of liches and demi liches

[WolvesbaneIII]

So I'm reading up on demi liches, and I'm wondering if perhaps xykon could have either

1-made a new phlactery

2-transfered his phylactery status to a new item

3- some other thing that would allow him to remain as a lich without sacrificing his body and get a different phylactery.

I'm really drawn to this series due to its cool fantasy setting and that it reminds me of old school final fantasy. So I'm wondering if there are any things in comic that could allude to this.

I remember xykon was griping about building magic items and could only do so for like 8 hours a day. Could he have crafted something to transfer his soul from 1 thing to another object, and done so around the time his phylactery was found? or some other time off screen?

I get this feeling that he is toying with red cloak, waiting to spring this on him as he was paranoid enough to hypnotize the MITD to kill redclaok, and was upset about losing the thing in the 1st place. Maybe he is still crafting magic items, and one of those is the sort of thing that transfers his soul into a new phylactery, put it in the astral plane, and did so without letting red claok in on the whole thing, and is using redclaok for a few things.

things like a free undead repairman, and if he gets low on hp red claok would be quite nervous as if xykon is destroyed, his whole plan is ruined, so he might slip up on purpose to make RC sweat a bit.

2nd, the tension of keeping a "buffoon" like xykon in good shape would be entertainment. xykon could make jokes about blowing himself up and regenerating and watch RC squirm as he has to convince xykon not do just that would be a great deal of entertainment. Playing dumb has always been one of xykons best strategies. he toyed with Darth V and didn't actually get serious until his mcguffin was lost, and really only stopped goofing off to take RC's advice about dispelling V's spells. Xykon could have ended it much sooner but enjoyed playing with his food.

I have a feeling this arc won't end with RC going "hahaha I have the phylactery" as that seems too easy, too cut and dry. Xykon is evil with a capital E.

So, after all that, my question is, is there a thing xykon can realistically do to get a new phylactery, even if he still only has 1 to thwart RC? What are his options?

[Caerulea]

Playing dumb has always been one of xykons best strategies. he toyed with Darth V and didn't actually get serious until his mcguffin was lost, and really only stopped goofing off to take RC's advice about dispelling V's spells. Xykon could have ended it much sooner but enjoyed playing with his food.

I have a feeling this arc won't end with RC going "hahaha I have the phylactery" as that seems too easy, too cut and dry. Xykon is evil with a capital E.

So, after all that, my question is, is there a thing xykon can realistically do to get a new phylactery, even if he still only has 1 to thwart RC? What are his options?
Actually, he dispelled Darth V's spells as soon as V made it clear that they were mostly attacking him to prove that they had superior magical power.

About the end of the arc: Redcloak won't go "Ha ha ha, I have the phylactary and you must obey" because Xykon would kill him instantly.

Redcloak tried that already. Xykon's response? Go ahead. My souls not in that right now.
That was the point that Redcloak lost most of his control.


Could Xykon have made a replacement Phylactery? I don't know the rules, maybe. However, I think that Xykon doesn't know that his Phylactery is not in his fortress, he would be far more concerned and probably would murder Redcloak, because the one thing he really fears is destruction. Xykon does enjoy toying with people, but he doesn't make long term plans to do so, it just comes up.

Well, except for Right-Eye
Redcloak is maybe nervous about Xykon being destroyed, but he probably has some plan for it. Redcloak is the super prepared one.

If you would like, I will bet 10 currencies that Xykon doesn't know Redcloak has his real Phylactery.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Actually, he dispelled Darth V's spells as soon as V made it clear that they were mostly attacking him to prove that they had superior magical power.

About the end of the arc: Redcloak won't go "Ha ha ha, I have the phylactary and you must obey" because Xykon would kill him instantly.

Redcloak tried that already. Xykon's response? Go ahead. My souls not in that right now.
That was the point that Redcloak lost most of his control.


Could Xykon have made a replacement Phylactery? I don't know the rules, maybe. However, I think that Xykon doesn't know that his Phylactery is not in his fortress, he would be far more concerned and probably would murder Redcloak, because the one thing he really fears is destruction. Xykon does enjoy toying with people, but he doesn't make long term plans to do so, it just comes up.

Well, except for Right-Eye
Redcloak is maybe nervous about Xykon being destroyed, but he probably has some plan for it. Redcloak is the super prepared one.

If you would like, I will bet 10 currencies that Xykon doesn't know Redcloak has his real Phylactery.

well, maybe he doesn't know. It just seems like there is some set up for a twist. but the real twist is that there is no twist. played straight and thats the trick, like in contagion where people go off on their own and don't screw things up and things work out.

Like I really thought the 1 doctor would prick himself and get sick, but didn't.

If RC has the phylactery, then what is his end game? hold onto it and toss it in lava if xykon is destroyed? it seems like an odd bargaining posture, considering he tried that already.

[Crusher]

More importantly, after thinking’s about it, I’ve decided Frosty the Snowman is probably a regular lich, not a demi-lich.

[Jasdoif]

More importantly, after thinking’s about it, I’ve decided Frosty the Snowman is probably a regular lich, not a demi-lich.I thought Frosty was a simulacrum of a clay golem.

