Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

[Genoin]

So, I will preface by saying that I am new to 5e, having played mostly 3.5/PF. After having read the forums, it seems to me that the vast majority of times I see warlocks being mentioned it is as a 2 or 3 level dip, rather than a full single class build. Why is this? The reasons i can see with my limited knowledge of the system are

1. They appear to be styled like a full caster but only get to 5th level spells

2. The value of the first 3 levels is very disproportionate to the value of later levels.

3. I imagine games that follow the classic paradigm of the uninterrupted day followed by a long rest are problematic.

What am I missing? Is there ever really a reason (mechanically) to play a full single class warlock rather than dipping 2-3 levels?

[JNAProductions]

1) They get up to 9ths. Their 6th-9th slots are special, called Mystic Arcanum, but yeah, they get 9ths.

2) That's true of a lot of classes. The idea is that you can get your concept ready soon, rather than waiting till level 14 or whatever.

3) Yeah, that's a problem for Monks and Fighters (though Fighters to a lesser extent) too.

And yes, there is. If you have a wide variety of adventuring days, you get more spells with oomph than any other caster, as well as a lot of at-will abilities.

[Misterwhisper]

So, I will preface by saying that I am new to 5e, having played mostly 3.5/PF. After having read the forums, it seems to me that the vast majority of times I see warlocks being mentioned it is as a 2 or 3 level dip, rather than a full single class build. Why is this? The reasons i can see with my limited knowledge of the system are

1. They appear to be styled like a full caster but only get to 5th level spells

2. The value of the first 3 levels is very disproportionate to the value of later levels.

3. I imagine games that follow the classic paradigm of the uninterrupted day followed by a long rest are problematic.

What am I missing? Is there ever really a reason (mechanically) to play a full single class warlock rather than dipping 2-3 levels?

I have played in, ran, or supervised games of 5e from play test up.

A grand total of 2 times I have ever seen someone take more than 3 levels of warlock.

I have more than to 50 take warlock 2/ and leave.

Warlocks are super front loaded with all their good stuff.
Now that hexblade is out it is even more of a shove to take 2 and leave.

It is simple as this:

If you are going to be a charisma class, sorcerer, bard, paladin, some rogues, or other outside the norm builds, hexblade 2 lets you get:
Shields, light and medium armor, that is instant good ac on anyone.
Using a non-combatant stat for all offensive abilities.
Let’s you ignore str or dex depending on what you wear.
Gives you a magical, auto scaling, long range, iddisitavlr for e damage ability at will that uses your main non-combat stat for attack and damage, and gets more attacks faster than a straight fighter while only using one hand.
Let’s you refil a pair of utility slots.


However after level 2:
If you want to fight with a weapon you have multiple feat taxes to pay.
You going zero extra spell slots to use per combat until level 10.
You have no utility slots to throw around.
You must cast spells out of the highest slot even if you gain nothing. Have fun with that 5th level spell slot Shield spell.
If you get high enough to get spell over 5th, you can never change them, you can’t upcast with them, no not even using your one spell of those levels to be an upcast lower spell.
Your own class specific spells: armor of Agathys, hunger of hadar, and eldritch blast are done just as well or even better by every full caster other than you because they have more slots and can upcast a 6, 7, 8, or even 9th level armor of agathys, which you can’t do with your own spell. They can cast a 3rd level spell slot hunger of hadar and save their 4th and 5th levels for other things. You can’t, you have to spend them on a class specific spell that does not scale.

Play a straight warlock in a game with a warlock 2/ sorcerer x.

You will see mighty fast how badly they were designed.

[Nhorianscum]

So, I will preface by saying that I am new to 5e, having played mostly 3.5/PF. After having read the forums, it seems to me that the vast majority of times I see warlocks being mentioned it is as a 2 or 3 level dip, rather than a full single class build. Why is this? The reasons i can see with my limited knowledge of the system are

1. They appear to be styled like a full caster but only get to 5th level spells

2. The value of the first 3 levels is very disproportionate to the value of later levels.

3. I imagine games that follow the classic paradigm of the uninterrupted day followed by a long rest are problematic.

What am I missing? Is there ever really a reason (mechanically) to play a full single class warlock rather than dipping 2-3 levels?

9th's (but no second 6th or 7th slots) via MI.

First 2 really.

Bladelock12 is an extremely gishy gish. Some of the pact features (UA raven queen 7 being my personal favorite) are semi-entirely unique. Some folks hate multi's. Some folks want eldrich smite.

It's an extremely flawed class with some cool mechanical tricks and some great fluff. Some levels are just painful as hell single class though and it is bar none the worst casting caster.

[MaxWilson]

So, I will preface by saying that I am new to 5e, having played mostly 3.5/PF. After having read the forums, it seems to me that the vast majority of times I see warlocks being mentioned it is as a 2 or 3 level dip, rather than a full single class build. Why is this? The reasons i can see with my limited knowledge of the system are

1. They appear to be styled like a full caster but only get to 5th level spells

2. The value of the first 3 levels is very disproportionate to the value of later levels.

3. I imagine games that follow the classic paradigm of the uninterrupted day followed by a long rest are problematic.

What am I missing? Is there ever really a reason (mechanically) to play a full single class warlock rather than dipping 2-3 levels?

Personally I feel like #1 is the key factor. Sure, you get Mystic Arcana to cast 6th-9th level spells, but still, you have only one spell of each of those levels, you can't ever change them, you can't upcast anything past 5th level, etc. It doesn't really compete with the feel of a genuine archmage or archdruid or even archbard.

Therefore, if I'm going to play a warlock, it's going to be a situation where I don't really want to feel like a dedicated "full" spellcaster--when I want to feel like a gish who just happens to get some cool 6th-9th level spells on top. Therefore, warbearians are fun (Bear Totem Barb 1-3/Fiend Bladelock 1-17), because they are better Barbarians than Barbarians are; but they are not better wizards than wizards are.

But warbearians are very MAD, so they are rare. And most other warlock concepts only require 2-5 levels of warlock.

[pdegan2814]

I hate that Warlock has become a "dip class", because it has tremendous potential from a role-playing & storytelling perspective. I've come to loathe when people cherry-pick levels from front-loaded classes, with no thought to why the character would make those choices. The whole premise behind the class is striking a bargain with a very powerful & dangerous entity, I've gotta think a being like that would be pissed if the person got a few of the basics and then said "Nah, I don't need anything more from you, I'm gonna go study something else." I can't imagine too many powerful Fiends, Fey, Great Old Ones etc. would react well :)

[pdegan2814]

So, I will preface by saying that I am new to 5e, having played mostly 3.5/PF. After having read the forums, it seems to me that the vast majority of times I see warlocks being mentioned it is as a 2 or 3 level dip, rather than a full single class build. Why is this? The reasons i can see with my limited knowledge of the system are

1. They appear to be styled like a full caster but only get to 5th level spells

2. The value of the first 3 levels is very disproportionate to the value of later levels.

3. I imagine games that follow the classic paradigm of the uninterrupted day followed by a long rest are problematic.

What am I missing? Is there ever really a reason (mechanically) to play a full single class warlock rather than dipping 2-3 levels?

1. They're styled quite differently, to the point that they do not get the "Spellcasting" class feature like all the other casters get. They get "Pact Magic" instead.

2. You can make an argument for this, but they are hardly the only class you could make it for.

3. Except that isn't the "classic paradigm" for 5th Edition. A typical 5E adventuring day is meant to include Short Rests. Several classes have abilities that recharge on a Short Rest. Warlocks, Monks, Bards, Fighters, Clerics and Druids off the top of my head. If your DM doesn't allow time for Short Rests during the adventuring day, they're potentially crippling multiple members of the party.

Yes, mechanically the Warlock gains quite a bit of power from just the first few levels. But focusing solely on the mechanics of the game is missing a big part of the fun of D&D, imo.

[stoutstien]

dnd 5e is all about front loaded classes and warlock is extremely front loaded. eldritch blast alone is worth a single lv dip. one easy fix to help out pure locks

-agonizing blast is based off warlock levels character lv. so no 2 lv dip for cha to all the eldritch blast bolts.

