Sneak Attack Question . . .

[Two-Penny]

Okay, my DM and I have been fighting over this for a while. He’s the DM so of course I lose that fight . . . but, I’d like to throw the question out here just for my own piece of mind.
In the description of Sneak Attack, it states:

“You don't need advantage on the Attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn't Incapacitated, and you don't have disadvantage on the Attack roll.”

I take that as to mean as long as my foe is distracted by some other menacing creature, that I can “Sneak one in”, so to speak and stab the guy in a vital spot.
So far so good; the DM and I agree on that. But here’s the issue: now that I’m a Swashbuckler, and have Rakish Audacity he believes the feature is now limited.

“In addition, you don't need advantage on your attack roll to use your Sneak Attack if no creature other than your target is within 5 feet of you. All the other rules for the Sneak Attack class feature still apply to you”

I believe that this is saying that now that I’m higher level, I’m sneakier and no longer need someone menacing my foe for me to slip on in.
My DM insists that now that I MUST have advantage if there’s another creature within 5’.
Had the official wording said only “In addition, you don't need advantage on your attack roll to use your Sneak Attack”, I don’t think there would be this confusion.
Has anyone else had this issue? Am I just dead wrong?

[Peelee]

Okay, my DM and I have been fighting over this for a while. He’s the DM so of course I lose that fight . . . but, I’d like to throw the question out here just for my own piece of mind.
In the description of Sneak Attack, it states:

“You don't need advantage on the Attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn't Incapacitated, and you don't have disadvantage on the Attack roll.”

I take that as to mean as long as my foe is distracted by some other menacing creature, that I can “Sneak one in”, so to speak and stab the guy in a vital spot.
So far so good; the DM and I agree on that. But here’s the issue: now that I’m a Swashbuckler, and have Rakish Audacity he believes the feature is now limited.

“In addition, you don't need advantage on your attack roll to use your Sneak Attack if no creature other than your target is within 5 feet of you. All the other rules for the Sneak Attack class feature still apply to you”

I believe that this is saying that now that I’m higher level, I’m sneakier and no longer need someone menacing my foe for me to slip on in.
My DM insists that now that I MUST have advantage if there’s another creature within 5’.
Had the official wording said only “In addition, you don't need advantage on your attack roll to use your Sneak Attack”, I don’t think there would be this confusion.
Has anyone else had this issue? Am I just dead wrong?

A.) Posting this in the 5e subforum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?63-D-amp-D-5e-Next) would have been better. If you report your own post (the little triangle in the bottom left under your username) and ask a mod to move it, they most likely will move it for ya.

2.) That said, here's what I found on a post (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/72837/can-a-swashbuckler-use-sneak-attack-every-turn-on-an-isolated-target) asking if Swashbuckler could use Sneak Attack on an isolated enemy every turn (it seems to fit):

To summarize, the following conditions will prohibit you from using Sneak Attack, assuming there isn't an external effect providing Advantage.

Swashbuckler is within 5 feet of more than one hostile creature or character.
Swashbuckler is attacking the target at melee range and a friendly character or creature is within 5 feet of him but isn't within 5 feet of the target.
Per a twitter post by Jeremy Crawford (https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/663514748785262592), Rules as Intended want the Swashbuckler to be within 5 feet of the target. In effect, Rackish Audacity should be written with "except" instead of "other."

Hope that helps!

[Douglas]

“In addition, you don't need advantage on your attack roll to use your Sneak Attack if no creature other than your target is within 5 feet of you. All the other rules for the Sneak Attack class feature still apply to you”

I believe that this is saying that now that I’m higher level, I’m sneakier and no longer need someone menacing my foe for me to slip on in.
My DM insists that now that I MUST have advantage if there’s another creature within 5’.
Had the official wording said only “In addition, you don't need advantage on your attack roll to use your Sneak Attack”, I don’t think there would be this confusion.
Has anyone else had this issue? Am I just dead wrong?
It's... a class feature that specifically removes a requirement for Sneak Attack. It most certainly does not add a requirement, and doesn't even hint at doing so. The whole point of the feature is "In addition to all the ways you could already use Sneak Attack, here's a new one."

