Sell me on war/melee clerics

[Bannan_mantis]

So just to say it first clerics are far from just healing characters. They can heal but they can also do so much more than that so this isn't me saying clerics are only healers, forge clerics are good tanks and get pretty high AC, tempest clerics are pretty good damage dealers, light clerics clear hordes of enemies in seconds and etc. But from what I have seen war clerics and melee clerics overall are just...weak compared to other cleric choices.

The cleric is a full caster and they don't get fighting styles or extra attacks (unless you count the war clerics bonus action attack which is up to 5 extra attacks per long rest.) From what I have seen a melee cleric isn't going to be doing as much damage in combat as actual martial classes and since you put skills in melee you aren't going to be doing as much spell damage as caster based clerics so I just don't see good enough reasons for why going melee for a cleric is good.

Please explain builds and reasons as to why I might be wrong in this assumption cause I'd like for a melee cleric to be somewhat viable but I can't see it being as viable as other spell-sword type characters.

[LudicSavant]

So just to say it first clerics are far from just healing characters. They can heal but they can also do so much more than that so this isn't me saying clerics are only healers, forge clerics are good tanks and get pretty high AC, tempest clerics are pretty good damage dealers, light clerics clear hordes of enemies in seconds and etc. But from what I have seen war clerics and melee clerics overall are just...weak compared to other cleric choices.

The cleric is a full caster and they don't get fighting styles or extra attacks (unless you count the war clerics bonus action attack which is up to 5 extra attacks per long rest.) From what I have seen a melee cleric isn't going to be doing as much damage in combat as actual martial classes and since you put skills in melee you aren't going to be doing as much spell damage as caster based clerics so I just don't see good enough reasons for why going melee for a cleric is good.

Please explain builds and reasons as to why I might be wrong in this assumption cause I'd like for a melee cleric to be somewhat viable but I can't see it being as viable as other spell-sword type characters.

Just because you are standing in melee range doesn't mean all of your damage should be coming from the Attack action. In fact, with Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians you can do some pretty good damage without even using your Action at all (hence why the Dodge action is more popular than usual amongst Clerics).

As for War Clerics specifically:
One thing to understand about War Clerics is that they begin life as an enlisted man fighting on the front lines, personally delivering beatdowns with a blunt object... but later on get an officer promotion and take on the role of a general.

Spell list: You've got a list full of staples like Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon, which frees you up to prepare other things. You also get Crusader's Mantle way earlier than a Paladin gets it, and it stacks up really well with certain party compositions (those that get a lot of attacks and/or use minions are pretty brutal). You can even summon an army of the dead and give them all bonuses.

Level 2: War Priest / Guided Strike: This is what makes you a master of beatdowns at low levels. You get a full damage bonus action attack and the ability to turn a miss into a hit. These two factors, plus your buffs, make your frontliner DPR extremely respectable in any combat where you're spending resources. It'll fade off when other people start getting extra attack, but at that point you're starting to transition into your General role.

Level 6: War God's Blessing: "Turn the highest damage-per-hit character in the party's miss into a hit" is one of the higher effective DPR reactions in the game, and you get it twice per short rest (or three times, later).

Also, at this point you've got Spiritual Weapon / Spirit Guardians, so you can be doing that, plus this reaction, plus whatever you want to do with your Action. That's a lot of good stuff you're throwing downfield. War Priest is doing less now than it used to, but is still helping your resource efficiency (e.g. you can think of it as giving you effective rounds of Spiritual Weapon without actually casting Spiritual Weapon).

You also have Animate Dead and Crusader's Mantle. Basically, this is the point where you can just transition from beating people to death with a blunt object and being a magical general who just happens to whack people to supplement their main gig.

Level 8: Divine Strike: This ups your sword'n'board basic attack from 1d8+stat to 2d8+stat. A Fighter is going to have 2d8+2*stat+4 though. On the other hand, you've got better bonus actions, Concentration effects, and often reactions than they do. And are a full caster. You don't really need to outslug them with your basic attack.

If you do want to get the most out of your single strike with your Action, though, consider picking up Booming Blade from a race or feat. Note that it synergizes pretty well with the Cleric's various area hazards, like Spirit Guardians.

Level 17: Avatar of Battle: Nonmagical weapon attacks are still more common than you might think at this level. No really, look up how much of the Monster Manual has them. That Ancient Dragon is still hitting you with nonmagical teeth, claws, tail, and wings.

[Mackatrin]

The ability to wear heavy armor, the ability to buff yourself with divine magic to do more damage. Abunch of heals, avatar of war.

Back in 3.5, my DM encouraged me multiple times to stop rolling a Pally and just roll a Cleric, specifically due to the fact, Clerics are great early game and scale really well into mid to late game, where as Paladin's don't really become relevant till 5th/6th level. Plus they don't have to follow abunch of rules.

Also Clerics are fun as hell to Roleplay.

My overall thing with Clerics, is that you can make a Dwarf Cleric and just have a great time roleplaying it. My last character when I was a PC, was a Dwarven Forge Cleric, who's goal was to prove how superior his god was, by going to every city and forging the most magnificent weapon in the city to honor his god. It was alot of fun and overall, out of all the PCs, I was the most relevant at level 1 due to again, Heavy Armor and the weapons.