[woweedd]

I thought Frosty was a simulacrum of a clay golem.
...Pile of snow, possessed by a hat-like entity?

[Goblin_Priest]

I don't think that's how it works.

I don't think that a Lich can switch phylacteries, or make a new one if the old one is destroyed.

[Jasdoif]

...Pile of snow, possessed by a hat-like entity?Something like that...the hat was the end result of an arcane experiment; making the simulacrum effect continuous rather than instantaneous obviated the 12 hour casting time and the material/repair/experience components, at the cost of giving the simulacrum of the moment a vulnerability to called shots. (And activated with the command word "Oatmeal", I believe?)

[Crusher]

I don't think that's how it works.

I don't think that a Lich can switch phylacteries, or make a new one if the old one is destroyed.

No, no. The HAT is the phylactery.

[D.One]

From Libris Mortis:


A lich can construct only a single phylactery. A lich whose phylactery is destroyed suffers no harm, but cannot construct a new one. If a lich without a phylactery is slain, the lich is forever destroyed.

[Morty]

If Xykon could construct a second phylactery, he'd have done so (or made Redcloak do it) a long time ago. Or during the long and tedious search for it in Azure City sewers. Its loss is the one thing he's actually afraid of.

[Necris Omega]

I would assume (I don't know if the process has been explicitly described somewhere) the process of becoming a demilich (still the most bogus of names/naming schemes) would involve the phylactery in some way, so if Xykon were to go that route, he'd probably discover Redcloak's ruse.

Assuming he doesn't know already, and is just playing Redcloak to try and find out where the Goblin is going with everything. If Xykon's smart enough to have wool over the eyes of Redcloak, he's also smart enough to know, even for a Level WHOA!!!!!!! SuperLich, this gate business is him playing on a field he's way out classed on. Epic Lich or no, he's still effectively nothing to the Gods whose realm he's potentially toying with, and there are things he's still in the dark about that he's going to have to take risks on par with Lichdom itself to learn.

If that means letting Redcloak effectively hold his soul at swordpoint... No universal emperor ever got there without risks.

[Fyraltari]

If Xykon could construct a second phylactery, he'd have done so (or made Redcloak do it) a long time ago. Or during the long and tedious search for it in Azure City sewers. Its loss is the one thing he's actually afraid of.

He must be so jealous of Voldemort.

[Morty]

He must be so jealous of Voldemort.

I don't know, I feel like Xykon at least wouldn't hide his hypothetical multiple phylacteries in conspicuous locations and using objects connected to his past.

[Fyraltari]

I don't know, I feel like Xykon at least wouldn't hide his hypothetical multiple phylacteries in conspicuous locations and using objects connected to his past.

He'd be even more jealous since Vody acted stupid with his multiple phylacteries.

[Goblin_Priest]

I think that, visually-speaking, the Order ganging up on some glorified decorated flying bone would be a little anticlimactic.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't know, I feel like Xykon at least wouldn't hide his hypothetical multiple phylacteries in conspicuous locations and using objects connected to his past.

...

Xykon didn't bother hiding the one he did have, instead letting RC wear it around his neck for years. And when the obvious danger of this smacked him in the face, not unlike Voldemort, he then proceeded to move it to a more secure, but hardly inconspicuous, place.

Vodemort in fact, split the difference quite nicely. Some he put in very safe places (famous for being so, but certainly safe), others he his in obscure locations most people wouldn't even think of checking ("a cave I visited once", FFS). And given that he had so many, yes, two he intended to use offensively. There is nothing stupid about that, when you have so many backups.

As to why use grand objects? Everything in canon suggests that once you turn any object into a horcrux, it practically rings with magical energy. Grandiose or mundane, the moment an object becomes a horcrux, it cannot be hidden in obscurity - it is patently obvious it is magical, and you still need to hide it. So if it is going to hold your soul, you might as well pick a grandiose object (with the added side benefit that when you tell your bootlickers to keep it safe, you can tell them it's because it's valuable because of the base object, not because it is now also a horcrux. It also isn't as obvious that it is one since any magical aura it has can be attributed to the base object)

Grey Wolf

[Goblin_Priest]

...

Xykon didn't bother hiding the one he did have, instead letting RC wear it around his neck for years. And when the obvious danger of this smacked him in the face, not unlike Voldemort, he then proceeded to move it to a more secure, but hardly inconspicuous, place.

Not even that!

It should have been clear, after the fight with the ghost paladins, that keeping his phylactery on hand, was extremely dangerous. If team Evil loses in battle, the phylactery is immediately gained by the good guys. You'd think that after they came so close to dying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html), and having it explicitly stated as being at risk, they'd consider putting it somewhere safe. And yet... it took actually losing it physically before he put his mind to it.

And that's without mentioning how Redcloak had to run away in the early strips with the phylactery, had the Order chased him down, they'd have been screwed. And how they got defeated at Lirian's gate. And the other occasions is when Xykon got defeated before he met Redcloak. You'd think they'd learn by now that "you win some, you lose some" (as I think he said himself?), and that it might be a good idea to take basic precautions to minimize the damage from a defeat.