If you could Sneak Attack in a particular situation before, you still can. And really, what sense would it make for improving your skills (as represented by gaining a level) to result in getting worse at the skill you're improving?

If you could not Sneak attack in a particular situation before, then sometimes you can now. That's what this class feature does. It's the whole point of the feature.

[Unoriginal]

Basically:

-If you are a Rogue, you get Sneak Attack if you have Advantage on the attack or if there is your ally is within 5ft of the target.

-If you are a Swashbuckler, you do NOT need an Advantage or an ally within 5ft of the target for your Sneak Attack, as long as you yourself are within 5ft of the target (so it doesn't work for ranged or reach weapons).

I honestly have no idea how your DM is reading this the way he does.

[Theodoxus]

...here's what I found on a post (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/72837/can-a-swashbuckler-use-sneak-attack-every-turn-on-an-isolated-target) asking if Swashbuckler could use Sneak Attack on an isolated enemy every turn (it seems to fit):

That's a very convoluted way of expressing it... took me a couple of reads to make sure I understood what he was getting at.

As Douglas notes, it's an addition to, not replacement of, the sneak attack rules.

You get sneak when:

1) You have advantage (regardless of any other circumstance).
2) You have an ally (friendly or unfriendly to you, doesn't matter) within 5' of your target - whether or not you are as well - yay ranged sneak attacks! (Regardless if you have advantage or not.)
3) As a swashbuckler, you're going toe to toe with a single enemy (no other enemies within 5' of your target (because remember, if you have an ally (friendly or unfriendly to you) you still get sneak as per #2.

I've played swashbucklers almost exclusively when I play rogue - #3 comes up very very rarely. I like swash for the bonus to Initiative and non-magical charm effect from Persuasion; if you have a melee buddy, just pluck away with a short bow or hand crossbow and get sneak that way... dash in, poke, run away when the opportunity presents itself (especially if you don't have a melee buddy) - but I wouldn't recommend building around that aspect unless you have no other choice.

[bid]

-If you are a Swashbuckler, you do NOT need an Advantage or an ally within 5ft of the target for your Sneak Attack, as long as you yourself are within 5ft of the target (so it doesn't work for ranged or reach weapons).
And, here's the bummer, "no other creature is within 5 feet of you".

You can SA if:
- as a rogue, you have advantage
- as a rogue, one of your allies is by the target
- as a swashbuckler, nobody but the target is by you

So yeah, your DM seems right.

[Pleh]

Okay, my DM and I have been fighting over this for a while. He’s the DM so of course I lose that fight . . . but, I’d like to throw the question out here just for my own piece of mind.
In the description of Sneak Attack, it states:

“You don't need advantage on the Attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn't Incapacitated, and you don't have disadvantage on the Attack roll.”

I take that as to mean as long as my foe is distracted by some other menacing creature, that I can “Sneak one in”, so to speak and stab the guy in a vital spot.
So far so good; the DM and I agree on that. But here’s the issue: now that I’m a Swashbuckler, and have Rakish Audacity he believes the feature is now limited.

“In addition, you don't need advantage on your attack roll to use your Sneak Attack if no creature other than your target is within 5 feet of you. All the other rules for the Sneak Attack class feature still apply to you”

I believe that this is saying that now that I’m higher level, I’m sneakier and no longer need someone menacing my foe for me to slip on in.
My DM insists that now that I MUST have advantage if there’s another creature within 5’.
Had the official wording said only “In addition, you don't need advantage on your attack roll to use your Sneak Attack”, I don’t think there would be this confusion.
Has anyone else had this issue? Am I just dead wrong?


Basically:

-If you are a Rogue, you get Sneak Attack if you have Advantage on the attack or if there is your ally is within 5ft of the target.

-If you are a Swashbuckler, you do NOT need an Advantage or an ally within 5ft of the target for your Sneak Attack, as long as you yourself are within 5ft of the target (so it doesn't work for ranged or reach weapons).

I honestly have no idea how your DM is reading this the way he does.

That's not quite what I see.

I see:
Rogues may Sneak Attack
If they have Advantage
OR
If they have an ally next to the target ("the advantage of numbers")

Swashbucklers may additionally sneak attack as long as adjacent creatures include only the target and allies (basically if the target does NOT have the advantage of numbers).

