Ways to fix the coffee-lock by fixing the Sorcerer's Sorcery point issue?

[Citadel97501]

Hello all, I have been noticing some issues and complaints with the non-multi-classed warlock namely that they don't get enough spell slots which I can see as being an issue due to the numbers of encounters per day most DM's seem to prefer.

Unfortunately one of the primary fixes for this eventually morphs into the coffee-lock, which fixes the problem through abusing a loose mechanic namely the Aspect of the moon and the ability for sorcerers to convert sorcery points into spell slots. So I was thinking perhaps we could simply fix the real source of the issue IE Sorcerers.

My simple suggestion that would likely need some play-testing would be to simply limit the number of extra spell slot levels you can generate through sorcery points to your total level. So for example, at level 5 (2 warlock, 3 sorcerer) you can create 1 x extra level 1 spell slot, and 1 x level 2 spell slot. This would allow the Coffee Lock in question to have 5 1st level spell slots, and 3 level 2 spell slots, and the expected 2 warlock slots of level 1. This would keep the high amount of spell recovery without being

Level 5: 3 Sorcery Points for Meta-Magic, 5 x 1st levels, 3 2nd levels, and 2 level 1 warlock slots...This only takes 4 hours to regenerate, as your basically gaining 2 sorcery points per hour of rest, 5 of which you spend to create spell slots.

So here are 3 coffee locks that seem to be different variations using this rule change. I am not doing full break downs just by spell slot and recovery time, basically it just works better to have

Fast Recharge
-13 Warlock, 7 Sorcerer: 7 sorcery points, 4 x 1st levels, 3 x 2nd levels, 3 x 3rd level slots, 2 x 4th level spell slot, and 2 level 5 spell slots, 1 x level 6 Mystic Arcanum, 1 x level 7 mystic arcanum, and of course 3 level 5 warlock slots.
-5 hours to completely recharge...all slots & sorcery points from completely empty, except for Mystic Arcanum.

Balanced Caster
9 Warlock, 11 Sorcerer: 11 sorcery points, 4 x 1st level slots, 3 x 2nd level slots, 3 x 3rd level slots, 3 x 4th level slots, 2 x level 5 slots, 1 level 6 slot, & 2 x level 5 Warlock slots.
-1 long rest, and 1 short rest for 9 hours total.

Absolute Caster
-17 Sorcerer, 3 Warlock: 4 x level 1's, 3 x level 2's, 3 x 3rd level slots, 4 x 4th level slots , 4 x 5 level slots, 1 x level 6, 1 x level 7, 1 x level 8, 1 x level 9 slot, and of course 2 level 2 warlock slots.
-This build doesn't regenerate spell slots anywhere as fast, and its actually going to take 1 long rest, and 2 short rests 10 hours.

[Ganymede]

Why would you do all that when you can simply change spell points so they are used to replace expended spell slots as opposed to creating new spell slots?

[Tvtyrant]

Or just don't play with the intention of breaking the game? Coffeelock is very deliberate, you can't accidentally exploit it.

[XmonkTad]

Or just don't play with the intention of breaking the game? Coffeelock is very deliberate, you can't accidentally exploit it.

This. I wouldn't try and add any sorts of mechanics that would require coffeelock behavior just to make the class playable. Mixing sorcerer and warlock is already plenty strong, and adding in coffee should be done if, and only if, the DM wants it.

Also, keep in mind that a lot of the things other people are concerned about stems from DMs having 1-2 tough encounters so that the warlock feels outclassed due to not being able to maximally benefit from its short rest recharge. So just don't do that and you won't a fix, much less a coffee-based one.

[Vogie]

Yeah - I have no problems with Sorlocks who crack their unused spell slots into spell points, in the same way I was excited about the UA Healing Elixir spell for Warlocks - It makes it feel like they aren't wasting things. I'm not even mad if they choose to forgo sleep and battle exhaustion to store up some larger nova potential the following day. It's just the mental gymnastics of "I'm not long resting, I'm short resting over and over, all the time" that breaks it down into a gamebreaking cheese.

[spankherbooty]

Why would you do all that when you can simply change spell points so they are used to replace expended spell slots as opposed to creating new spell slots?