[woweedd]

...

Xykon didn't bother hiding the one he did have, instead letting RC wear it around his neck for years. And when the obvious danger of this smacked him in the face, not unlike Voldemort, he then proceeded to move it to a more secure, but hardly inconspicuous, place.

Vodemort in fact, split the difference quite nicely. Some he put in very safe places (famous for being so, but certainly safe), others he his in obscure locations most people wouldn't even think of checking ("a cave I visited once", FFS). And given that he had so many, yes, two he intended to use offensively. There is nothing stupid about that, when you have so many backups.

As to why use grand objects? Everything in canon suggests that once you turn any object into a horcrux, it practically rings with magical energy. Grandiose or mundane, the moment an object becomes a horcrux, it cannot be hidden in obscurity - it is patently obvious it is magical, and you still need to hide it. So if it is going to hold your soul, you might as well pick a grandiose object (with the added side benefit that when you tell your bootlickers to keep it safe, you can tell them it's because it's valuable because of the base object, not because it is now also a horcrux. It also isn't as obvious that it is one since any magical aura it has can be attributed to the base object)

Grey Wolf
I personally took Voldemort putting his items in places connected to his past, and making them significant, as coming from the same impulse: Namely, that he's an overly-dramatic megalomaniac. He'd never settle for hiding a piece of his soul in, say, a pebble. That's too...mundane for him. Voldemort, for all his genius, seems to have a need for dramatic plans that show off how clever he is, and the Horcruxs aren't the only time that comes up. You can also see it in him using Harry's blood to bring him back , even though any enemy of his would have done, or his need to kill Harry personally rather then let his henchmen do it, Heck, he duels Harry in the graveyard, rather then just killing him while he was tied up, for the same reason: he goes for the most grandiose/fear-inducing method rather then the pragmatic one. His vanity is about his third-biggest weakness, right behind sociopathy and thantophobia.

[Goblin_Priest]

I personally took Voldemort putting his items in places connected to his past, and making them significant, as coming from the same impulse: Namely, that he's an overly-dramatic megalomaniac. He'd never settle for hiding a piece of his soul in, say, a pebble. That's too...mundane for him. Voldemort, for all his genius, seems to have a need for dramatic plans that show off how clever he is, and the Horcruxs aren't the only time that comes up. You can also see it in him using Harry's blood to bring him back , even though any enemy of his would have done, or his need to kill Harry personally rather then let his henchmen do it, Heck, he duels Harry in the graveyard, rather then just killing him while he was tied up, for the same reason: he goes for the most grandiose/fear-inducing method rather then the pragmatic one. His vanity is about his third-biggest weakness, right behind sociopathy and thantophobia.

Grandiose and fear-inducing might be considered to make sense if you consider that he didn't just want to commit random evil, but was grabbing power and forming an evil organization.

(sorry, I didn't actually read book 6)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I personally took Voldemort putting his items in places connected to his past, and making them significant, as coming from the same impulse: Namely, that he's an overly-dramatic megalomaniac. He'd never settle for hiding a piece of his soul in, say, a pebble. That's too...mundane for him. Voldemort, for all his genius, seems to have a need for dramatic plans that show off how clever he is, and the Horcruxs aren't the only time that comes up.

That is not the case. Yes, the object he picked are an extension of his magpie tendency to collect trophies, but the hiding spots are not: two obscure ones: a cave that only the muggle orphanage would know about, and a shack his grandfather lived in, a grandfather he had to dig through a lit of records to even find. Two secure ones: Gringotts and Hogwarts. Two offensive ones: diary and snake. It is a nice, logical spread of approaches.

Using a pebble I have already addressed: sure, now you have a pebble with your soul attached. What do you do with it? You can't just bury it in a beach, because anyone with a magic sense will feel its presence, one magic pebble surrounded by mundane ones. So you are back to having to put it somewhere safe. And even devoted servants might wonder why you are asking to store a pebble that is humming with magic in their Gringotts vault.


You can also see it in him using Harry's blood to bring him back , even though any enemy of his would have done,

No, it would not have. He needed to save face. He couldn't have his death eaters think that he couldn't even touch Harry. He needed to share the protection. Yes, his ignorance of what a protection of love meant led to his downfall, eventually, but at that time, "any enemy" might have given him his body back, but it would have weakened his standing with the death eaters beyond what would have been acceptable or even prudent.


his need to kill Harry personally rather then let his henchmen do it
Same as the above. You can't be the biggest bully if you can't handle the guy that got rid of you. Death Eaters are controlled by a mix of respect and naked force. Voldemort can't afford to be upstaged on the day he is back.


Heck, he duels Harry in the graveyard, rather then just killing him while he was tied up, for the same reason: he goes for the most grandiose/fear-inducing method rather then the pragmatic one.
In the graveyard, Voldemort is putting a big show, but notice that he is building his way up. He is not stupid: he has no idea if his plan to share the love barrier will work, so he isn't about to Avada Kevadra Harry straight away: for all he know, it will rebound again. That's not grandiose, that's common sense... disguised as a show of cruelty (which he also needs; he needs to remind the Death Eaters just who he is).

