How do you make better champions?

[Mighty Cal]

Hi I am new to the forums but I was a lurker for a while, glad to be here now.

I was wondering how to optimize champions, they come out kind of weak when I make them. I like playing figthers but the champion never does as much as I want it to. BTW my current champion is 2nd level and a halforc.

[nickl_2000]

Are you looking for combat optimization or one of the other tiers of play?

[Mighty Cal]

Combat mostly, I mean what are fighters for? It's in the name.

[Exocist]

Combat Optimisation: Same as any other fighter - Polearm Master + Great Weapon Master or Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter

The real combat optimisation: Take a different Fighter subclass. If you're looking for simplicity, the Brute (UA) is practically the "fix" for the champion. The best non-UA fighter subclass is probably the battlemaster.

Out of Combat optimisation: Find a DM who allows you to do things that aren't directly correlated to a d20 roll of a skill. Or find a DM who sets achievable DCs for things you want to do.

[KorvinStarmast]

Hi I am new to the forums but I was a lurker for a while, glad to be here now.

I was wondering how to optimize champions, they come out kind of weak when I make them. I like playing figthers but the champion never does as much as I want it to. BTW my current champion is 2nd level and a halforc.
My Half Orc Champion is level 14 at the moment. What are you trying to achieve, and what background/skill proficiencies, do you have?
I went shield master before the nerf that Crawford announced a while back.
For my own reasons, I didn't neglect dexterity as a stat; so I have the medium armor master feat which, once I finally got to level 12 and got Dexterity to 16, not only allowed me to be a little sneaky (I have stealth as a skill proficiency) and help the rogue on scouting, but also it's handy if I need to use a long bow for ranged attack.
Does that optimize for melee damage? No. I am a multipurpose fighter, and the Shield Master defensive feature is really sweet. Make a save and get no damage on dex save attacks, miss the save and get half damage.
We fought a pack of hell hounds with their fire breath; I was virtually unscathed as I tore into them.

For early levels: a lot of folks will suggest a sentinal or GWM or PAM feat. The nice thing about GWM is that as your crit chances increase at level 3, and then at 15 much later in the game, the GWM bonus for hitting with a crit comes into play for some nice damage spikes.

There's a guide around here somewhere for fighters; have a look at it.

[Mighty Cal]

My Half Orc Champion is level 14 at the moment. What are you trying to achieve, and what background/skill proficiencies, do you have?
I went shield master before the nerf that Crawford announced a while back.
For my own reasons, I didn't neglect dexterity as a stat; so I have the medium armor master feat which, once I finally got to level 12 and got Dexterity to 16, not only allowed me to be a little sneaky (I have stealth as a skill proficiency) and help the rogue on scouting, but also it's handy if I need to use a long bow for ranged attack.
Does that optimize for melee damage? No. I am a multipurpose fighter, and the Shield Master defensive feature is really sweet. Make a save and get no damage on dex save attacks, miss the save and get half damage.
We fought a pack of hell hounds with their fire breath; I was virtually unscathed as I tore into them.

For early levels: a lot of folks will suggest a sentinal or GWM or PAM feat. The nice thing about GWM is that as your crit chances increase at level 3, and then at 15 much later in the game, the GWM bonus for hitting with a crit comes into play for some nice damage spikes.

There's a guide around here somewhere for fighters; have a look at it.

I dont have any feats now i just have a 16 in strength and dexterity. I will look at the guid though thanks.

[KorvinStarmast]

I dont have any feats now i just have a 16 in strength and dexterity. I will look at the guid though thanks.Indeed. The first feat will come at level 4 for a Half Orc.
My first fighting style was Dueling, because I decided to go Sword and Board. This was due to how our party was made up at the time. We didn't have a primary melee person to begin with. (We now have me and a barbarian as the front line). Handy, that is.

If you want to try to optimize for damage, taking the Great Weapon Fighting style, and then either PAM or GWM, you can do some pretty decent damage when you hit. One of the things I like about half orc is the additional die on a crit. You'll be critting a little more often once you hit level 3.

[Unoriginal]

If you want to optimize, here's a tip: having 16 in both DEX and STR is not useful from an optimizer's POV.

You only need one of those for attack, damage and AC.

[nickl_2000]

From a combat perspective one of the most powerful things that a Champion gets is it improved critical, so if you are looking to increase damage you need to seek out advantage. If you are a sword and board having shield master will make a huge difference. That gives you advantage a lot of times and can make you more likely to crit.