[Foxhound438]

I prefer to frame warlock in my mind as being a "archer fighter" that is neither an archer nor a fighter. Just consistent, long ranged damage, and then you get spells which are pretty cool. The issue there is of course you get all the damage that the cantrip gives you regardless of splitting levels, so you're always getting that high round to round damage with the first two levels and can then opt to swap over to a different class for more varied benefits. It's not a "dip only" class though, you can do fine as a pure warlock, so long as you understand what you're in for- good cantrip damage, a couple of mean spells in every fight, and a lot of hyper-optimizers pretending to know how to build your character better than you with a bunch of sorcerer levels instead of having higher level spell slots coming in on schedule.

[Mr.Spastic]

So, I will preface by saying that I am new to 5e, having played mostly 3.5/PF. After having read the forums, it seems to me that the vast majority of times I see warlocks being mentioned it is as a 2 or 3 level dip, rather than a full single class build. Why is this? The reasons i can see with my limited knowledge of the system are

1. They appear to be styled like a full caster but only get to 5th level spells

2. The value of the first 3 levels is very disproportionate to the value of later levels.

3. I imagine games that follow the classic paradigm of the uninterrupted day followed by a long rest are problematic.

What am I missing? Is there ever really a reason (mechanically) to play a full single class warlock rather than dipping 2-3 levels?

As somebody who wholly loves the warlock and has played at least 7 across several level spreads, I thought I would chime in.

First things first. Multiclassing is a variant rule and could be not allowed. Most DMs I know typically don't allow it.

1. No they aren't. They are styled in their own unique way to fit their own flavor and mechanics. Sure, they don't get a lot of spells or spell slots but their class specific spells are really unique and powerful, most notably Hex. They are different from all of the other casters too in the fact that their magic is learned, innate, or granted by worshiping. They have been given magic as part of a deal with a lower level entity. Their also built as one of the most versatile classes with several unique options that allow for many different build. Calling them a "Caster" is like calling a kitchen knife a paint scraper. Sure you can scrape paint with a kitchen knife in a pinch, but that's not what it's meant for. It's meant for the many uses of a kitchen knife from cutting vegetables to crushing garlic.

2. So is every other class. The first three levels of any class have the best abilities and a subclass. Fighter gets Fighting Style and Action Surge. Rogue gets Expertise and Cunning Action. Cleric gets Channel Divinity. Paladins get Divine Smite. The only real difference is that warlocks get a lot more options to choose from that can benefit many different builds.

3. As other people have stated, 5th edition adventuring days are intended to have short rests. I tend have four or five fights in a combat heavy day and my players typically get one or two short rests. This is about the recommended amount and it really works. Your long rest dependent classes are running on empty by the end(after doing some crazy NOVAs) while your short rest classes are still doing fine. That how the game is designed.

It also pains me to see that Warlocks are seen only as a dip class on forums. High level warlocks are awesome. You get some crazy stuff, more that XGtE is out. There is some high level stuff that you wouldn't enjoy until you got their. My personal favorites are Minions of Chaos which allows you to cast Conjure Elemental using a spell slot. Grabbing all the crazy Eldritch Blast invocations so you can shove somebody 10ft from 300ft away and then lower their movement speed by 10ft while also dealing 1d10+cha damage.

Lets not forget some of the crazy subclass abilities of higher levels. Hurl Through Hell is just so fun. Create Thrall allows for some wicked shenanigans. Their are also some really fun high level spells you miss out on from the subclasses. Hallow, Seeming, Telekinesis, Banishing Smite(that you can cast at level 9), and Guardian of Faith are some fun ones of the top of my head.

Their is also the fact that several of the abilities scale with level. Like the Fiend Warlocks Temp Hp ability or Tomb of Levistus.

To round up, the point is that Warlocks are really great for multiclassing and the weird spell and power progression really only encourages it. But you have to be open to a what makes the class what it is. They are mainly Eldritch Blast spammers with a side of pact flavored shenanigans mechanically. But if you really get into it, they are one of the most versatile and unique classes in the game. They can be anything from the parties infiltrator to the guy with all of the ritual spells. They could have a familiar that's always invisible, or a epic weapon that they can summon out of thin air. And regardless of how you build the warlock, it will never be bad at blasting down enemies with Eldritch Blast. It offers you fun flavor and customization without ever sacrificing the core power of the class. In my opinion this is what makes the class so great.

P.S. You shouldn't come at the game from a purely mechanics perspective. The warlock is my favorite class to role play(if your DM runs your patron well) and can allow for tons of great characters and moments. Some examples from my characters might help your creative spark.

Octavius, my Fiend Warlock, was neutral good character who used to be an archaeologist. One day he found an ancient statue that harbored an ancient demon named Basileth. The demon was in a weakened state and struck pity in Octavius. They struck a deal that the demon would reside in Octavius but was only allowed to kill evil people. In exchange, Octavius was given access to ancient secrets of old. Their relationship was more symbiotic than most warlocks and Basileth's dependence on Octavius to survive and get around was really fun for both me and my DM. Octavius was also a pacifist and Basileth would take control of his body in combat. This would cause horns to grow that Octavius would have to shave off. He was really fun.\

Their was also Valrsyn, a Drow Celestial Warlock who was Chaotic Evil but was forced to obey the law and do good things by his patron. He made the pact in exchange for his life so he doesn't have much of a choice.

[Mr.Spastic]

Wow. I did not realize how long that was.

[ad_hoc]

Group think

[Lance Tankmen]

So, I will preface by saying that I am new to 5e, having played mostly 3.5/PF. After having read the forums, it seems to me that the vast majority of times I see warlocks being mentioned it is as a 2 or 3 level dip, rather than a full single class build. Why is this? The reasons i can see with my limited knowledge of the system are

1. They appear to be styled like a full caster but only get to 5th level spells

2. The value of the first 3 levels is very disproportionate to the value of later levels.

3. I imagine games that follow the classic paradigm of the uninterrupted day followed by a long rest are problematic.

What am I missing? Is there ever really a reason (mechanically) to play a full single class warlock rather than dipping 2-3 levels?

1) already addressed by many.

2) also address and as someone has stated some dont allow muticlassing.

3) i do gritty realism, they shine.

[Talionis]

The Warlock is front loaded. Hexblade is terribly front loaded. The fixes were good but too much was put on level one.

I also agree that Warlock feels empty after 11 when it gets its 3rd spell slot and first 6th level spell.

I wouldve made access to armor a 5th level invocation? Just something so it's not so dip able.

As for feeling empty at higher levels maybe better and more high level invocations would help.

[Mr.Spastic]

To the people who are saying that they feel "empty" at higher levels, I don't get it. You could argue that most classes feel "empty" at higher levels. Fighters only get subclass stuff past level 9 and people don't complain. It's similar for every class. If anything, the Warlock is one of the few classes that still has you picking new class features at higher level with invocations. I think that it shouldn't be a mark against the class that they follow the trend of every other class. Most high level stuff is just improvements of other things from lower levels of more spells.

[Keravath]

I think pure warlock (hexblade, pact of the blade) is likely one of the better PAM+GWM options because of the methods the spell casting and invocations allow to generate advantage on every attack. For a variant human warlock, PAM+GWM can be online by level 4 - combined with darkness+devils sight for always on advantage using a 10' reach polearm and it can do devastating damage. The barbarian can do the same with reckless attack ... but it is more vulnerable when doing this rather than less vulnerable as in the case of the warlock. Warlock will also get shadows of moil at 7th level to replace darkness+devils sight if they wish. This will significantly outdamage eldritch blast except perhaps from a sorlock using quicken.

A warlock dip adds a lot to any charisma casting class ... two invocations at level 2 are very useful along with the 2 short rest spell slots but warlock as a primary class also has a lot of appeal.

In a typical adventuring day with a couple of short rests, a high level warlock will have 6 to 8 fifth level spells to use ... in addition to their once/day mystic arcanums and 6 to 9 at will spells or bonus effects from invocations. It doesn't have the same staying power as a full caster class but it does have a lot of magical resources in addition to its other features.

[MaxWilson]

To the people who are saying that they feel "empty" at higher levels, I don't get it. You could argue that most classes feel "empty" at higher levels. Fighters only get subclass stuff past level 9 and people don't complain.

You mean level 11, and yes they do complain.

Barbarians get very little past level 5, unless they are Zealots.

[Vexacia]

If you're playing a martial Hexblade, monoclassing Warlock is just fine. You'll advance in tune with all the other martials - a bit of utility between level 5 and level 12 in Shadow of Moil and some invocation options, and a level late but still relatively on time at level 12 you'll get a massive damage boost from Lifedrinker that will keep you competitive with the primary martials that just got their level 11 martial boost. After Lifedrinker and Master of Hexes, you still have all your Mystic Arcanums to look forward to - very underwhelming for a pure caster, but very exciting for you because you focused on your martial ability.

If you're playing a caster anything Warlock... yes, Warlock is a dip only class. There's like 2 or 3 extremely niche things a Warlock can do that a Sorlock can't, and to make matters worse those niche advantages only apply in very narrow level ranges - for everything else, a Sorlock is entirely superior to a Warlock. Throwing more garbage on what's already a flaming garbage pile, the Warlock spell list is mediocre at best even compared to the Sorcerer, not even propped up by its unique Warlock-only spells. If Wizards of the Coast had any foresight, they would've made Eldritch Blast and Hex both Warlock class features that scaled with Warlock level rather than having EB scale on cantrip dice and Hex be usable by anyone that can dip into it. Too late for that now, though. At least martial Warlocks are great post-Xanathar's - go play one of those.

[Mr.Spastic]

If you're playing a caster anything Warlock... yes, Warlock is a dip only class. There's like 2 or 3 extremely niche things a Warlock can do that a Sorlock can't, and to make matters worse those niche advantages only apply in very narrow level ranges - for everything else, a Sorlock is entirely superior to a Warlock. Throwing more garbage on what's already a flaming garbage pile, the Warlock spell list is mediocre at best even compared to the Sorcerer, not even propped up by its unique Warlock-only spells. If Wizards of the Coast had any foresight, they would've made Eldritch Blast and Hex both Warlock class features that scaled with Warlock level rather than having EB scale on cantrip dice and Hex be usable by anyone that can dip into it. Too late for that now, though. At least martial Warlocks are great post-Xanathar's - go play one of those.

But warlock aren't meant to be "casters." They are perfectly functional at doing other things that a sorlock can't do. There are a lot of great invocations that you won't be able to get if you just take a dip of warlock. You can get things like infinit detect magic or conjure elemental. I think you want them to be a "caster" but thats not their design. Their built for casting low level abilities infinitely not getting crazy insane magic abilities.

[Vexacia]

But warlock aren't meant to be "casters." They are perfectly functional at doing other things that a sorlock can't do. There are a lot of great invocations that you won't be able to get if you just take a dip of warlock. You can get things like infinit detect magic or conjure elemental. I think you want them to be a "caster" but thats not their design. Their built for casting low level abilities infinitely not getting crazy insane magic abilities.

It really doesn't matter how much you twist and contort and attempt to make an ugly runt seem like a prize hog - it's still a runt at the end of the day.

The comparative usefulness granted by having the bulk of your levels (all but 2 or 3) in Sorcerer far outweighs anything additional higher level invocations grant in all but extremely niche circumstances, as I said in the post you quoted but decided not to read.

[Mr.Spastic]

I read it, but I don't agree with it. I'm saying it's more powerful than a Multiclass or that it is better. I just don't think you should say it is bad because you want it to be something else. If you play the game only thinking about the "power" of the classes your missing half of the game. Warlocks will never be stronger or better than a multiclass but that doesn't mean they are bad. Warlocks are not meant to be your power house casters and if you come to them looking for that your going to be dissapointed.

[Callak_Remier]

So, I will preface by saying that I am new to 5e, having played mostly 3.5/PF. After having read the forums, it seems to me that the vast majority of times I see warlocks being mentioned it is as a 2 or 3 level dip, rather than a full single class build. Why is this? The reasons i can see with my limited knowledge of the system are

1. They appear to be styled like a full caster but only get to 5th level spells

2. The value of the first 3 levels is very disproportionate to the value of later levels.

3. I imagine games that follow the classic paradigm of the uninterrupted day followed by a long rest are problematic.

What am I missing? Is there ever really a reason (mechanically) to play a full single class warlock rather than dipping 2-3 levels?

Warlock 1-20 is just fine. They are the dominant low level caster with most of thier utility up front.
Hence the Level dips.
Anyone else who complains is either complaining about game pacing or misguided

[Misterwhisper]

Warlock 1-20 is just fine. They are the dominant low level caster with most of thier utility up front.
Hence the Level dips.
Anyone else who complains is either complaining about game pacing or misguided

If the dm has to tailor the game pacing so your class does not suck, your class sucks.

The guidelines for an adventuring day is 2 shorts and a long, but many dms don’t bother. Many dms also think they make the challenge harder to limit rests, all that does is make warlock unplayable but only unconvince a monk, everyone else will be fine.

Warlock should never have been a caster class at all, but mike mearls wanted to carry it over from 4e instead of 3.5.

[Potato_Priest]

To jump into the game pacing thing- I completely agree with those who have said it’s bad that the DM has to specifically tailor the adventuring day to make things not suck. If all classes had all their ability recharges based off a single type of rest, DMs could use any pacing they wanted, from gritty realism with 5 encounters/day to the 5 minute adventuring day without mucking up balance too bad. This is from my perspective one of the fundamental design problems with 5e.

Warlocks are often seen as bad because the 5-minute adventuring day happens to be a more popular non-advised rest schedule than lots of encounters with few rests, but if the opposite were the case people would be grieving the plight of the barbarian and the sorceror rather than the monk and the warlock. This doesn’t mean that the 5-minute adventuring day is badwrongfun, just that the game is poorly built to handle diverse pacing preferences.

[Mr.Spastic]

If the dm has to tailor the game pacing so your class does not suck, your class sucks.

If you don't factor in you players choices, or actively make choices that hurt their characters, that kind of makes you a bad DM. I'm not saying that it's your job as a DM to cater to your players, but if you run the game without considering your players characters and choices you are probably going to have players who wont like playing your game. The players and the DM are supposed to communicate before the game starts so problems don't occur. The classic example is the player who made a dumb fighter with no charisma and then shows up to the table and the DMs starts the game and it's all intrigue and social interaction. If you want to play a warlock and you tell your dm, most likely they will be willing to throw in extra opportunities for short rests and be mindful of the fact that you character is built around them. If you tell your players that you don't plan on allowing short rests then most of them would be okay with that. As long as it comes before they show up with their warlock or monk or fighter.

The game rules are designed around the standard 2 short rests per 1 long rest anyways. It's not that the DM has to cater to the class, but more that the intended game style supports the class in the first place. Its not even hard to implement. Combat isn't as long as people think it is sometimes. I have run a two hour session with three combats and they only took about 15 minutes each. The rest was exploring and interaction. They got one short rest in there at which they healed and the fighter got some great stuff back. It went really smoothly and the constant variation on gameplay kept my player engaged too.

[jiriku]

I have played warlocks as high as 18th level. They work great. There are many character concepts for which a warlock/something else multiclass is the best mechanical way to express the concept. There are many other concepts for which a pure warlock is the best way. There's been a single-class warlock in almost every party in every campaign I've ever played or DM'd in 5th edition, and the warlock has always pulled its weight and fit well with the group. I've never heard any players in any of my gaming groups every express dissatisfaction with any of their warlock characters.

[Trustypeaches]

If I were to redesign the warlock, I would (A) make eldritch blast and hex class features, not spells and (B) make more powerful high level invocations.

[Mjolnirbear]

The value in a lock isn't his casting. It's his versatility.

The party is Sorcerer, Paladin, Fighter, Warlock. As warlock, you can:
* be a primary healer via celestial patron
* be a melee damage via hexblade
* be a ritual caster via Tome
* be a diplomat, spy, impersonator, or thief
* serve as secondary or primary controller (eldritch blast invocations and utility spells)
* be the magic detector, or other weird things a warlock does best
* be the best archer ever

And most of those roles aren't exclusive. Weirdly, a warlock should be viewed like the bard; hardly required, but able to complement just about any party role needed.