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

That is not the case. Yes, the object he picked are an extension of his magpie tendency to collect trophies, but the hiding spots are not: two obscure ones: a cave that only the muggle orphanage would know about, and a shack his grandfather lived in, a grandfather he had to dig through a lit of records to even find. Two secure ones: Gringotts and Hogwarts. Two offensive ones: diary and snake. It is a nice, logical spread of approaches.

Using a pebble I have already addressed: sure, now you have a pebble with your soul attached. What do you do with it? You can't just bury it in a beach, because anyone with a magic sense will feel its presence, one magic pebble surrounded by mundane ones. So you are back to having to put it somewhere safe. And even devoted servants might wonder why you are asking to store a pebble that is humming with magic in their Gringotts vault.
Throw it into the Atlantic. Like a few hundreds kilometers off the coast. No one is ever going to find it.
Interestingly, this is what Saruman prentended happened to the Master-Ring when he did not want anyone but him to look for it. That Anduin-the-Great carried it to the Sundering Sea where no-one, even Sauron himself could reach it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Throw it into the Atlantic. Like a few hundreds kilometers off the coast. No one is ever going to find it.

We never see it happen, but every precaution Voldemort took was reversible - like with the gates in OotS, it seems that there was a non-zero chance that Voldemort would need to be able to recover his horcruxes. Maybe it was in the next chapter of the book, and Hermione never got that far into the topic to tell Harry about.

ETA: might be that if you need the horcrux, your spirit is drawn to were it resided (such as Voldemort ending in Albania, where the crown was for a while). You really don't want to end a powerless ghost at the bottom of the ocean, if you then will need to get hold of a servant to assist you back to a body. But this is just me spit balling - the crown wasn't in Albania by the time Voldemort got blown to pieces.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

Throw it into the Atlantic. Like a few hundreds kilometers off the coast. No one is ever going to find it.

"Accio Horcrux!"

[Grey_Wolf_c]

"Accio Horcrux!"

Thor damnit, I should've thought of that. We even have canon that Voldemort was concerned about it enough to set explicit defences against it.

Grey Wolf, ashamed.

[Fyraltari]

We never see it happen, but every precaution Voldemort took was reversible - like with the gates in OotS, it seems that there was a non-zero chance that Voldemort would need to be able to recover his horcruxes. Maybe it was in the next chapter of the book, and Hermione never got that far into the topic to tell Harry about.

ETA: might be that if you need the horcrux, your spirit is drawn to were it resided (such as Voldemort ending in Albania, where the crown was for a while). You really don't want to end a powerless ghost at the bottom of the ocean, if you then will need to get hold of a servant to assist you back to a body. But this is just me spit balling - the crown wasn't in Albania by the time Voldemort got blown to pieces.

Grey Wolf
That's a fair point, but since you need but one Horcrux to stay this side of Death and he has seven of those, unless he specifically needs all of them accessible for some reason, he could throw just one away?

"Accio Horcrux!"

Not sure how serious that is, but I'm pretty sure the books rule that one out.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That's a fair point, but since you need but one Horcrux to stay this side of Death and he has seven of those, unless he specifically needs all of them accessible for some reason, he could throw just one away?
Not if they need dusting once a century, or any other imaginable reason. Remember, my point here is that Voldemort is neither being stupid nor grandstanding with his pick of hidey-holes. Think the gates in OotS - we have never been told why they don't just bury them in magical cement, but they don't. There is nothing inherently suspicious about this, IMnpHO. Just plug in whatever headcanon you like, and it could be that you think he's being arrogant (not sure how, but lets say) - and that's fine. But it's still just headcanon. One can't turn around and declare it proof that Voldemort was arrogant.


Not sure how serious that is, but I'm pretty sure the books rule that one out.

No, the books show that he had to explicitly enchant an Inferius to block any attempt to "pull" on the Horcrux from outside the island. Dumbledore expected a spell to be in place, and he agreed that attempting the Accio was the simplest way to check what the defence was, but a defence was expected.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Not if they need dusting once a century, or any other imaginable reason. Remember, my point here is that Voldemort is neither being stupid nor grandstanding with his pick of hidey-holes. Think the gates in OotS - we have never been told why they don't just bury them in magical cement, but they don't. There is nothing inherently suspicious about this, IMnpHO. Just plug in whatever headcanon you like, and it could be that you think he's being arrogant (not sure how, but lets say) - and that's fine. But it's still just headcanon. One can't turn around and declare it proof that Voldemort was arrogant.
Hey, I don't very much care one way or the other. It would have made for a worse story if he had thrown it away though.




No, the books show that he had to explicitly enchant an Inferius to block any attempt to "pull" on the Horcrux from outside the island. Dumbledore expected a spell to be in place, and he agreed that attempting the Accio was the simplest way to check what the defence was, but a defence was expected.

Grey Wolf
If you say so. It's been years since I read that book, all I remembered was that "accio" didn't work.