That might impact regular, lower-level sorcerers from creating, say 5th level slots at 7th level (when they normally wouldn't have them).

I think the easiest solution is just to have Font of Magic created slots disappear after a short rest.

[Ganymede]

That might impact regular, lower-level sorcerers from creating, say 5th level slots at 7th level (when they normally wouldn't have them)

I don't follow. How would that happen?

[Nifft]

Why would you do all that when you can simply change spell points so they are used to replace expended spell slots as opposed to creating new spell slots?

Yeah that's one solid mechanical fix, but it runs into the problem that (at a few levels) a Sorcerer can create a higher-level slot than she can cast.

The other mechanical fix is to allow spellcasting directly from Sorcery Points, so you don't create a slot to use later -- you create a slot to use immediately, and that slot never sticks around to stack forever.

Either way you still get benefit from Sorclock since you can dump Pact Magic slots into Sorcery Points when you start a short rest.

[Tetrasodium]

The problem with the scorlock is not just the "totally obvious made for the GM's girlfriend style pact magic's short rest recovery+flexible casting. Given that both are level one core abilities, it's an abject failure from wotc to sanity check things

Invocations are another big one & it took them somewhere around 4-5 years to even begin errata'ing "that is obviously not the intent" when they declared that you need that many warlock not character levels to take a level restricted invocation. Back in 3.5 there were a lot of classes that got bonus feats (fighters/wizards/probably others). a lot of those wizard bonus feats are either missing entirely (ie the semi pita craft magic $thing line), meanwhile some others were literally turned into warlock invocations. The invocations themselves are often absurd & obviously not sanity checked against how warlock & other features work as written.... Darkness spell? The drow who casts it racially from L5 on explicitly can't see through it with their superior darkvision per the spell description on phb230... no the human scorlock with devils sight completely ignores it and every other magic/nonmagic darkness.

The crowning problem with scorlock however is:
a heavy crossbow deals 1d10+dex with a range of 100/400, but that damage is nonmagical piercing damage & requires ammunition. It also has the loading property so you can only fire it 1x/round no matter how many attacks you have.
The Feat (Remember that those are optional & wotc likes to remind everyone that at every chance) "Crossbow expert" will allow the crossbow user to ignore the loading property on that crossbow expert in order to make use of their class' extra attack ability. at fighter level 5, 11, & 20 a Fighter gets their second, third, & fourth attack so combined with an optional feat could deal 1d10+dex on each of their attacks. That is where things fall apart & glaring problems become obvious however since the 120' range eldritch blast scales by character level giving them 1d10 magical force damage per bolt. At character levels 5, 11, & 17 a scorlock gains their second third & fourth bolt with the fourth bolt coming 130,000 exp/3 full levels sooner than the single class fighter who needed to take an optional feat and take all those levels in fighter in order to get the extra attack scaling.

The d10+dex vrs d10 force might seem to even things out sure but it does not. The scorlock does not need to wonder if feats are allowed because their bonus feats are class features that are [url="http://www.cc.com/video-clips/b1vw6f/futurama-leela-s-oz"]unique but virtually identical[/i] invocations. You get two of those at warlock 2 allowing the scorlock to take agonizing blast to add charisma to each blast from eldritch blast giving them 1d10+cha 1-4x/round & the number of creatures immune to/resistant to force is one. Lets assume they don't want devils sight or plan to drop a full 5 levels into warlock for a third invocation, they can add repelling blast to knock an opponent back 10' for each of those 1-4 blasts due to being worded "when you hit with eldritch blast". Grasp of hadar is pull but worded "once on each of your turns when you hit", so WotC obviously sees the problem with a cantrip able to outclass the ability to move opponents around (those tend to have a size limit among other things like not dealing d10+stat *$numblasts) but decided not to errata it, that's thew kind of thing you'd expect from a class created by your gm for his girlfriend wtg wotc!

Every time someone from wotc utters words about how classes get a sanity check for interactions, remember the scorlock level 1/1 deep multiplicative interactions.

