How many magic items is normal?

[Mordante]

My first post on this forum. So maybe a little background about me as well.

About 20-22 years ago I started playing roleplaying games. We played Talislanta. We had a lot of fun over the years. Groups changed new player came some left. But for about 15 to 16 year I was always in at least one party.
However things happened. Not bad things, but some people had children, some moved etc so a few years back the party just faded away no new dates were set. I was left with no roleplaying group for a few years.
Before I forget I did play maybe one or two sessions of AD&D in my teens but that never set of. Also I did do a two or three D&D session in my early thirties but that DM got his wife pregnant so that was the end of that.
Now at least a year ago I joined a long running group, many of the original members were not there any more but some still were. I think that group is has been going on for 10+ years. I was invited to that group.
This group started out playing I think with AD&D then moved on to 3.5 and are still playing 3.5. Main reason for playing 3.5 is that no one want to buy the 5.0 books and people still have nightmares converting their character

Well I rolled my lvl15 druid and joined the party. That druid retired over the last couple of sessions. The last year we finished a quest that has been running for maybe 5-10 years? During the end of the quest I sort of introduced my new character.
A fighter, lvl 15 the party is caster heavy so I wanted to play a non-caster.

In the mean time I also got invited into an other party. I changed my druid somewhat and started to play a lvl11 party.

There is very little powerplay in both groups.

Now to my question. I feel both DM's are a bit cheap on the magic items. But since I'm relative new to D&D I'm not really sure. Maybe some people can shine their light onto it.

My lvl 11 druid has:
+4 armour of the beast (part of trappings of the beast)
Ring of the beast (part of trappings of the beast)
Wild braces of natural weapons +3
Belt of charisma +2

Is this a normal amount of magic items for this level?
Now I really want a ring, amulet whatever with + wisdom with wild clasping. My current wisdom is 16. I have no stats higher than 16.

My lvl 15 fighter has
Belt of giant strength +4
Sac of everlasting ale (replenish once a day) My fighter is sort of an alcoholic
Full plate mindarmor +3
Parrying +3 Falchion
Tablecloth of tavern food (once per day it gives a good simple meal, regain 10HP while eating)

Now to me that does no seem to be overly powerful. Is this the kind gear you can expect for a level 15 fighter. Is it too much already or is it a bit low?

Since I'm relative new to the game I don't want to sound greedy to the DMs. So I ask it here. Are my character equipped in a way that is normal for their level?

[Darrin]

You need to answer two questions first:

1) Are you having fun? If the answer is yes, then there really aren't any questions left to answer. Many games can be great and rewarding even if the PCs are kept in relative poverty and devoid of popular "Christmas Tree" magic marts. If the answer is no, then you probably have an issue you need to discuss with the DM.

2) Do you find the game challenging but still fair? And what I mean by that, is the DM giving the party encounters that are legitimately hard but the party is able to overcome them with good tactics and judiciously spending resources?

For the second question, the issue you want to look out for is if the DM is sending threats your way and deliberately depriving the party access to legitimate countermeasures. For example, he keeps hammering you with invisible or incorporeal creatures and deliberately sandbags any attempt for the party to get magic items that would specifically be used against those types of creatures. Or flying creatures, and then mocking and insulting the players when they try to find items that would allow them to even the playing field. If this is the case, then the DM may have a particularly adversarial or antagonistic philosophy about how to challenge the players. Or there may be deeper psychological issues that they are trying to inflict upon the players.

As far as your original question goes... it's very difficult to describe any D&D campaign as "normal", and even if you do manage to find one that's "normal", then adherence to Wealth-By-Level and making magic items widely available leads to a "Christmas Tree Effect" that tends to have an extremely unpredictable impact on game balance, particularly in the higher levels.

[GrayDeath]

Normal is what the group has been doing since it started - until now, whichever group you are in, unless it only just started. ^^


More helpful: There are Wealth By level Guidelines for D&D 3.5, which, unless your group is playing a very different setting (low magic for example) means that if you dont have the Items you think you need you can visit a city and buy them.

A Group NOT using WBL AND not showering player-characters in a lot of loot is a red flag for me (both the "Magic mart" and the "work with the huge amount of stuff you dont actually want" are in my opinion workable gamestyles, but if you dont have EITHER it is a problem for most core assumptions of D&D 3.5).

My suggestion would be to ask your DM what his style is. Also, on a side note, even if the Group is caster heavy and you want a "Fighting Man" playing straight Fighter is almost always a Bad Idea (TM). Just saying.


Also, welcome to the Playground. THis will change the way you look at RPG`s, trust me. ^^

[Melcar]

Well it depends... But my high level characters usually try to have one in each slot at a high enchantment as possible. My level 32 mage has the following:

Ring of Protection +5
Cloak of Resistance +5
Ring of Evation, Enduring Arcana
Boots of Sprinting and Striding
Headband of Intellect +6
Gloves of Dex +6
Braces of Armor +8
Belt of Con +6
Pearl of Wis +6
Robe of Homebrew taken from an NPC: Gives the following thins:
Mindblank, +1 spell per day, per level, +2 to saves against spells and spell-like abilities, and +2 to spell dc, SR 30.


... Lover levels its just a many as possible.

I don't particular see a problem with your gear, compared to the games I've played in... And if your having fun, then its cool!

[denthor]

All the things you listed are permanent they replenish never go away no need to track.

Would prefer with either. Potions scrolls (that other must read for you ), 15 javelins of lightning? Just because there are fewer items does not mean you are short changed. It just means you are sturdy for a longer periods of time rather than short and vulnerable.

[daremetoidareyo]

My rule of thumb as a DM is to make sure each player has one cool magic item with powers they use that facilitate whatever character they have. One minor magic item usually with a static defensive ability. And one or two consumables. Whether they buy them or find them, it doesn't much matter to me. I let players build shopping list and I make sure that they get some of those items.

I make sure that they get these by level 6.

Players are tricky and that they want to feel awesome while also feeling challenged. Without some limitations on magic items, it becomes harder as a DM to produce those challenges. I tend to err on giving them what they need to succeed and letting them destroy the campaign in the process.

[KillianHawkeye]

As already stated, normal is relative.

