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Kurald Galain
2007-09-21, 02:33 AM
This came up in another thread, and it's something I'm rather curious about.

Dice cheating. As most people are aware, it is more or less possible to have a d6 come up the way you want it, most of the time. This is probably a lot harder with several d6, or with a d20. I'm specifically not talking about DMs fudging dice rolls.

Have people seen players do this? What happened? How did the DM deal with it?

I recall one player, during a board game, who was throwing his d6 in a peculiar way (balancing them carefully on his hand, then dropping them on the table, apparently making them rotate 180 degrees exactly once). But we told him to stop that and he did, so it's not such a big story.

Skjaldbakka
2007-09-21, 02:36 AM
Most methods of fixing dice rolls are A) Easy to spot and B) difficult to do with multiple dice at one time. Since cheaters are by definition lazy, they are much more likely to lie about their rolls then try to helicopter their dice.

Studoku
2007-09-21, 02:41 AM
The most common way I've seen is rolling the dice so it lands on the floor, being the first person to see it, lie about the roll and acidentally kick the dice. That was until we started the 'any die on the floor counts as a one' rule.

Skjaldbakka
2007-09-21, 02:44 AM
I don't count any dice that land on the floor. If there is a 'problem' player in my group, I require that all dice rolls be witnessed by another player. Of course, I currently have enough of a player base to just throw out problem players, but I like to give them a second chance.

But never a 3rd.

Zincorium
2007-09-21, 02:53 AM
The simple answer I've used is to tell them "I know you're good enough that you could, if you chose, make that dice land just like you want to. Roll using a cup so I don't have to worry about whether you are."

Just enough sugar with the vinegar to keep it from being an insult, and it makes whether they have been a non-issue.

Hazkali
2007-09-21, 04:01 AM
I recall one player, during a board game, who was throwing his d6 in a peculiar way (balancing them carefully on his hand, then dropping them on the table, apparently making them rotate 180 degrees exactly once). But we told him to stop that and he did, so it's not such a big story.


I'd do the same. Anything like that is very easy to spot, and is, in my house at least, cheating. When you roll, you have to roll, not just flip the die like a coin!

That being said, I do know of a dice company that sells some nice d6's and d20's with either a 6 or a 20 replacing the 1...no need to "cheat" when your chance of a crit is doubled!

Swooper
2007-09-21, 04:37 AM
I've been playing with the same three people for about... uh, eight(?) years, and we've never had anything like that. Assuming, of course, that the guy who manages to roll a set of stats with nothing below 15 pretty consistently is just stupidly lucky.

Reinboom
2007-09-21, 06:02 AM
The easiest dice to set are multiple d6s. With their flat surfaces all about, you use them to prevent they don't roll in a single direction to roll them, by pushing them together in the roll. Since they won't roll into each other, it prevents certain numbers (say a 1) from ever showing. This is the most efficient way to cheat with d6 without making it obvious. D6s are also the 2nd easiest to weight after the d4, given that all 'low' numbers are together, they can easily be weighted by just setting them somewhere for a long time with direct application of a type of heat (the sun).
I hate d6.

For everyone in this house, or anyone I spot doing either of the above, I have them roll in a cup. Those in this house understood perfectly, and agreed, but only because they also knew I know they knew how.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-21, 07:56 AM
That was until we started the 'any die on the floor counts as a one' rule.
Bit unfair for those that quite honestly have the dice accidentally roll of the table. Why not simply re-roll dice that land on the floor?

Telonius
2007-09-21, 08:24 AM
I'd want to handle it the same way I saw it handled in a Las Vegas casino.

Unfortunately I don't have access to 7-foot security officers, so I'd require a reroll and dice cup if it ever came up.

Person_Man
2007-09-21, 09:34 AM
Use a dice cup, like Yahtzee.

Or play Amber diceless roleplaying.

Or play with people over the age of 14.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-21, 11:04 AM
Or play with people over the age of 14.

...physically, or mentally?

Raolin_Fenix
2007-09-21, 11:19 AM
Make them reroll any dice you don't see. Examine the dice they're using prior to the game if you think there's a problem, but try to do it while the player isn't there. Dock their XP if they roll too well too consistently -- using the excuse, "Well, the CR level of this encounter doesn't take into account your phenomenal luck, so I had to factor in the fact that you'd be rolling nothing below a 15. That dropped it from a CR-7 encounter to CR-4."