Clerics also synergizes with alot of different races, backgrounds, everything. I have to say out of all the classes in the game, as someone who has played since 2nd edition, they are the most fun to roleplay, have the least amount of downtime and overall I find to be the most enjoyable. Not only that, late game if you get that far, you have access to a huge list of spells.

Another fun thing you can do is take 3 levels of Fighter, then start leveling a War Domain Cleric and just laugh as you murder everything. Cleric synergizes well with lots of multiclass builds and you can have alot of experimentation, especially since you aren't limited to your alignment like back in 3.5

Though I still love me some pally, Cleric is hands down what I would always recommend to newer players after Fighter.

[LudicSavant]

The cleric is a full caster and they don't get fighting styles or extra attacks (unless you count the war clerics bonus action attack which is up to 5 extra attacks per long rest.) From what I have seen a melee cleric isn't going to be doing as much damage in combat as actual martial classes and since you put skills in melee you aren't going to be doing as much spell damage as caster based clerics so I just don't see good enough reasons for why going melee for a cleric is good.

I think you may be looking at this the wrong way. You shouldn't just be counting the War Cleric's bonus action attack from War Priest, you should be thinking about things like Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians, too, as sources of extra offense. And it's not an either/or thing of "I use melee or spells," you just use them both, simultaneously. If you cast Spiritual Weapon or something with your bonus action, you don't get to cast another spell with your Action. Might as well hit someone with a warhammer.

So, the local Champion Fighter has their extra attack and their extra crit range and their Action Surge, but at the same level you could walk up and hit them with your regular attack + divine strike + war priest + Spirit Guardians + War God's Blessing + skeletons, all in the same turn. And then do it again next turn. You should be no slouch in the damage department if you're managing your resources smartly.

[CTurbo]

Clerics can be very good in melee. War in particular just happen to be one of the weaker options. War Priest is not a very well thought out feature IMO as it's easily overshadowed by Spiritual Weapon. Sure you could build a niche GWM Maul wielding War Cleric that uses its +10 to hit to make sure it lands it's attack when it really needs it. I think the bonus attack should have been part of the action economy Wis model times per day.

Forge can get a higher AC, but really the Tempest domain is best in melee IMO getting all armor and weapons, having some great close range damaging spells, and the ability to deal damage as a reaction. I've played two Tempests that were strictly front line warriors and they were both great. One of them even used a great sword of all things lol.

As mentioned above, the combination of Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians is brutal in melee. You could even just spend your turns taking the dodge action if you want.

My greatsword Tempest took Sentinel and hung out next to the Barbarian who always attacks recklessly to draw attacks. I was able to reliably make use of my Divine Strike feature with my reaction, and then if I did get attacked, I would shock them for 2d8. I would go entire combats never attacking with my action, but always attacking with my reaction, bonus action, and auto damage from Spirit Guardians. This guy was easily the DPR in the group and it wasn't even close because when I wasnt do that, I was maxing out a upslotted Shatter or Thunderwave.

[visitor]

While all great responses, it seems they are or could be about clerics in general.

Apart from theme, what does the war cleric bring to the table to set itself apart from the other domains? Is it more effective in play than it seems on paper? What is the strength of the war domain?

Or is it the 4 elements subclass of the clerics?

[LudicSavant]

While all great responses, it seems they are or could be about clerics in general.

Apart from theme, what does the war cleric bring to the table to set itself apart from the other domains? Is it more effective in play than it seems on paper?

What the War Cleric brings:
- War Priest grants strong burst damage at very low levels, and Guided Strike makes it reliable. At later levels it fades into basically just being an extra spell slot or two of Spiritual Weapon that doesn't count as a spell, but that's not such a bad thing. Actually, it's a little better than Spiritual Weapon in the round you use it, because it lets you do things that Spiritual Weapon can't (like give you a second chance to land your Divine Strike bonus damage, or apply magic weapon bonuses, etc).

- The ability to turn a miss into a hit (with a huge margin at +10) is a really good reaction. Especially strong if you have party members who focus a lot of damage into a single attack (Sneak Attack, Booming Blade, Smite, spell attack rolls, etc). If you're getting two short rests a day, you get this a healthy 6 times a day. Remember, you only use this after an attack has already missed, and it adds a predictable flat amount, so you can totally just think of this as effectively being "as a reaction, do the Rogue's attack w/ sneak attack damage, with no chance of missing." That's a good reaction.

- It gets Crusader's Mantle at only level 5, which is mean with certain party compositions (those d4s can really add up quick for a party that uses things like Animate Dead, Summon Woodland Creatures, Flurry of Blows, Find Steed, Animate Objects, etc). The only other spell list that has this is Paladin.

- It's got a pretty decent spell list in general, with staples like Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians freeing up slots, and decent situational stuff like Magic Weapon that you might not have otherwise prepared, but will be thankful for if you run into something resistant or immune to nonmagical weapons.

- It has heavy armor and martial weapons. Only other one that does that in core is Tempest.

- Its Divine Strike deals the same sort of damage as the weapon attack. If that's just "magical slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing" this means almost nothing will resist it.

- Avatar of Battle halves all damage from nonmagical bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage, forever. You might think nonmagical weapon damage would be a thing of the past by level 17, but it's really not. Dragon claws, teeth, wings, etc all do nonmagical damage.

