Raven Queen Paladin.

[Aussiehams]

G'day all.

I'm hoping for some help from people with some better Realms Lore. Is the Raven Queen an appropriate deity for a LN Vengeance Paladin?

Basically my char was a soldier whose patrol was ambushed and defeated by a cult of Orcus. He was being sacrificed, and vowed vengeance with his last breath.
He saw a indistinct figure who would help him get vengeance against the cult, and woke up as a Pally.
I kept the deity vague to work out with my DM at lvl 3, and we just hit 2. I think that the Raven Queen is at Demi god level in FR, and I just want to make sure that she makes sense in this context.
I might MC a couple of levels of Hexblade later, so she would probably make that a bit more legit as well.

Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated, cheers.

[Unoriginal]

The Raven Queen isn't a god, so if you're looking for a divine entity empowering your Paladin it wouldn't work.

That being said, even in FR the Paladin's power is their Oath. You could say that the Raven Queen simply sent her ravens to snatch your soul and put it back in your body after deciding it'd be interesting to observe you living a bit longer.

It's not really her thing, given she can much more easily toy with dead people, but she is a fickle and insane entity. So she could have done it.

[Jcp1195]

Like Unoriginal said, Paladins don’t actually receive their power from Gods, they get them from their oaths. If you can come up with enough reasoning as to why the Morrigan herself would want to keep you alive, then go for it, just don’t expect her to intervene like she would if you were one of her Clerics.

If I could make a suggestion, take a dip into Warlock and take the Raven Queen Patron from Unearthed Arcana. That would at least get you started moving toward her good graces and give her reason to bother humoring you.

[MightyDuck]

If you have time on your hands I'd suggest watching the final arc from critical role season 1 as one of the characters becomes a paladin of the raven queen.

If you don't have the time then the best advice I can give you for RPing a raven queen paladin is to focus on reflavoring the tenets of the oath to flesh out the characters ideology. The raven queen is specifically concerned about undeath and imbalance and so a champion of the raven queen might be sent out to reclaim the souls of those who have found a way to cheat death. Think of it like being ghost rider or the the grim reaper, hunt down those who have broken the laws of nature.

If you want build advice, I'd definitely suggest the raven queen warlock patron, it's not optimal but it's thematic AF and is just really cool, alternatively you could mc shadow sorcerer for hounds of I'll omen.

[Millstone85]

I'm hoping for some help from people with some better Realms Lore. Is the Raven Queen an appropriate deity for a LN Vengeance Paladin?If you are looking for Forgotten Realms lore on the Raven Queen, there simply is none. The only way she exists in the Realms is by considering the setting as part of the larger 5e Planescape.


That being said, even in FR the Paladin's power is their Oath.Arguable. This is how SCAG introduces the class:
Some people are warriors of superior virtue. They exemplify a host of traits that folk consider honorable, just, and good. These warriors aspire to be the best people they can. When such a warrior also has great devotion to a particular deity, that god can reward the faithful with a measure of divine power, making that person a paladin.

[Unoriginal]

If you have time on your hands I'd suggest watching the final arc from critical role season 1 as one of the characters becomes a paladin of the raven queen.

Critical Role's Raven Queen isn't 5e's Raven Queen.


The raven queen is specifically concerned about undeath and imbalance and so a champion of the raven queen might be sent out to reclaim the souls of those who have found a way to cheat death. Think of it like being ghost rider or the the grim reaper, hunt down those who have broken the laws of nature.

You're thinking of 4e's Raven Queen. 5e's much different, and not especially concerned by those things.


If you are looking for Forgotten Realms lore on the Raven Queen, there simply is none. The only way she exists in the Realms is by considering the setting as part of the larger 5e Planescape.

This is correct.



Arguable. This is how SCAG introduces the class:

Well, true, but it's still an extreme devotion ---> power kind of deal.

[Scarytincan]

If you are looking for Forgotten Realms lore on the Raven Queen, there simply is none :

Mordenkainen's has a good bit on her as well

[lunaticfringe]

Vengeance would be Hoar the Doombringer. Opposing Orcus just for funsies could be Kelemvor or Jergal.

[Unoriginal]

Mordenkainen's has a good bit on her as well

The Mordenkainen's technically cover 5e's Planescape (when it talks of planar affairs) and Spelljammer (when it talks of the world in the Material Plane).