[Tetrasodium]

Warlock is a pretty good class on its own, the problem is that warlock is a frontloaded charisma based class that when dipped by other front loaded charisma based classes you effectively gain a multiplicative/logarithmic power bump and simultaneously create a loophole in the limited spell selection those frontloaded charisma based classes have. WotC took till just a week or so ago to errata the fact that invocations intended for an 15 level warlock should clearly not be available to a sorcerer 13 warlock 2, but they still failed to errata any of the other glaring problems like eldritch blast +agonizing blast being the equivalent of heavy crossbow+crossbow expert feat +being able to scale extra attacks based on character level rather than class level.. repelling blast being able to put leveled crowd control spells to shame ... etc.

For whatever reason, warlock had a wildly different design philosophy than the other classes (many of those invocations are literally bonus feats that other classes could pick in the past like warlocks get invocations). Couple that with what seems to have been a failure to perform much if any sanity checking on warlock & you have the current mess.

[Vexacia]

The value in a lock isn't his casting. It's his versatility.

The party is Sorcerer, Paladin, Fighter, Warlock. As warlock, you can:
* be a primary healer via celestial patron
* be a melee damage via hexblade
* be a ritual caster via Tome
* be a diplomat, spy, impersonator, or thief
* serve as secondary or primary controller (eldritch blast invocations and utility spells)
* be the magic detector, or other weird things a warlock does best
* be the best archer ever

And most of those roles aren't exclusive. Weirdly, a warlock should be viewed like the bard; hardly required, but able to complement just about any party role needed.

But barring martial Hexblade (a decidedly non-spellcaster-oriented build and an actually-good build at that, unlike caster-oriented Warlock), a Sorlock does all of this and does it better. That's the problem. The thread you're in is literally titled "Is Warlock a dip only class in general" and all but one of your criteria is either satisfied or satisficed by a Warlock dip attached to a real primary caster. And that sole exception as I said both in this post and earlier in this thread is indeed the only proper use case for a monoclass Warlock that isn't strictly superseded by a Warlock dip.

Warlock doesn't have the resources to exercise this much-vaunted versatility, and everyone singing its praises in this fashion always conveniently fails to acknowledge that.

[LudicSavant]

Warlock is a pretty good class on its own

Warlock 1-20 is just fine.

I have played warlocks as high as 18th level. They work great.

To echo what several others have already said by this point:

Don't let the groupthink fool you; straight class Warlocks are good.

Let's try an example:


Let's say you just hit level 5 with a bog-standard blaster fiend/tomelock. The multiclass guy doesn't even have third level spell slots yet. In fact they might not even have an ASI yet. You, on the other hand, can toss out 6 fireballs in a standard adventuring day (vs a Wizard's 3). And you have 19 AC, because it only took 1 half-feat for you to get there, unlike the other arcane casters (who usually don't qualify due to lack of light armor). And you have a constantly regenerating 9 temp HP buffer. And you have an Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Blast knocking people around 20 feet at a time for healthy damage and good CC. And you have cantrips and rituals known from every class.

So here you are, riding around on your Phantom Steed, knocking people back with Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Blasts with an 8-hour Hex, and half of the Monster Manual can't even get in range to fight you in any meaningful capacity if you have space to maneuver. And if they can get in on you, you have 19 AC, regenerating temp HP, and tools like Shillelagh/Booming Blade or, you know, your actual spell slots.

Also, in a real game, you basically can get long-term buffs for free. Start your morning by casting Hex then take a short rest... it'll be there for 7 hours after you get up (or 23 hours later on).


It's not just at level 5 either. You just keep gettin' better.

Dark One's Own Luck at 6 gives you an average +5.5 to saving throws or ability checks (LIKE INITIATIVE) when you need it, and you do it after seeing the initial roll. And you do that once every short rest! This puts abilities like Indomitable to shame. Heck, you can even combine it with the fact that you get Guidance for another +2.5 (on average) to your Initiative. Maybe toss on Alert since you've got extra ASIs over those multiclassing folks. So here I am with an average of +16 to initiative (and I only have to blow a resource if I see that someone else rolled higher than me). And I can use my stealth and social skills to try to maneuver myself into situations where I can get Surprise, so that I can go twice before Team Monster does, with all of my blasting potential, so that the enemy is dead before anyone else even acts.

Fiendish Resilience at 10 gives you resistance against whatever damage type you want. And you can change what type it is not even every long rest, but every short rest. As if you weren't already resilient enough for a caster.

And then at 14 you get Hurl Through Hell. If any of your Eldritch Blasts hit, you can just tack on an extra 10d10 psychic damage and, even more importantly, Banish them with no save for a round. Goodbye, Legendary Resistance boss fight! It's only once per day but it doesn't need to be any more than that. This is a straight up boss-killer.

By high levels, you're swimming in resources. 8 Invocations. An Eldritch Blast that's better CC and damage than some actual spell slots from other classes. 4 5th level spell slots. 1 6th level, 1 7th level, 1 8th level, and 1 9th level. 7 cantrips known. Hurl Through Hell. Every ritual. And that's all before you take a single short rest.


So yeah. The Warlock dip builds are good, but that doesn't preclude the single-classed Warlock from also being good.

[Cerefel]

But barring martial Hexblade (a decidedly non-spellcaster-oriented build and an actually-good build at that, unlike caster-oriented Warlock), a Sorlock does all of this and does it better. That's the problem. The thread you're in is literally titled "Is Warlock a dip only class in general" and all but one of your criteria is either satisfied or satisficed by a Warlock dip attached to a real primary caster. And that sole exception as I said both in this post and earlier in this thread is indeed the only proper use case for a monoclass Warlock that isn't strictly superseded by a Warlock dip.

Warlock doesn't have the resources to exercise this much-vaunted versatility, and everyone singing its praises in this fashion always conveniently fails to acknowledge that.

Even if a multiclass build does all of those things better, that wouldn't make a full warlock any less functional in an adventuring party. Even if there's a more optimal build, straight warlock is perfectly viable and plenty of fun. Though for the record, I do think some of those roles are better filled by a pure warlock.

[JakOfAllTirades]

1) They get up to 9ths. Their 6th-9th slots are special, called Mystic Arcanum, but yeah, they get 9ths.

2) That's true of a lot of classes. The idea is that you can get your concept ready soon, rather than waiting till level 14 or whatever.

3) Yeah, that's a problem for Monks and Fighters (though Fighters to a lesser extent) too.

And yes, there is. If you have a wide variety of adventuring days, you get more spells with oomph than any other caster, as well as a lot of at-will abilities.

This is exactly what I was going to say, so thank you.

[Astofel]

If warlock was a dip-only class they wouldn't have made 20 levels of it.

Beyond that I can really only echo what others have said. All the warlocks I've played and seen in play have performed fine, they are perfectly apt at performing their role. Not sure why sorlocks also being able to do the same things is relevant, they're still part warlock after all and it's not like even other classes aren't allowed to overlap in Things They Can Do. Plus a lot of the sorlock's infamous power comes from a broken exploit that will cause many DMs to question your place at their table.

[Zalabim]

But barring martial Hexblade (a decidedly non-spellcaster-oriented build and an actually-good build at that, unlike caster-oriented Warlock), a Sorlock does all of this and does it better. That's the problem. The thread you're in is literally titled "Is Warlock a dip only class in general" and all but one of your criteria is either satisfied or satisficed by a Warlock dip attached to a real primary caster. And that sole exception as I said both in this post and earlier in this thread is indeed the only proper use case for a monoclass Warlock that isn't strictly superseded by a Warlock dip.

Warlock doesn't have the resources to exercise this much-vaunted versatility, and everyone singing its praises in this fashion always conveniently fails to acknowledge that.

* be a primary healer via celestial patron
* be a ritual caster via Tome
* be a diplomat, spy, impersonator, or thief
* serve as secondary or primary controller (eldritch blast invocations and utility spells)
* be the magic detector, or other weird things a warlock does best

I'm pretty sure all of these are better done by the single-classed warlock too. You need to actually provide proof for your theory, not just repeat your hypothesis.