It seems like you are playing in relatively low-power groups. They're playing like it's still old-school AD&D times, where you usually got less cool stuff but also didn't need it.

Since Wizards basically resurrected D&D, a lot of things have changed. Video game and pop culture influences are stronger than back in the 80s. Having special equipment all over your body and filling up your bags is more expected now, and the game gets designed with these kinds of expectations in mind (although I think they took a conscious step back in 5e because they saw it was getting out of hand).

Anyway, if you're having fun and the DM is keeping the game balanced with a low wealth party, then there's nothing wrong with fewer magic items.

[Mordante]

You need to answer two questions first:

1) Are you having fun? If the answer is yes, then there really aren't any questions left to answer. Many games can be great and rewarding even if the PCs are kept in relative poverty and devoid of popular "Christmas Tree" magic marts. If the answer is no, then you probably have an issue you need to discuss with the DM.

2) Do you find the game challenging but still fair? And what I mean by that, is the DM giving the party encounters that are legitimately hard but the party is able to overcome them with good tactics and judiciously spending resources?

For the second question, the issue you want to look out for is if the DM is sending threats your way and deliberately depriving the party access to legitimate countermeasures. For example, he keeps hammering you with invisible or incorporeal creatures and deliberately sandbags any attempt for the party to get magic items that would specifically be used against those types of creatures. Or flying creatures, and then mocking and insulting the players when they try to find items that would allow them to even the playing field. If this is the case, then the DM may have a particularly adversarial or antagonistic philosophy about how to challenge the players. Or there may be deeper psychological issues that they are trying to inflict upon the players.

As far as your original question goes... it's very difficult to describe any D&D campaign as "normal", and even if you do manage to find one that's "normal", then adherence to Wealth-By-Level and making magic items widely available leads to a "Christmas Tree Effect" that tends to have an extremely unpredictable impact on game balance, particularly in the higher levels.

1) Yes I´m having fun.

2) Most battles are not really that complicated since most of the players are not that hardcore many don't have any books themselves and fully depend on the DM to let them know what items are good. Even though they have been playing for years


Normal is what the group has been doing since it started - until now, whichever group you are in, unless it only just started. ^^


More helpful: There are Wealth By level Guidelines for D&D 3.5, which, unless your group is playing a very different setting (low magic for example) means that if you dont have the Items you think you need you can visit a city and buy them.

A Group NOT using WBL AND not showering player-characters in a lot of loot is a red flag for me (both the "Magic mart" and the "work with the huge amount of stuff you dont actually want" are in my opinion workable gamestyles, but if you dont have EITHER it is a problem for most core assumptions of D&D 3.5).

My suggestion would be to ask your DM what his style is. Also, on a side note, even if the Group is caster heavy and you want a "Fighting Man" playing straight Fighter is almost always a Bad Idea (TM). Just saying.


Also, welcome to the Playground. THis will change the way you look at RPG`s, trust me. ^^

Thank you.

I think both DMs still consider a magic item something rare. Since most started to play well before WBL I don't think they consider WBL at all. In the lvl15 group we just finished a campaign that started year ago. I doubt the rewards will be more then a level up and 1 magic item.

I the group we have a Duskblade who is afraid to go into combat, a illusionist that is more into saving orphans and does not like to do harm, a divine oracle, a cleric fully devoted to healing, a ranged ranger that has a really powerfull bow to make up for the fact that his skills and feat are all over the pace. A bard that is pure a support/buff class.
My fighter is 10lvl fighter 5lvl archblade


Well it depends... But my high level characters usually try to have one in each slot at a high enchantment as possible. My level 32 mage has the following:

Ring of Protection +5
Cloak of Resistance +5
Ring of Evation, Enduring Arcana
Boots of Sprinting and Striding
Headband of Intellect +6
Gloves of Dex +6
Braces of Armor +8
Belt of Con +6
Pearl of Wis +6
Robe of Homebrew taken from an NPC: Gives the following thins:
Mindblank, +1 spell per day, per level, +2 to saves against spells and spell-like abilities, and +2 to spell dc, SR 30.


... Lover levels its just a many as possible.

I don't particular see a problem with your gear, compared to the games I've played in... And if your having fun, then its cool!

The 11lvl druid will have a huge problem getting wild clasped items since I'm the only druid in the (human) kingdom. The DM told me that getting more then one or two +3 items at lvl11 is that max.


All the things you listed are permanent they replenish never go away no need to track.

Would prefer with either. Potions scrolls (that other must read for you ), 15 javelins of lightning? Just because there are fewer items does not mean you are short changed. It just means you are sturdy for a longer periods of time rather than short and vulnerable.

I really dislike use and discard items since it is a royal pain to keep track of all of it. That is also one of the reasons I started playing a fighter. No need to worry about how many spells I've cast etc :)



My rule of thumb as a DM is to make sure each player has one cool magic item with powers they use that facilitate whatever character they have. One minor magic item usually with a static defensive ability. And one or two consumables. Whether they buy them or find them, it doesn't much matter to me. I let players build shopping list and I make sure that they get some of those items.

I make sure that they get these by level 6.

Players are tricky and that they want to feel awesome while also feeling challenged. Without some limitations on magic items, it becomes harder as a DM to produce those challenges. I tend to err on giving them what they need to succeed and letting them destroy the campaign in the process.

Sounds like a good idea. My fighter wants a item that makes him harder to target with spells like know alignment since the next quest will most likely be deep into enemy territory.


As already stated, normal is relative.

It seems like you are playing in relatively low-power groups. They're playing like it's still old-school AD&D times, where you usually got less cool stuff but also didn't need it.

Since Wizards basically resurrected D&D, a lot of things have changed. Video game and pop culture influences are stronger than back in the 80s. Having special equipment all over your body and filling up your bags is more expected now, and the game gets designed with these kinds of expectations in mind (although I think they took a conscious step back in 5e because they saw it was getting out of hand).

Anyway, if you're having fun and the DM is keeping the game balanced with a low wealth party, then there's nothing wrong with fewer magic items.