[Scarytincan]

The Mordenkainen's technically cover 5e's Planescape (when it talks of planar affairs) and Spelljammer (when it talks of the world in the Material Plane).

Would you mind posting a source for that please?

[Unoriginal]

Would you mind posting a source for that please?

Aside from the Mordenkainen's text making explicit mention of concepts from both?

There isn't a big "this is Spelljammer and Planescape" sticker on the cover, but there's enough to make the link. Giffs aren't in the book for no reason, to mention one thing.

The fact that the different setting's worlds are described as part of one Material Plane with Spelljammer vessels being able to cross the distances between them is another.

[Millstone85]

The Mordenkainen's technically cover 5e's Planescape (when it talks of planar affairs) and Spelljammer (when it talks of the world in the Material Plane).
Would you mind posting a source for that please?Other than the (strangely jumbled ) Great Wheel on the MToF cover, there is this tweet (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/885909193718341633) from Crawford.
We have no Planescape books to announce currently, but Planescape is the metasetting of the game, as laid out in ch. 2 of the DMG. So if MToF is not for a particular setting, it is kind of Planescape by default.

But if this is too meta, let's just say that the Raven Queen doesn't have any known history with Toril.

[Scarytincan]

Thank you both. I suppose my problem was a starting point bias that I just kind of assumed FR was the default for all dnd unless otherwise stated. Thank you for the clarification :)

[Unoriginal]

Thank you both. I suppose my problem was a starting point bias that I just kind of assumed FR was the default for all dnd unless otherwise stated. Thank you for the clarification :)

Nope, FR is not the default setting. It is however where most of AL adventures are happening, so the confusion is understandable.

[OracularPoet]

If you have time on your hands I'd suggest watching the final arc from critical role season 1 as one of the characters becomes a paladin of the raven queen.

Actually, second-to-last arc (Chromaconclave arc) is when the transition to Raven Queen paladin occurs. Can’t remember if the teasing of the transition starts to happen during their first or second trip to Vasselheim.

[Aussiehams]

Nope, FR is not the default setting. It is however where most of AL adventures are happening, so the confusion is understandable.

Huh, I thought FR was the default 5e setting. Good to know.

[Arkhios]

To be clear, there is no default setting for D&D, at all (at least in 5th edition). There are settings that technically could claim to be so (like Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk), but saying that they were would still be false and slightly unfair to all the other settings out there.

...

That out of the way, if you want a FR deity that fits the role Raven Queen filled in 4th edition, Kelemvor is a good one. Not a perfect match, to be fair, but very close.

Lawful Neutral Greater Deity also known as Lord of the Dead and Judge of the Damned. His suggested domains are Death and Grave, but he frowns upon undeath and the undead (as such, his paladins often strive to destroy undead in all of its various forms - thus Oath of Devotion would also be fitting for a paladin of Kelemvor; but Vengeance is as good as any).

One of his duties as the judge of the damned is to guide the faithful souls to their respective deities, and to judge the worth of the Faithless (those who never chose a deity; atheists) and the False (those who "betrayed" their deities in life) in regards to their actions in life.

Kelemvor is perhaps a bit cold, but at least he is fair (unlike the previous gods of the dead: Jergal, Myrkul, and Cyric).

[Millstone85]

To be clear, there is no default setting for D&D, at all (at least in 5th edition). There are settings that technically could claim to be so (like Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk), but saying that they were would still be false and slightly unfair to all the other settings out there.I recommend watching this interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JHyJj8C21c) of Jeremy Crawford.

12:29 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JHyJj8C21c&t=12m29s)

The way we present the planes in the core books for D&D is totally Planescape. We were such fans of Planescape we were just like "And it is just core now". I mean, that's why the Lady of Pain is talked about in the Dungeon's Master Guide. The city of Sigil, the Outlands, the gate-towns, all of that.

17:35 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JHyJj8C21c&t=17m35s)

I often get asked, you know, "Are all the worlds in the same universe?". And the official answer is yes. And we talk about that in the Player's Handbook and also in the chapter of the Dungeon's Master Guide called Creating a Multiverse. And if you go to the end of that chapter, there is a list of known worlds in the Prime Material Plane, and that list includes Toril, the world the Forgotten Realms, it includes Eberron, it includes Krynn, the world of Dragonlance, and a number of other classic settings.

