Crossbow build help

[iTreeby]

I've been thinking about making my next character a crossbow user. Obviously crossbow expert is a must as is sharp shooter. my problem is I can't decide what class or multi class to use.
On the one hand champion fighter's expanded crit range is tempting on the other hand so is gloom stalker Ranger. Hex blade is also appealing. Hand crossbow is good for the extra attack but rangers use their bonus action on hunters mark/ warlocks use hex...

Id appreciate a few build pitches. What have you seen work best?

[Man_Over_Game]

I've been thinking about making my next character a crossbow user. Obviously crossbow expert is a must as is sharp shooter. my problem is I can't decide what class or multi class to use.
On the one hand champion fighter's expanded crit range is tempting on the other hand so is gloom stalker Ranger. Hex blade is also appealing. Hand crossbow is good for the extra attack but rangers use their bonus action on hunters mark/ warlocks use hex...

Id appreciate a few build pitches. What have you seen work best?

I'd usually say that Crossbow Expert works best if these criteria are met:
The character has few attacks.
The character has few uses for their bonus action.
The character relies on Dexterity.

The best example that fits all three of those criteria is the Rogue. Getting around the Sneak Attack issue might be a concern, which is why you instead choose to be an Inquisitive Rogue, who can "spot" their target at any range with a single bonus action. After that, use your Light Crossbow for long range sniping, and just swap to your hand crossbow to gun them down when they get close. Considering the Inquisitive Rogue works really well at longer ranges, and Sharpshooter can improve both long-ranged and short-ranged crossbows, I'd recommend grabbing Sharpshooter first and then getting Crossbow Expert afterwards.

Fighter already has enough attacks, and any long range crossbow (Heavy Crossbow) is going to get trumped by a longer range Longbow that needs no feat, and the Hand Crossbow for the bonus action isn't going to be much better than the TWF options the Fighter has that requires less investment, cheaper weapons, and the relevant feat (Dual Wielder) grants you AC AND damage.

Other good Crossbow Expert options include Hunter Rangers who neglect spellcasting (to not interfere with their bonus action), Devotion Paladins (who can enhance the weapon and get more value out of it), and Death Clerics.

[Vogie]

Chain Pact Hexblade + Assassin Rogue with hand crossbow. You'll only have a single attack, so you won't need Crossbow Expert.

You get expanded crit range, guaranteed crits at the beginning of the fight, and a dedicated invisible advantage source for the rest of the fight. In addition, you're SAD with Charisma

[Misterwhisper]

I'd usually say that Crossbow Expert works best if two criteria are met:

The character has few attacks.
The character has few uses for their bonus action.
The character relies on Dexterity.

The best example that fits all three of those criteria is the Rogue. Getting around the Sneak Attack issue might be a concern, which is why you instead choose to be an Inquisitive Rogue, who can "spot" their target at any range with a single bonus action. After that, use your Light Crossbow for long range sniping, and just swap to your hand crossbow to gun them down when they get close.

Fighter already has enough attacks, and any long range crossbow (Heavy Crossbow) is going to get trumped by a Longbow that needs no feat, and the Hand Crossbow for the bonus action isn't going to be much better than the TWF options the Fighter has that requires less investment, cheaper weapons, and the relevant feat (Dual Wielder) grants you AC AND damage.

Other good Crossbow Expert options include Hunter Rangers who neglect spellcasting (to not interfere with their bonus action), Devotion Paladins (who can enhance the weapon and get more value out of it), and Death Clerics.

With the new "Alert Feat errata" I have seen multiple people who were playing a Rogue just quit and reroll.

I have never seen the issue with Hex/Hunter's mark.

You don't have to use your bonus action to move it immediately so just move it when you need to, also at low levels I am not going to waste a spell slot on classes with so few spells for 1d6 extra damage per attack when you only get one attack per round normally, the bonus action attack is just plain better use of resources.

Now if you have like 3+ attacks in a round, sure it can be nice, but again you just move it when you need it.
Why put it on a mook you will kill in 2 hits anyway?

Ex.

Level 4, so first feat unless variant human.

You could use a bonus action and one of your 2 or 3 spell slots to hex/mark a target, now you add 1d6 when you attack it assuming you hit.
Or
You you could just use that bonus action to shoot it again, if it is range.

I personally just put my hex/mark on the biggest bag of HP and then fire away if I am over level 5, if I am not, I don't even bother.

[Man_Over_Game]

Chain Pact Hexblade + Assassin Rogue with hand crossbow. You'll only have a single attack, so you won't need Crossbow Expert.

You get expanded crit range, guaranteed crits at the beginning of the fight, and a dedicated invisible advantage source for the rest of the fight. In addition, you're SAD with Charisma

It's worth mentioning that the Improved Pact Weapon Invocation explicitly says it cannot be used with a hand crossbow (or rather, it allows everything that's NOT a hand crossbow). Everything else is valid, though.

[Willie the Duck]

Honestly, if your only goal is to crossbow your way through combat, all the wacky warlock or rogue or bard with swift quiver as a magic secrets or whatever builds spend a huge amount of time and effort recreating what the fighter gets inherently--lots of high damage attacks. Either Champion (more crits) or BattleMaster (to use the Precise maneuver to confirm those missed SS attacks) increase this damage. EK is mostly to do what ranger/rogue/bard/warlock does--give you more things to do on top of shooting a crossbow. Ranger is probably my favorite class, and it is great at ranged. But even it... you take it so you can have a bunch of wilderness stuff and utility spells and such along with the ranged attack, not because it out-ranged-attacks a dedicated fighter.

I think, more important than total damage output, what the fighter does best is not have long dead spots involved in getting you towards your goal. