The Party Animal Backdoor To The Dwarven Soul In The OotSWorld

[eilandesq]

Under the current rules for Dwarves that resulted from the bet between Hel, Loki, and Thor, Dwarves are basically forced to live the equivalent of Lawful (Good) Stupid to maximize their chances of reaching the pleasant version of the Dwarven afterlife, with exceptions of various types that involve being lucky (dying in honorable combat), fatally abusing your liver with booze, or (as Hilgya noted) worshiping Loki sincerely and being honorable by being dishonorable. Whichever approach the dwarf uses to get there successfully, they arrive at an afterlife that is notably different than what they lived by for most of their lives in most cases--a Chaotic Good (more or less) plane with constant drinking and feasting. How can this make them happy, given how they lived their lives? As with Hilgya's philosophy, there is a loophole, in that the devout Dwarf is allowed to carouse his or her butt off to the point of lethality and still be honorable--so once they die from whatever cause gets them into Valhalla, they enter an afterlife which has all of the "good stuff" from their prior life, even if it lacks the horrifyingly awful devotion to duty that is the core of the dwarven existence in this world cycle. If there is a next cycle, one hopes that it will involve less cognitive dissonance for the poor dwarves trying to live good lives than this one did.

[hamishspence]

Whichever approach the dwarf uses to get there successfully, they arrive at an afterlife that is notably different than what they lived by for most of their lives in most cases--a Chaotic Good (more or less) plane with constant drinking and feasting. How can this make them happy, given how they lived their lives?

In the introduction to Blood Runs In The Family - Durkon actually does bring this up. He argues that the whole point of Valhalla, for him, is as a place where he'd get the fun that he doesn't get in his normal life.


I would suggest that only dwarves who worship a god that resides in Valhalla, go there. If a dwarven family settles in the South, and worship the Twelve Gods (or the West, and worship the Western Gods), and a dwarf dies honourably as a worshipper of one of the other pantheons, then they go to one of the planes that members of those pantheons reside in - the plane most fitting their own alignment.

[rbetieh]

You know, I never actually thought Hilgya's plan for herself was going to work. Feels Naïve.

[Synesthesy]

How can this make them happy, given how they lived their lives?

Beer.


You know, I never actually thought Hilgya's plan for herself was going to work. Feels Naïve.

I never thought that it was Hilgya's plan, I always understood that it was Loki's idea. And as a God, I think that he knows he's right. If he doesn't lie for purpose, of course, but I think he isn't.

[D.One]

I never thought that it was Hilgya's plan, I always understood that it was Loki's idea. And as a God, I think that he knows he's right. If he doesn't lie for purpose, of course, but I think he isn't.

I believe what rbetieh meant is that, since Hilgya doesn't explicitly states that she had confirmation of her "loophole theory", it can be all part of her usual wishfull thinking and delusional self-justification.

[Riftwolf]

I never thought that it was Hilgya's plan, I always understood that it was Loki's idea. And as a God, I think that he knows he's right. If he doesn't lie for purpose, of course, but I think he isn't.

It could equally be either; either Loki had a loophole all this time and never told any dwarf before Hilgya (because... It was... Funny?) or Hilgya came up with a self-rationalisation that fitted the course of action she wanted to take. Which, yknow, no-ones ever done that before...

[Goblin_Priest]

I believe what rbetieh meant is that, since Hilgya doesn't explicitly states that she had confirmation of her "loophole theory", it can be all part of her usual wishfull thinking and delusional self-justification.

Given how most clerics don't seem to have a direct line of communication with their god (see: Redcloak just working off whether he gets spells or not), and that she specifically doesn't really seem to have a very functional relationship with Loki (or anyone) by the lack of her divine powers allowing her to find Durkon until now...

I'm inclined to believe that if she had made this up as part of wishful thinking and delusional self-justification (very likely given the character), then the odds of Loki telling her "that's not actually how it works" would not be all that great.

I mean, probably some people of the Church of Loki really know the ins and outs of that deal and where that places them as dwarf worshippers of him, but that doesn't mean she does. We know Durkon has no or few ranks in Knowledge (religion), and there's little reason to believe she has any more than he does.

Also, this is a system of afterlife where how you live your life is completely irrelevant, or at least, it's a two-tier system where it is completely irrelevant for the first tier. It's like the aztec system, it's just about how you die. Old age or disease? BAM, suck it up in the crap afterlife. Battle or childbirth? Huzzah bruh, go live it up in the awesome afterlife! A number of other religions have similar aspects to this and completely or partially exclude the value of living morally. "Want to get in the good afterlife? It's okay if you sin, as long as you are REALLY GOOD at jumping".

So to veer back away from RL references, her living dishonorably by the principles of Loki might not even have any impact whatsoever on how this first tier deal works out for her. If she died backstabbing an ally in the middle of a tough battle, for example, that's clearly a dishonorable move. But she died in battle... so... hurray, death pings back "honourable" as far the deal is concerned?

The details of "honor in dishonor" just seem so contorted that it just seems like another one of her self-justifying delusions.

[Potatopeelerkin]

It does seem like the current rules give you motivation to act stupidly and maximise your chances of dying, just so you can ensure you die in an honourable way. There's a disadvantage to being a successful hero, as it means you might live through the battle to die of old age (and end up with Hel).

[Goblin_Priest]

It does seem like the current rules give you motivation to act stupidly and maximise your chances of dying, just so you can ensure you die in an honourable way. There's a disadvantage to being a successful hero, as it means you might live through the battle to die of old age (and end up with Hel).

Yes, very much so.

[Rrmcklin]

There's still value in living normally in that the honorable vs. dishonorable death only has to do with whether they automatically go to Hel or not.

Once that question is out of the way, the normal system is still in place, and dwarf can therefore live a life of evil, but die honorably in battle to avoid Hel...and still end up in one of the evil afterlives because that's what earned from the life they lived.

In which case Hilgya's case might still be trickier, depending on whether Loki is one of the evil (or possibly neutral) gods who takes good care of his followers/clerics for their service even after death.