24:29 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JHyJj8C21c&t=24m29s)

There was a period in D&D's life, especially around the third edition years, where this idea of all of D&D's worlds being in one giant setting together, that idea started to go out of focus. And so you started ending up with worlds that were really sort of shepherded and designed to just be their own thing. [...] But again, it is important for people to remember, for the background of D&D, the original assumption in first edition was that the worlds were all in a multiverse together, and that is also the assumption of fifth edition.

[SirGraystone]

All the official Wizards campaign except Curse of Strahd are set in Forgotten Realms, does that make it the default setting? Does it really matter?

As for the Raven Queen, Mordenkainen book speak of her as a powerful and mysterious being, but doesn't say if she's a god or not, in the end it's up to your Dungeon Master is really the one who can decide that.

[Unoriginal]

All the official Wizards campaign except Curse of Strahd are set in Forgotten Realms, does that make it the default setting? Does it really matter?

As for the Raven Queen, Mordenkainen book speak of her as a powerful and mysterious being, but doesn't say if she's a god or not, in the end it's up to your Dungeon Master is really the one who can decide that.

Actually the Mordenkainen's quite explicitly says that the Raven Queen did not reach godhood. Since she's still a basically immortal being of immense power who rules over a plane and has dedicated followers, it's most academic, though, aside from the capacity to channel power through worshippers (which wouldn't stop someone dedicated to the concept of Death to worship the Raven Queen too).

[Arkhios]

I recommend watching this interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JHyJj8C21c) of Jeremy Crawford.

12:29 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JHyJj8C21c&t=12m29s)


17:35 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JHyJj8C21c&t=17m35s)


24:29 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JHyJj8C21c&t=24m29s)

Oh. Okay. I stand corrected.

Can't watch the video yet, so I'll take your word for that those quotes are accurate.

However, I have to defend myself with couple of points.

One: I didn't know Jeremy Crawford had been talking about it until now.

Two: I knew very little about Planescape setting until relatively recently (a few years, give or take) and simply hadn't realized the connection between the core books and Planescape as a whole.

I did, however, know that the "core" settings are in the same multiverse. (By "core" I mean every official setting).

[Millstone85]

Since Kelemvor has been mentioned, here is something that bothers me. No, not the Wall, something else.

Where is the Fugue Plane?

As far as I understand the various cosmologies:
* World Tree - The Fugue Plane is its own thing.
* World Axis - The Fugue Plane is an astral dominion.
* Old Great Wheel - The Fugue Plane is part of Hades.
* New Great Wheel - ????? ????? ?????

I would put it in the Shadowfell, which could lead to some interesting conflict when the Raven Queen shows up in the Realms.

[Unoriginal]

Since Kelemvor has been mentioned, here is something that bothers me. No, not the Wall, something else.

Where is the Fugue Plane?

As far as I understand the various cosmologies:
* World Tree - The Fugue Plane is its own thing.
* World Axis - The Fugue Plane is an astral dominion.
* Old Great Wheel - The Fugue Plane is part of Hades.
* New Great Wheel - ????? ????? ?????

I would put it in the Shadowfell, which could lead to some interesting conflict when the Raven Queen shows up in the Realms.

Could be a demiplane, in the Astral or otherwise.

[M Placeholder]

Since Kelemvor has been mentioned, here is something that bothers me. No, not the Wall, something else.

Where is the Fugue Plane?

As far as I understand the various cosmologies:
* World Tree - The Fugue Plane is its own thing.
* World Axis - The Fugue Plane is an astral dominion.
* Old Great Wheel - The Fugue Plane is part of Hades.
* New Great Wheel - ????? ????? ?????

I would put it in the Shadowfell, which could lead to some interesting conflict when the Raven Queen shows up in the Realms.

For the current Realms (5e), the reprinting of the Legend of Knucklebones in SCAG (which originally was in the 2e Splatbook Faiths and Avatars) inplies that the Fugue Plane is a part of The Grey Waste.

[Unoriginal]

For the current Realms (5e), the reprinting of the Legend of Knucklebones in SCAG (which originally was in the 2e Splatbook Faiths and Avatars) inplies that the Fugue Plane is a part of The Grey Waste.

So Kelemvor spends his time hanging out in the native plane of the incubi and succubi?

[lunaticfringe]

So Kelemvor spends his time hanging out in the native plane of the incubi and succubi?