I once complained to Adventure eague's(Bold because it's an important distinction) community contact about the effects of multiple repelling agonizing blast players at a table & got this reply:



Players love to use their new shiny toys, especially if they believe that it will give them "I win" buttons. That said, there are a couple options:

- talk to them about how this is frustrating for you as a DM. Remember that DMs are players too!
- use monsters that cannot be shoved like this - incorporeal creatures are a great option, as are creatures that are significantly large (this would take narrative explanation, but really... a magic blast from a level 10 character may not be powerful enough to move a 15'x15' creature)
- use weather effects, terrain, and cover to provide cover or advantage/ disadvantage
- use creatures that can teleport

As the characters level up it's VERY possible for the intelligent enemies to upgrade their tactics. Playing against the characters is a valid option, just be careful to limit yourself to challenging them and I encourage you to refrain from killing them.

If you are at all familiar with Adventure League's rules, this should have multiple points of what the bleepity bleep! One of those rules is that house rules are strictly forbidden. Incorporeal creatures are not immune to being moved around in 5e even though they may have been in 3.5. The helmed horror might have the distinction of being the only force immune creature, but repelling blast only requires that you hit rather than deal damage & technically the scorlock could still push it around 10/20/30/40 feet with repelling blast. The advice on how larger creatures might not get moved or how a creature sufficiently high in CR might be too powerful for a level 10 PC to move it with repelling blast, all of those suggestions would be forbidden houserules being suggested by the adventure league community contact email. Weather effects? sure blinding everyone is acceptable sometimes, but it's unreasonable to punish the rest of the table because of GM's girlfriend favoritism levels of failed sanity checking. Teleporting creatures?... there are some yes, burrowing too, "sorry PC's, the critter is underground again, maybe hold action to shoot it together when it comes up somewhere every round?" is beyond ridiculous as a solution and more importantly also restricted under AL's rules on substituting monsters to the point that I'm not sure there would be very many (if any) situations where it would be clearly legal.

With multiple settings supposedly on their way in 2019 they could keep the wtf phb level cheese & simply add a note in setting books saying that repelling blast works once/turn & eldritch blast is changed as follows in $setting without having to make too many changes to the phb, but that might be too easy.

[Lombra]

Honestly, the thread could've stopped at the second reply.

[TheMoxiousOne]

This may be a silly question for a Sorcerer player, but what makes the coffee in the coffee-lock title? Not sure what mechanic/feature/interaction is giving the title. A link for research would be amazing, as google didn't yield too much on my ancient phone

[Nifft]

This may be a silly question for a Sorcerer player, but what makes the coffee in the coffee-lock title? Not sure what mechanic/feature/interaction is giving the title. A link for research would be amazing, as google didn't yield too much on my ancient phone

Coffee-lock never sleeps.

They never take a Long rest, so their spell slots never get reset.

This allows them to refresh Warlock slots, convert those slots into Sorcery points, and those Sorcery points into Sorcerer slots -- with no limit on the number of Sorcerer slots except how much downtime they are allowed.

[solidork]

This may be a silly question for a Sorcerer player, but what makes the coffee in the coffee-lock title? Not sure what mechanic/feature/interaction is giving the title. A link for research would be amazing, as google didn't yield too much on my ancient phone

It's a joke about how they don't need to sleep. They take a bunch of short rests instead of taking a long rest.

[Citan]

Why would you do all that when you can simply change spell points so they are used to replace expended spell slots as opposed to creating new spell slots?


Or just don't play with the intention of breaking the game? Coffeelock is very deliberate, you can't accidentally exploit it.

This is enough to make thread "solved" imo. ^^


The problem with the scorlock is not just the "totally obvious made for the GM's girlfriend style pact magic's short rest recovery+flexible casting. Given that both are level one core abilities, it's an abject failure from wotc to sanity check things

I'm afraid it's your view that needs a check.:smalltongue:
Flexible casting requires 2 levels of Sorcerer. And you need 2 spell points for a 1st level slot.
With Warlock 1 and a rigourous DM, that means an extra slot for the day... But as a 4th level Sorcerer you would have that and more already.
With Warlock 2 and a rigorous DM, that means 2 extra slots for the day. Pretty nice but you still don't get 2nd level spells.

With a "do what you want DM" (read: you could chain 8 or 9 short rests), the best you can "break" if you keep even dual-class would be permanent Comprehend Languages or "Magic Missile cantrip" for a fight. Powerful, but no more.