The lvl11 group is definitely low powered. I have about 200gold in my possession and simple things like a roof over our head can be a challenge. Part of the reason why we have only a few magic items is because a large part of the group has zero clue what is available and what they want. Or actually chose items that don't really help them progress. The DM gave of them some rewards a while back. she spend it all (a sorc) on items that make her stand out in parties and look good. Enchanted magic dresses etc. :)
Her main reason to quest is to earn gold that she can spend on go to parties and upper class events :)

[Nifft]

Note that on this forum we often use blue text for sarcasm and humor.

Playing a Fighter at level 15 is what's abnormal. Retire the Fighter (build a castle) and play a level 15 Cleric/Druid/Wizard who casts level 8 spells, as God and Gygax had intended.


But seriously, if the game is fun then the specifics don't matter.

If you're not having fun because you can't meaningfully engage with level-appropriate challenges -- for example if you can't fly due to lacking magical flight, and you're being killed repeatedly by flying evil wizards or whatnot -- then you need more gear.

If you're trivializing encounters because of your gear, or you're spending too much time with a spreadsheet doing accounting work on your magic item bonuses, then you need less gear.


There's a table in the DMG for expected wealth-by-level, but it's an average across characters and levels. You shouldn't always be exactly even. You should be ahead of WBL half the time, and behind WBL the other half.

[Mordante]

To be honest find the whole idea of a WBL a bit baffling. I’ve googled the list. It seems a bit over top to me. It does make me greedy. :)

In my experience
lvl 1 to 7 beginning adventures
lvl 8 to 15 experienced adventurers
lvl 16 to 20 seasoned adventurers maybe time to retire. Hopefully saved some money so they can spend a few years in relative luxury.

lvl 30+ kings, generals, leaders of nations. Not a lvl most players will ever reach.

[Luckmann]

Honestly, to me, what you describe sounds like the perfect amount of everything, fun-wise, but YMMV. Playing with people that just play the characters they want to play instead of worrying about the optimal set-up is a gods3nd, and I prefer games where there's no magic-mart in every village, and where the value of a gold coin still matters.

Even every magic item sounds like it is or feels unique some way. That's amazing.

[HouseRules]

It is normal to have Gear Value total to be at least NPC's Gear Value. Of course, a character has PC wealth by level, so they need to have consumables and expenditures.
At level 1-3, that means all of their wealth should be in Gear. After that, it slowly progress 60%, 48%, 44%, 38%, 35%, 33%, 31%, 30%. Thus, the lower bound is about 30% of WBL in gear. There is no upper bound to how much a character wants to have in their gear.

[Jay R]

It's impossible to answer that question alone. A game should be balanced enough to be fun and challenging. Magic items are a tool for doing so, but not by any means the only one.

The "normal" amount of magic items is enough that the party can defeat, get along with, or escape most encounters, but is challenged and/or threatened by the majority of them.

If the encounters are too easy, then either:
a. the party has too much magic, or
b. the monsters aren't powerful enough, or
c. there aren't enough monsters, or
d. the DM's battle tactics (or diplomatic initiatives) are poor, or
e. possibly something else.

Similarly, if the encounters are too difficult, then either:
a. the party has to little magic, or
b. The monsters are too powerful, or
c. there are too many monsters in the encounters, or
d. the DM's battle tactics (or diplomatic initiatives) are too clever for this group, or
e. possibly something else.

[Fizban]

My lvl 11 druid has:
+4 armour of the beast (part of trappings of the beast)
Ring of the beast (part of trappings of the beast)
Wild braces of natural weapons +3
Belt of charisma +2
Pretty sure that Druid is over WBL. Armor of the Beast is 26k, +33k for increasing the enhancement (from 1+3 to 4+3), Ring of the Beast is 8k (and massively overpowered), "Wild Bracers of Natural Weapons +3" must be at minimum 18,000gp before counting whatever "wild" means and whether they boost multiple natural weapons like the Amulet of Mighty Fists (which would increase the price to 54,000), and finally 4k for the cha bonus.

That's a total of 88,000gp and change minimum, up to 134,000gp. That's at least 22,000gp over the game's given "normal," on one of the most powerful classes in the game, with at least one item I've banned for being OP.

That said, the character probably doesn't feel as powerful as they should, because all their wealth is tied up in expensive items with single high bonuses or esoteric effects, when the usual expectation is to round out your different bonus types before upgrading them. You've got at +7 equivalent armor out of the maximum 10, with a bonus wild shape you don't even need, but none of the other flat boosters you'd likely accrue from random treasure or NPC gear. This DM is either being ridiculously generous, or is valuing a lot of that gear down because the final effect on your stats isn't that much. This character is fine to match normal monsters of their level, but should be allowed a wis item and a cloak of resistance soon.

My lvl 15 fighter has
Belt of giant strength +4
Sac of everlasting ale (replenish once a day) My fighter is sort of an alcoholic
Full plate mindarmor +3
Parrying +3 Falchion
Tablecloth of tavern food (once per day it gives a good simple meal, regain 10HP while eating)
16k, <1k, 12k, 32k, and no more than 5k for the last (a Horn of Plenty gives the full Heroes' Feast effect for 12k)- 1k if it only feeds one person.

That's 62,000gp, on a 15th level character. Almost but not quite 1/3 of WBL. On the character type which is the most reliant on "WBL," specifically high bonus weapons, armor, and other AC and save boosters. The weapon is almost okay if you count Parrying as a useful ability, but probably ought to be +4. Anything less than a full +5 armor is an insult, and it should be paired with at least +2 deflection, +2 natural armor, and +4 or +5 cloak of resistance, and that's still well under WBL. Str bonus ought to have been the full +6 by now, or at least another +4 on another stat or two.

This DM is being extremely stingy, and the character is not fine to match normal monsters (let alone the extra powerful monsters and scenarios presented in many later MMs and modules). I expect this game is either being run with lots of low/no-optimization classed NPCs with zero magic equipment as enemies (which are much easier to kill than monsters, to the point it's laughable), or is leaning very heavily on the spellcasters to fix everything (to which I would expect the Fighter to be having a bad time).