He took over an existing godly realm. Previous owners where pretty evil and I'm sure trying to move Dendar would be a pain in the ass. Also Jergal seemed to have some mojo over the Realm itself, he/it may be able to veto a move (he is The God of Death allowing others to play Reaper because he was bored).

[Unoriginal]

He took over an existing godly realm. Previous owners where pretty evil and I'm sure trying to move Dendar would be a pain in the ass. Also Jergal seemed to have some mojo over the Realm itself, he/it may be able to veto a move (he is The God of Death allowing others to play Reaper because he was bored).

"Dude moves in a domain, but it's filled with succubi" sounds like the premise of an anime.

On more serious topic, Dendar is currently imprisoned inside Toril, not on another plane.

[2D8HP]

All the official Wizards campaign except Curse of Strahd are set in Forgotten Realms, does that make it the default setting? Does it really matter?.....


The new Guildmasters' Guide to Ravnica (http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products/guildmasters-guide-ravnica) has an adventure that's not set in the Forgotten Realms.

[jdolch]

G'day all.

I'm hoping for some help from people with some better Realms Lore. Is the Raven Queen an appropriate deity for a LN Vengeance Paladin?

Basically my char was a soldier whose patrol was ambushed and defeated by a cult of Orcus. He was being sacrificed, and vowed vengeance with his last breath.
He saw a indistinct figure who would help him get vengeance against the cult, and woke up as a Pally.
I kept the deity vague to work out with my DM at lvl 3, and we just hit 2. I think that the Raven Queen is at Demi god level in FR, and I just want to make sure that she makes sense in this context.
I might MC a couple of levels of Hexblade later, so she would probably make that a bit more legit as well.

Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated, cheers.

One thing I immediately noticed is that this is basically the perfect way to introduce 1-3 levels of Warlock into the Paladin class (Which is a very powerful combination).


You have made your pact with a mysterious entity from
the Shadowfell—a force that manifests in sentient magic
weapons carved from the stuff of shadow. The mighty
sword Blackrazor is the most notable of these weapons,
which have been spread across the multiverse over the
ages. The shadowy force behind these weapons can
offer power to warlocks who form pacts with it. Many
hexblade warlocks create weapons that emulate those
formed in the Shadowfell. Others forgo such arms,
content to weave the dark magic of that plane into their
spellcasting.
Because the Raven Queen is known to have forged the
first of these weapons, many sages speculate that she
and the force are one and that the weapons, along with
hexblade warlocks, are tools she uses to manipulate
events on the Material Plane to her inscrutable ends.

So it is very easy to see a Paladin swearing fealty to the Raven Queen and in return being given certain powers of the Shadowfell. You basically roll the Paladins "Deity" and the Warlocks "Pact" all in one. The Raven Queen is True Neutral (or "acts towards inscrutable ends") but nothing says you can't be lawful neutral and serve as one of her agents, in fact it makes perfect sense. Also, as others have mentioned already the Paladin of 5e doesn't require a deity at all. He can basically swear an Oath on anything. It is the act of "Choosing Sides" itself that grants the Paladin her powers. Mechanically Warlock 3 gives you all that Warlock goodness (Hexblade's Curse, Hexwarrior, Eldritch Invocations including EB+AB+RB-Combo, Short Rest Slots, Warlock Spells including "Shield" and a Pact) and then you can go back to Paladin. When you build like that, just make sure you push CHA as high as you can, maybe also take proficiency in Persuation etc. Hexwarrior means your STR gets replaced by CHA in Combat applications. (Although keep in mind that you still need 13 STR to multiclass and whatever you need to wear the Armor of your choosing)

What i personally did with my Paladin concept was to also take levels in Shadow Sorcerer.

You are a creature of shadow, for your innate magic
comes from the Shadowfell itself. You might trace your
lineage to an entity from that place, or perhaps you were
exposed to its fell energy and transformed by it.
The power of shadow magic casts a strange pall over your physical presence. The spark of life that sustains
you is muffled, as if it struggles to remain viable against
the dark energy that imbues your soul. At your option,
you can pick from or roll on the Shadow Sorcerer
Quirks table to create a quirk for your character.