[Kish]

Not sure how serious that is, but I'm pretty sure the books rule that one out.
Deadly serious and, as Grey Wolf said, no, not at all.

You need a plan that works for people searching for the phylactery/Horcrux with magic, not just with fishing nets.

[woweedd]

That is not the case. Yes, the object he picked are an extension of his magpie tendency to collect trophies, but the hiding spots are not: two obscure ones: a cave that only the muggle orphanage would know about, and a shack his grandfather lived in, a grandfather he had to dig through a lit of records to even find. Two secure ones: Gringotts and Hogwarts. Two offensive ones: diary and snake. It is a nice, logical spread of approaches.

Using a pebble I have already addressed: sure, now you have a pebble with your soul attached. What do you do with it? You can't just bury it in a beach, because anyone with a magic sense will feel its presence, one magic pebble surrounded by mundane ones. So you are back to having to put it somewhere safe. And even devoted servants might wonder why you are asking to store a pebble that is humming with magic in their Gringotts vault.



No, it would not have. He needed to save face. He couldn't have his death eaters think that he couldn't even touch Harry. He needed to share the protection. Yes, his ignorance of what a protection of love meant led to his downfall, eventually, but at that time, "any enemy" might have given him his body back, but it would have weakened his standing with the death eaters beyond what would have been acceptable or even prudent.


Same as the above. You can't be the biggest bully if you can't handle the guy that got rid of you. Death Eaters are controlled by a mix of respect and naked force. Voldemort can't afford to be upstaged on the day he is back.


In the graveyard, Voldemort is putting a big show, but notice that he is building his way up. He is not stupid: he has no idea if his plan to share the love barrier will work, so he isn't about to Avada Kevadra Harry straight away: for all he know, it will rebound again. That's not grandiose, that's common sense... disguised as a show of cruelty (which he also needs; he needs to remind the Death Eaters just who he is).

Grey Wolf
There's nothing in the books suggesting Horcruxes, or any other object, somehow emit magic. Heck, that ring, which contained, I will remind you, The Resurrection Stone, powerful magic if ever there w sone, was worn by Voldemort, openly, with, seemingly, no one being any the wiser. That said, while your points are fair, i'm pretty much certain Voldemort's arrogance is a very deliberate character trait. He's the most powerful and most intelligent Wizard in the world, bar Dumbledore, and he wants EVERYONE to know it. He has a fondness of ceremony, hence why, for instance, he keeps Hogwarts running smoothly the same, after he takes it over. He associates all the culture and tradition of Hogwarts with the only home he ever knew.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There's nothing in the books suggesting Horcruxes, or any other object, somehow emit magic.
The locket fascinated the entire Weasley family and assorted hangers on despite it being impossible to open. Harry couldn't put down a diary that was blank. Dumbledore mentions the cave "has known magic". Etc. No, it doesn't produce thaums you can measure, but clearly magic objects are not inert.


Heck, that ring, which contained, I will remind you, The Resurrection Stone, powerful magic if ever there w sone, was worn by Voldemort, openly, with, seemingly, no one being any the wiser.
Why would people in a magic school be surprised people have magical objects? They weren't surprised by Longbottom's remembrall either. Magical objects aren't special at Hogwarts.


That said, while your points are fair, i'm pretty much certain Voldemort's arrogance is a very deliberate character trait.
I am not disputing he is arrogant. I am disputing that his choice of methods to protect the horcruxes were selected because of arrogance, and I am disputing that his selections were weaker than they could have been. Canon, if anything, suggests that the only time his arrogance weakened his defences was his choice of Hogwarts Room of Requirement, thinking that only he knew about it. Presumably, he wanted a room only he could enter, and the room provided one... but he never stopped to think where objects in that room went after he was done with the room, when in fact the RoR can't make objects disappear, so they end up in the default "cathedral of lost objects" version of the room (or, if the object is appropriate, in other versions - such as Moody's Foe Glass ending in the DA training room later).

But a shack he is barely connected to? A cave he only visited once as a pre-wizard? No, those are very solid choices

Grey Wolf

[WolvesbaneIII]

As far as hiding the phylactery is concerned, are there any magic dampening items like orihalcum in this universe? like in slayers lina commented on orihalcum hiding the philosophers stone after she put a spell on it to be unable to be tracked.

So, are there any spells like that?

also, maybe xykon could hoard magic stuff and hide the phylactery in a thing and people would have to get through a deadly maze with traps and stuff.

Hmm. maybe thats what he did with his fortress in the astral plane. hidden under all kinds of stuff, minus the part where RC took it before hand. I can't wait to see how that sub plot resolves.

[woweedd]

As far as hiding the phylactery is concerned, are there any magic dampening items like orihalcum in this universe? like in slayers lina commented on orihalcum hiding the philosophers stone after she put a spell on it to be unable to be tracked.

So, are there any spells like that?

also, maybe xykon could hoard magic stuff and hide the phylactery in a thing and people would have to get through a deadly maze with traps and stuff.