[Mjolnirbear]

But barring martial Hexblade (a decidedly non-spellcaster-oriented build and an actually-good build at that, unlike caster-oriented Warlock), a Sorlock does all of this and does it better. That's the problem. The thread you're in is literally titled "Is Warlock a dip only class in general" and all but one of your criteria is either satisfied or satisficed by a Warlock dip attached to a real primary caster. And that sole exception as I said both in this post and earlier in this thread is indeed the only proper use case for a monoclass Warlock that isn't strictly superseded by a Warlock dip.

Warlock doesn't have the resources to exercise this much-vaunted versatility, and everyone singing its praises in this fashion always conveniently fails to acknowledge that.

You may not have noticed, but a dip only gives you two or three invocations. You can choose one of my examples and do well with a dip, or you can choose two and do it adequately, or you can stay in the class, do multiple roles brilliantly, and adjust to further roles as needed throughout your adventuring career.

Sure, your sorcerer can dip lock and pick up agonizing and repelling. It makes him better at cantrips for sure, gives him more resources on a short rest, at the cost of an ASI and a delay in spell level advancement. But if the sorcerer in my theoretical party did that, the warlock can choose hexblade (assuming character creation post-level 2). Or if the character subclass is locked in, he can switch: be a mighty morphing power scout, or get one of the better Oh-**** buttons (Tomb of Leviticus). Or he could have a permanent damage Aura, make his curses more serious and more flexible, cast spells at will, become Sir intrigues-a-lot with disguise self, or other things. And the warlock can adjust if the campaign changes; he can switch invocations every level.

Warlock is the only class with this versatility, and you lose it when you dip. As with all class dips, you can snag some great stuff. You say the warlock doesn't have the resources for this, and you're wrong; only the warlock has resources for this. The warlock dip, however, is stuck with his dip, useful though it may be.

A dip can help with your chosen role. Your sorlock wants to be a better archer, so dips. Or he wants free disguise self, so dips. A fighter dip can make a better caster, because action surge. A barbarian dip can make a better moon druid, cause rage. A rogue dip can make a better valour bard swashbuckler (theme, not subclass). A wizard dip adds ritual casting and some of the best spells available.

A dip can help a character concept, and the warlocks bag of fun tricks can help a lot of varied concepts. It's great for dipping and literally no one would argue otherwise. But saying it's only good for dipping is doing the class a severe disservice.

[LudicSavant]

The party is Sorcerer, Paladin, Fighter, Warlock. As warlock, you can:
* be a primary healer via celestial patron
* be a melee damage via hexblade
* be a ritual caster via Tome
* be a diplomat, spy, impersonator, or thief
* serve as secondary or primary controller (eldritch blast invocations and utility spells)
* be the magic detector, or other weird things a warlock does best
* be the best archer ever

And most of those roles aren't exclusive.
Just to emphasize your point further...

I see your most, and raise you all! :smallsmile:

Celestial Generalist
https://i.postimg.cc/5211V7NS/radiant-cleric-of-pelor-by-grandanvil.jpg
VHuman Celestial Tomelock 12
20 Cha / 16 Dex / 16 Con
Moderately Armored (+1 Dex) / +4 Cha (ASIs) / War Caster

Cantrips: Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade, Eldritch Blast, Mage Hand, Shillelagh, Shape Water (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?481560-Creative-Cantrips-Shape-Water), Guidance, Light, Sacred Flame (Yes, they know 9 Cantrips; 4 base, 2 Celestial, 3 Tome).

Spells: Cure Wounds, Greater Restoration, Revivify, Hellish Rebuke, Synaptic Static, Thunder Step, Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell, Armor of Agathys, Hex, Misty Step, Mass Suggestion

Invocations: Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, Book of Ancient Secrets, Eldritch Sight, Mask of Many Faces, Maddening Hex


Let's go down the checklist!

HEALER? You've got Healing Light (which is like 13 Healing Words a day, or a lesser number of bonus action burst heals), the various status-removal spells, and Revivify. That's pretty much all the important bases. You also can take advantage of your short-rest recharge healing to make the party's breaks more efficient.

DIPLOMAT/SPY/IMPERSONATOR? You have 20 Charisma, the proper proficiencies, Guidance, and Disguise Self at-will (which doesn't even use your Concentration, so you're totally using it in dungeon situations too to surprise or confuse people). Oh, and Mass Suggestion.

THIEF? You can teleport, impersonate easily, have 16 Dex + proficiency in the proper skills, and are the magic detector (I find this comes up a lot when doing second story work). There are also some fun thievery tricks you can do with Shape Water and Mage Hand.

MAGIC DETECTOR? Yep, you've got Eldritch Sight.

RITUAL CASTER? Yep, you've got access to every class's rituals from Book of Ancient Secrets.

ARCHER? You've got a 24-hour Hex and an Eldritch Blast that does 3d10+3d6+15, plus a 30 foot knockback (with no size limit, unlike most knockbacks), and Maddening Hex for a guaranteed-hit 5 damage AoE on top of that. You can just dish out that 47 damage all day. And have fun playing pinball (knock enemy into another enemy, then use the Maddening Hex AoE).

MELEE? You have the AC of a dex fighter, a bonus action heal better than Second Wind, Armor of Agathys, Shillelagh, and Green-Flame Blade that gets buffed by Radiant Soul and your 24-hour Hex. Oh, and War Caster, so if they try to move past you, they get a Booming Blade OA for 6d8+5 (or perhaps something spending an actual spell slot). You also get 16 temp hp every short rest from Celestial Resilience (and your teammates get some too). And if somehow they get through all of that and you need to get out of dodge, you can use Thunder Step to damage them, get out, and rescue a teammate while you're at it!

Someone attacking you in melee could take 25 damage per melee hit from AoA, then take 6d10+5 (38) from Hellish Rebuke, then get whacked by Green-Flame Blade for 3d8+1d6+10 (27) and another 3d8+5 (18.5) to the person standing next to them. Oh, and you have a familiar, so you can make that attack with Advantage.

CONTROLLER? You've got Synaptic Static, Hypnotic Pattern, Mass Suggestion, and 30 foot knockback on your Eldritch Blast. Oh, and moving past you in melee provokes nasty War Caster OAs.

[Mr.Spastic]

The healing dice recharge on a long rest but other than that you got everything right. This is the perfect example of what mkaes warlocks good.

[Callak_Remier]

If the dm has to tailor the game pacing so your class does not suck, your class sucks.

The guidelines for an adventuring day is 2 shorts and a long, but many dms don’t bother..

Ill be honest i have heard this arguement and its garbage. I don't see anyone polling Dm's about thier style of pacing. Most i have asked keep 2-3 short rests per long.( due to sample size i can't make assumptions about the broader community)
Truth is Pacing Varies to suite the Plot & Characters in it.

I have a straight Warlock in My campaign as the only Arcane caster and i hear no complaints from him.

I am of the Mind that Those who complain about the Warlocks Power Level Want to Have the Best of Both Worlds
Upfront Powerful Early levels that Scales to obscene levels of Power with no Draw backs.

The Class plays Thematically appropriate.

Trade your soul for Power only to ultimately find out you didnt get quite the Deal you wanted.

[Misterwhisper]

Ill be honest i have heard this arguement and its garbage. I don't see anyone polling Dm's about thier style of pacing. Most i have asked keep 2-3 short rests per long.( due to sample size i can't make assumptions about the broader community)
Truth is Pacing Varies to suite the Plot & Characters in it.

I have a straight Warlock in My campaign as the only Arcane caster and i hear no complaints from him.

I am of the Mind that Those who complain about the Warlocks Power Level Want to Have the Best of Both Worlds
Upfront Powerful Early levels that Scales to obscene levels of Power with no Draw backs.

The Class plays Thematically appropriate.

Trade your soul for Power only to ultimately find out you didnt get quite the Deal you wanted.

If you play or run a game that regularly has two short rests per long rest you are very lucky.

Also if the theme of the class is appropriate as you say that you made a deal for power but did not get it, that kind of proves my point.