To be honest find the whole idea of a WBL a bit baffling. I’ve googled the list. It seems a bit over top to me. It does make me greedy. :)
The confusion comes from the idea that players are entitled to a perfect amount of gp in whatever items they want from whatever book they want. The only thing the DMG actually "guarantees" is that you should get the standard random DMG treasure rolls given for the monsters in their statblocks, then take the items you don't want to a city and sell them for half price, and spend your cash on items you do want. Running this exactly as-is can actually produce characters with less than "full" WBL and mismatched items, but even hardcore should result in at least 60-70% of the table (because a lot of it is raw cash, some items will be useful, and players tend to scrimp and save rather than use the expected amount of consumables, so you'll never have a "sell literally everything" scenario).

What seems to happen for "magic items are rare" DMs, is that they just ignore the treasure entries and dole out one or two "special" items with a modest bonus, deliberately less than any of the suggested cash amounts, and without any built in level-based scaling. Which is a problem, because 3.5 has a much larger gap in raw numbers between unequipped PCs and monsters, which only goes up as you advance to higher levels. You can compensate for this by using under-leveled monsters, but then the magic users are over-leveled by comparison.

And of course, by combining problems: using lots of zero-gear classed NPCs as foes makes it look like WBL is a bunch of greedy grabs, because you never notice that the monsters are so much huger except when it's time for a "justifiably" super hard boss, and as long as the PCs have the same gear as the special NPCs it's fair right?

If you want to have magic items be rare and special, then fine- make them grant all the bonuses the PCs need to fight more powerful monsters as they level up, and it doesn't matter how few there are or how modestly they start out. (Just don't touch the legacy weapon rules with a 10' pole). Or make sure you're handcrafting the balance of your game to support it, because you've changed the power level and thrown CR out the window, so every monster will need to be double checked.

[Quertus]

To be honest find the whole idea of a WBL a bit baffling. I’ve googled the list. It seems a bit over top to me. It does make me greedy. :)

In my experience
lvl 1 to 7 beginning adventures
lvl 8 to 15 experienced adventurers
lvl 16 to 20 seasoned adventurers maybe time to retire. Hopefully saved some money so they can spend a few years in relative luxury.

lvl 30+ kings, generals, leaders of nations. Not a lvl most players will ever reach.

So, by your list, I wouldn't want to play a character below level 42 or so.

But, to explain WBL... I've had some idiot GMs (in various systems, not just D&D) that would have players come in with high-level characters with "starting wealth". It's idiotic.

3e WBL is just a handy way to say, "hey, if the character had been playing the game, here's roughly how much treasure they would have accumulated by now. Also, the CR system is based around the characters having this much wealth in gear."

[Mordante]

Pretty sure that Druid is over WBL. Armor of the Beast is 26k, +33k for increasing the enhancement (from 1+3 to 4+3), Ring of the Beast is 8k (and massively overpowered), "Wild Bracers of Natural Weapons +3" must be at minimum 18,000gp before counting whatever "wild" means and whether they boost multiple natural weapons like the Amulet of Mighty Fists (which would increase the price to 54,000), and finally 4k for the cha bonus.

That's a total of 88,000gp and change minimum, up to 134,000gp. That's at least 22,000gp over the game's given "normal," on one of the most powerful classes in the game, with at least one item I've banned for being OP.

That said, the character probably doesn't feel as powerful as they should, because all their wealth is tied up in expensive items with single high bonuses or esoteric effects, when the usual expectation is to round out your different bonus types before upgrading them. You've got at +7 equivalent armor out of the maximum 10, with a bonus wild shape you don't even need, but none of the other flat boosters you'd likely accrue from random treasure or NPC gear. This DM is either being ridiculously generous, or is valuing a lot of that gear down because the final effect on your stats isn't that much. This character is fine to match normal monsters of their level, but should be allowed a wis item and a cloak of resistance soon.

16k, <1k, 12k, 32k, and no more than 5k for the last (a Horn of Plenty gives the full Heroes' Feast effect for 12k)- 1k if it only feeds one person.

That's 62,000gp, on a 15th level character. Almost but not quite 1/3 of WBL. On the character type which is the most reliant on "WBL," specifically high bonus weapons, armor, and other AC and save boosters. The weapon is almost okay if you count Parrying as a useful ability, but probably ought to be +4. Anything less than a full +5 armor is an insult, and it should be paired with at least +2 deflection, +2 natural armor, and +4 or +5 cloak of resistance, and that's still well under WBL. Str bonus ought to have been the full +6 by now, or at least another +4 on another stat or two.

This DM is being extremely stingy, and the character is not fine to match normal monsters (let alone the extra powerful monsters and scenarios presented in many later MMs and modules). I expect this game is either being run with lots of low/no-optimization classed NPCs with zero magic equipment as enemies (which are much easier to kill than monsters, to the point it's laughable), or is leaning very heavily on the spellcasters to fix everything (to which I would expect the Fighter to be having a bad time).


The confusion comes from the idea that players are entitled to a perfect amount of gp in whatever items they want from whatever book they want. The only thing the DMG actually "guarantees" is that you should get the standard random DMG treasure rolls given for the monsters in their statblocks, then take the items you don't want to a city and sell them for half price, and spend your cash on items you do want. Running this exactly as-is can actually produce characters with less than "full" WBL and mismatched items, but even hardcore should result in at least 60-70% of the table (because a lot of it is raw cash, some items will be useful, and players tend to scrimp and save rather than use the expected amount of consumables, so you'll never have a "sell literally everything" scenario).

What seems to happen for "magic items are rare" DMs, is that they just ignore the treasure entries and dole out one or two "special" items with a modest bonus, deliberately less than any of the suggested cash amounts, and without any built in level-based scaling. Which is a problem, because 3.5 has a much larger gap in raw numbers between unequipped PCs and monsters, which only goes up as you advance to higher levels. You can compensate for this by using under-leveled monsters, but then the magic users are over-leveled by comparison.

And of course, by combining problems: using lots of zero-gear classed NPCs as foes makes it look like WBL is a bunch of greedy grabs, because you never notice that the monsters are so much huger except when it's time for a "justifiably" super hard boss, and as long as the PCs have the same gear as the special NPCs it's fair right?

If you want to have magic items be rare and special, then fine- make them grant all the bonuses the PCs need to fight more powerful monsters as they level up, and it doesn't matter how few there are or how modestly they start out. (Just don't touch the legacy weapon rules with a 10' pole). Or make sure you're handcrafting the balance of your game to support it, because you've changed the power level and thrown CR out the window, so every monster will need to be double checked.