Hmm. maybe thats what he did with his fortress in the astral plane. hidden under all kinds of stuff, minus the part where RC took it before hand. I can't wait to see how that sub plot resolves.
Yeah, I got the sense that is what he did. If the 6th book is devoted to Kraggor's Gate, the 7th, i'm gonna guess, will be about finally taking the fight to Xykon and invading his fortress.

[Peelee]

That is not the case. Yes, the object he picked are an extension of his magpie tendency to collect trophies, but the hiding spots are not: two obscure ones: a cave that only the muggle orphanage would know about
Grey Wolf

I never finished the series, but did Rowling really Santa With Muscles her story?

[Aeson]

I never finished the series, but did Rowling really Santa With Muscles her story?
Little Tom Riddle lived in an orphanage, and at some point in time he and his fellow orphans went out on a field trip to somewhere on the English seacoast. Young Tom Riddle and two "friends" went off along the cliffside and somehow or other ended up exploring a cave, and when Riddle and his "friends" came back, his "friends" were too terrified to say more than that they'd gone into a cave with Tom. Somewhere around thirty or forty years later, Voldemort decided to hide one of his horcruxes in this obscure, mostly-inaccessible cave which young Tom Riddle and two other orphans entered before Tom ever went to Hogwarts. The lady running the orphanage mentioned this incident to Dumbledore when he came to tell little Riddle that he was a wizard as one of the 'odd' things that happened around little Tom Riddle which caused her some concern.

At some point after Dumbledore started looking for Voldemort's horcruxes, he remembered being told of this incident and presumably went looking for someone connected with the orphanage who might tell him more about it or for records which might tell him where the orphanage trip went, or spent a lot of time searching the English seacoast for a cave which might possibly have. However he does it, Dumbledore finds the cave and brings Harry to it in order to attempt to retrieve a horcrux.


Dumbledore mentions the cave "has known magic".
The thing about the cave is that it's not at all clear that the magic that the cave has "known" refers to the horcrux, the protections that Voldemort placed upon the cave (at minimum a requirement to make a minor blood sacrifice to enter the cave), the additional protections around the horcrux inside the cave, whatever Voldemort may presumably have done to Regulus Black if he found him there alive, or something else entirely - even, perhaps, echoes of whatever young Tom Riddle did that terrified his two companions, if anything beyond merely getting into and out of the cave was necessary.

As to the locket and the diary:

There was a musical box that emitted a faintly sinister, tinkling tune when wound, and they all found themselves becoming curiously weak and sleepy until Ginny had the sense to slam the lid shut; also a heavy locket that none of them could oepn, a number of ancient seals and, in a dusty box, an Order of Merlin, First Class, that had been awareded to Sirius's granfather for "Services to the Ministry."
I don't see anything there that suggests that the locket held more of a fascination for Harry, Hermione, and the Weasleys than simple curiosity as to what was inside. I would be inclined to think that the fascination that the diary held for Harry (and, presumably, Ginny) was at least as much a feature of its weaponization as of its status as a horcrux, and it might be worth mentioning that no one but Harry (and presumably Ginny) seems to have felt this fascination with the diary despite in some cases handling it - certainly Arthur Weasley wouldn't have given it to Ginny if he'd felt something was 'off' about the books, and both Ron and Hermione seem to have been convinced that it was just a blank diary until Harry discovered how to interact with it.


He must be so jealous of Voldemort.
Honestly, I feel like Voldemort could very reasonably be at least as jealous of Xykon as Xykon could be of Voldemort. Discorporate Voldemort is an almost-powerless evil spirit waiting for something to give him the opportunity to reincarnate - someone like Quirrel allowing him to possess them, someone like Wormtail performing some presumably-obscure Dark Magic rituals to give his master a body once again, possibly someone like Ginny giving a horcrux too much power over herself - while Xykon will reincarnate unaided maybe a few days after being disembodied.

[woweedd]

Little Tom Riddle lived in an orphanage, and at some point in time he and his fellow orphans went out on a field trip to somewhere on the English seacoast. Young Tom Riddle and two "friends" went off along the cliffside and somehow or other ended up exploring a cave, and when Riddle and his "friends" came back, his "friends" were too terrified to say more than that they'd gone into a cave with Tom. Somewhere around thirty or forty years later, Voldemort decided to hide one of his horcruxes in this obscure, mostly-inaccessible cave which young Tom Riddle and two other orphans entered before Tom ever went to Hogwarts. The lady running the orphanage mentioned this incident to Dumbledore when he came to tell little Riddle that he was a wizard as one of the 'odd' things that happened around little Tom Riddle which caused her some concern.

At some point after Dumbledore started looking for Voldemort's horcruxes, he remembered being told of this incident and presumably went looking for someone connected with the orphanage who might tell him more about it or for records which might tell him where the orphanage trip went, or spent a lot of time searching the English seacoast for a cave which might possibly have. However he does it, Dumbledore finds the cave and brings Harry to it in order to attempt to retrieve a horcrux.