If a game follows the SSL resting cycle, then yes Warlocks are fine, maybe on the weaker side of combats last a while but they are good.

Nobody else looses so drastic an amount of their class power from missing a short rest as much as warlocks do.

As far as my sample size goes, which is rather large, either the dm purpously uses optional rules to help out the warlock, like short rests being 10 mins and can be done while walking, or as much more common, it is just the 15MAD because they don’t want to write down that many encounters to deal with.

[Mr.Spastic]

Nobody else looses so drastic an amount of their class power from missing a short rest as much as warlocks do.

They really don't though. Eldritch Blast with Agonizing blast is comparative to a fighter with a heavy crossbow and crossbow expert. They can choose to get that for free at all times.

Also where are you getting your info on how many rests DMs give. As others have said there is no conclusive polls and the general consensus almost everybody on this thread has stated that DMs tend to run rests depending on the characters.

[jdolch]

They really don't though. Eldritch Blast with Agonizing blast is comparative to a fighter with a heavy crossbow and crossbow expert. They can choose to get that for free at all times.

And that is exactly the reason that dipping Warlock is so popular. You get most of their good stuff in 2-3 levels. Everything after that is weaker than if you would just multiclass something else, like sorcerer.

[Mr.Spastic]

And that is exactly the reason that dipping Warlock is so popular. You get most of their good stuff in 2-3 levels. Everything after that is weaker than if you would just multiclass something else, like sorcerer.

Just because it is weaker doesn't make it bad. Sure, you won't have the same power as the multiclass into sorcerer. Nobody is trying to argue that. The point that we are trying to get across is that they are not bad just because you can make something stronger by multiclassing. They have many things that still make them viable and fun at higher levels. Warlocks are the weird quirky character with a lot of fun stuff that you can completely miss out on if you just dismiss them past level 3.

Edit: We get why it's popular, that's not the point of the thread. The point is to discuss the merits of staying a single class Warlock or only dipping. Which some of us are actually doing and backing up with evidence.

[LudicSavant]

The healing dice recharge on a long rest but other than that you got everything right. This is the perfect example of what mkaes warlocks good.

Thanks, but... I already said that the healing dice recharge were per day, though? :smallconfused:

[Mr.Spastic]

Thanks, but... I already said that the healing dice recharge were per day, though? :smallconfused:

I read the part about taking advantage of short rest recharge healing and misinterpreted. You were refering to the spells. My bad. Great build though.

[LudicSavant]

I read the part about taking advantage of short rest recharge healing and misinterpreted. You were refering to the spells. My bad. Great build though.

Ah, yeah. I was referring to the fact that they basically get 15d8+15 healing per hour of downtime, just from Cure Wounds. It's one of the nifty benefits of having a heal spell, even one like Cure Wounds, on a short rest recharge.

Anyways, glad you like the build! :smallsmile:

[jdolch]

Just because it is weaker doesn't make it bad. Sure, you won't have the same power as the multiclass into sorcerer. Nobody is trying to argue that. The point that we are trying to get across is that they are not bad just because you can make something stronger by multiclassing. They have many things that still make them viable and fun at higher levels. Warlocks are the weird quirky character with a lot of fun stuff that you can completely miss out on if you just dismiss them past level 3.

Edit: We get why it's popular, that's not the point of the thread. The point is to discuss the merits of staying a single class Warlock or only dipping. Which some of us are actually doing and backing up with evidence.

To be honest I have no Idea who "We" and "Us" is. The OP did ask a question that was answered. Frankly i find a quite a bit strange that you, after just creating your "Power Gamer ruining Discussion" Thread, do the exact same thing here that you denounce there. Why the antagonism? Nobody is trying to steal your Lunch.

Yes, of course you can play Warlock to 20. Nobody said you cannot. But the original question was:

What am I missing? Is there ever really a reason (mechanically) to play a full single class warlock rather than dipping 2-3 levels? And the answer to that Question is: No, there is almost never a mechanical reason to play a single class warlock. But the Warlock is not weak by any means and you can play it single class to great effect. The reason most people don't, is because it is mechanically weaker than certain multiclasses, while offering arguably no real benefit in return. BTW: Everything you can roleplay with a Warlock20 you can also roleplay with a Warlock3/Sorcerer17.

Do you have to multiclass? No, of course not. If you want to play a pure Warlock then do that. It still has nothing to do with the Question the OP asked. But good job getting triggered and creating some mysterious US vs Them Conflict out of thin air.

[Trustypeaches]

I feel that Hex and Eldritch Blast should be class features rather than spells so some investment is necessary.

I would also make the higher level invocations more appealing. Maybe invocations that grant you new spells allow you to cast said spells once per long rest without a spell slot (similar to a racial).

[LudicSavant]

There's actually some very good mechanical reasons not to go Warlock 3 / Sorcerer 17, especially if coffeelocking is disallowed (which, with the new sage advice on coffeelocks, you can expect to be an even more common ruling than it already is).

If you go War 3 and then go into Sorcerer, you don't get an ASI until level 7. You don't get a third level spell slot until level 8. You miss out on various invocation combos and Warlock strategies that the Sorlock actually can't do. And because Rod of the Pact Keeper is a thing, and DC20+ spell saves are great with things like Banishment.

[jdolch]

There's actually some very good mechanical reasons not to go Warlock 3 / Sorcerer 17, especially if coffeelocking is disallowed (which, with the new sage advice on coffeelocks, you can expect to be an even more common a ruling than it already is).

If you go War 3 and then go into Sorcerer, you don't get an ASI until level 7. You don't get a third level spell slot until level 8. You miss out on various invocation combos and Warlock strategies that the Sorlock actually can't do. And because Rod of the Pact Keeper is a thing, and DC20+ spell saves are great with things like Banishment.

Either we make a complete list of pros and cons or we don't, but this is neither here nor there.

[Zalabim]

And the answer to that Question is: No, there is almost never a mechanical reason to play a single class warlock. But the Warlock is not weak by any means and you can play it single class to great effect. The reason most people don't, is because it is mechanically weaker than certain multiclasses, while offering arguably no real benefit in return. BTW: Everything you can roleplay with a Warlock20 you can also roleplay with a Warlock3/Sorcerer17.
But that's wrong. The answer is yes, unless there is literally never, not almost never. We can quibble on the almost never too.

Either we make a complete list of pros and cons or we don't, but this is neither here nor there.
If there are any unique pros on the warlock side, and there are, then the argument is already settled. There are reasons to take single-classed warlock. Like better hit dice, higher powered patron features, more ASI, earlier access to higher leveled spells, more invocations, greater sustainable capability, and access to warlock spells not on the sorcerer list.

[mephnick]

If you play or run a game that regularly has two short rests per long rest you are very lucky.

Is it "lucky" to have a DM that has read and understands the system, or a base requirement?

[jdolch]

But that's wrong. The answer is yes, unless there is literally never, not almost never. We can quibble on the almost never too.

If there are any unique pros on the warlock side, and there are, then the argument is already settled. There are reasons to take single-classed warlock. Like better hit dice, higher powered patron features, more ASI, earlier access to higher leveled spells, more invocations, greater sustainable capability, and access to warlock spells not on the sorcerer list.

God, you people are exhausting.

Fact one: Almost nobody plays pure Warlocks.

Fact two: There is a good (mechanical) reason for that.

If you don't want to accept that, fine. That's really your problem, not mine. Have a nice day.

[Misterwhisper]

Is it "lucky" to have a DM that has read and understands the system, or a base requirement?

Considering how few use 2 short rests a day, yes.

[Daphne]

Fact one: Almost nobody plays pure Warlocks.


Nice anecdotal you got there.

[Unoriginal]

Fact one: Almost nobody plays pure Warlocks.

Please provide datas as evidence to back this claim.

Also please explain why "almost no one does X" has any incidence on the quality of doing X.



Fact two: There is a good (mechanical) reason for that.


Please provide datas demonstrating this reason.

[MThurston]

For role playing purposes, you have come to an agreement with something. Why wouldnt you ride the lightning?

[Willie the Duck]

Fact
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouKeepUsingThatWord)

[Misterwhisper]

For role playing purposes, you have come to an agreement with something. Why wouldnt you rise the lightning?