[Unoriginal]

That's not quite what I see.

I see:
Rogues may Sneak Attack
If they have Advantage
OR
If they have an ally next to the target ("the advantage of numbers")

Swashbucklers may additionally sneak attack as long as adjacent creatures include only the target and allies (basically if the target does NOT have the advantage of numbers).

This is not correct. It has nothing to do with advantage of number. You could have two Rogues vs 20 guards, the Rogues would always have Sneak Attack on all the guards who are within 5ft of both. However, a Swashbuckler alone vs 20 guards would always have Sneak Attack on all their foes (as long as the foes are within normal melee range).

[Astofel]

Rogues get sneak attack when:
-They have advantage on attack rolls against the target
-The target has a hostile creature within 5ft of it (the hostile creature doesn't have to be your ally), the hostile creature isn't incapacitated, and you don't have disadvantage on the attack roll.

Additionally, swashbucklers get sneak attack when:
-They are within 5 ft of the target, no creatures besides the target are within 5 ft of the swashbuckler, and the swashbuckler doesn't have disadvantage on the attack roll.

To demonstrate, here's some setups that will and won't work for sneak attack (A=ally, S=swashbuckler, T=target, M= monster)

A S T - Does not get sneak attack, there is another creature within 5 ft of the swashbuckler

A
S T - Does get sneak attack, an enemy of the target is within 5 ft of it

S T A - Does get sneak attack, both from Rakish Audacity and base rogue features

S T - Does get sneak attack, the swashbuckler is within 5 ft of the target, and only the target is within 5 ft of the swashbuckler

M
S T - Does not get sneak attack, there is a creature other than the target within 5 ft of the swashbuckler

S T M - Does get sneak attack, there is no creature other than the target within 5 ft of the swashbuckler

S T - Does not get sneak attack, the swashbuckler is not within 5 ft of the target

M
S T A - Does get sneak attack, there is an enemy of the creature within 5 ft of the target

tl;dr your DM is wrong about this. Rakish Audacity only adds to the ways to use sneak attack, and removes nothing.

[bid]

However, a Swashbuckler alone vs 20 guards would always have Sneak Attack on all their foes (as long as the foes are within normal melee range).
Not quite right, you need to engage a single guard at a time. You couldn't SA one in the middle of the line because you'd be adjacent to 2 other creatures.

[thoroughlyS]

I believe that this is saying that now that I’m higher level, I’m sneakier and no longer need someone menacing my foe for me to slip on in.
My DM insists that now that I MUST have advantage if there’s another creature within 5’.
As a swashbuckler, you deal extra damage on a hit if any of the following are true:

You have advantage on the attack roll.
Another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll.
You are within 5 feet of the target, no other creatures are within 5 feet of you, and you don't have disadvantage on the attack roll.

I think the disagreement stems from a misinterpretation of the middle clause of the Rakish Audacity condition. Your DM probably understands it as:
You are within 5 feet of the target, no other creatures are within 5 feet of youthe target, and you don't have disadvantage on the attack roll.
I would try to clarify this point with them.




However, a Swashbuckler alone vs 20 guards would always have Sneak Attack on all their foes (as long as the foes are within normal melee range).
*If, and only if, they are within 5 feet of only one guard at a time.

[ad_hoc]

This is not correct. It has nothing to do with advantage of number. You could have two Rogues vs 20 guards, the Rogues would always have Sneak Attack on all the guards who are within 5ft of both. However, a Swashbuckler alone vs 20 guards would always have Sneak Attack on all their foes (as long as the foes are within normal melee range).

That's not right.

1 Swashbuckler vs 20 guards - If 2 of the guards are next to the Swashbuckler then their Rakish Audacity does not apply.

"no other creatures are within 5 feet of you"

[JakOfAllTirades]

Okay, my DM and I have been fighting over this for a while. He’s the DM so of course I lose that fight . . . but, I’d like to throw the question out here just for my own piece of mind.
In the description of Sneak Attack, it states:

“You don't need advantage on the Attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn't Incapacitated, and you don't have disadvantage on the Attack roll.”