[solidork]

Ludic Savant has the right of it. I played a Half Orc War Cleric from 5-13 (playing through Princes of the Apocalypse) and I was quite effective. The bonus from War Priest gets better if you get your hands on some magic items.

[Trustypeaches]

I'd multiclass to pick up the SCAG cantrips somewhere.

[CTurbo]

While all great responses, it seems they are or could be about clerics in general.

Apart from theme, what does the war cleric bring to the table to set itself apart from the other domains? Is it more effective in play than it seems on paper? What is the strength of the war domain?

Or is it the 4 elements subclass of the clerics?


Like I was trying to say earlier, the War domain really doesn't have that THING that separates it from the rest. Guided Strike and War God's Blessing are good, but so limited. Avatar of Battle is REALLY strong, but comes on so late. The domain spells are alright, but nothing to spectacular.

I have seen a few War Clerics in action and it's not bad, just seems limited compared to other domains. One guy had a Vhuman War Cleric with GWM at level 1, 18 Str and Wis to start. He would cast Bless and go out and kill things with his Maul. He was OP from levels 1-4 but quickly leveled off. I wish I could have seen this character in the upper levels to see how it played out. You could probably build this character around GWM and Sentinel and it would be pretty "decent" in melee if you really wanted.


War Cleric is a great 1 or 2 level dip for Barbarians, Rangers, Fighters, or any other melee oriented build that would benefit from having a solid bonus action attack. I've seen a GWM Barb take a single level War Cleric dip for out of combat utility as well as the extra bonus action attack.

[stoutstien]

War domain is always a solid pick due to it's grade A spell list. There isn't a bad spell on the list and a lot of non standard cleric spells.

All armor and weapons make it a flexible domain. Ranged build actually are solid with war domain.

War priest bonus action attack is a feature I see a lot of players forget about because Wis mod per long rest makes it a fall back more than anything else if you run out of spell slots.

Guilded strike +10 hit after you see a roll 1-2 times a short rest. boring but solid

War gods blessings. Sharing is caring +10 hit is alot more useful on a party member that has more riding on a single strike. Gwm barbarian comes to mind but even a pally who can load up damage post hit will enjoy it.

Divine strike. Good thing magic weapon is on the domain list so you can bypass resistance and immunity until you get an actual magic weapon.

Avatar if battle. Comes too late to actually be useful but is great for charging into an army of skeletons in shrugging it off.

It's one of those domains that I felt that play fine but it could have been better. It wouldn't have been broken to give them extra attack at level 6 like sword in valor bards.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Honestly, I seriously considered (and wanted to play) a war domain cleric about 6 months ago. But the more I looked at it, the less I felt inspired by War. Especially once I started comparing to the the other holy warrior, the paladin (which I'd also never played before at that time). In particular, I focused in upon the Conquest paly. They get the +10 to hit channel divinity. They get Spiritual Weapon. And then they get all that other combat stuff that actually synergizes well with those abilities (divine smite, fighting style, extra attack).

I'm not saying that the one is definitely better than the other. I'm just saying that the war domain seems like a pretty sad choice for actual combat compared to the better combat-chassis of the paladin. And the conquest seems to work extra-well at this (although vengeance is obviously also awesome). Throw in a level of Hexblade, and you've eliminated most of the real weaknesses of the class (no cantrips, SAD instead of MAD, decent ranged attack cantrip).

If I were to play a cleric for (magical) damage or tanking, I'd go light or tempest over war. And I'd enjoy that. But for an actual melee-fighter holy warrior, I think paladin occupies the role better than war could ever hope to (although Spirit Guardians remains a great spell).

[Nhorianscum]

Clerics are buff and their main damage output (SW+SG) works best in mele and is some solid BC with SG. Domains with potent cantrip do better than domains with divine strike in terms of damage unless the striker picks up skagtrips. So playing in mele isn't bad for clerics at all. At level 5 a totally unoptimized cleric poking things with a stave will swing for 5d8+wis+1d6+str or dex assuming +4 wis +3 dex gives us 34.5/acc and saves DPR. Not bad at all.

War is a hard sell. You take this domain to buff hitrates more than you would with bless, and that's about it. 6/day +10 hit for the local GWM/SS is ok damage support but... It's just damage. The real prize of the domain is freedom of movement at 7th level to make your SG shenanigans crazy silly. The BA attack is good on the round you pop SG as a decent bit of action economy. It's down there with life in my personal tier of domains, but instead of healing some useless amount more (oh man heal recovers 73 now!) you get to play buddy cop for the party DPR more. That said it's solid and works in and out of multi's.

[djreynolds]

Spiritual weapon, is awesome, and is actually similar to beastmaster, sorry, but what I mean is you attack a guy over here and a gal over there, you can move that weapon 20ft a turn. Lots of versatility. And its a bonus action.

And with war cleric, if you're not using spiritual weapon that round, up to 5 times a day you can attack again with your maul.

And at 6th level, twice a rest you use +10 To hit, GWM is easy to land when needed. Or give that bonus to an allie.

If you kill someone, get a BA attack. And leave your spirit weapon there threatening , its good for 10 rounds, and save your other possible 5BAs for later.

[ImproperJustice]

I think the way to approach a War Cleric, is as a War Priest. As in, someone who stands next to his melee buddies and makes them better.