Huh?

Nowhere does it say that YOU have to have made a deal.

You could be a descendent of some otherworldly power.
Your parents could have made a deal for family power and bartered their first born for it.
You could have been blessed with it as a chosen one.

Your source of power does not have to be all negative or just a plot hook for your DM to screw you over later if they feel like it.

[MThurston]

Huh?

Nowhere does it say that YOU have to have made a deal.

You could be a descendent of some otherworldly power.
Your parents could have made a deal for family power and bartered their first born for it.
You could have been blessed with it as a chosen one.

Your source of power does not have to be all negative or just a plot hook for your DM to screw you over later if they feel like it.

You have made a deal.

It's how Warlock opens.

Otherworldly Patron
At 1st level, you have struck a bargain with an otherworldly being of your choice, such as The Fiend. Your choice grants you features at 1st level and again at 6th, 10th, and 14th level.

Pretty much says ride the lightning.

[Willie the Duck]

You have made a deal.

It's how Warlock opens.

Otherworldly Patron
At 1st level, you have struck a bargain with an otherworldly being of your choice, such as The Fiend. Your choice grants you features at 1st level and again at 6th, 10th, and 14th level.

Pretty much says ride the lightning.

No, it says you made the deal. Riding the lightning is entirely optional. Making a bargain, then trying to figure out how to beat the bargain (possibly with the moral that doing so is impossible) is exactly the nature of the stories upon which the class was built.

[JakOfAllTirades]

To be honest I have no Idea who "We" and "Us" is. The OP did ask a question that was answered. Frankly i find a quite a bit strange that you, after just creating your "Power Gamer ruining Discussion" Thread, do the exact same thing here that you denounce there. Why the antagonism? Nobody is trying to steal your Lunch.

Yes, of course you can play Warlock to 20. Nobody said you cannot. But the original question was:
And the answer to that Question is: No, there is almost never a mechanical reason to play a single class warlock. But the Warlock is not weak by any means and you can play it single class to great effect. The reason most people don't, is because it is mechanically weaker than certain multiclasses, while offering arguably no real benefit in return. BTW: Everything you can roleplay with a Warlock20 you can also roleplay with a Warlock3/Sorcerer17.

Do you have to multiclass? No, of course not. If you want to play a pure Warlock then do that. It still has nothing to do with the Question the OP asked. But good job getting triggered and creating some mysterious US vs Them Conflict out of thin air.

The obvious solution here is to get rid of multi classing; then we wouldn't have these ridiculous arguments over and over again.

[MThurston]

The obvious solution here is to get rid of multi classing; then we wouldn't have these ridiculous arguments over and over again.

It's really about power gaming. It's the reason I will never allow PAM.

[Ganders]

To reply to the OP,


...
1. They appear to be styled like a full caster but only get to 5th level spells
...
What am I missing?

What you (and many people) are missing is that they're not just a full caster. If you take away all the spell slots from a wizard or sorcerer, they'll be pretty near useless; maybe a half-decent cantrip. But a warlock with no spell slots, while diminished a bit, still has a lot going for them during the rest of the day. Cantrips and invocations to start with. Quite often, armor and the ability to use weapons with CHA instead of STR or DEX. And then the all-so-important boon (all-rituals, super-familiar, or super-weapon).

BTW, warlocks aren't the only caster class that should be viewed this way. Without their spell slots, bards still have inspiration, druids still have shapechange, clerics still have armor and channel divinity, and all three have better armor/weapon options than wizards. But I'd argue those are minor compared to what warlocks get.

And in practice, there are some sneaky things that support warlocks too... for instance, warlocks are the only class that can get a magic item to make all their spells harder to resist (aside from homebrew). And I believe CHA is the only stat that can be raised above 20 in any of the standard WOTC-published adventures.

[Mjolnirbear]

God, you people are exhausting.

Fact one: Almost nobody plays pure Warlocks.

Fact two: There is a good (mechanical) reason for that.

If you don't want to accept that, fine. That's really your problem, not mine. Have a nice day.

Am I the only one that read "Screw you guys, I'm going home" in Cartman's voice here?

[Willie the Duck]

Am I the only one that read "Screw you guys, I'm going home" in Cartman's voice here?

Cartman left slowly enough for the others to make responses if they wanted. This had much more of a 'real brave/talks real tough while running away' vibe to it. I've definitely stated to someone that they were absolutely too exhausting to continue dealing with, but I never pretended it was a moral victory on my part, or whatever this was.

[The1exile]

Just chiming in to say I played single class Fiendlock in a campaign for years, 1-20 and up to several epic boons, and I enjoyed it the whole time. Repelling blast, agonising blast and grasp of Hadar made me feel like a mix between the ranged dps that warlock always is and and old school 4e controller with the at will ability to reshape the battlefield. And when the moment was right, the enemies were lined up and had wasted time and actions dashing to overcome the eldritch barrage, a well placed fireball, fear or (especially) command would make me feel like the godliest god wizard who ever wizarded.

[pdegan2814]

God, you people are exhausting.

Fact one: Almost nobody plays pure Warlocks.

Fact two: There is a good (mechanical) reason for that.

If you don't want to accept that, fine. That's really your problem, not mine. Have a nice day.

"Fact", huh? You've done an exhaustive survey of the entire D&D player base? And you've divined their motives for their character choices? smh...

[pdegan2814]

Am I the only one that read "Screw you guys, I'm going home" in Cartman's voice here?

I tend to give very little weight to the arguments of people who claim to speak authoritatively about what "everyone"(or nearly everyone, close enough) thinks.

[Sudsboy]

I'm playing a full warlock in our current game, leveling 1-20 over the course of probably two-three years play. I just hit level 10 a couple of sessions ago. He is a half-elf hexblade, with the Shadow of Moil/Elven Accuracy/GWM thing going.

I've found so far that two spell slots is very limiting in our style of game, where we don't always have lots of short rests per session. Even in a session full of short rests (about half the time, I'd guess), having to conserve slots for SoM means I don't do much other casting. While I could cast a variety of other spells, I don't, because my capability depends on that specific action. The hexblade is good, but it is outclassed by almost every other melee character without some version of darkness/devil's sight running.

Next level, when I get an extra slot and my first mystic arcanum, I suspect things will open up a bit. His damage will increase at 12 and again at 14, and then his spells will be more readily usable at 17 when I get Foresight. This has been a long, dull slog though, all to be able to do something a barbarian can do with a bonus action at first level.

This is my first warlock, so I don't know how 1-20 caster 'lock would fare, though other warlocks at our table have expressed frustration. My biggest problem is not having enough agency-through-class-abilities, or so it seems to me. He's kinda the champion fighter of spellcasters.

<edit> One thing I've done to make him more interesting is select spells that have use in roleplaying situations and downtime, like Scrying and Dream. While he's a bit sluggish in the adventure, when narrative time rolls around he has plenty to do, with a recharge every hour.

[Sudsboy]

"Fact", huh? You've done an exhaustive survey of the entire D&D player base? And you've divined their motives for their character choices? smh...

Based on this chart, which includes both multiclass and single class characters as "1" for purposes of totaling, it seems reasonable to think single class warlock is not very popular. They come in ahead of bard, monk, sorcerer and druid in total-characters-with-any-number-of-levels-in-this-class, but the warlock dip is popular for sorcs, paladins, bards, fighters (this was before Xanathar's was released) and probably a few other niche cases.

Obviously, this was just one month in an online character builder, and is not conclusive, but I think denying a premise for pedantic reasons is just as silly as making an unsupported claim to begin with.

<edit> I'm no good at the internet. Forgot to include the link - https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-your-dd-character-rare/

[ad_hoc]

I've found so far that two spell slots is very limiting in our style of game, where we don't always have lots of short rests per session.

Our table typically has 1 short rest per session and 1 long rest every 3 sessions.

Maybe the heart of the problem people are having is that they equate long rest with a session.

[ad_hoc]

Based on this chart, which includes both multiclass and single class characters as "1" for purposes of totaling, it seems reasonable to think single class warlock is not very popular. They come in ahead of bard, monk, sorcerer and druid in total-characters-with-any-number-of-levels-in-this-class, but the warlock dip is popular for sorcs, paladins, bards, fighters (this was before Xanathar's was released) and probably a few other niche cases.

