Pathfinder Mystic Theurge at Level 3 (Locathah)

[HouseRules]

Locathah's CR is 1/2 so it would start with an additional class level!

LevelClas**** DiceFeat, Trait
-1Locathah1d8Heighten Spell
0Locathah2d8
1Sorcerer 12d8+1d6Versatile Spellcaster, Magical Knack (Sorcerer)
2Oracle 13d8+1d6
3Sorcerer 23d8+2d6Practiced Spellcaster (Oracle)
4Mystic Theurge 13d8+3d6


Still not considered optimized?

Edit: Forgot the d6 upgrade in Pathfinder.

Edit


LevelClass
0Any 1 HD and CR < 1
1Wizard 1, Esoteric from Guild A
2Cleric 1, Esoteric from Guild B
XMonk 1 to Monk X
3+XMystic Theurge 1

[CasualViking]

Locathah's CR is 1/2 so it would start with an additional class level!
https://media1.tenor.com/images/cc86d1dbf1fe04ff8b01d4c7fbfbe127/tenor.gif?itemid=4953698



LevelClas**** DiceFeat, Trait
-1Locathah1d8Heighten Spell
0Locathah2d8
1Sorcerer 12d8+1d6Versatile Spellcaster, Magical Knack (Sorcerer)
2Oracle 13d8+1d6
3Sorcerer 23d8+2d6Practiced Spellcaster (Oracle)
4Mystic Theurge 13d8+3d6


Still not considered optimized?

Edit: Forgot the d6 upgrade in Pathfinder.

So far, since the end of the "Qalifying with SLAs" era, every ruling has been that "able to cast X level spells" means "has x-level spell slots".

Also, you should probably call it "3.PF", because Versatile Spellcaster is a 3.5 feat and Oracle could be replaced by Favored Soul.

[HouseRules]

LevelClass
-1Locathah
0Locathah
1Wizard 1, Esoteric Training (Wizard +3, Cleric +1)
2Cleric 1, Esoteric Training (Cleric +3, Wizard +1)
3Mystic Theurge 1


Joining two different guilds, and get 35 fame to each guild (70 fame minimum).
5 fame for Eclectic Training, 30 more for Esoteric Training.

"Practiced Spellcaster" Feat is also 3.5, not just "Versatile Spellcaster".

[the_david]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/cc86d1dbf1fe04ff8b01d4c7fbfbe127/tenor.gif?itemid=4953698
Technically, yes. That's how it works. Grab your Pathfinder Bestiary and read the monsters as PCs part.

[HouseRules]

Locathah is the only race that works because the others races with more than 1 HD and CR < 1 are mindless undead.

[Rynjin]

Technically, yes. That's how it works. Grab your Pathfinder Bestiary and read the monsters as PCs part.

Can you point out the text you believe is relevant? This is the whole section.


Using one of the monsters presented in this book as a character can be very rewarding, but weighing such a character against others is challenging. Monsters are not designed with the rules for players in mind, and as such can be very unbalancing if not handled carefully. There are a number of monsters in this book that do not possess racial Hit Dice. Such creatures are the best options for player characters, but a few of them are so powerful that they count as having 1 class level, even without a racial Hit Die.

Such characters should only be allowed in a group that is 2nd-level or higher. For monsters with racial Hit Dice, the best way to allow monster PCs is to pick a CR and allow all of the players to make characters using monsters of that CR. Treat the monster’s CR as its total class levels and allow the characters to multiclass into the core classes. Do not advance such monsters by adding Hit Dice. Monster PCs should only advance through classes. If you are including a single monster character in a group of standard characters, make sure the group is of a level that is at least as high as the monster’s CR.

Treat the monster’s CR as class levels when determining the monster PC’s overall levels. For example, in a group of 6th-level characters, a minotaur (CR 4) would possess 2 levels of a core class, such as barbarian. Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels.

Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster’s CR, rounded down. Using the minotaur example, when the group is at a point between 6th and 7th level, the minotaur gains a level, and then again at 7th, making him a minotaur barbarian 4. This process repeats at 10th level, making him a minotaur barbarian 8 when the group reaches 10th level. From that point onward, he gains levels normally. GMs should carefully consider any monster PCs in their groups. Some creatures are simply not suitable for play as PCs, due to their powers or role in the game. As monster characters progress, GMs should closely monitor whether such characters are disruptive or abusive to the rules and modify them as needed to improve play.

More to the point, even if such text did exist, it's not relevant in this case. Locathah are a 10 RP PC-ready race, not a "monster as PC". (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/standard-races-1-10-rp/locathah/)

[HouseRules]

Of course, it is a stop gap to prevent extra hit dice at level 1.

So the optimization "fails" for level 3 entry.


LevelClass
-1Locathah
0Locathah
1Wizard 1, Esoteric Training (Wizard +3, Cleric +1)
2Cleric 1, Esoteric Training (Cleric +3, Wizard +1)
3Monk 1
4Monk 2
5Monk 3
6Mystic Theurge 1


The Esoteric Training increases Spellcaster Level and Spell Slot progression by upto 4, but limited to HD. Thus, get some Monk levels for the Good Saves across the board, while gaining Spellcaster Levels and Spell Slots from Esoteric Training.

Also assume that maybe the character does not have enough fame (35 fame to each of the two guilds) until level 5.

[grarrrg]

Can you point out the text you believe is relevant? This is the whole section.

I think this is the part in question:
"Treat the monster’s CR as class levels when determining the monster PC’s overall levels"

So the process goes:
Monster has RHDx2 & CR 1/2 > we always round all fractions down > Monster has CR '0' > PC's are level 1
> Monster gets RHDx2 AND a class level so that it can "equal" the rest of the PC's.

Which of course very likely should run afoul of "Monsters are not designed with the rules for players in mind", and "GMs should closely monitor whether such characters are disruptive or abusive to the rules and modify them as needed to improve play."


This leaves "Monster-Locathah Mystic Theurge early entry" firmly in the realm of "Theoretical Optimization", as TO assumes a permissive GM.
(and this is also leaving out how in the heck you can manage 35+ fame in TWO guilds, AND afford the gold fees before level 3)

[HouseRules]

@garrrg, as Rynjin pointed out, the option no longer exist with the change
Locathah are a 10 RP PC-ready race, not a "monster as PC" in 2015.

[grarrrg]

@garrrg, as Rynjin pointed out, the option no longer exist with the change in 2015.

I saw that, but I was addressing how it is/was thought to work. And it's still relevant for other 1/2 CR monsters that may-or-may-not be abuse-able.

[HouseRules]

I forgot what the others fractional CR monster were, but one was a 3HD undead without int score, another is also undead with 2HD.

[grarrrg]

I forgot what the others fractional CR monster were, but one was a 3HD undead without int score, another is also undead with 2HD.

And here's the thing that I'm missing, maybe it's obvious and I just can't brain , maybe it's not.
And it's not like you explain all that much, you tend to just dump a table and "TA-DA!"


Locathah is the only race that works because the others races with more than 1 HD and CR < 1 are mindless undead.

Why do you _need_ 2 RHD? wouldn't a single RHD on a 1/2 CR monster work?
Mystic Theurge needs three Reqs:
3 Ranks in a skill (technically two skills, but if you can get one the other is a given)
2nd level Divine spells
2nd level Arcane spells

You need 1 level of [divine class] and 1 level of [arcane] class (even assuming you somehow get entry with just one of those, it leaves you with a wasted spell-progression, so you still 'need' both classes).
This is 2 levels that gets us 2 skill ranks at level 2.
Add a RHD from a 1/2 CR class, gives us another 'not-level' for that 3rd Skill rank.
Add the 'Fame trick' to boost casting by +2/+2, now both sides can cast 2nd level spells.

So why do you need a 2nd RHD?

[HouseRules]

Do pathfinder still keep the replace first HD rules for CR < 1 monsters? Got to go back and look it up.

You are right grarrrg.