But remember, they're not always cheating (at least not intentionally). Some dice are just naturally weighted differently. My first time playing, I played with this freaking transparent red d20 that rolled a 20 one time in ten instead of the usual one time in twenty... and the other nine times, it never got above a five. Exceptions were very rare. I went through the entire first ten months or so with that d20. My bad luck was legendary. Then I got a new d20, which rolled somewhat more in the middle, but extremely weighted toward the higher end. I played for two weeks with that d20 before my DM started giving me the death look. Once I caught on, I started switching between the d20's -- use the crappy one to roll my miss chance when I'm invisible, since a low roll meant they missed; use the good one to roll my attack. I justified it by saying, "I went through ten months with a d20 that never rolled above a 5! I deserve this! IT'S KARMA!"

Heh. He actually humored me for a while. I did it for a couple of sessions, to restore my morale, and then cut it out. :smallbiggrin:

Lord Tataraus
2007-09-21, 11:29 AM
I handle it subliminally. I can usually see if some one in my group cheats. I just ask them, are you sure that's what you got? They say yes and I inspect them a bit and let it slide. After the first time, they usually don't do it again, but if they do its a reroll or whatever I say it is.

Darrin
2007-09-21, 12:17 PM
The Munchkin's Guide to Power Gaming has a full chapter on dice cheating, I think. The one I remember was rolling on an uneven surface, such as an open book, so that if you saw you didn't want the roll, you could claim "cocked die" and then reroll.

"Practice rolls" - roll a bunch of times, claim you are "practicing", "training", trying to weed out bad rolls, or just looking for a "hot" die. Get the rest of the players used to you doing this all the time, and when you get the result you want, then you claim, "Oh, well that was for real."

You could also make sure your dice are hard to read, either by not filling in the numbers or picking colors with very low contrast, such as white numbers on a yellow die. Those gawdawful speckled Chessex dice with the horrendously bad color mixtures were good for this, with black or red numbers on black, red, orange, blue, etc. speckles. Ugliest dice I have *EVER* seen, extremely hard to read, but if no one else can read them either, you can just quickly palm the die and announce you rolled whatever you like.

Crazy_Uncle_Doug
2007-09-21, 12:24 PM
Use a dice cup, like Yahtzee.

Or play Amber diceless roleplaying.

Or play with people over the age of 14.

No guarantee. I played Warhammer FRP with several guys. One of the players had the "Swift Collect" technique of cheating. He'd roll the dice, his hand would flash as soon as they settled and whaddya know! He'd rolled what he needed! Since he, in general, was the only guy who'd seen what he'd rolled, he could report what he liked.

And he was in his twenties. Some people never grow out of cheating.

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-09-21, 01:50 PM
In my circle of friends, "He cheats at D&D" is a phrase used only to describe the most pathetic, insecure-yet-arrogant, over-compensating fools.

NerfTW
2007-09-21, 03:08 PM
The Munchkin's Guide to Power Gaming has a full chapter on dice cheating, I think. The one I remember was rolling on an uneven surface, such as an open book, so that if you saw you didn't want the roll, you could claim "cocked die" and then reroll.

"Practice rolls" - roll a bunch of times, claim you are "practicing", "training", trying to weed out bad rolls, or just looking for a "hot" die. Get the rest of the players used to you doing this all the time, and when you get the result you want, then you claim, "Oh, well that was for real."

You could also make sure your dice are hard to read, either by not filling in the numbers or picking colors with very low contrast, such as white numbers on a yellow die. Those gawdawful speckled Chessex dice with the horrendously bad color mixtures were good for this, with black or red numbers on black, red, orange, blue, etc. speckles. Ugliest dice I have *EVER* seen, extremely hard to read, but if no one else can read them either, you can just quickly palm the die and announce you rolled whatever you like.

I can't imagine anyone over the age of six who wouldn't say "You have to declare your "real" roll before you roll it.". If you fall for the "practice rolls", your players might as well try anything they want with you, because you won't notice.

Honestly, we used to shout that playing Candyland.

I'd roll in a cup anyways, it's easier and the die don't go flying everywhere.

Starsinger
2007-09-21, 03:20 PM
Honestly, we used to shout that playing Candyland.


I haven't played in a while.. but I'm pretty sure you don't roll dice in Candyland.. I thought you drew cards from a deck.

Crazy_Uncle_Doug
2007-09-21, 03:25 PM
"That wasn't my real card, that was a practice card!"

Or, my favorite as played by my niece: Pick two cards, look at them, then declare the better card to be the one you were "supposed" to pick.