Bless, Crusader’s Mantle, Spirit Guardians are all meant be cast when shoulder to shoulder with your best buds taking it to the faces of non-believers.
Tough enemy?
Hold that monster down and let’s punch it together!
Your archer buddy needs to take that one-in a million shot to slay the dragon with that dragon slayer arrow?
Here comes a War Blessing!
And if they go down? You healing word or revivify them right back in there.

From an RP perspective you need to be urging your allies on to great feats of victory and glory!
Teach them not to fight and survive, but fight and die gloriously!!!
Afterall, that’s what your there for in case they do.

[stoutstien]

something i tossed together in my head on the way home from work.

war domain spells: same as PHB

armor and weapon prof:same as PHB

War priest : from 1st level you can call upon your deity to empower your strike. as a bonus action, once on each of your turns you can enhance the next strike you make when with a weapon attack, you can cause the attack to deal extra radiant damage equal to your wisdom modifier.

channel divinity: guided strike: same as PH

extra attack: Beginning at 6th level, you can Attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on Your Turn.

divine strike: same as PHB

avatar of battle:Starting at 17th level, when an attacker that you can see hits you with an Attack or makes you roll a saving throw, you can use your reaction to halve the attack's damage against you or grant advantage on the saving throw.
might ask a player to give it a test drive. i think it would make it more war cleric and less cheerleader of war

[Guy Lombard-O]

something i tossed together in my head on the way home from work.

[SPOILER=war domain ]

might ask a player to give it a test drive. i think it would make it more war cleric and less cheerleader of war

Now that I would play (instead of a paladin or tempest cleric).

I totally agree with ImproperJustice's description of the role of the war domain as War Priest, from front to back. But other than war's guided strike channel divinity, those are all things that a tempest cleric can also do (and tempest can throw in a couple of other nice things, too).

That said, I'll grant you that both divine favor and crusader's mantle on the war spell list make the war domain a bit better in that role, thematically. But giving up concentration from bless for divine favor, or spirit guardians for crusader's mantle, makes those spells as much of a trade-off as a pure power bump.

[CTurbo]

something i tossed together in my head on the way home from work.

war domain spells: same as PHB

armor and weapon prof:same as PHB

War priest : from 1st level you can call upon your deity to empower your strike. as a bonus action, once on each of your turns you can enhance the next strike you make when with a weapon attack, you can cause the attack to deal extra radiant damage equal to your wisdom modifier.

channel divinity: guided strike: same as PH

extra attack: Beginning at 6th level, you can Attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on Your Turn.

divine strike: same as PHB

avatar of battle:Starting at 17th level, when an attacker that you can see hits you with an Attack or makes you roll a saving throw, you can use your reaction to halve the attack's damage against you or grant advantage on the saving throw.
might ask a player to give it a test drive. i think it would make it more war cleric and less cheerleader of war


I would leave Avatar of Battle the same as is.
I do like the idea of giving the War Cleric an extra attack at level 6 like the Bladesinger, Valor Bard, etc...
I'm still not sure what to do with War Priest. It's not good as written in phb, but I don't like your change either. Adding Wis mod to damage is weaker than how it already is. I was thinking about something like this-

War Priest: The first time you take the attack action in combat, you can make one additional attack.

This would be similar to the Gloom Stalker's free attack. Yes that would give the War Cleric one round of 3 attacks after level 6, but I don't think that would terribly break things. If anything, It makes the often looked over Divine Favor a better spell to consider.



The only other thing I can think of is to keep War Priest as is at level 1, but at level 6, allow it to move from the bonus action to the attack action... keeping it Wis mod times per day. That would work, but the wording would be clunky. Basically at level 6, you get 2 attacks per attack action Wis mod times per day.

[Foxhound438]

I think you may be looking at this the wrong way. You shouldn't just be counting the War Cleric's bonus action attack from War Priest, you should be thinking about things like Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians, too, as sources of extra offense.


but a spellcasting focused cleric can do all that too, and usually better because they aren't investing in strength or dex with their ASI.


Might as well hit someone with a warhammer.


Or cast a cantrip, which will do more damage at every level past 4th. You can argue that something might have a real good dex save, but that usually also means it has a real good AC anyways, plus the inclusion of Xanathar's guide cantrips means you can almost always find a save that's weaker than their AC.

[LudicSavant]

but a spellcasting focused cleric can do all that too

Uhm, obviously? That paragraph was responding to a quote about melee clerics in general.

You seem to have neglected to quote the parts where I described things that a War Cleric, specifically, brings to the table. Several paragraphs worth of parts.


Or cast a cantrip, which will do more damage at every level past 4th. You can argue that something might have a real good dex save, but that usually also means it has a real good AC anyways, plus the inclusion of Xanathar's guide cantrips means you can almost always find a save that's weaker than their AC.

You're talking about dex saves, so I can assume you're talking about Sacred Flame. And... Sacred Flame does not outpace the damage of melee attacks at all levels past 4th.

[Nhorianscum]

Past 5th we get 2d8 (average 9)/save from Sflame, 2d12 (average 13)/save from toll the dead, and 2d6 (7 average)/save for word of radiance.

Vs 2d6 ((average 7) + 3)/acc for a mele strike without skag.

So 10 vs 9 for flame, with WoR and TtD doing more right off the bat.

