Grafts and cloning

[CIDE]

Alright!

I want to get some discussion rolling out here. Raw, Rai, opinions, houserules, how you'd DM it? What happens to grafts on a character that creates a clone of themselves? If the grafts are duplicated can't this be exploited to collect more and more of the same grafts? Even some of the cheapest grafts available are going to cost more than the casting of the clone spell. What happens to the grafts that are now on the old deceased body?

What have you got, playground?

[Nifft]

Do your clones appear with the mundane equipment & magic items the original was wearing? Probably not.

Grafts and symbionts are weird magic items, not inherent to the character.

(But if you do get cloned gear, then yes.)

[CIDE]

Grafts are no longer treated as magical items and don't ping as magic anymore once they're part of a person. Additionally, Clone has this bit...


The clone is physically identical with the original and possesses the same personality and memories as the original. In other respects, treat the clone as if it were the original character raised from the dead, including the loss of one level or 2 points of Constitution (if the original was a 1st-level character).

Which, in that case, the grafts will still be in place, right? RAW vs RAI on two sets of rules never intended to interact.

[Nifft]

Grafts are no longer treated as magical items Since when?

The books I looked at put Grafts under the Magic Items section heading, and Graft creation feats are [Item Creation] feats -- new style and old style, both types are [Item Creation] feats, and both new style and old style Grafts are grouped in the Magic Item chapters of their respective books.




Which, in that case, the grafts will still be in place, right? RAW vs RAI on two sets of rules never intended to interact.


The spell duplicates only the original’s body and mind, not its equipment.
If you accounted for your grafts in your WBL, then you lose them per RAW.

[Crake]

I can see what angle you're trying to take this at, but if you imagine what cloning is meant to represent in pop culture, you would have a completely fresh, unharmed body. Honestly, clone should also come along with a regenerate on all damaged limbs, remove all scars, and things of that nature, but honestly, the easiest way to put it is like this:

If you cut off your arm and put on a cybernetic limb, would you expect the cybernetic limb to be there when you clone yourself? I hardly think so. Grafts are not part of you, they are additions to your body that have been attached. Whether they are warforged metal/wood limbs, or fiendish wings, they aren't a part of your genetic makeup and, by RAI at the very least, wouldn't be re-grown in the cloning lab.

[Jack_Simth]

Since when?It's part of the header for grafts, rather than the specific feats. And, of course, those are spread out a bit. A quote from Lords of Madness:
The effects of grafts are extraordinary abilities, meaning that they do not fail to function in an antimagic field or similar area.
and
Even if magic was used in its creation, a graft does not radiate magic once completed, it does not count against a creature’s limit for magic items worn, it does not have a caster level, and it is very difficult, if not impossible, to salvage as treasure.(both page 215)

Edit: Ooh, and to answer part of the OP's question: Races of the Dragon (page 127) has:

Similarly, a graft on a creature that is killed also dies instantly and can’t be harvested and reused. Among other effects, this means that an NPC’s graft probably can’t be recovered as treasure. For tips on dealing with this in the game, the DM should consult the Draconic Grafts as Treasure sidebar (see page 129). A graft should, however, be treated as part of a creature for the purpose of being brought back from the dead, so a character who is killed and resurrected returns with her grafts intact.(Emphasis added)

So - at least once it's activated - a clone of a person with grafts should have those grafts. Before activation... I'd be inclined to say that the grafts are just as much "a soulless bit of inert flesh, which rots if not preserved" as specified by the Clone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm) spell. AKA, no, you can't duplicate grafts that way. The graft would have to die along with you for the clone graft to work.

[Jowgen]

Similarly, a graft on a creature that is killed also dies instantly and can't be harvested and reused.

So unless there is a spell that can make the body still count as alive even though the creature has died, no dice on harvesting the freshly deads grafts.

Similarly, while the clone of a still living creature would appear to have the grafts (per the rule about them coming along upon resurrection), as it's not a creature at that point (living, undead or otherwise), the grafts aren't viable to harvest either.

The one way I can see around this is to use a means of reanimation on the corpse that isn't exclusive with coming back via clone. Perhaps bringing back as a mind/soul-less undead would work, at least in the case of undead grafts.

[TheCount]

Gentle repose?

[CIDE]

Sorry about the delay on responses. I have a break to catch up on everything now.



If you accounted for your grafts in your WBL, then you lose them per RAW.

The first part of your response was covered b y someone else. This part, though.... Where is that mentioned?