Chronos
2007-09-21, 03:28 PM
But remember, they're not always cheating (at least not intentionally). Some dice are just naturally weighted differently.Tell me about it. My first d20 has only ever rolled five 20s. Three were in a marathon session of hundreds of rolls, just to verify that it was biased, and one of them was on a (second edition) proficiency check (where high rolls were bad).

Kurald Galain
2007-09-21, 03:32 PM
"Practice rolls" - roll a bunch of times, claim you are "practicing", "training", trying to weed out bad rolls,

I don't know any DM who wouldn't veto that on grounds of (1) stalling and (2) being an idiot for no good reason.

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-21, 03:52 PM
One of my friends went for all of these consistantly, especially just rolling into a book that was conveniently cocked so only he could see it. His character was poorly built and there wasn't much combat in that campaign so we all just rolled our eyes and let him take the extra 11 damage with his greatbow criticals. (He took a Scout into Order of the Bow Initiate so it wasn't that big a deal, just annoying. Our DM approached him about it a couple of times, but he still wondered why he never got a magic bow. Or arrows.)

Crow
2007-09-21, 03:55 PM
Tell me about it. My first d20 has only ever rolled five 20s. Three were in a marathon session of hundreds of rolls, just to verify that it was biased, and one of them was on a (second edition) proficiency check (where high rolls were bad).

Our group used to play Shadowrun. One of our players has these wooden dice that we swear are cursed. He would consistently drop 16 dice and come out with just one "6", and a whole boatload of "1"s and "2"s, if that. No matter how much we implore him, he refuses to give up these dice for some reason.

The best dice we had came from a dollar store. They were Red, White, and Green, and if you grabbed a couple "Mexi-Dice" for the session, you could almost guarantee you'd be making running headshots in pouring rain at over 100 yards on a routine basis.

Well, everyone but our friend with the wooden dice anyways. I swear those Mexi-dice made for some good gaming. Thanks for the topic, OP. This brought back some good memories.

RTGoodman
2007-09-21, 04:03 PM
That being said, I do know of a dice company that sells some nice d6's and d20's with either a 6 or a 20 replacing the 1...no need to "cheat" when your chance of a crit is doubled!

See, that's sort of stupid. If I were going to make "cheat dice" (and I wouldn't because that seems pathetic to me) I'd definitely leave the 1 on it (since eventually people are going to notice that you've NEVER rolled a nat 1). Rather, I'd replace something else with another 20, probably like the 3 or something. That is, something that no one is gonna notice that you never roll.

Not that I advocate cheating, it's just common sense that if you're going to do something like that, do it intelligently.

manda_babylon
2007-09-24, 10:54 AM
See, that's sort of stupid. If I were going to make "cheat dice" (and I wouldn't because that seems pathetic to me) I'd definitely leave the 1 on it (since eventually people are going to notice that you've NEVER rolled a nat 1). Rather, I'd replace something else with another 20, probably like the 3 or something. That is, something that no one is gonna notice that you never roll.

Not that I advocate cheating, it's just common sense that if you're going to do something like that, do it intelligently.

I actually have a set like that. [I don't use them to play with, though I do use one of them while GMing - the loser dice]

The set comes with one d20 with two 20s and no 1, one D20 that is normal, one d6 that has two 6s and no 1, one d6 that has two 1s and no 6, one d6 that is normal, and I think one d10 with two 10s and no 1, and a d10 that's normal.

I think the way these are meant to be used is that you use the "good" cheat dice until someone notices. Then, you use the "loser" cheat dice so that you roll badly, hopefully convincing the others you aren't cheating. And if the GM asks to see the dice? You can show him/her the normal one. I do agree that it's somewhat tricky to actually execute.

The only one of these dice I've ever used in a game is the d6 with two 1s - I was GMing, and I was afraid what was supposed to be a really simple encounter would kill a player character that I didn't want to die then, so I rolled rapier damage with the cheat.

However, once our group's resident cheater [she has been caught using "spin-down" dice on multiple occasions, was a terrific "floor roller," and I suspect is currently using a weighted d20] left her dice bag at home and I told her to pick one out of my good pocket [my bag has two pockets - I keep my playing dice in one side and my cheat dice and Vampire dice in the other]. What did she wind up using? The d20 with no 1 on it. ...Honestly, cheating at role playing is the stupidest thing I can imagine.