If you go Sorcerer main and Warlock secondary, and do something like for example Sorcerer 5 / Warlock 3, it means you can make 2*1st level slots on a short rest or 1*2nd level: at the time, your friends have been playing with Polymorph or Wall of Fire.
Having a high amount of 1st and 2nd level spells may probably trivialize many kind of encounters. But as far as fight goes, action economy is usually enough to keep things in check barring some cornercases. So the main risk imo is that coffeelocking may allow the party to spare many other resources they would normally spend on utility/healing and that may lead DM to crank up encounters a bit.

Best way to deal with that is simply have a frank talk with clear playrules set at session 0. ;) (don't know how that works in AL though)

As for Agonizing Blast... Yeah, it's powerful, but mostly on the latter half of the game, which means much much time during which you will be waiting for the 8th and 9th level spells your friendly caster allies have been playing with since several sessions ago. Seems a fair trade to me.

[RedMage125]

There's always the "decaf coffeelock".

Which to be an elf (probably drow for the cha bonus), and every night do your 4 hour trance (which counts as a long rest, as per errata), and then spend 4 hours exchanging warlock spell slots for sorcery points, and taking short rests while the rest of the party sleeps.

This version requires less shenanigans, and doesn't require Aspect of the Moon invocation.

It also isn't generating near-infinite sorcery points, because everything from the previous day resets on a long rest.

[Ganymede]

There's always the "decaf coffeelock".

Which to be an elf (probably drow for the cha bonus), and every night do your 4 hour trance (which counts as a long rest, as per errata), and then spend 4 hours exchanging warlock spell slots for sorcery points, and taking short rests while the rest of the party sleeps

That also requires shenannegins/DM buy-in because the DM can say "you just rested for a solid eight hours. That's one rest."

[RedMage125]

That also requires shenannegins/DM buy-in because the DM can say "you just rested for a solid eight hours. That's one rest."

I said LESS shenanigans. Elves, as per errata, get their Long Rest from a 4 hour trance. If he isn't trancing, and he's up for 4 hours (less than 8), it isn't "one long rest". It DOES require some buy-in to "4 short rests" though. But you could always do something useful once an hour. Patrol the campsite, gather more firewood, etc. Spend 10 minutes doing that, with an hour of rest in between, and it seems pretty concrete.

Also, it leaves a finite amount of extra sorcery points he could accumulate.

[JackPhoenix]

Invocations are another big one & it took them somewhere around 4-5 years to even begin errata'ing "that is obviously not the intent" when they declared that you need that many warlock not character levels to take a level restricted invocation.

4-5 years to errata invocation? That's weird, considering that 5e isn't even out for 5 years NOW, and that was in the very first errata.

[Ganymede]

I said LESS shenanigans. Elves, as per errata, get their Long Rest from a 4 hour trance. If he isn't trancing, and he's up for 4 hours (less than 8), it isn't "one long rest". It DOES require some buy-in to "4 short rests" though. But you could always do something useful once an hour. Patrol the campsite, gather more firewood, etc. Spend 10 minutes doing that, with an hour of rest in between, and it seems pretty concrete.


An eight hour block of time where an elf spends four hours trancing and four hours chillaxin' is indeed one long rest. He could cut it short, sure, but that's not the presented scenario: an eight hour block of down time.

[Tetrasodium]

4-5 years to errata invocation? That's weird, considering that 5e isn't even out for 5 years NOW, and that was in the very first errata.

For some reason I thought that was one of the new ones in the errata last month (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/errata-november-2018). You are right on that, however not so much on the isn't out bit. wikipedia lists 5e as 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons) & there was a lengthy playtest starting around 2012 into 2013.


This is enough to make thread "solved" imo. ^^


I'm afraid it's your view that needs a check.:smalltongue:
Flexible casting requires 2 levels of Sorcerer. And you need 2 spell points for a 1st level slot.
With Warlock 1 and a rigourous DM, that means an extra slot for the day... But as a 4th level Sorcerer you would have that and more already.
With Warlock 2 and a rigorous DM, that means 2 extra slots for the day. Pretty nice but you still don't get 2nd level spells.

With a "do what you want DM" (read: you could chain 8 or 9 short rests), the best you can "break" if you keep even dual-class would be permanent Comprehend Languages or "Magic Missile cantrip" for a fight. Powerful, but no more.