Thanks for the calculations.

I was looking at for a reliable calculator for item worth. Can you recommend one?

Selling items at half price only works when you have a character with haggle skills or merchant profession. Not sure we have one. I'll look into the items you suggested.

[Mordante]

So, by your list, I wouldn't want to play a character below level 42 or so.

But, to explain WBL... I've had some idiot GMs (in various systems, not just D&D) that would have players come in with high-level characters with "starting wealth". It's idiotic.

3e WBL is just a handy way to say, "hey, if the character had been playing the game, here's roughly how much treasure they would have accumulated by now. Also, the CR system is based around the characters having this much wealth in gear."

That is how I experienced the levels so far. Not sure if they are accurate in any way.

Last battle it took with my druid it took about 4 of us to kill the Orc chieftain. Not sure exactly what he was. The DM described him as a large Orc in full plate. We really did not want to go into close combat with him.

Two or three of his underlings, some kind of elite warrior orcs were the max for our lvl11 party.

[Fizban]

I was looking at for a reliable calculator for item worth. Can you recommend one?
Every item already has its price listed as part of the description, DMG or otherwise, so. . . what calculator? Those are all DMG items I suggested, prices are already in the DMG. This includes how magic weapons and armor are priced, and how the price changes if you take a Specific one (like Armor of the Beast) and increase its abilities. New items the DM made up have a price decided by the DM, or at least they should have one. The fighter's food and drink items could be matched by an Everfull Mug, Everlasting Rations, and Healing Belt, all from Magic Item Compendium, for a total of 1,350g- and only the DM knows how they've decided "wild bracers of natural attacks" would change the price, or even what item they're basing it off in the first place.

Selling items at half price only works when you have a character with haggle skills or merchant profession. Not sure we have one. I'll look into the items you suggested.
. . . Selling items at half price is the PHB standard. Page 112, Chapter 7: Equipment, Selling Loot.

In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price.
No haggling. No profession. There are several different versions of haggling rules from this or that splatbook, but selling for 1/2 price is not one of them.

Magic items have a listed price, which is used for buying and selling. The DMG doesn't state it outright because the PHB already did, but the sidebar on p214, Variant: New Magic Items, says "You should also be ready to determine the market value of a new magic item, even one that the PCs simply find, in case a character wants to sell it or duplicate it." On p137, Generating towns and Community Wealth and Population tells you how expensive of a thing you can buy in a town or city of a certain size, and how much cash the community can turn up if you're selling a bunch of expensive stuff. And on p212, Placement as Treasure, it is made clear that it is the DM's job to ensure the party has sufficient magic items, either by random treasure (and buying and selling), or hand-picked loot.

If the DM is providing sufficient magic items for whatever they're running then the point is moot, but if they're running stock monsters by the CR system then the DMG makes it clear that the expected minimum is random loot which you can sell if you don't like it to buy what you need, which unless you get pretty unlucky should result in at least 2/3 of the gp value given on the WBL table (p135), in magic items that the player personally finds useful. Once again, the Druid is in a weird place thanks to the DM running out high price items early, while the Fighter has a spread of items that are just too few and too small for their level resulting in not even half what I would expect for the most conservative of "baseline" games.

*Though a funny thing is that PCs getting less than 1/2 price for selling items is a useful mechanic. . . for a game where PCs find more items, that they can't really use, such as one where NPCs have lots basic number boosters that each PC can only use one of. Selling all those for 1/2 leads to a ton of cash, so using a "pawn shop" rule where like a realistic pawn shop you don't get anywhere near 1/2 the value, to make all these extra +1 swords properly worthless, should be quite effective. This is not the type of game being described.

Last battle it took with my druid it took about 4 of us to kill the Orc chieftain. Not sure exactly what he was. The DM described him as a large Orc in full plate. We really did not want to go into close combat with him.

Two or three of his underlings, some kind of elite warrior orcs were the max for our lvl11 party.
Yeah, that sounds exactly like what I expected. You're fighting normal humanoids with a bunch of class levels and little or no magic items. These are basically impossible for an outsider to gauge because we have no idea how your DM is building them, aside from the fact that they don't have the magic items expected for normal NPCs of that level which means they should be weaker, and yet your party has trouble killing them. If your suggestion of level progression is accurate, I wouldn't be surprised if the chieftain was an 18th level fighter or something.

The CR system and magic item expectations are for vanilla monsters, not this, so there is no book based answer to give for what amount of magic items you should have. The DM is making up the foes, so the DM needs to make up the items, and all the rest of the game balance while they're at it.

[Zancloufer]

. . .
Now to my question. I feel both DM's are a bit cheap on the magic items. But since I'm relative new to D&D I'm not really sure. Maybe some people can shine their light onto it.

My lvl 11 druid has:
+4 armour of the beast (part of trappings of the beast)
Ring of the beast (part of trappings of the beast)
Wild braces of natural weapons +3
Belt of charisma +2

Is this a normal amount of magic items for this level?
Now I really want a ring, amulet whatever with + wisdom with wild clasping. My current wisdom is 16. I have no stats higher than 16.



It's not a terrible amount of magic. By RAW guidelines you should have about ~60k GP worth of magic including consumables and that set is worth over 50K GP iirc. Really if you just swapped the Belt with something that boosts Wisdom instead I could see it as being pretty good. Really depends on how many consumables you have/use.



My lvl 15 fighter has
Belt of giant strength +4
Sac of everlasting ale (replenish once a day) My fighter is sort of an alcoholic
Full plate mindarmor +3
Parrying +3 Falchion
Tablecloth of tavern food (once per day it gives a good simple meal, regain 10HP while eating)

Now to me that does no seem to be overly powerful. Is this the kind gear you can expect for a level 15 fighter. Is it too much already or is it a bit low?

Since I'm relative new to the game I don't want to sound greedy to the DMs. So I ask it here. Are my character equipped in a way that is normal for their level?

15th level should be around 200k by RAW. Your fighter is most likely undergeared. Not sure about the free foods but otherwise you should probably have twice as much magical swag in value. This is especially bad as a fighter as you need items to deal with special defenses and fight that enemies may posses. Unless you have a bag with like 100 potions in it. That might help.