John Campbell
2007-09-24, 02:32 PM
I've played with a guy who made a habit of rolling, cupping his hand over the dice when reading them, then scooping them up immediately. I'm not sure that he was reading results that he hadn't actually rolled, but... given that I have seen him rolling d% the old-fashioned way, with a pair of differently colored standard d10s, and reading whichever was higher as the tens digit - several consecutive rolls, and he switched digits at least twice - I'm not giving him much benefit of the doubt. And just to make it really stupid, he was pulling the digit-swapping trick when rolling against tables where higher results weren't necessarily better.

(I also roll d% the old-fashioned way, incidentally - my dice all predate those new-fangled tens-digit d10s, and I haven't felt the need to buy new ones - but I've told the DM that my grey one is always the tens digit and my yellow one is always the ones.)

I also DMed for a guy who, I'm pretty sure, rolled his character with weighted d6es. I watched him roll, and he rolled three 18s and no stat below 16. I let it slide - this was 2nd edition, where stats weren't as big a thing anyway - but I didn't cut him any slack at all in play. The character eventually got in a fight with the party cleric, who killed him, to the general approval of the rest of the group, who'd gotten sick of his grandstanding, attempts to hog the spotlight, and general bragging about how awesome he was, and the player quit the group.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-24, 02:37 PM
Our group used to play Shadowrun. One of our players has these wooden dice that we swear are cursed. He would consistently drop 16 dice and come out with just one "6", and a whole boatload of "1"s and "2"s, if that. No matter how much we implore him, he refuses to give up these dice for some reason.

Wood is not a very evenly distributed material, and his dice are probably actually weighted in favor of those 1s and 2s.

wumpus
2007-09-24, 08:40 PM
I actually have a set like that. [I don't use them to play with, though I do use one of them while GMing - the loser dice]

The set comes with one d20 with two 20s and no 1, one D20 that is normal, one d6 that has two 6s and no 1, one d6 that has two 1s and no 6, one d6 that is normal, and I think one d10 with two 10s and no 1, and a d10 that's normal.

I think the way these are meant to be used is that you use the "good" cheat dice until someone notices. Then, you use the "loser" cheat dice so that you roll badly, hopefully convincing the others you aren't cheating. And if the GM asks to see the dice? You can show him/her the normal one. I do agree that it's somewhat tricky to actually execute.

The only one of these dice I've ever used in a game is the d6 with two 1s - I was GMing, and I was afraid what was supposed to be a really simple encounter would kill a player character that I didn't want to die then, so I rolled rapier damage with the cheat.

However, once our group's resident cheater [she has been caught using "spin-down" dice on multiple occasions, was a terrific "floor roller," and I suspect is currently using a weighted d20] left her dice bag at home and I told her to pick one out of my good pocket [my bag has two pockets - I keep my playing dice in one side and my cheat dice and Vampire dice in the other]. What did she wind up using? The d20 with no 1 on it. ...Honestly, cheating at role playing is the stupidest thing I can imagine.

This looks like the perfect setup for a D&D motivation poster. Scene: one d20 - all sides showing "21" Text: go ahead and try to outroll the DM.

DraPrime
2007-09-24, 09:14 PM
I know someone who bought weighted dice. When he rolled 6 about 10 times in a row the DM took the dice and used them for her own needs. I also once tried to magnetize my dice by attaching some steel dust to the bottom of the d6, and then holding a powerful magnet under the table. Sadly, it didn't work, because the DM got real curious when the die shot across the table and then just stopped in the middle.

de-trick
2007-09-24, 09:29 PM
i seen 2 types of cheating but same thing almost

1st) rolling on a book and moving your knee to roll the dice after you normally roll
2nd)with a box and knee trick too, but sides cover from on lookers
I guess they think
If I dont get space on the able im goint to win

Generic PC
2007-09-24, 09:58 PM
I had a player once who rolled with his Homemade dice. They were actually weighted to 3's. ALL of them. even his d20, was somehow weighted to the three. We actually had a marathon where out of 100 rolls, all of his dice came up 3 (at the same time) nearly 14 times. He had a d20, d12, 10, d8, d6, d4. And an oddball d7, but we didnt know how, and didnt really care.

The_Werebear
2007-09-25, 01:41 AM
Hooo, boy.

I had a guy like this. He about defined munchkin. When he discovered his build wasn't as powerful as he wanted, he resorted to rolling behind his laptop screen. I let it slide, simply because he was so ineffective that it took good rolls to make up for it. I mean, even with the cheating I managed to kill one of his characters, so