If you go Sorcerer main and Warlock secondary, and do something like for example Sorcerer 5 / Warlock 3, it means you can make 2*1st level slots on a short rest or 1*2nd level: at the time, your friends have been playing with Polymorph or Wall of Fire.
Having a high amount of 1st and 2nd level spells may probably trivialize many kind of encounters. But as far as fight goes, action economy is usually enough to keep things in check barring some cornercases. So the main risk imo is that coffeelocking may allow the party to spare many other resources they would normally spend on utility/healing and that may lead DM to crank up encounters a bit.

Best way to deal with that is simply have a frank talk with clear playrules set at session 0. ;) (don't know how that works in AL though)

As for Agonizing Blast... Yeah, it's powerful, but mostly on the latter half of the game, which means much much time during which you will be waiting for the 8th and 9th level spells your friendly caster allies have been playing with since several sessions ago. Seems a fair trade to me.


There is a reason why I went into the absolute failure at sanity checking in other areas of scorlok, the vast majority of my post goes into it. Based on your reality check post it seems like you may be aware of some of those reasons.

[JackPhoenix]

You are right on that, however not so much on the isn't out bit. wikipedia lists 5e as 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons) & there was a lengthy playtest starting around 2012 into 2013.

2014 + 5 = 2019. We aren't there yet.

And considering how often things changed during playtest, that hardly counts. Playtest warlock was different from the final version.

[RedMage125]

2014 + 5 = 2019. We aren't there yet.

You weren't counting 2014 itself. 5e came out mid-summer, did it not? I believe it was out by August, if not a little before (counting from the Starter Set, not all 3 "Core" books, since those also came out at different times). I know that I bought the Starter Set in August. So ALL of 2015, 2016, 2017, and 2018, and half of 2014. 4 1/2 years if you want to be precise, but there have BEEN 5 calendar years in which 5e has been a published thing.

[Daphne]

2014 + 5 = 2019. We aren't there yet.

And considering how often things changed during playtest, that hardly counts. Playtest warlock was different from the final version.

Also, both the Sorcerer and the Warlock were not in the open playtest after the first draft.

[Keravath]

I'll also add that there is a very simple fix to the entire "coffee lock" question. The DM just says No. :). The rules specifically allow the DM to run a game however they wish and if the rules loop holes regarding short rests, long rests, spell points and cycling short rest spells into spell points to purchase additional spell slots causes a DM any sort of concern they can just say no and play continues without this feature.

You don't need to change a character class in substantial ways to plug a loop hole when the loop hole requires the willing consent of both DM and players to be applied in the first place. People who have a problem with it, disallow it, folks running a different kind of game allow it since they don't have an issue with it.

[Citan]

For some reason I thought that was one of the new ones in the errata last month (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/errata-november-2018). You are right on that, however not so much on the isn't out bit. wikipedia lists 5e as 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons) & there was a lengthy playtest starting around 2012 into 2013.




There is a reason why I went into the absolute failure at sanity checking in other areas of scorlok, the vast majority of my post goes into it. Based on your reality check post it seems like you may be aware of some of those reasons.

You missed the point: the point is, "it's only game breaking up to extent the DM will allow it". Which can amount to "absolutely zero" except in social-heavy, urban-exclusive campaigns.

[Haldir]

Coffeelock is an intentional misreading of the rules, not an "exploit" but a cheat, plain and simple... Sure it's been said, I just want to say it again. The spell points are specifically mentioned as working with your Sorceror spells.

[XmonkTad]

Coffeelock is an intentional misreading of the rules, not an "exploit" but a cheat, plain and simple... Sure it's been said, I just want to say it again. The spell points are specifically mentioned as working with your Sorceror spells.

Factually incorrect.



Converting a Spell Slot to Sorcery Points: As a bonus action on your turn, you can expend one spell slot and gain a number of sorcery points equal to the slot's level.

[Haldir]

Factually incorrect.

Ok, cheater. It's in the sorceror's section, but cheaters gonna cheat.

[Nifft]

Ok, cheater. It's in the sorceror's section, but cheaters gonna cheat.

Spell slots are never class-specific, because of how multi-classing works.