Mind you it does depend on how much loot the rest of the party has and how hard the fights are. As long as none of the battles seem like they could be solved by some item you are lacking and the casters don't have any more wealth than you it can work.

[GrayDeath]

To be honest find the whole idea of a WBL a bit baffling. I’ve googled the list. It seems a bit over top to me. It does make me greedy. :)

In my experience
lvl 1 to 7 beginning adventures
lvl 8 to 15 experienced adventurers
lvl 16 to 20 seasoned adventurers maybe time to retire. Hopefully saved some money so they can spend a few years in relative luxury.

lvl 30+ kings, generals, leaders of nations. Not a lvl most players will ever reach.


OK, then a look at how most setting and adventure Books see the levels:

1-3: Starting Adventurerers (Kill the rats, get the glory??)
3-6: Regular Adventurerers (may still from time to time save poor hamlets or hunt a dozen dire rats, but starting to leave that area)
7-10: Powerful Adventurers, but not TOO rare yet (Casters on this area start being really too powerful/versatile for many a classic adventure)
11-15: The local/continental Top Dogs. People know about you, people want to be like you, and you are called for stuff like Red Dragons, Hordes of Undead, fightingf a small scale war and so on.
16+: Unless the world is very unusual, here you start doing planar adventures and/or take over the country/continent. YOu are the most powerful non-epic guys and gals around (and casters are lesser Gods already).

21+ Epic. Dont touch with a 10 World Pole. ^^



As for WBL people explained it in detail already. ust let me reiterate that the 2 characters you mention are the least (druid) and most (Fighter) magic Item dependant, and given the Items you have, the OP Druid is fully geared while the sucking figther is OoL...
May be good to talk with your DM about it (and the fact that 3.5 is NOT the same game as its predecessors but with many more and much "freer" classes ^^).

[Mordante]

It's not a terrible amount of magic. By RAW guidelines you should have about ~60k GP worth of magic including consumables and that set is worth over 50K GP iirc. Really if you just swapped the Belt with something that boosts Wisdom instead I could see it as being pretty good. Really depends on how many consumables you have/use.



15th level should be around 200k by RAW. Your fighter is most likely undergeared. Not sure about the free foods but otherwise you should probably have twice as much magical swag in value. This is especially bad as a fighter as you need items to deal with special defenses and fight that enemies may posses. Unless you have a bag with like 100 potions in it. That might help.


Mind you it does depend on how much loot the rest of the party has and how hard the fights are. As long as none of the battles seem like they could be solved by some item you are lacking and the casters don't have any more wealth than you it can work.

I have no consumables on any of my characters.

The belt of cha was easy to get since I don’t need cha in animal form. But when I get a wisdom item it also needs to work in wild shape. In the human capital where we are now items with the wild clasp are not available. Me and a party member are the only two druids in the kingdom.


OK, then a look at how most setting and adventure Books see the levels:

1-3: Starting Adventurerers (Kill the rats, get the glory??)
3-6: Regular Adventurerers (may still from time to time save poor hamlets or hunt a dozen dire rats, but starting to leave that area)
7-10: Powerful Adventurers, but not TOO rare yet (Casters on this area start being really too powerful/versatile for many a classic adventure)
11-15: The local/continental Top Dogs. People know about you, people want to be like you, and you are called for stuff like Red Dragons, Hordes of Undead, fightingf a small scale war and so on.
16+: Unless the world is very unusual, here you start doing planar adventures and/or take over the country/continent. YOu are the most powerful non-epic guys and gals around (and casters are lesser Gods already).

21+ Epic. Dont touch with a 10 World Pole. ^^



As for WBL people explained it in detail already. ust let me reiterate that the 2 characters you mention are the least (druid) and most (Fighter) magic Item dependant, and given the Items you have, the OP Druid is fully geared while the sucking figther is OoL...
May be good to talk with your DM about it (and the fact that 3.5 is NOT the same game as its predecessors but with many more and much "freer" classes ^^).

With the lvl 15 party we just finished a major quest line that started years ago. Some dragons were performing a cleaning ritual and the party was the last line of defence against hordes of drow, Githyanki and other nasties. Most of the enemies died by the cities defences. But if anything broke through the lines we were the last defence. The battle lasted 24h non stop and it took us about 8months to finish. The preparations took close to a decade I think.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

3e WBL is just a handy way to say, "hey, if the character had been playing the game, here's roughly how much treasure they would have accumulated by now. Also, the CR system is based around the characters having this much wealth in gear."Actually, that should be, "if they sold all the random gear for half-price and bought everything they actually want, instead."

WBL is about half of what you'd get randomly. So everyone saying that being 50% over WBL is severely over-wealthed, no, no they are not -- unless they got to choose all their items, anyway.

[Quertus]

Actually, that should be, "if they sold all the random gear for half-price and bought everything they actually want, instead."

WBL is about half of what you'd get randomly. So everyone saying that being 50% over WBL is severely over-wealthed, no, no they are not -- unless they got to choose all their items, anyway.

Thus the "roughly".

[Doctor Awkward]

Now to my question. I feel both DM's are a bit cheap on the magic items. But since I'm relative new to D&D I'm not really sure. Maybe some people can shine their light onto it.

The easiest answer to this, as pretty much everyone has mentioned, is the Wealth-By-Level table. It is seen here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/xp.htm) in the column labeled "Total Equipment Value."

The vast majority of published modules are balanced around the assumption that characters upon reaching a certain level will have various bonuses to aspects of their character from gear. This is represented by the "Wealth-By-Level", or how much money your character should have in equipment by that level.

Like everything else, this is a guideline, and will vary greatly from table to table. So long as the DM is balancing the challenge factor of the game around the party's excess or lack of gear, you shouldn't be having any problems.

If you want to accurately judge how close you are to this amount, you simply have to use the various item creation guidelines to price out your character's gear as accurately as you can:


My lvl 11 druid has:
+4 armour of the beast (part of trappings of the beast)
Complete Champion lists this ordinarily as a +1 wild studded leather armor for 26,175 gp.
175 of that is for the mwk studded leather, and you have +4 total enhancements on it (+1 and wild), which is 16,000. Thus the cost of the unique special wild shape benefit and set bonus is 10,000.