Skagtrips apply both DStrike and PCanrtrip so they're our best mele damage regardless (2d6+1d8 average 11.5 average +3)/acc at 5.

Unless FSR you're taking GWM on a single class cleric (ohgodwhy) we're looking at Skag>Savetrips>Mele. From 5-20.

[Snowbluff]

I'd multiclass to pick up the SCAG cantrips somewhere.

This is what I did with my tempest cleric. I took a level of Storm Sorc for booming blades and Green Flame Blade. Significantly better than war cleric at what it does with some mad blasting skills. War Cleric is already weak with Spiritual Weapon and Sanctuary and Healing Word, but the difference is more noticeable when my bonus action can also improve my mobility.

[stoutstien]

I would leave Avatar of Battle the same as is.
I do like the idea of giving the War Cleric an extra attack at level 6 like the Bladesinger, Valor Bard, etc...
I'm still not sure what to do with War Priest. It's not good as written in phb, but I don't like your change either. Adding Wis mod to damage is weaker than how it already is. I was thinking about something like this-

War Priest: The first time you take the attack action in combat, you can make one additional attack.

This would be similar to the Gloom Stalker's free attack. Yes that would give the War Cleric one round of 3 attacks after level 6, but I don't think that would terribly break things. If anything, It makes the often looked over Divine Favor a better spell to consider.



The only other thing I can think of is to keep War Priest as is at level 1, but at level 6, allow it to move from the bonus action to the attack action... keeping it Wis mod times per day. That would work, but the wording would be clunky. Basically at level 6, you get 2 attacks per attack action Wis mod times per day.

yea i had the same issue. i didn't want to give the new war domain more power at lv 1 but at low lvs it gives them the equivalent to a pseudo fighting style. maybe if it took a reaction instead of BA

[LudicSavant]

Skagtrips apply both DStrike and PCanrtrip so they're our best mele damage regardless (2d6+1d8 average 11.5 average +3)/acc at 5.

Skagtrips do not get boosted by Potent Spellcasting unless you're an Arcana Cleric. Potent Spellcasting only boosts your Cleric cantrips. Got it from a multiclass or magic initiate? No Potent Spellcasting for you.

[Nhorianscum]

Skagtrips do not get boosted by Potent Spellcasting unless you're an Arcana Cleric. Potent Spellcasting only boosts your Cleric cantrips. Got it from a multiclass or magic initiate? No Potent Spellcasting for you.

Ah. Applogies. Good knowledge.

[darknite]

I've got a War domain cleric with a single dip into Sorc (Dragon) for access to Booming Blade & Shield.

It's nice having the heavy armor & shield prof, though Warcaster is pretty much mandatory. Typically he casts Spirit Guardians and wades into the fray with his warhammer + Booming Blade + Divine Strike, using his bonus action for Spiritual Weapon attacks or Healing Word casts. Rarely uses the Bonus Action War Priest attacks because he's using a cantrip to attack rather than the Attack action & these only refresh on long rests.

The high AC from plate and shield (both magical) keeps him hard to hit, with Shield tossed in when needed. Adds another front liner that adds an element of control and persistent damage to assist his team mates in the mosh pit.

[Misterwhisper]

Skagtrips do not get boosted by Potent Spellcasting unless you're an Arcana Cleric. Potent Spellcasting only boosts your Cleric cantrips. Got it from a multiclass or magic initiate? No Potent Spellcasting for you.

Yeah, arcana clerics are amazing I can still not make up my mind if I want an arcana cleric or forge cleric next character I play.

[GreyBlack]

Play a Life Cleric.

Plate armor, shield, mace, Spiritual Weapon, Guardian Spirits.

Your AC is 20, you're outputting huge amounts of AOE damage, and you're up in the front line in case a tank or other front liner goes down. You can defend your squishier party members by being a back line cleric if you want.

All of this, AND you can switch to range if you have to with a cantrip. To some, that's impressive as [REDACTED].

If that doesn't sell you on the melee Cleric, then you're in the same boat as I am when talking about Cleric's, which is to say thoroughly unimpressed.

[Trustypeaches]

Play a Life Cleric.

Plate armor, shield, mace, Spiritual Weapon, Guardian Spirits.

Your AC is 20, you're outputting huge amounts of AOE damage, and you're up in the front line in case a tank or other front liner goes down. You can defend your squishier party members by being a back line cleric if you want.

All of this, AND you can switch to range if you have to with a cantrip. To some, that's impressive as [REDACTED].

If that doesn't sell you on the melee Cleric, then you're in the same boat as I am when talking about Cleric's, which is to say thoroughly unimpressed.I mean that’s more of a “‘melee-range” build than a melee attack build.

[Citan]

So just to say it first clerics are far from just healing characters. They can heal but they can also do so much more than that so this isn't me saying clerics are only healers, forge clerics are good tanks and get pretty high AC, tempest clerics are pretty good damage dealers, light clerics clear hordes of enemies in seconds and etc. But from what I have seen war clerics and melee clerics overall are just...weak compared to other cleric choices.

The cleric is a full caster and they don't get fighting styles or extra attacks (unless you count the war clerics bonus action attack which is up to 5 extra attacks per long rest.) From what I have seen a melee cleric isn't going to be doing as much damage in combat as actual martial classes and since you put skills in melee you aren't going to be doing as much spell damage as caster based clerics so I just don't see good enough reasons for why going melee for a cleric is good.