Spells known / spells prepared -- those two things can be class-specific, and you certainly use the associated class spell attack / save DC for spells cast through a class -- which means pushing a class-neutral spell slot through a class-specific spell known / prepared.

[XmonkTad]

Ok, cheater. It's in the sorceror's section, but cheaters gonna cheat.

I mean, that's fine? It's in the sorcerer's section because it's a sorcerer class feature, not because the rules in that section exist only for the sorcerer. Don't take my word for it, here is crawford:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/05/12/covert-warlock-spell-slots-to-sorcery-points/
and
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/11/04/can-a-warlocksorcerer-covert-sorcery-points-to-warlock-spell-slots/
I fail to see how it's cheating, and in any event you are still factually wrong that the sorcerer section calls out Font of Magic for being sorcerer spell only. And none of this helps the OP's issue, which I still think is better solved with rule 0 than a game fix.

[Citan]

Coffeelock is an intentional misreading of the rules, not an "exploit" but a cheat, plain and simple... Sure it's been said, I just want to say it again. The spell points are specifically mentioned as working with your Sorceror spells.


Ok, cheater. It's in the sorceror's section, but cheaters gonna cheat.
Calling someone cheater is unnecessarily rude. And it's particularly dumb when he is right.

It is precisely because "coffeelocking" is RAW (well, if DM allows multiclass) that it can be a problem.
With a big emphasis on "can" because it still depends on several things, including how a DM would rule consecutive short rests, which is a blurry area. But also the Sorcerer/Warlock split, how big the party is, how they decide on taking short rests, the kind of campaign, the kind of environments, the time pressure they get on a quest, etc...

The one time I saw it really being kinda overpowered was in a one-shot with big focus on infiltration and social challenges, in a city. Being able to "spam" Subtle or Extend spells (Comprehend Languages, Disguise Self, Suggestion, Enhance Invisibility, Command, Silence, Longstrider, Detect Magic, etc) because you have no big pressure so you can pace yourself as you wish is really, *really* strong. (especially with Subtle tbh, even with cantrips like Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, Thaumaturgy, Minor Illusion, Create Bonfire etc). At first I was a bit dismayed. But when taking a few steps back and seeing the bigger picture... Everything that coffeelocking could amount to was, for the largest part, "avoiding skill checks or ensuring their success and sparing time in getting information and setting up plans". Which is very good. Which can certainly disturb your plans as a DM. Which certainly has the theorical potency to be game-breaking or campaign-derailing, *if you let free reins on players*. But the chance of that theory to become reality-concrete is low imo.

(Of course, saying all that in the frame of "play with friends". I don't play AL -not that I don't want to, but nothing in my city- so obviously coffeelocking may be much more troublesome to manage with strangers)

For anyone that wants to allow the multiclass but doesn't want to keep special track of that particular player's power, here is my houserule that works however often party may get short rests: "Warlock slots can only be converted into Sorcery Points to be used for metamagic, but not converted back into slots".
The obvious flaw of this is that you'd theorically need to keep track two separate pools of SP.
It worked well in the game I used this because my player told me "ok, I'll just always consider I always use short-rest slots as SP", which was the same as saying "I get all SP back on a short rest" which was fine by me since the SP max amount stayed more or less equal or inferior to the amount of points he could get most of the campaign. And I didn't bother checking either.
-> Mutual trust made this houserule very efficient. If not full trust, my idea is bad, don't use it. :)

[XmonkTad]

-> Mutual trust made this houserule very efficient. If not full trust, my idea is bad, don't use it. :)

I agree with this. I believe for AL there is some guidance somewhere stating that characters only level up after a long rest, which helps prevent truly excessive spell slot accumulation. Other than that, I don't think there is any rule in AL that prevents intra-session spell slot stacking.

[Tetrasodium]

You missed the point: the point is, "it's only game breaking up to extent the DM will allow it". Which can amount to "absolutely zero" except in social-heavy, urban-exclusive campaigns.

No I did not "miss" your point, I flat out reject it. Things like devils sight & repelling agonizing blast on a scorlock should not be problems that a GM needs to simply accept or houserule as not allowed due to someone at WotC seeming to deliberately craft sorcerer/warlock with the intention of meeting the goal of stereotypically fitting the mold of something built for the GM's girlfriend trope. When the need for characters to sleep got in the way of that quest for some GM wanting to play doctor with their girlfriend, aspect of the moon was added in xge to eliminate the need for sleep entirely by raw.