Creating a +4 wild studded leather armor would be 49,000, plus 175 for the studded leather, plus 10,000 for the armor of the beast special ability.

So the total value of this piece is 59,175.


Ring of the beast (part of trappings of the beast)
8,000 gp per Complete Champion.
Easy enough.


Wild braces of natural weapons +3
This is a new one to me.

The best I can assume is that this is an out-of-slot Necklace of Natural Weapons from Savage Species... somehow with the "Wild" armor enhancement added to it so that it still functions in Wild Shape.

If this is correct, then the cost varies depending on the number of natural weapons the necklace is actually improving.

The minimum cost for a +3 necklace would be 18,000 gp, plus an additional 600 if it only affects one single natural weapon. The "Wild" enhancement is an additional +3, for 9,000 gp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm).

Per the sidebar on Body Slot affinities on the DMG, pg. 288, wondrous items have an affinity for the slot they are normally listed with. Changing it to a different slot incurs a 50% increase in total price, making this piece a minimum of 41,400 gp.


Belt of charisma +2
Charisma normally comes in cloaks, making this another out-of-affinity item. 6,000 gp.

Your total price for this character is roughly 114,575 gp. The WBL tables suggests that by level 11 you should have roughly 66,000 gp in gear, while you have more than a 13th level character has.


My lvl 15 fighter has
Belt of giant strength +4

An easy 16,000 gp. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beltofGiantStrength)


Sac of everlasting ale (replenish once a day) My fighter is sort of an alcoholic

This is essentially identical to an Everfull Mug out of the Magic Item Compendium, pg. 160.
Three times per day you can command it to fill with ale.
A steal at 200 gp.


Full plate mindarmor +3
Masterwork Full Plate carries a 1,650 gp price tag.
The Mindarmor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/armorAndShields.htm#mindarmor) enhancement is an additional 24,000.
+3 enhancement to armor is another 9,000.
The total cost for this piece is 34,600 gp.


Parrying +3 Falchion
a masterwork falchion is 375 gp.
The Parrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#parrying) enhancement is another 8,000.
A +3 enhancement is another 18,000, for a total price tag of 26,375 gp.


Tablecloth of tavern food (once per day it gives a good simple meal, regain 10HP while eating)
This is another unusual one.

Everlasting Rations, on the same page in the MiC as the mug, produce enough food to last you the whole day for only 350 gp, while this only produces one meal. On the other hand, this also heals you 10 HP, making it slightly worse than a single casting of Lesser Vigor at 1st-level. All told 350 gp is probably not at all unreasonable for such an effect.

This brings you up to a total of 77,525 gp.
Per the WBL chart, a 15th-level character should have 200,000 gp worth of gear. So this one is significantly behind the curve.



Since I'm relative new to the game I don't want to sound greedy to the DMs. So I ask it here. Are my character equipped in a way that is normal for their level?
As everyone has already said, the only thing that really matters is if you are having fun.
If you are then there isn't a problem. There's only a question if more equipment would further enhance the fun, which is something you have to bring up with the table. The only balance that matters is the balance between party members, so if everyone is equally capable and powerful the DM can simply up the relative challenge in order to compensate.


To be honest find the whole idea of a WBL a bit baffling. I’ve googled the list. It seems a bit over top to me. It does make me greedy. :)

In my experience
lvl 1 to 7 beginning adventures
lvl 8 to 15 experienced adventurers
lvl 16 to 20 seasoned adventurers maybe time to retire. Hopefully saved some money so they can spend a few years in relative luxury.

lvl 30+ kings, generals, leaders of nations. Not a lvl most players will ever reach.

"Retirement" is a very fuzzy word for adventurers. There isn't a chart that dictates how quickly one should advance in levels, nor does simply being an adventurer for any given length of time guarantee your level will increase. If a ranger spends forty years of his life doing nothing but hunting animals in the swamp, he will likely not rise above 4th-level. If a wizard heads out with an adventuring troop on a mission that turns into a globe-spanning quest to save the world, he could easily reach 15th or 16th level by the time he is 30.

If you want to gain levels, you have to take risks.

The nature of D&D 3rd Edition changes roughly every five levels or so, with significant increases in the scope of what adventurers are expected to be able to handle. A much more accurate chart was suggested at ENWorld many years ago that would instead measure the scope of power of the characters, and would probably go something like this:

Levels 1-5: Gritty Fantasy.
This is generally accepted as the approximate level of power of most of the characters in the Lord of the Rings books (from which D&D drew a lot of inspiration). PC's are comparatively fragile at this level, likely to be taken down by disease as they are by combat wounds. A trek into a kobold warren without careful preparation could easily prove fatal.

Levels 6-10: Heroic Fantasy
Most of the characters from the various campaign setting novels are somewhere in these levels. PC's are heartier and able to handle much more significant threats, but there are still plenty of dangerous places in the world. The characters are certainly heroes of their own local regions, and are starting to come to the attention of the major players in the world.

Levels 11-15: Wuxia
Named after the genre of Chinese martial arts films, PC's at this level are essentially the stuff of legends and folk tales. A single 15th-level Fighter should be expected to fend off a large retinue of soldiers by himself. The majority of fantasy anime has characters around these levels.

Levels 16-20: Superheroes
This is the pinnacle of power mere mortals can hope to achieve. As the name suggests, PC's in these levels are essentially on part with characters from any comic book. A wizard at this level could easily slaughter an entire army with little significant effort. A melee character should be expected to stand toe-to-toe with balor demons and powerful dragons. These characters are veritable gods among men, and may actually be on the cusp of godhood depending on how the narrative has played out so far.

[HouseRules]

Notice anything?

Gritty Fantasy
Heroic Fantasy (Western Heroic Fantasy)
Wuxia (Eastern Heroic Fantasy)
Superheroes
Epic (Eastern Superheroes)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Notice anything?

Gritty Fantasy
Heroic Fantasy (Western Heroic Fantasy)
Wuxia (Eastern Heroic Fantasy)
Superheroes
Epic (Eastern Superheroes)
That there's HouseRules.