Other options to increase you damage include Magic Initiate Warlock to pick up Hex as a level one spell and a few utility cantrips (getting and extra 1d8 per attack when you can attack up to 4 times is pretty killer). As well as GWM and PAM.

[Bloodcloud]

I think the most optimized champion is half orc greatweapon master. Should have switched that 16 dex to con, but then at least you get a decent ranged attack, which aint all that bad.

There's not much optimizing at level 2 though.

[Angelalex242]

The best thing you can do with Champions is dual wield 9 lives stealers, which go off on every crit...and unlike vorpal swords, don't force you to roll 20s.

[ImproperJustice]

Getting a weapon that lets you roll additional damage dice when you deliver a critical is also ummm critical?

Something like a Flametongue for instance.

Our resident Dwarven Champion managed to get his hands on a Dwarven Thrower. He later picked up archery as his second fighting style and sharpshooter. He does have shield master as well, so he will shove people out of melee into range (We think JC is wrong about shield master),
And then pummel the enemy with hammer throws.

When he crits, there is a lot of dice rolled, especially up against Giants, and more so when blessed by his buddy the Forge Cleric (yours truly), with Holy Weapon.

The end result is a solid combatant effective at melee and range, who can take an enormous beating (has a ton of HP and AC), and can go for extreme periods without rest reliance.

[CTurbo]

Champions are extremely strong in combat. Their main problem is not be good at anything else.

As mentioned above, GWM or PAM Champions are great as well as the switch hitting Dex Champion

[darknite]

I multiclassed a Paladin a bit with Champion and Barbarian levels to get Improved Critical (Crits on 19-20), Action Surge and Reckless Attack (Adv on Attacks, so 2 x the change to Crit) to be a Smiting Machine...

[Crgaston]

If you're not a TWF'er, once you get your 2nd attack, dip 2 levels of Rogue for a skill, Cunning Action and Expertise. This opens up a bunch of options for your action economy and utility.

Really, we need to know more details to provide you with good options. What's your Fighting style? The rest of your stats? Do you want to focus on melee, ranged, or stay a very capable switch hitter?

[Wildarm]

Main appeal of champion is the expanding crit range IMO. Take advantage of that with an Elven Accuracy crit fisher build. Main thing is to find some consistent source of advantage so you can be rolling 3 times for every hit and end up with a ~25% crit chance.

One fun build is Champion Fighter Double Bladed Scimitar Wood Elf(Valenar) - By Level 8 you can have Elven Accuracy, Revenant Blade and 20 Dex. Light/Medium armor with defensive fighting and the +1AC from RB you should still have a competitive AC(19+) for wading into Melee. Ask for damage buffs from your spellcasting pals and become a whirlwind of blades.

[Morollan]

Hi I am new to the forums but I was a lurker for a while, glad to be here now.

I was wondering how to optimize champions, they come out kind of weak when I make them. I like playing figthers but the champion never does as much as I want it to. BTW my current champion is 2nd level and a halforc.

My main tip would be not to be me! I played a 1/2 Orc Champion to 6th level building him around the increased crit chance and savage attacks. Did. Not. Crit. Once. :smallfurious:

[Vogie]

Champions are as powerful as you make them. You want to Crit-Fish with TWF? You can! Snipe targets from afar? Yep! Cleave through the front lines? Just say the word. Hide behind a shield after facechecking a dragon? Yep!

They're pretty straightforward, and all of your ASIs you can easily choose between Feats or ASIs depending if you want more utility.

After level 5 or 6, you may be interested in multiclassing, although it isn't necessary. If you have the appropriate stats, some things to think of:

2 levels in War Wizard for ritual casting, cantrips, Int to Initiative and a mini-shield
1 level in Death Cleric to have an self-twinning ranged damage cantrips
1 level in Grave Cleric to help keep your party alive effortlessly
2 levels in Order Cleric to give you a warlord feel
1-2 levels in War Cleric for even more attacks, Divine Favor, and (if you have a sharpshooter/GWM build) the ability to all but guarantee a hit.
2 levels in Rogue for sneak attack damage, expertise and cunning actions (only if you're using a ranged or finesse weapon, otherwise skip!)
1 level in Barbarian to reduce incoming damage and a small damage bump (only if you're using strength-based melee weapons, otherwise skip!)
1 level in Shadow Sorcerer for darkvision, cantrips, and being even harder to kill

[strangebloke]

I will say that your build so far is totally fine, although getting a 16 in both DEX and STR is not at all optimal.