Please explain builds and reasons as to why I might be wrong in this assumption cause I'd like for a melee cleric to be somewhat viable but I can't see it being as viable as other spell-sword type characters.
Hi!

I'll build upon this post since it's kinda exhaustive. ;)

What the War Cleric brings:
- War Priest grants strong burst damage at very low levels, and Guided Strike makes it reliable. At later levels it fades into basically just being an extra spell slot or two of Spiritual Weapon that doesn't count as a spell, but that's not such a bad thing. Actually, it's a little better than Spiritual Weapon in the round you use it, because it lets you do things that Spiritual Weapon can't (like give you a second chance to land your Divine Strike bonus damage, or apply magic weapon bonuses, etc).

- The ability to turn a miss into a hit (with a huge margin at +10) is a really good reaction. Especially strong if you have party members who focus a lot of damage into a single attack (Sneak Attack, Booming Blade, Smite, spell attack rolls, etc). If you're getting two short rests a day, you get this a healthy 6 times a day. Remember, you only use this after an attack has already missed, and it adds a predictable flat amount, so you can totally just think of this as effectively being "as a reaction, do the Rogue's attack w/ sneak attack damage, with no chance of missing." That's a good reaction.

- It gets Crusader's Mantle at only level 5, which is mean with certain party compositions (those d4s can really add up quick for a party that uses things like Animate Dead, Summon Woodland Creatures, Flurry of Blows, Find Steed, Animate Objects, etc). The only other spell list that has this is Paladin.

- It's got a pretty decent spell list in general, with staples like Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians freeing up slots, and decent situational stuff like Magic Weapon that you might not have otherwise prepared, but will be thankful for if you run into something resistant or immune to nonmagical weapons.

- It has heavy armor and martial weapons. Only other one that does that in core is Tempest.

- Its Divine Strike deals the same sort of damage as the weapon attack. If that's just "magical slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing" this means almost nothing will resist it.

- Avatar of Battle halves all damage from nonmagical bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage, forever. You might think nonmagical weapon damage would be a thing of the past by level 17, but it's really not. Dragon claws, teeth, wings, etc all do nonmagical damage.
- Guided Strike: quickly becomes mostly useless to you, right at the time it becomes great for others: as stressed by LudicSavant, its value varies wildly from "very forgettable (up a Fighter)" to "awesome (up a Paladin/Warlock with high level level smite or a high level Rogue/Whispers Bard)".
- Crusader's Mantle: even more party-dependant than the previous: completely crap in most parties, the best buff you could maintain with a Necromancer Wizard / Oathbreaker Paladin / Conjurer Wizard|Ranger|Druid bringing allies regularly.
- Proficiencies: imprecise enough: Life, Forge and Nature also get heavy armor, so it's really about martial weapons. How beneficial are they really? As far as melee goes, building around GWM would be a big waste, and PAM works with a simple quarterstaff. So the true loss really is access to 1d8 finesse weapons (if you really went for DEX build) and long-range weapons (which would also imply that you are far from the comrades you'd like to support/heal, and obviously you are not using Spirit Guardians). So, in short, most Clerics don't care at all about martial weapons.
- Divine Strike: basically you rely on having a magic weapon, which is not necessarily a big deal but still sad.

Honestly, War is imo by far the "weakest" Domain. It can certainly shine in specific party compositions, but is otherwise best used as an enhancer for another class: obviously those aforementioned, but some other may use the extra proficiencies and "self-accuracy boost" or simply use it because it's the perfect fluff for them while still bringing both spell-based and martial-based benefits: the immediate example coming to my mind would be a War Cleric / Battlemaster Fighter: imo one of the most synergizing fluffs, and made as a GWM-holder, holding the frontline with Spirit Guardians while giving extra oomph to aforementioned nova striker with combination of Commander's Strike + Guiding Strike, this character would be a fearsome force for enemies.
In other words, it's a "situational" Domain, much like Death (evil party or specific necrotic-based shenanigans) or Light (there is really nobody else for AOE) for example.
Great in specific contexts...
But when you are looking for a Cleric that meshes well with any kind of party, the top ones are still Tempest (best all around), Nature (second-best), Knowledge (you never have enough skills) and Grave (easier stabilize and "weakness on all damage from next attack" that can be combined with whatever high damage ability, including spells). Shortly next after coming Trickery (great party helper for scout/social/sneak), Forge (array of buffs and AOE) and the aforementioned Light (anti-Darkness, Fireball, defensive reaction).

[GreyBlack]

I mean that’s more of a “‘melee-range” build than a melee attack build.

Are you dealing damage, are you in melee, and are you attacking with a weapon?

It's a melee attack build.

[Tokuhara]

As a current Goliath Tempest Cleric, I can attest to the particular brand of god-bothering at the end of a melee weapon is mighty satisfying. Sure, you don't have the sheer number of attacks of a Fighter or Barbarian and you aren't as good at melee damage as a Paladin (and its two derivatives, the Hexadin and the Sorcadin), but you're a full caster on top of having a frankly scary AC, having strong melee range options, and the fact that most of the melee focused Cleric Domains give plenty of versatility and raw power at later levels.