I can see what angle you're trying to take this at, but if you imagine what cloning is meant to represent in pop culture, you would have a completely fresh, unharmed body. Honestly, clone should also come along with a regenerate on all damaged limbs, remove all scars, and things of that nature, but honestly, the easiest way to put it is like this:

If you cut off your arm and put on a cybernetic limb, would you expect the cybernetic limb to be there when you clone yourself? I hardly think so. Grafts are not part of you, they are additions to your body that have been attached. Whether they are warforged metal/wood limbs, or fiendish wings, they aren't a part of your genetic makeup and, by RAI at the very least, wouldn't be re-grown in the cloning lab.


I can see where you're going and it makes sense if we were using scientific means to create a genetic clone of an entity. It kind of falls flat when you realize that the spell can be cast by a Waforged to create a duplicate of his (her? Its?) body and "grow" it in the same way that a human, elf, orc, or troll can without any issues. by it's wording it also duplicates the body using a snapshot in time and treats it like a resurrection. By RAW if the character is missing an arm when they used clone (hypothetically) the clone is grown without an arm despite the genetic template allowing for an arm to be grown.

My only concern comes to how grafts function. They're no longer magic items, are part of the body, and in the event of resurrection would still be functioning. The only difference is we're asking an 8th level spell to not just reanimate something but recreate it with the copy/paste function.





Edit: Ooh, and to answer part of the OP's question: Races of the Dragon (page 127) has:
(Emphasis added)

So - at least once it's activated - a clone of a person with grafts should have those grafts. Before activation... I'd be inclined to say that the grafts are just as much "a soulless bit of inert flesh, which rots if not preserved" as specified by the Clone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm) spell. AKA, no, you can't duplicate grafts that way. The graft would have to die along with you for the clone graft to work.

That's awesome. Kind of screws with an idea I had for an NPC in my homebrew setting but it's good to know.


So unless there is a spell that can make the body still count as alive even though the creature has died, no dice on harvesting the freshly deads grafts.

Similarly, while the clone of a still living creature would appear to have the grafts (per the rule about them coming along upon resurrection), as it's not a creature at that point (living, undead or otherwise), the grafts aren't viable to harvest either.

The one way I can see around this is to use a means of reanimation on the corpse that isn't exclusive with coming back via clone. Perhaps bringing back as a mind/soul-less undead would work, at least in the case of undead grafts.

Not only that but I can think of some awesome plot hooks here for someone to fake their death by making a zombie of themselves and letting it run around somewhere confusing everyone. And, while not raw, I can think of some sticky story ramifications of what happens when the original dies and their clone (now a zombie) is still intact for all sorts of DM shenanigans.

[unseenmage]

Tangentially related question... What happens when a Warforged with grafts and/or Embedded Warforged components is hit with the Incarnate Construct spell?

Similarly, what of a vampire with grafts hit with True Ressurection?

[gkathellar]

Tangentially related question... What happens when a Warforged with grafts and/or Embedded Warforged components is hit with the Incarnate Construct spell?

Grafts would work fine either way. RAW, I think embedded components would be too - but then, Incarnate Construct and Warforged were not written with each other in mind and a ton of logic issues that come up when you mix them.


Similarly, what of a vampire with grafts hit with True Ressurection?

It seems like they'd keep them, given grafts specifically talk about being part of the creature for purposes of resurrection.

[unseenmage]

Grafts would work fine either way. RAW, I think embedded components would be too - but then, Incarnate Construct and Warforged were not written with each other in mind and a ton of logic issues that come up when you mix them.

...
I imagine Wolverine's claws are embedded components. A warforged Wolverine wouldn't cut through his own hands to use them.

A functioning embedded Handy Haversack would be mega gross after the Incarnate process though. And would require a UMD check to even use now that its bearer isnt a Warforged.

[Necroticplague]

I imagine Wolverine's claws are embedded components. A warforged Wolverine wouldn't cut through his own hands to use them.

A functioning embedded Handy Haversack would be mega gross after the Incarnate process though. And would require a UMD check to even use now that its bearer isnt a Warforged.

An Incarnate Warforged is still a Warforged.

[CIDE]

There's a precedent for components working in fleshy types with the Renegade Mastermaker prestige class. Granted, in that case the components are synthetic with fleshy bits around it. I have no idea if the components would become fleshy with the rest of the warforged or if they stay synthetic. That gets into a weird territory there.

Edit: Annnddd...how would components interact with clone/ressurection? They seem to lack the clause about being a part ofhte body to the same extent as grafts.