The thing about the cave is that it's not at all clear that the magic that the cave has "known" refers to the horcrux, the protections that Voldemort placed upon the cave (at minimum a requirement to make a minor blood sacrifice to enter the cave), the additional protections around the horcrux inside the cave, whatever Voldemort may presumably have done to Regulus Black if he found him there alive, or something else entirely - even, perhaps, echoes of whatever young Tom Riddle did that terrified his two companions, if anything beyond merely getting into and out of the cave was necessary.

As to the locket and the diary:

I don't see anything there that suggests that the locket held more of a fascination for Harry, Hermione, and the Weasleys than simple curiosity as to what was inside. I would be inclined to think that the fascination that the diary held for Harry (and, presumably, Ginny) was at least as much a feature of its weaponization as of its status as a horcrux, and it might be worth mentioning that no one but Harry (and presumably Ginny) seems to have felt this fascination with the diary despite in some cases handling it - certainly Arthur Weasley wouldn't have given it to Ginny if he'd felt something was 'off' about the books, and both Ron and Hermione seem to have been convinced that it was just a blank diary until Harry discovered how to interact with it.


Honestly, I feel like Voldemort could very reasonably be at least as jealous of Xykon as Xykon could be of Voldemort. Discorporate Voldemort is an almost-powerless evil spirit waiting for something to give him the opportunity to reincarnate - someone like Quirrel allowing him to possess them, someone like Wormtail performing some presumably-obscure Dark Magic rituals to give his master a body once again, possibly someone like Ginny giving a horcrux too much power over herself - while Xykon will reincarnate unaided maybe a few days after being disembodied.
Plus, it's implied Harry feels such a connection to the diary because He's a Horcrux himself. He notes that, despite having never heard the name before, he feels an odd connection to this "Tom Riddle", as if he was an old friend who he forgot about.

[Seward]

I would assume (I don't know if the process has been explicitly described somewhere) the process of becoming a demilich (still the most bogus of names/naming schemes) would involve the phylactery in some way, so if Xykon were to go that route, he'd probably discover Redcloak's ruse.


Demiliches (at least in 1st edition, I'll refrain from spoiling the first appearance) were created to have an enemy mastermind immune to most things even high level adventurers could do in order to last long enough to seriously threaten them. Its weaknesses made little sense but once discovered made defeating one quite easy. This was in theme with the tournament module where the first one appeared, which was stuffed with things like that. It had nothing like a phylactery or similar weakness of that sort.

My theory (which was canon in the one Greyhawk campaign I ran for long enough for it to matter) was that The Demilich (there was only one) was a lich that said "Hey, I'm immortal. The only limit on casting Wish is that I age (there was no XP cost in 1st ed for wish or any other similar spell, just years off your life). It's good to be a lich". So it wished for all kinds of things, including immunity to everything it could think of, plus quite a few things that showed up in that tournament module. And at some point its body dissolved into dust due to age and it stopped wishing for things because it was worried about its skull finally breaking down. That left it with a handfull of oddball weaknesses that adventurers could learn about and eventually use to defeat it, after the body count of dead overconfident adventurers entering its stronghold got sky high enough for them to start thinking. (when I played the module, our cleric's deity didn't want his highest level priest anywhere near the demi-lich so wouldn't give any information, and contact higher plane lead to....misinformation. But we did eventually get it right, although the final battle required loyalty checks from all the henchmen reading the low level spell scrolls necessary to defeat the damn thing once their high level wizard boss got her soul sucked away in the middle of the fight)

[Seward]

Not even that!

It should have been clear, after the fight with the ghost paladins, that keeping his phylactery on hand, was extremely dangerous. If team Evil loses in battle, the phylactery is immediately gained by the good guys. You'd think that after they came so close to dying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html), and having it explicitly stated as being at risk, they'd consider putting it somewhere safe. And yet... it took actually losing it physically before he put his mind to it.

I always figured it was more an "Evil Overlord Handbook thing".

If you hide anything important to your survival some damn hero will wander across it and destroy it by accident, and you won't even know.

If you have it in sight at all times, you at least know where it is and that can't happen. But yeah, after a couple close calls, trying to fort it up was a reasonable alternate approach.

[Ezekiel]

As far as hiding the phylactery is concerned, are there any magic dampening items like orihalcum in this universe? like in slayers lina commented on orihalcum hiding the philosophers stone after she put a spell on it to be unable to be tracked.

So, are there any spells like that?



I seem to remember :redcloak: casting Greater Obscure Object, which I'm assuming does something similar.

[WolvesbaneIII]

I'm wondering what kind of undead xykon can make.

Can he make an undead clone of himself? RC made some random guys who were not xykon, but "looked" like him due to just being skeletons.

What are the limits of undead he can make? can he raise a corpse and put his skills and mind into it?

What about wish? I read about it on a site and I'm wondering if he has that spell and some how used it for plot related things?

Maybe some home brew magic item he made.

[Caerulea]

Can he make an undead clone of himself? RC made some random guys who were not xykon, but "looked" like him due to just being skeletons.

What are the limits of undead he can make? can he raise a corpse and put his skills and mind into it?