Obviously, this was just one month in an online character builder, and is not conclusive, but I think denying a premise for pedantic reasons is just as silly as making an unsupported claim to begin with.

<edit> I'm no good at the internet. Forgot to include the link - https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-your-dd-character-rare/

Where are you getting the multiclassing data from that?

Also, Barbarian to Warlock are all essentially tied.

Character popularity probably has a lot more to do with fiction than anything else. Fighter and Rogue are the most popular by a wide margin. Fighter is a short rest class and Rogue is a no-rest class. Rogues get hurt the most by having few encounters per long rest and yet here we are.

How many people even use multiclassing?

Mearls mentioned recently that less than half of players use feats. I bet multiclassing is lower than that.

[Baptor]

This dipping stuff is exactly why I don't use the optional multiclass rules in my game. It cheapens the fantasy. Many of you will likely disagree and that's fine. To me it's abhorrent.

[stoutstien]

This dipping stuff is exactly why I don't use the optional multiclass rules in my game. It cheapens the fantasy. Many of you will likely disagree and that's fine. To me it's abhorrent.
Not every multi class is about power
Some times multi classing is the only way to build a PC concept.
3 lvs of thief rogue gives a fighter a real thug feel.

[Trustypeaches]

This dipping stuff is exactly why I don't use the optional multiclass rules in my game. It cheapens the fantasy. Many of you will likely disagree and that's fine. To me it's abhorrent.Classes are just abstract concepts to represent different character powers.

I have no idea why you would find the mixing and matching of them "cheapens the fantasy".

[Sudsboy]

Where are you getting the multiclassing data from that?

I'm not. I'm not sure why you thought I was suggesting I was "getting multiclassing data". I was making inferences from a limited amount of data, and I tried to explain my thought process.

[Misterwhisper]

Not every multi class is about power
Some times multi classing is the only way to build a PC concept.
3 lvs of thief rogue gives a fighter a real thug feel.

You could just play a strength based rogue.

[ad_hoc]

I'm not. I'm not sure why you thought I was suggesting I was "getting multiclassing data". I was making inferences from a limited amount of data, and I tried to explain my thought process.

This:


it seems reasonable to think single class warlock is not very popular.

The link you posted doesn't say anything about how many of those are single or multiclass.

All it says is that the Warlock is in the middle of the pack for class popularity.

I doubt multiclassing in general is all that popular.

[Solusek]

Warlocks work fine single class. They are not weak or unfun or anything like that. They just happen to also be the best class for multiclassing. A lot of people looking into doing a multiclass character will be looking to pair warlock with any other charisma class (or paladin). So the abundance of warlock multiclass isn't because single class warlock sucks, it's simply because multiclass warlock is overpowered.

[stoutstien]

You could just play a strength based rogue.
There could also play a Dex based fighter and call it the same but the ba tricks combined with champion was a better fit. Is 3 fighter/3 rogue any stronger than 6 fighter or 6 rogue? Up for debate. You can ban milti classing at your table but it doesn't actually stop a player from stacking mechanical effects to gain an edge. Of course we could just ban all the powerful classes and be left with rangers

[Sudsboy]

This:



The link you posted doesn't say anything about how many of those are single or multiclass.

All it says is that the Warlock is in the middle of the pack for class popularity.

I doubt multiclassing in general is all that popular.

Well, that's your opinion. Mine is that it is where warlocks are concerned, for the reasons I stated. in the combinations I stated. Trying to head off another semantic argument at the pass.

[djreynolds]

A hexblade can use GWM and SS with charisma. Right?

That's AWESOME.

And that's dumping strength. And having 14 dex.

It's a great class, just with EB and repelling blast and agonizing blast and basically at will detect magic, read my last thread it's causes oodles of headaches.

Yes you could just grab x amount of levels, and somehow multiclass it with paladin. But you don't have to multiclass.

DMs can limit multiclassing, just say the patron says no or disagrees.

The invocations are really good.

Short rest issues should not be an issue. As a DM, I often tell players, you may want to short rest. I tell the monk to advocate for themselves, simply say I need a short rest.

If the party cannot gain anything, including just rolling hit dice, from a short rest then you are not challenging them enough.

[ad_hoc]

Well, that's your opinion. Mine is that it is where warlocks are concerned, for the reasons I stated. in the combinations I stated. Trying to head off another semantic argument at the pass.

where are you getting your multiclassing data from then?

[diplomancer]

How do people feel about allowing an upcast Shield spell to last for longer than 1 round? Perhaps still using your reaction for the same number of rounds as the spell level, or perhaps number of rounds = spell level/2 (rounded up)

Just to make the shield spell something useful for higher level hexblades.

[Trustypeaches]

DMs can limit multiclassing, just say the patron says no or disagrees..That’s dumb

If a DM isn’t comfortable with multiclassing they should be upfront about it rather than limit the players through contrived narrative reasons such as this.

“Classes” are just abstractions of character abilities, not literal roles in the world, that can be completely reskinned anyways.

[Tetrasodium]

That’s dumb

If a DM isn’t comfortable with multiclassing they should be upfront about it rather than limit the players through contrived narrative reasons such as this.

“Classes” are just abstractions of character abilities, not literal roles in the world, that can be completely reskinned anyways.


agreed wholeheartedly on both points.

[Mr.Spastic]

DMs can limit multiclassing, just say the patron says no or disagrees.



That’s dumb

If a DM isn’t comfortable with multiclassing they should be upfront about it rather than limit the players through contrived narrative reasons such as this.

“Classes” are just abstractions of character abilities, not literal roles in the world, that can be completely reskinned anyways.

I think they meant that it was limited from the start and he was suggesting a narrative option that makes sense. Most people would agree that with all optional and house rules you should be upfront with your players before you start playing.

If you think about it though, a Patron wouldn't want the character to have any source of strength apart from what they are given. It makes the character more dependent on the Patron and could make requests go over easier with they warlock who knows if they walk away they lose their power.

[Daghoulish]

I think they meant that it was limited from the start and he was suggesting a narrative option that makes sense. Most people would agree that with all optional and house rules you should be upfront with your players before you start playing.

If you think about it though, a Patron wouldn't want the character to have any source of strength apart from what they are given. It makes the character more dependent on the Patron and could make requests go over easier with they warlock who knows if they walk away they lose their power.

I actually see it from the opposite angle. A patron doesn't want just any joe-schmo to be their warlock, they want someone capable and able to make whatever they want to happen. This would make people who have previous skill sets (Fighter,Rogue,Barbarian) far more desirable because they've shown competency already. Beyond that, a patron might have a lot of fun with the idea of tempting certain classes away from their values(Paladin,Cleric,Druid). I bet a fiend would have fun making a pact with a paladin and trying to corrupt them, to break this person who has such great self assurance.

[Mr.Spastic]

I actually see it from the opposite angle. A patron doesn't want just any joe-schmo to be their warlock, they want someone capable and able to make whatever they want to happen. This would make people who have previous skill sets (Fighter,Rogue,Barbarian) far more desirable because they've shown competency already. Beyond that, a patron might have a lot of fun with the idea of tempting certain classes away from their values(Paladin,Cleric,Druid). I bet a fiend would have fun making a pact with a paladin and trying to corrupt them, to break this person who has such great self assurance.

I meant if they started as a warlock. Patrons would definitely want to enter pacts with already powerful beings like fighters and paladins. But if they got somebody inexperienced who they saw potential in, they would want to keep them under their thumb(unless they aren't evil or don't care).

[sithlordnergal]

You have made a deal.

It's how Warlock opens.

Otherworldly Patron
At 1st level, you have struck a bargain with an otherworldly being of your choice, such as The Fiend. Your choice grants you features at 1st level and again at 6th, 10th, and 14th level.

Pretty much says ride the lightning.

Ehh, I've seen plenty of players mess around with that. I know a player who's warlock didn't make a deal. Instead they quietly steal the power from their patron. If he gets caught, he's toast, but it is an interesting way to flavor it.