On one Hand it is thematically awesome since it basically states right there in the description that you became a Sorcerer because you have been touched by the Shadowfell. The Quirks are pretty cool. Also it is of course mechanically not too shabby. (I don't have a problem with "being edgy". We are playing a Fantasy game with Dungeons and Dragons for crying out loud. It just becomes ridiculous if the rest of the campaign, the party, etc. don't reflect the same tone. It's difficult to play a dark, brooding Figure if the Rest of your Party goes full Murder-Hobo for example, but then we could argue about who exactly is out of place. Most people who call "edgy", just don't have the chops and gravitas it takes to make dark fantasy a compelling setting. I shudder when i think about what Curse of Strahd looks like at those tables.)

Of course you don't have to do that at all. I just like the theme of it. Also one could argue that taking Paladin levels at all is a waste and one would be better served by going Warlock3/Sorcerer17 and then just re-fluffing the Hexblade into "The Raven Queens Paladin".

[lunaticfringe]

"Dude moves in a domain, but it's filled with succubi" sounds like the premise of an anime.

On more serious topic, Dendar is currently imprisoned inside Toril, not on another plane.

Where's that from? I know she enters Faerun from a portal in/under Chult but as far as I know she still lives next to the Fugue Plain.

Admittedly I haven't read all of ToA, but:

The yuan-ti of Omu believe that a sealed portal lies somewhere under the Peaks of Flame and that opening it will enable Dendar the Night Serpent to enter the world.

[Unoriginal]

Where's that from? I know she enters Faerun from a portal in/under Chult but as far as I know she still lives next to the Fugue Plain.

Admittedly I haven't read all of ToA, but:

The yuan-ti of Omu believe that a sealed portal lies somewhere under the Peaks of Flame and that opening it will enable Dendar the Night Serpent to enter the world.

I might have misread or misremembered this part.

[lunaticfringe]

I might have misread or misremembered this part.

No worries I was just curious. I don't keep up on official realmslore. She was pretty key in Kelemvor's ascension so I was curious if that was retconned or changed. Or if there was newer Dendar lore where she got out and was then sealed. I'm a fan of the Night Serpent.

[RedMage125]

I forget, were Revenants released as a player race anywhere? Like in UA or something? Because "dying, but sent back by the Raven Queen for vengeance" sound identical to 4e Revenant fluff.


The Raven Queen isn't a god, so if you're looking for a divine entity empowering your Paladin it wouldn't work.

That being said, even in FR the Paladin's power is their Oath. You could say that the Raven Queen simply sent her ravens to snatch your soul and put it back in your body after deciding it'd be interesting to observe you living a bit longer.

It's not really her thing, given she can much more easily toy with dead people, but she is a fickle and insane entity. So she could have done it.
That's actually a little problematic. As MToF says she's not a god, and that gives us the most background on her. MToF is basically written to be applicable to ALL worlds, as if Mordenkainen (an Oerth native) has studied up on Faerun, Eberron, etc.

HOWEVER, The DMG has the "Dawn War" pantheon which DOES list her as a deity.

So there is at least one world in which she is.


If you don't have the time then the best advice I can give you for RPing a raven queen paladin is to focus on reflavoring the tenets of the oath to flesh out the characters ideology. The raven queen is specifically concerned about undeath and imbalance and so a champion of the raven queen might be sent out to reclaim the souls of those who have found a way to cheat death. Think of it like being ghost rider or the the grim reaper, hunt down those who have broken the laws of nature.


This idea is frikkin' METAL.

[Arkhios]

If you don't have the time then the best advice I can give you for RPing a raven queen paladin is to focus on reflavoring the tenets of the oath to flesh out the characters ideology. The raven queen is specifically concerned about undeath and imbalance and so a champion of the raven queen might be sent out to reclaim the souls of those who have found a way to cheat death. Think of it like being ghost rider or the the grim reaper, hunt down those who have broken the laws of nature.

This idea is frikkin' METAL.

As long as it's not played by Nicholas Cage; because that would make it merely PUNK. And only if they're feeling lucky.

[Millstone85]

For the current Realms (5e), the reprinting of the Legend of Knucklebones in SCAG (which originally was in the 2e Splatbook Faiths and Avatars) inplies that the Fugue Plane is a part of The Grey Waste.Good catch. Alright then, the Gray Waste of Hades it is.


So Kelemvor spends his time hanging out in the native plane of the incubi and succubi?Not the first image that would have come to my mind about a plane of dust and despair.

[Unoriginal]

Not the first image that would have come to my mind about a plane of dust and despair.

Well that's the thing. the 'cubi are all about dust and despair.