[LudicSavant]

*snip*

Pretty much. The strength of a War Cleric (at least past levels 1-4) is in party combos. If you don't synergize with the party, you're not nearly as good.

The post-T1 War Cleric shines when they've got those party comps that lets them break 150 single target damage in a round at tier 2 while still spending less resources than a Tempest Cleric's nova combo. It's pretty brutal to see it in action, but it is very much a function of party synergy, so it's not for every party.

A War Cleric works best with teammates who either generate so many attacks that you roll an entire bucket of d4s for Crusader's Mantle (generally accomplished via things like animating the dead, animating objects, summoning creatures, sharing Haste to a Vengeance Paladin's mount, etc etc), or single attacks that turn War God's Blessing into a 50+ damage reaction.

As a solo act, Tempest or Arcana will likely serve better.

[visitor]

Pretty much. The strength of a War Cleric (at least past levels 1-4) is in party combos. If you don't synergize with the party, you're not nearly as good.

The post-T1 War Cleric shines when they've got those party comps that lets them break 150 single target damage in a round at tier 2 while still spending less resources than a Tempest Cleric's nova combo. It's pretty brutal to see it in action, but it is very much a function of party synergy, so it's not for every party.

A War Cleric works best with teammates who either generate so many attacks that you roll an entire bucket of d4s for Crusader's Mantle (generally accomplished via things like animating the dead, animating objects, summoning creatures, sharing Haste to a Vengeance Paladin's mount, etc etc), or single attacks that turn War God's Blessing into a 50+ damage reaction.

As a solo act, Tempest or Arcana will likely serve better.

Ah; this is the type of info/insight I was hoping to get from this thread.

[Corran]

I don't think clerics get enough stuff to justify wielding a melee weapon. Cantrips are stronger (or about as good for domains that get divine strike instead of potent spellcasting; even if playing a weapon wielding cleric you will be prioritizing wisdom bumps to str bumps -I don't think str bumps are a good investment anyway), weapon OA's attacks are a joke given how divine strike works (only on the cleric's turn) and also how warcaster (which allows spell OA's) is already a great pick for a cleric, even investing 7-9 points in STR at character creation (assuming point buy or standard array) is a poor choice IMO, when you can just get a 14 in dex and medium armor (or play a dwarf for a domain that has heavy armor prof). Shillelaugh is an action economy nightmare, scag cantrips require serious investment if you are not an arcana cleric (either multiclassing or a feat), and honestly there are only so many characters you can play that are all using scag cantrips. Generally, I see less favourably cleric domains that give access to martial weapons and to divine strike, as I view them almost as non-features, or as ribbons. I still appreciate heavy armor (because there are ways to counteract the movement penalty, the most obvious of which is being a dwarf). My fix would be to allow divine strike work off turn as well. As for war clerics, maybe give them extra attack (and take away something else if this would break things)? I mean, so many archetypes get access to extra attack that it seems like a bad joke that a war cleric (who doesn't automatically get access to weapon cantrips) wouldn't have it.

[visitor]

Maybe this should be a separate thread; but how do valor bards compare with war clerics in the sense of how useful/impactful are their melee capabilities? How does melee combat figure into the valor bards style of play vs the war cleric?

[Citan]

Maybe this should be a separate thread; but how do valor bards compare with war clerics in the sense of how useful/impactful are their melee capabilities? How does melee combat figure into the valor bards style of play vs the war cleric?
I'm not sure I understand your questioning, so I'll just add a few ideas and see if that is what you were looking for.

War Cleric is probably the most "sustainable" and the most "predictible" (which is good because friends can anticipate what you'll do, kinda bad because enemies too if you are warring a faction^^). Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians are even better upcast, but even at starting level they are pretty good already, so you can quickly use the same setup every round.
In addition to that, you have abilities that help you strike well.

Valor Bard's martial benefit are mainly Combat Inspiration. I was pretty interested at first by the "make a weapon attack when casting a spell" feature, but I actually rarely see it into play for a single-class: the spells that would benefit the most of it that you could pick with Magic Secrets are smite spells/Ensnaring Strike/Shadow Blade, which use bonus action themselves.
And barring this kind of corner case, rarely will a single weapon attack make any difference, unless targeting a creature that has debuffs from you or others previously set up, like Hex, Bestow Curse, etc. Or using a magic weapon that could have a powerful effect (saying blindly here, I know very little about magic weapons array of effects).
BUT the saving grace of Valor Bard is both Expertise and Magic Secrets. The first, coupled with Shield Master feat or simply Extra Attack, means that you can reliably set creatures prone while still dealing good damage. The second means that whatever party you are in, you *will* be as efficient as you could ever be (well, provided you choose spells well of course XD). More generally, you can grab very interesting spells: obvious ones being Circle of Power for support, while self-buffs would include Elemental Weapon, Shadow Blade, Blur, Mirror Image, etc.

TL;DR: for "pick up and play" War Cleric is better, it's all there.
For "playing a custom-built melee caster" Valor Bard is much better because of the tailoring options (also, I'd argue that Swords Bard is as good or better but it's much more self-focused and topic is about being supportive so... ;)).

[visitor]

I'm not sure I understand your questioning, so I'll just add a few ideas and see if that is what you were looking for.