He has Create Undead, and Animate dead, so anything they can do, he can do. I though Redcloak had summoned those undead somehow, rather than created them. He might be able to do that as well, if not he could demand Redcloak do it. Also, since he is epic, he can do anything that involves the seed Animate Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/animateDead.htm). If I understand the rules correctly, he could, using that seed, raise a vampire and then use an item of Mind Seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSeed.htm) to overwrite it with his mind. Really, he is Epic so there is little out of reach.


What about wish? I read about it on a site and I'm wondering if he has that spell and some how used it for plot related things?

Maybe some home brew magic item he made.
According to The Class and Level Geekery Thread, he does not have wish (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22690895&postcount=3). Of course, Rich can later decide he has whatever magic item/spell necessary, but it is likely he won't be granted wish, because it translates into "do whatever you want" which makes him even more ridiculously powerful. (Yes I know, with some optimization he could basically be a god, but so could V. It's irrelevent)

[Peelee]

What about wish? I read about it on a site and I'm wondering if he has that spell and some how used it for plot related things?

All else aside, Wish is infamous for bring a spell you really don't want to use lightly for an unlisted effect. It can do a lot of things, but DMs are actively encouraged by the rules to monkeys-paw it in proportion to how powerful the wisher wants the Wish to be, if it works at all.

[WolvesbaneIII]

He has Create Undead, and Animate dead, so anything they can do, he can do. I though Redcloak had summoned those undead somehow, rather than created them. He might be able to do that as well, if not he could demand Redcloak do it. Also, since he is epic, he can do anything that involves the seed Animate Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/animateDead.htm). If I understand the rules correctly, he could, using that seed, raise a vampire and then use an item of Mind Seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSeed.htm) to overwrite it with his mind. Really, he is Epic so there is little out of reach.

According to The Class and Level Geekery Thread, he does not have wish (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22690895&postcount=3). Of course, Rich can later decide he has whatever magic item/spell necessary, but it is likely he won't be granted wish, because it translates into "do whatever you want" which makes him even more ridiculously powerful. (Yes I know, with some optimization he could basically be a god, but so could V. It's irrelevent)

So he does have the ability to make a vampire? Dang. Thats some cheese right there. But what else do you expect from a master of the undead?

So wish is not an unthinkable spell for him to have then?

Can wish make you lose a level if you use it too much? he did mention gaining a level recently, unless he just got so much he upped his level with some combat xp.

[Peelee]

Can wish make you lose a level if you use it too much? he did mention gaining a level recently, unless he just got so much he upped his level with some combat xp.
It absolutely will.


Wish
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, XP

XP Cost

The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.

[snowblizz]

As far as hiding the phylactery is concerned, are there any magic dampening items like orihalcum in this universe? like in slayers lina commented on orihalcum hiding the philosophers stone after she put a spell on it to be unable to be tracked.


Lead, the poor man's divination blocker. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0895.html)

[Caerulea]

It absolutely will.
No. (source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components))


XP Cost (XP)Some powerful spells entail an experience point cost to you. No spell can restore the XP lost in this manner. You cannot spend so much XP that you lose a level, so you cannot cast the spell unless you have enough XP to spare. However, you may, on gaining enough XP to attain a new level, use those XP for casting a spell rather than keeping them and advancing a level. The XP are treated just like a material component—expended when you cast the spell, whether or not the casting succeeds.

[Kish]

Xykon did not mention gaining a level recently. Or ever, including Start of Darkness, that I can think of.

[PhantomFox]

He did, however, mention getting XP in the recent dungeon

[Peelee]

No. (source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components))

Huh. And now you know how often I used spells with XP components.

[D.One]

Huh. And now you know how often I used spells with XP components.

It could be worse: you could have used them and your DM made you lose levels due to XP expenditure... :smallbiggrin:

[zimmerwald1915]

Think the gates in OotS - we have never been told why they don't just bury them in magical cement, but they don't.
Girard did, or something close.

[Peelee]

Think the gates in OotS - we have never been told why they don't just bury them in magical cement, but they don't.Girard did, or something close.

Looks like Serini wasn't too far off either. She certainly did get the magical cement, at any rate.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Girard did, or something close.

It was covered in a thin sheet of lead and a bit of fake wall. If I could get through that with a hammer, chisel and a crowbar, magical cement that ain't.


Looks like Serini wasn't too far off either. She certainly did get the magical cement, at any rate.

Ummm, no. As far as we have been told, there is still one door you can take and, after a few level-inappropriate challenges, get to the gate (leaving aside the usual "it's actually under the statue" argument).

I'm not saying they aren't well defended. I'm saying that they left ways to get to it. Girard had stairs and doors to it, Serini a cave.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Ummm, no. As far as we have been told, there is still one door you can take and, after a few level-inappropriate challenges, get to the gate (leaving aside the usual "it's actually under the statue" argument).

I'm not saying they aren't well defended. I'm saying that they left ways to get to it. Girard had stairs and doors to it, Serini a cave.

Grey Wolf

I was being flippant about the magical cement, even thought she lacked the buried part. Brevity is the soul of misunderstanding weak jokes on the internet.