowanomicon
2007-09-23, 12:23 AM
I'm using the Ape Totem barbarian variant as found on the SRD because it grants me Power Attack (letting me into War Hulk after 5 levels without any levels of Fighter).

By the way I'd like to use my Climb Speed and Climb and JUmp Skills to my advantage in combat (ie. jumping on enemies' heads). Anyone know of Feats, Combat Action, or anything that would allow me to do so?

I think Whirling Frenzy synergises with the War Hulk's Mighty Swing.

Perhaps it would even be in my best interest to grab another level of something with full BAB progression to gain another attack.

I don't have the Dex for TWF. Maybe in later levels after some magical enhancement

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-23, 01:14 AM
Would need to see your planned progression(spoiler block if you break it down by levels chosen at each ECL), but if you can squeeze in Ranger2, you get TWF without the DEX requirement(not recommended, not because of the restrictions, but because it's only +1 extra attack, whereas with the Spiked Chain, you get to hit everyone in range), in addition to the Full BAB.

Leap Attack on a Pouncy Charge would work. Leap Attack on its own with a single Massive Swing would also totally obliterate a hemisphere in front of you.

Knockback(Races of Stone) is the obvious choice, to send them all sprawling like pins from the bowling ball(you).
Shock Trooper lets you shift the AB penalty to AC(may or may not be recommended), but more importantly, lets you cluster your opponents into each others' squares(knocking them all prone), ensuring they provoke more AoOs as they get up. On your turn, you sprawl them all again, and repeat.
Battle Jump(Unapproachable East? It's a Taer Regional Feat there, but crunchwise, no real reason it couldn't be General) gives a small bonus if you can hit 10 feet elevation on your jump.
Combat Brute is the other obvious choice, but between it and Shock Trooper, you'll be rather starved for Feats without at least Fighter 4.

Your main aim should be to keep everyone within your "Circle of Death" prone on your turn(if you have to, work with the party to delay Initiative such that they all go after you, unless they're ranged attackers, in which case, they go right after whoever they want to shoot, or just before you).

Iku Rex
2007-09-23, 01:51 AM
I've also specifically asked Cust Serv the question about a Goliath qualifying for Hulking Hurler and War Hulk, and they've said yes. (Though Cust Serv is known for questionable rulings, and for reversing itself).From the official FAQ:


Does the powerful build racial trait allow a character to
take advantage of feats for size Large or larger creatures,
such as Awesome Blow? Would a half-dragon goliath
qualify as Large for determining whether it has wings?

No and no. The powerful build racial trait (found in the
goliath entry in Races of Stone and the half-giant entry in
Expanded Psionics Handbook) spells out exactly when the
character is treated as one size larger than normal:
1. Whenever subjected to a size modifier or special size
modifier for an opposed check. This includes grapple checks,
bull rush attempts, and trip attempts.
2. When determining whether a creature’s special attacks
based on size can affect him. This includes improved grab and
swallow whole.
3. When determining what size of weapons the character
can use.
That’s it. The character isn’t treated as one size larger when
determining space, reach, Hide check penalty, or for the
purpose of qualifying for anything that requires size.
Some feats, prestige classes, or other game elements may
specifically allow a Medium character with powerful build to
qualify as if he were Large. Such examples are specific and
intentional exceptions to the normal rule.

Person_Man
2007-09-23, 09:43 AM
From the official FAQ:

Well then, I guess that's resolved. Thanks for finding the correct citation Iku.

Rowanomicon
2007-09-23, 01:33 PM
Two levels of Ranger would actually fit the flavour of the character well.

Right now the character used 5 levels of Ape Totem Barbarian, but that could be changed.

I don't have access to any book right now so I'm working off the SRD and other free linkable material.
I might be able to find some of the feats you mentioned on crystal keep (they don't always provide all information on a given feat, eg. Vow of Poverty).

I can change my first 5 levels to 2Fighter/2Ranger/1Barbarian (any totem on the SRD), 2Fighter/3Ranger, or anything else that gives +5 BAB depending on what feats and such I need.