[Fizban]

Actually, that should be, "if they sold all the random gear for half-price and bought everything they actually want, instead."

WBL is about half of what you'd get randomly. So everyone saying that being 50% over WBL is severely over-wealthed, no, no they are not -- unless they got to choose all their items, anyway.
Do you have a source for someone who's done all the calculations themselves? WBL is clearly constructed from the average treasure results, and the average treasure results say nothing about halving the value of magic items, so the natural assumption is that the magic items are counted at full value. The actual average results of the tables have always been a bit of an open question since they're so fiddly it'd be a pain to actually calculate the values of the magic item percentages- but unless someone has done the math, I see no reason to take this reading over the more natural one.

Bonus points if they've done the numbers for both 3.5 and 3.0, because there are a bunch of price increases and new expensive items on the 3.5 table that won't have been accounted for in the average values written in 3.0.


The minimum cost for a +3 necklace would be 18,000 gp, plus an additional 600 if it only affects one single natural weapon. The "Wild" enhancement is an additional +3, for 9,000 gp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm).
You can't just put armor properties on non-armor items. The OP has already mentioned an awareness of "wild clasping," presumably referring to Wilding Clasps that are in MiC for 4k. Building that in rather than having a separate clasp might or might not change the price. I mostly glossed over the "wild" part because it's far less important than whether the item is affecting multiple natural weapons.

[Mordante]

Per the sidebar on Body Slot affinities on the DMG, pg. 288, wondrous items have an affinity for the slot they are normally listed with. Changing it to a different slot incurs a 50% increase in total price, making this piece a minimum of 41,400 gp.

What is the purpose of affinity slots?

If some player wants a prince albert of charisma, why would that cost more or less then any other charisma item?

[Nifft]

What is the purpose of affinity slots? Probably to force you to make tough choices about what item goes in specific slots.

But the designers were bad at making these decisions interesting, and then MIC came along and allowed you to stack the important perks on top of any item, so there probably is no point any more.


If some player wants a prince albert of charisma, why would that cost more or less then any other charisma item? That sounds slotless, which would always cost more.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That sounds slotless, which would always cost more.Looks like we finally have something for the "leg" slot, to me. :smallamused:

[Fizban]

To match the thematic conventions of those who've come before, and occasionally force the players to make tradeoffs. Most of the given categories are extremely broad anyway so as long as you don't want a hat of strength of goggles of haste, you can usually describe something in a way that makes sense. Assuming you can craft it, or find someone to.

More importantly is how that call is out the player's hands in the first place. All custom items must pass DM approval, and the DM might want to lock certain types of items to certain slots to prevent doubling or tripling up on them. One of the only real features of the item slot system is that if two items require the same slot, you can't use both at the same time. So if the DM wants to make a new item and be sure it can't be used at the same time as an existing item, they can put it in the same slot. Even at the same time as the MiC canonizes folding all your flat bonuses onto other items, it introduces tons of new items focused around a few particular slots. So many nifty capes, so many nifty boots, etc, but you can only wear one at a time.

[Doctor Awkward]

What is the purpose of affinity slots?

If some player wants a prince albert of charisma, why would that cost more or less then any other charisma item?


There isn't really a definitive answer on this one. The most likely explanation, in my opinion, is they are holdovers from previous editions of Dungeons & Dragons, and the designers have kept it in place as a nod to the legacy of systems that came before.

As to why it was present in those previous editions, it's likely that the original designers, Gygax and Arneson, were drawing from popular mythology and fable like they were for everything else. Thor, for instance, wore a belt that doubled his physical strength. The seven-league boots (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven-league_boots) are widely seen in European folklore. The ring of invisibility has obvious Tolkein roots (like most of 1E D&D). The flying carpet is pulled directly from Arabian myth. The winged boots are pulled directly from the Talaria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talaria) of Greek myth. The wings of flying are clearly inspired by Frejya's Falcon Cloak. And the list goes on to infinity. Overlapping mythology is probably directly responsible for the large overlap in function of various magic items. There are items for at least three separate slots whose sole purpose is to allow you to fly.

3E as far as I know was the first edition to attempt to codify and organize these various disparate items in some kind of logical fashion, and they likely did the best they could considering what they were working with.

[Luckmann]

Ultimately, it's really just thematic convention and issues of verisimilitude. I think it can be hard to wrap your head around boots giving straight-up Charisma, or gloves giving Wisdom, and so on.

Honestly, they should probably have been stricter, and then left the issue of exceptions expressly in the hands of the GM, to be arbitrated by him in terms of what "makes sense" to everyone at a table.

[ericgrau]

At level 11? About 73 magic items. Most of them minor though.

I agree if you're having fun it's no big deal, except it can make you suffer and not have fun. So if you're not having fun because of it, I totally understand there's a good reason.

Yes 73 is a made up number. But point is D&D has a lot, and 73 including minor magic items wouldn't even make me blink. Also with the way items scale a handful of major magic items is not as good as having lots of littler ones. Especially not numerical items. So even if you do meet WBL that way or exceed it a little, it's a major nerf.

[Mordante]

This morning I send my GM a WhatsApp. Concerning WBL.

Eventhough he has been involved in D&D for over a decade as a player or GM he didn't know what WBL is. He'll look into it.

[ericgrau]

This morning I send my GM a WhatsApp. Concerning WBL.

Eventhough he has been involved in D&D for over a decade as a player or GM he didn't know what WBL is. He'll look into it.

Well, you don't really need to use WBL if you use the treasure tables. It's more help if you make up your own treasure and want to check on the sum total rather than the individual encounter amount. Even then it's only a ballpark figure.

[Mordante]

Well, you don't really need to use WBL if you use the treasure tables. It's more help if you make up your own treasure and want to check on the sum total rather than the individual encounter amount. Even then it's only a ballpark figure.

I really have no idea how my GM divides gear among players. :)

Some/most people in my party have zero idea what items are available and what they can do. Some have been playing for years and never opened a book or pdf outside of a session.

[Nifft]

Some/most people in my party have zero idea what items are available and what they can do. Some have been playing for years and never opened a book or pdf outside of a session.

So they're just playing the game and having fun, without causing internal conflict, and without having expectations that reduce their satisfaction.

That doesn't sound so bad.