[Nifft]

something built for the GM's girlfriend trope. When the need for characters to sleep got in the way of that quest for some GM wanting to play doctor with their girlfriend

Coffeelock needs a fix, but this level of salt is unjustified.

[Tetrasodium]

Coffeelock needs a fix, but this level of salt is unjustified.

I disagree. Are you suggesting that it is reasonable for two levels of warlock to give a sorcerer the equivalent of a force damage charisma based crossbow expert feat heavy crossbowthat scales extra attack based on character level instead of class level and each of those attacks pushes back any sized creature it hits by 10 feet with no save on top of all the other slingshot benefits from those warlock levels like medium armor, the only means of getting the improved familiar feat in 5e, cha mod temp hp whenever they kill something, charisma based weapon attacks, ritual caster of unrestricted class spell lists, or any number of other options based on pact choice?

[Vogie]

I disagree. Are you suggesting that it is reasonable for two levels of warlock to give a sorcerer the equivalent of a force damage charisma based crossbow expert feat heavy crossbowthat scales extra attack based on character level instead of class level and each of those attacks pushes back any sized creature it hits by 10 feet with no save on top of all the other slingshot benefits from those warlock levels like medium armor, the only means of getting the improved familiar feat in 5e, cha mod temp hp whenever they kill something, charisma based weapon attacks, ritual caster of unrestricted class spell lists, or any number of other options based on pact choice?

By RAW, Yes. If you don't like multiclassing, don't multiclass.

Also you can't get the improved familiar or ritual casting until 3 levels of warlock (and they're based on 2 different pact boons, which you can't have), and you have both the Fiend & Hexblade 1st level abilities listed. Unless you meant the heal from Hexblade's curse, which is a heal (not THP) and only once per short rest. EB isn't a full crossbow expert feat because you still get disadvantage when shooting in melee range, nor get the ability to shoot as a bonus action.

So... you could be more wrong, but it'd take some effort

[Tetrasodium]

By RAW, Yes. If you don't like multiclassing, don't multiclass.

Also you can't get the improved familiar or ritual casting until 3 levels of warlock (and they're based on 2 different pact boons, which you can't have), and you have both the Fiend & Hexblade 1st level abilities listed. Unless you meant the heal from Hexblade's curse, which is a heal (not THP) and only once per short rest. EB isn't a full crossbow expert feat because you still get disadvantage when shooting in melee range, nor get the ability to shoot as a bonus action.

So... you could be more wrong, but it'd take some effort

I said or not and. That's part of the problem. scorcerer/warlock archtypes & warlock invocations seem to get very little if any sanity checking Those are all low level warlock pact abilities and there seems to be little if any attempt at sanity checking.
Compare college of swords three (bard) grants medium armor & scimitar. Meanwhile hexblade one grants medium armor, shields, and martial weapons.those different pacts are all options that you can shuffle with the different sorcerer archtypes & we should not pretend they exist in a vacuum when talking about scorlocks.

Eldritch blast isn't full crossbow expert no, but the fact that it's the only extra attack in the game that scales with character level rather than class level and has a 120 foot range and has an invocation that will push a freaking tarrasque, ancient great wyrm dragon, wraith, ghost, or just about anything else back 10' per blast rather invalidates the need for being within a range that would cause disadvantage to be an issue

[Vogie]

I said or not and. That's part of the problem. scorcerer/warlock archtypes & warlock invocations seem to get very little if any sanity checking Those are all low level warlock pact abilities and there seems to be little if any attempt at sanity checking.
Compare college of swords three (bard) grants medium armor & scimitar. Meanwhile hexblade one grants medium armor, shields, and martial weapons.those different pacts are all options that you can shuffle with the different sorcerer archtypes & we should not pretend they exist in a vacuum when talking about scorlocks.

