Bard with dual specialization

[Warchon]

Is there any justification for two Perform skills in a fairly high op game where maxing a skill for fluff reasons is a bad idea?
Obviously a Bard can carry two different instruments, or just put a handful of points into Singing so they aren't gimped if their instrument gets smashed. That's a half reasonable justification already.
But are there any feats or PrCs that could turn this into an actual reliably useful tool?

[Hiro Quester]

Snowflake wardance and Slippers of Battledancing warrant putting at least 6 ranks into Perform (dance).

And if you do that, and want some Metamagic Shenanigans, a level of Spelldancer isn't a completely silly idea. Dancing to pay for metamagic warrants having Perform (dance) decently high.

So unless you also inspire your friends through interpretive dance (I have never been able to role-play that), doing your inspiring, and other perform-check-related activities (melodic casting), though perform (sing) or Perform (oratory) seems a good idea too.

I have never seen the sense of making your inspiration depend on holding an instrument. You want to hold weapons or wands. So put only enough ranks into perform (instrument) to not embarrass yourself when accompanying your awesome singing or storytelling.

Or into an instrument you don't have to hold; Perform (kazoo) or something like that.

[ShurikVch]

Is there any justification for two Perform skills in a fairly high op game where maxing a skill for fluff reasons is a bad idea?If your PC get their hands(/claws/tentacles/.../whatever) on two (or more) sufficiently different instruments which are have useful magical properties related to performing with them?..


Obviously a Bard can carry two different instruments, or just put a handful of points into Singing so they aren't gimped if their instrument gets smashed.That part reminded me of Francis in the "Tazmanian Lullaby (https://watchcartoonsonline.la/watch/taz-mania-episode-19-tazmanian-lullaby-deer-taz-a-taz-manian-moment/)". :smallsmile:


But are there any feats or PrCs that could turn this into an actual reliably useful tool?How about the Multivoice feat, where one head is singing, and another - playing on some wind instrument?

[Zaq]

I have a vague memory of there being a +2 bonus on certain Perform checks if you're able to accompany yourself (singing and playing an instrument that doesn't occupy your mouth at the same time, for instance), but I don't recall what (or where) the actual rules text is. Maybe Song and Silence, assuming that I'm not just missing an obvious entry in the PHB?

Assuming that I'm not just making this up entirely, I know that making an actual Perform check is only rarely your primary concern on such a character, but hey, a +2 is a +2.

[Hiro Quester]

I have a vague memory of there being a +2 bonus on certain Perform checks if you're able to accompany yourself (singing and playing an instrument that doesn't occupy your mouth at the same time, for instance), but I don't recall what (or where) the actual rules text is. Maybe Song and Silence, assuming that I'm not just missing an obvious entry in the PHB?

Assuming that I'm not just making this up entirely, I know that making an actual Perform check is only rarely your primary concern on such a character, but hey, a +2 is a +2.

Ooh. That's a good point. Some instruments give extra bonus abilities if you use them for your bardic music performances. You need perform ranks for that bardic music ability to use them, though.

JoshuaD's New bard handbook (http://www.joshuad.net/new-bard-handbook/#mundane-instruments) has a list of masterwork and magical instruments and the bonuses they offer.

See complete Adventurer for the uses of Masterwork instruments. A masterwork lute grants a bonus level to inspire courage for instance. That might be worth it sometimes, if you don't need your hands for other tasks. It requires sufficient (not many) ranks in perform (string instruments) though.

The bard I played a few years a go got a *lot* of good mileage out of using the Horn of Resilience, for Inspire Greatness. Granting DR5/- is okay. 50 temporary hit points for one recipient (yourself or the party tank) is awesome. But that means you need at least 9 ranks in perform (wind instruments).

A Lyre of Building has a lot of very good uses (does the work of 100 people working for 3 days). But you have to be able to maintain perform (string instrument) checks to use it over a longer period of time. (My bard used one to play all day to help very quickly rebuild a town after a devastating simultaneous dragon attack and earthquake.)

Edit: Lyre of building require you to make a DC 18 Perform check to keep playing past an hour. Failure means you have to stop and can't use lyre again for a week. Be able to tap that DC even when you roll a 1.