War Cleric is probably the most "sustainable" and the most "predictible" (which is good because friends can anticipate what you'll do, kinda bad because enemies too if you are warring a faction^^). Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians are even better upcast, but even at starting level they are pretty good already, so you can quickly use the same setup every round.
In addition to that, you have abilities that help you strike well.

Valor Bard's martial benefit are mainly Combat Inspiration. I was pretty interested at first by the "make a weapon attack when casting a spell" feature, but I actually rarely see it into play for a single-class: the spells that would benefit the most of it that you could pick with Magic Secrets are smite spells/Ensnaring Strike/Shadow Blade, which use bonus action themselves.
And barring this kind of corner case, rarely will a single weapon attack make any difference, unless targeting a creature that has debuffs from you or others previously set up, like Hex, Bestow Curse, etc. Or using a magic weapon that could have a powerful effect (saying blindly here, I know very little about magic weapons array of effects).
BUT the saving grace of Valor Bard is both Expertise and Magic Secrets. The first, coupled with Shield Master feat or simply Extra Attack, means that you can reliably set creatures prone while still dealing good damage. The second means that whatever party you are in, you *will* be as efficient as you could ever be (well, provided you choose spells well of course XD). More generally, you can grab very interesting spells: obvious ones being Circle of Power for support, while self-buffs would include Elemental Weapon, Shadow Blade, Blur, Mirror Image, etc.

TL;DR: for "pick up and play" War Cleric is better, it's all there.
For "playing a custom-built melee caster" Valor Bard is much better because of the tailoring options (also, I'd argue that Swords Bard is as good or better but it's much more self-focused and topic is about being supportive so... ;)).

Thanks, that does answer my poorly written question:

I gathered from this and other threads that a cleric’s main damage/impact in an encounter is really not his melee attacks (even despite melee more or less being war domain’s schtick). It just made valor bards come to mind.; and In a similar way how significant were melee attacks in their play in combat

[darknite]

I suppose the main reason I chose to play a (primarily) War Cleric is that I wanted to have a character that could provide the standard cleric support elements while also being able to scrum in the front line to some degree of effectiveness. SCAG cantrips help and the 1 level Sorc dip allows him to often have a higher level spell slot for spells he can't yet cast, which is usually used to up-cast Aid (everyone loves a 6th level Aid!). His battlefield control abilities via Spirit Guardians and Booming Blade are useful at all levels, too.

[Pex]

It's simple for me if I want to play a warrior-type cleric.

Spiritual Weapon is my extra attack. Sacred Flame & Toll The Dead are my range attack.

I do not give a Hoover how my damage compares to any one else. It only matters to me what I do is significant. It is. Of course I also have my other spells and Channel Divinity. When I want to make a melee attack I don't resent I'm not casting a spell. I don't need to cast one at that moment, so I get to conserve for when I do. When I do cast a spell I don't resent I'm not making a melee attack. I need to cast that spell. That's the whole point of having it and using it. I have the versatility of choice to make an attack or cast a spell. I do not need to do everything all at once all the time every time. Nothing is wasted if I don't use something in a particular round or combat.

Analyzing has its place but analysis paralysis is a thing. In board games it makes your turn take too long. In an RPG you're never satisfied with the character you have. You don't need to eke out every extra point of damage possible. Don't sweat the small stuff. Strive to be effective, not the best.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Thanks, that does answer my poorly written question:

I gathered from this and other threads that a cleric’s main damage/impact in an encounter is really not his melee attacks (even despite melee more or less being war domain’s schtick). It just made valor bards come to mind.; and In a similar way how significant were melee attacks in their play in combat

I found that Valor Bard's combat abilities were fun to have, but my character was never any more than a second-stringer in the weapons department. They just have no other abilities which back up combat (sword has some, I guess), so they never do more than just contribute when using a weapon. 1d8+(3 to 5) X 2 isn't bad or anything. But at lvl 10+, there's usually something much more significant you could be doing with a spell than just doing 20 damage to something with a rapier.

My bard had sharpshooter, and that helped a bit. I could at least maintain a concentration spell while hanging back and plinking away with a bow. But it was really only something I did in non-terminal encounters, to conserve resources for more serious threats.

Point being, any cleric's main damage is likely to come from their spells. But I still think it's discordant that a War priest can't have extra attack, while a valor or swords bard or a warlock does.

[Misterwhisper]

I found that Valor Bard's combat abilities were fun to have, but my character was never any more than a second-stringer in the weapons department. They just have no other abilities which back up combat (sword has some, I guess), so they never do more than just contribute when using a weapon. 1d8+(3 to 5) X 2 isn't bad or anything. But at lvl 10+, there's usually something much more significant you could be doing with a spell than just doing 20 damage to something with a rapier.

My bard had sharpshooter, and that helped a bit. I could at least maintain a concentration spell while hanging back and plinking away with a bow. But it was really only something I did in non-terminal encounters, to conserve resources for more serious threats.

Point being, any cleric's main damage is likely to come from their spells. But I still think it's discordant that a War priest can't have extra attack, while a valor or swords bard or a warlock does.

Most valor bards I have seen were more along the lines of, thanks for the medium armor and shield, I will continue being g a full caster now and almost never used the weapon at all unless they were just going to use a cantrip anyway.

When I say most I mean the only 2 bards I have ever seen that were not lore.