Eldritch blast isn't full crossbow expert no, but the fact that it's the only extra attack in the game that scales with character level rather than class level and has a 120 foot range and has an invocation that will push a freaking tarrasque, ancient great wyrm dragon, wraith, ghost, or just about anything else back 10' per blast rather invalidates the need for being within a range that would cause disadvantage to be an issue

Thank you for your explanation that different classes are indeed different. It's a genuinely shocking revelation, I'm sure we'll all agree. Again, your problem seems to be with multiclassing, into Warlock specifically. So again, if you don't like that, don't play with it. Your second paragraph indicates you seem to be also mad about basic warlock mechanics that have been part of 5e since the inception in August of 2014.

Both Aspect of the Moon and The Hexblade Patron were released, as far as I can tell, on Feb 13, 2017 via UA, and we've been discussing ways to use them both ever since. The only difference between the UA and the release in XGtE is that Aspect of the Moon lost its "Prerequisite: The Archfey Patron" rider.

As delightfully long & ranty as your posts have been, they have nothing to do with the OP's ideas on how to adjust the sorcery point mechanic.

[Citadel97501]

Thank you Vogie, I appreciate it as this entire thread has kind of devolved into a complaint about the brokenness of Sorcerer and Aspect of the Moon instead of discussing the actual fix.

[Tetrasodium]

Thank you Vogie, I appreciate it as this entire thread has kind of devolved into a complaint about the brokenness of Sorcerer and Aspect of the Moon instead of discussing the actual fix.

The problem begins with the assumptions in the OP itself. It's a solution to a problem based on a faukty assumption & why we have the scorlock problem to begin with.

Hello all, I have been noticing some issues and complaints with the non-multi-classed warlock namely that they don't get enough spell slots which I can see as being an issue due to the numbers of encounters per day most DM's seem to prefer.

Unfortunately one of the primary fixes for this eventually morphs into the coffee-lock, which fixes the problem through abusing a loose mechanic namely the Aspect of the moon and the ability for sorcerers to convert sorcery points into spell slots. So I was thinking perhaps we could simply fix the real source of the issue IE Sorcerers.
warlocks get (better than) fighter scaling of extra attack with their 4th EB coming at 17 instead of 20. They get a charisma based force damage heavy crossbow that can push creatures it hits back 10' with no save and the ignore loading bit of crossbow expert feat that wold be needed for the nonmagic piercing damage heavy crossbow to scale like that. You ignore all of the things that warlocks get as class features and can get through invocations and make the assumption that single class warlock's problem is that it needs more of the sorcerer/wizard's cake with the coffeelock fix assumption. The warlock gets all those amazing invocations because they have limited spell slots.


My simple suggestion that would likely need some play-testing would be to simply limit the number of extra spell slot levels you can generate through sorcery points to your total level. So for example, at level 5 (2 warlock, 3 sorcerer) you can create 1 x extra level 1 spell slot, and 1 x level 2 spell slot. This would allow the Coffee Lock in question to have 5 1st level spell slots, and 3 level 2 spell slots, and the expected 2 warlock slots of level 1. This would keep the high amount of spell recovery without being

Your "simple suggestion" is based on a bad assumption & goes further by suggesting that warlocks nullify their limitation even easier. Take this bit from PHB101 "You have 2 sorcery points, and you gain m ore as you reach higher levels, as shown in the Sorcery Points column of the Sorcerer table. You can never have m ore sorcery points than shown on the table for your level. You regain all spent sorcery points when you finish a long rest."
the limitation on how many sorcery points you can have and how many spell slots of any given slot level you can have as a sorcerer level X is one of the only limitations. Your fix based on faulty assumptions suggests that the scorlock gain access to a number of spell slots that no class ever gets without needing to spend a bonus action to convert it points or a bonus action to convert points to a slot.

If a warlock wants to play a wizard or sorcerer, they should do that rather than making special modifications to sorcerer that makes sorcerer level X even better for multiclassed warlocks than a pure sorcerer.

As Vogie sarcastically said "Thank you for your explanation that different classes are indeed different. It's a genuinely shocking revelation". You seem to be under the assumption that the problem with warlocks is that they are not a sorcerer or a wizard & should get to be both a warlock and a sorcerer with reduced opportunity/action cost. The fact that you didn't even consider the possability of making your "solution" an invocation that would present it with some cost exemplifies that point

[DanyBallon]

I think the biggest problem with coffeylock is assuming that the players have control over the number of rest they can take and that they can take a short rest instead of a long rest. Any sane DM won't allow it.