[Torpin]

sometimes you need to play an instrument, sometimes you gotta make a speech, I always use 3.0 perform where each rank gives you another thing you can perform with

[Ruethgar]

There was somewhere in another official book that also granted masterwork+ lutes the ability to let you perform 2 bardic songs simultaneously, however it failed to say if you could use perform lute for the secondary or if it had to be singing or some other perform, but that would certainly be a reasonable house rule to make the lute less powerful sinc eyou would have to split your skill points(not much of a balancing factor but it is something). Make it an elvencraft, bow bladed, neck bladed lutebow with 4 wand chambers and you have yourself a very good weapon instrument.

[liquidformat]

There was somewhere in another official book that also granted masterwork+ lutes the ability to let you perform 2 bardic songs simultaneously, however it failed to say if you could use perform lute for the secondary or if it had to be singing or some other perform, but that would certainly be a reasonable house rule to make the lute less powerful sinc eyou would have to split your skill points(not much of a balancing factor but it is something). Make it an elvencraft, bow bladed, neck bladed lutebow with 4 wand chambers and you have yourself a very good weapon instrument.

It was a 3.0 book, I want to say song and silence but I might be wrong. most everything I wanted to point out has already been described below so won't repeat. On side notes there are some bayonet style attachments for weapons in complete scoundrel (at least pretty sure it is complete scoundrel). Also there is a feat inside of complete adventurer that lets you use your perform skill for a number of different other instruments equal to your cha modifier or something like that. Will have to look it up when I am home...

[Luckmann]

Snowflake wardance and Slippers of Battledancing warrant putting at least 6 ranks into Perform (dance).

And if you do that, and want some Metamagic Shenanigans, a level of Spelldancer isn't a completely silly idea. Dancing to pay for metamagic warrants having Perform (dance) decently high.Oh, man, how come I've never stumbled across Spelldancing before? That's a hilarious and insanely powerful way to cast metamagic, especially things like extended persistent spell. Every evening, prepare spells for the upcoming 48 hours, and if you get fatigued or exhausted, just go to bed.

In some ways, this is more powerful than Divine Metamagic, because it doesn't cost a feat and can be used with all metamagic you have. Just maximize the hell out of Constitution, invest heavily in +Dancing, and Sandals of the Vagabond (immunity to Exhaustion).

[Warchon]

Also there is a feat inside of complete adventurer that lets you use your perform skill for a number of different other instruments equal to your cha modifier or something like that. Will have to look it up when I am home...

That one in particular sounds like paydirt. The sheer versatility of playing five instruments for the skill points of one could come in nice and handy..particularly if it isn't actually limited to instruments (Dancing, for all the tricks others have mentioned, Comedy for Jester fun)


Oh, man, how come I've never stumbled across Spelldancing before? That's a hilarious and insanely powerful way to cast metamagic, especially things like extended persistent spell. Every evening, prepare spells for the upcoming 48 hours, and if you get fatigued or exhausted, just go to bed.

In some ways, this is more powerful than Divine Metamagic, because it doesn't cost a feat and can be used with all metamagic you have. Just maximize the hell out of Constitution, invest heavily in +Dancing, and Sandals of the Vagabond (immunity to Exhaustion).

Not to say Spelldancing doesn't look potentially powerful (and definitely flavorful!) but it's not quite accurate to say it doesn't cost a feat, since the class itself costs FOUR feats, largely of questionable value to a bard. If straight up metamagic shenanigans is your goal it is probably more efficient to just take Metamagic Song and Extra Music and not lose a level of music progression.

[tstewt1921]

I had a bard with multiple perform skills because he was an instrument collector, he would collect countless ones, some magical some not magical just because it's what he liked to do, and the magical ones needed certain ranks to perform/use the magic from them.

[Warchon]

Found the feat Liquid was talking about: Versatile Performer. It uses INT, not CHA, but is otherwise exactly what they described and is good for all types of Perform!

[Hiro Quester]

Not to say Spelldancing doesn't look potentially powerful (and definitely flavorful!) but it's not quite accurate to say it doesn't cost a feat, since the class itself costs FOUR feats, largely of questionable value to a bard. If straight up metamagic shenanigans is your goal it is probably more efficient to just take Metamagic Song and Extra Music and not lose a level of music progression.

Yeah, it's a bit niche. Debatably good if you use a bard base to prestige into Swiftblade, though, since they have common prerequisites.

Metamagic song can help power a decent amount of persistent spells.

[liquidformat]

Found the feat Liquid was talking about: Versatile Performer. It uses INT, not CHA, but is otherwise exactly what they described and is good for all types of Perform!

yep I have picked it up on a few characters, I was thinking something I said didn't sound quite right but couldn't remember if it was the ability or number of perform skills or both. Either way it is a fun one for characters with a decent int score...