Still, lets work through this. What fighting style did you pick at level 1? Which skills did you pick? I ask because there are three major paths for a champion:

big guy with a huge weapon.
sneaky guy with a bow, rapier, and shield.
Athletics monster who knocks people over with his shield and/or grapples them.


Big Guy with a Huge Weapon
Role: You beat things to death with a huge metal slab.

Pick this if: You want to deal crazy damage. It helps if you've already taken the Great Weapon Fighting Style or the Defense Fighting Style, but that isn't required.

Build: At fourth level, take great weapon master. After that... you can max STR or pick up polearm master for a bit more damage. Either method works, but TBH I prefer just sticking with a greatsword and maxing STR. You'll already be getting bonus action attacks on a lot of rounds, so you won't miss it too much. I am also not a fan of building a 'polearms only' character since that tends to pigeonhole you in terms of loot. The two best fighting styles for you are Great Weapon Fighting and Defense fighting.

Sneaky Guy with Bow, Rapier, and Shield
Role: You destroy things from range, you scout, and you action surge on your surprise round for crazy damage.

Pick this if: You want to deal crazy damage and you've already taken the archery fighting style and you have stealth proficiency.

Build: There are two feats that are good for you here. Sharpshooter (Lets you straight up murder things from range) and Prodigy (Makes you a master of stealth). If your DM understands the hiding rules, you might want skulker instead of prodigy. Ultimately, whether you take both these feats or neither depends strictly on what you want to do. If you take sharpshooter, though, do take the archery fighting style. Defense is a solid choice for a second fighting style, as is dueling. (for when the monsters get in close)

ATHLETICS
Role: You enable the other melee characters in your party to to kill things. Warlord? Knock him over and let your buddy get advantage. Lich? Get the cleric to cast silence on you and grapple him. He can't cast in silence and he can't outgrapple you.

Take this if: You want to do other things on your turn than attack. Athletics proficiency and the dueling style are good here.

Build: Ask your DM about Shield Master. If your DM lets you use the shield bash before you attack, take this feat ASAP. If he doesn't... well, just be sure that you have a buddy in melee who can take advantage of the prone enemy. Prodigy is a good feat once again, although this time you'll want to take it for athletics. DO NOT take the grappler feat. Defense is generally better than Protection style for a second fighting style.

Final Remarks
GET MAGIC WEAPONS: Magic items are 'optional' in DND, but fighters, particularly champions, fall behind without magic weapons. If you're using a greatsword, the '+X' weapons are really great. For all builds, weapons that grant extra attack dice (like a flametongue) are super great because their damage gets doubled on a critical.

Fighter Flexibility: You'll be pretty good at fighting regardless of what feats you take, and you have a lot of feats. So don't be afraid to grab ritual caster or inspiring leader or magic initiate just for fun. If your DM runs a lot of exploration/puzzle/social encounters you'll be happy to have a little flexibility. Also, remember to have multiple sets of weapons on you just in case. A shield in case you just need to survive for a bit, a longbow just in case you need to shoot something at range, and of course a main weapon and a backup weapon.

Medium Armor Master: It's not a terrible feat for you specifically, but its still not worth it. Get mithral half-plate if you want to be sneaky.

Shields and Armor: In the long run, if you're using a shield you'll want both '+X' armor and a '+X' shield. This will allow you to keep your AC competitive even as monsters get bigger and more accurate. An animated shield is a great pickup if you can get it, since you can use it with a bow or great weapon.

Multiclassing: Champion works with everything! Rogue, Barbarian, Wizard (Abjuration, War, Bladesinger), Druid., ranger, Paladin... they're all solid. Just don't multiclass until after 5th level, and if you do, don't then take more than four levels in another martial class. Extra Attack doesn't stack.

[Specter]

For Improved Critical, what you want is more damage dice to double on your crits, so find a weapon like Flaming Tongue or multiclass ranger/war cleric/warlock.

[jas61292]

I know a number of people have said that having high Str and Dex is suboptimal, and in a strict "damage numbers on a spreadsheet" way, this is true.

But I personally think that in actual play, this is the best kind of champion. Especially if you want to use big weapons. Getting half proficiency to all physical skills at level 6 is so much better if that actually makes them all good rather than simply making them not awful. To go along with this, I really like Medium Armor Master on a Champion, as it is one of the few builds (and by far the simplest) that can easily excel at stealth while utilizing a big ol' maul or axe.