I take that as to mean as long as my foe is distracted by some other menacing creature, that I can “Sneak one in”, so to speak and stab the guy in a vital spot.
So far so good; the DM and I agree on that. But here’s the issue: now that I’m a Swashbuckler, and have Rakish Audacity he believes the feature is now limited.

“In addition, you don't need advantage on your attack roll to use your Sneak Attack if no creature other than your target is within 5 feet of you. All the other rules for the Sneak Attack class feature still apply to you”

I believe that this is saying that now that I’m higher level, I’m sneakier and no longer need someone menacing my foe for me to slip on in.
My DM insists that now that I MUST have advantage if there’s another creature within 5’.
Had the official wording said only “In addition, you don't need advantage on your attack roll to use your Sneak Attack”, I don’t think there would be this confusion.
Has anyone else had this issue? Am I just dead wrong?

Your DM seems to think that gaining new class features actually make characters WORSE at using their abilities.

That's not how it works, and he's deeply confused.

[Galithar]

Your DM is wrong, flat out.

You can sneak attack so long as ANY condition of your sneak attack is met AND you don't have disadvantage.

Have Advantage = Sneak Attack
Enemy of the target within 5 feet (note this DOESN'T require them to be YOUR Ally, just your targets enemy) = Sneak Attack
No creature within 5 feet of you, except the target who is required to be within 5 feet of you. = Sneak Attack

[Unoriginal]

You guys are right, I was missing a part


Your DM is wrong, flat out.

You can sneak attack so long as ANY condition of your sneak attack is met AND you don't have disadvantage.

Have Advantage = Sneak Attack
Enemy of the target within 5 feet (note this DOESN'T require them to be YOUR Ally, just your targets enemy) = Sneak Attack
No creature within 5 feet of you, except the target who is required to be within 5 feet of you. = Sneak Attack

This put it the most clearly, I think.

[Douglas]

I think the disagreement stems from a misinterpretation of the middle clause of the Rakish Audacity condition. Your DM probably understands it as:
You are within 5 feet of the target, no other creatures are within 5 feet of youthe target, and you don't have disadvantage on the attack roll.
I would try to clarify this point with them.
That seems likely. With that misreading, the normal rule and the class feature are both talking about the same condition - whether there's another creature next to the target - so it would make sense that the clause from the class feature is a replacement of the normal one.

Point out to your DM that Rakish Audacity is about what's near you, not your target, and see if that changes anything.

From a fluff perspective, the normal rule is about whether your target is distracted, while Rakish Audacity is about whether you are able to focus enough to make it not matter. Either condition is sufficient for Sneak Attack, but they're focused around different creatures.

[DarkKnightJin]

Rakish Audacity
You also gain an additional way to use your Sneak Attack; you don't need advantage on the attack roll to use your Sneak Attack against a creature if you are within 5 feet of it, no other creatures are within 5 feet of you, and you don't have disadvantage on the attack roll. All the other rules for Sneak Attack still apply to you.

Emphasis mine.
The other rules for Sneak Attack are as such:


Sneak Attack
Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe's distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.

You don't need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn't incapacitated, and you don't have disadvantage on the attack roll.

[MThurston]

This is not correct. It has nothing to do with advantage of number. You could have two Rogues vs 20 guards, the Rogues would always have Sneak Attack on all the guards who are within 5ft of both. However, a Swashbuckler alone vs 20 guards would always have Sneak Attack on all their foes (as long as the foes are within normal melee range).

This not correct. The below is a Swashbuckler rogue.

E= enemy
R= Rogue

ER = S.A. for the rogue

ERE = no S.A.

E----------R = S.A. if hidden.

A=Allie

AE------------R = S.A. with thrown dagger or bow.

AERE = Rogue has S.A. on the left E but not the right E.

AE ------------RE = Rogue can get S.A. on the Right E with a melee weapon and get S.A. on the left E with a thrown dagger or bow. As long as the rogue has the crossbow expert feat or another effect taking away disadvantage.

[Zalabim]

Some people have been using it, but it's probably worth pointing out for OP's benefit. Xanathar's Guide to Everything gives an updated wording to the Swashbuckler's Rakish Audacity feature. It starts, "You also gain an additional way to use your Sneak Attack:"