Furthermore, a second fighting style at 10 lets you take some more advantage of your two good ability scores. Sure you could just pick up Defense, which is perfectly fine, but having both GWF and Archery lets you be very threatening in all circumstances.

To me, this is the strength of the champion. If I just wanted to focus on one thing for damage, I'd go some other archetype. But what a champion is is a master of all things physical, and so I would never sacrifice any kind of physical ability on one, even if it is more optimal in a white room type scenario.

[Rhedyn]

Hi I am new to the forums but I was a lurker for a while, glad to be here now.

I was wondering how to optimize champions, they come out kind of weak when I make them. I like playing figthers but the champion never does as much as I want it to. BTW my current champion is 2nd level and a halforc.
Simple optimization -
Variant Human race and grab the Great Weapon Fighter feat.
Attribute Priority: Str > Con > other

And you are good.

[djreynolds]

I dont have any feats now i just have a 16 in strength and dexterity. I will look at the guid though thanks.

With a 16 in each, though not "optimized" with archery style that 16 in dex is equal to a 20

Now I know many stress maxing out your stat, such attack or casting stat. But with a 16 in each, and assuming you took archery style, just grab feats

Grab a feat for every occasion, grab PAM, GWM, Sentinel by 8th level... why not? You're bound to come across gauntlets of ogre power

I would just grab feats, toss in lucky and resilient con

[LudicSavant]

In a campaign where enemies are any more tactical than "we walk up to the nearest PC and cast melee attack until one side falls over" any melee-based Champion has to contend with the fact that they're barely mobile. They can walk 30 feet and attack and that's basically it. Anything even resembling mobility bonuses, CC, or taking advantage of terrain can deny them melee turns. Losing turns is bad. The amount of DPR advantage you'd need to gain in order to make up for this happening for even one round is huge.

It's because of this and some other factors (like the value of winning initiative) that the best single-classed Champions may well be Sharpshooters. Focusing on Dex also opens up Elven Accuracy, which synergizes very nicely indeed with your expanded crit range. And the Archery style generally does more to help you than the GWF style. And Champions aren't actually one of the more durable frontliners on the market (don't believe me? Try comparing to an Eldritch Knight, an Ancients Paladin, or a Zealot Barbarian).

Also, I would recommend taking advantage of your extra ASIs to pick up Ritual Caster. You're SAD and have extra ASIs, so you can afford it, and this gives you some sorely needed relevance outside of combat... as well as more help than you might expect in it. A familiar can give you Advantage on an attack. A Phantom Steed can boost your lame mobility. And so forth.

[Man_Over_Game]

I've actually been looking at your build for a while, trying to figure out how to make the most of it and to have fun. You have a unique scenario, with a 16 STR and 16 DEX.

Specifically, your AC will not increase due to an ASI, and you are equally balanced with range and melee attacks.

So go Dual Wielder and grab yourself a long bow.

With Dual Wielder, you can increase your melee AC by another +1 (pushing it to 19) while also increasing your damage to an average of +1 per attack. You can afford to get a second fighting style (TWF, Archery, Defensive, whatever you want), so you can be a more versatile Fighter than anything else. You aren't the "Sharpshooter who can handle himself in melee", or the "Warrior who can occasionally throw a javelin", but "the badass that does whatever he wants".

The team needs a tank? Your 20 AC says you're the man.
Your team needs a skirmisher? Pull out that longbow and go to town at 150 range.

[strangebloke]

It's because of this and some other factors (like the value of winning initiative) that the best single-classed Champions may well be Sharpshooters. Focusing on Dex also opens up Elven Accuracy, which synergizes very nicely indeed with your expanded crit range. And the Archery style generally does more to help you than the GWF style. And Champions aren't actually one of the tankier martials around (don't believe me? Try comparing to an Eldritch Knight, an Ancients Paladin, or a Zealot Barbarian).

Oh yeah I 100% agree. Ranged combat is already the best weapon set in the game, and elven accuracy goes just perfectly with the improved crit range.

Your crit chance gets up to 28% per shot, you'll nearly never miss even with the sharpshooter penalty, and that's before your crit range gets expanded again at level 15. Then the crit chance goes up to 38.5%!!! That's per attack! If you don't think that's crazy, pick up an oathbow sometime.

The trick is getting advantage. Familiars are nice but only for one attack. Fairy Fire is awesome if your caster will keep it up. Blindness, the spell works great as well and doesn't take concentration. The aforementioned oathbow is also solid.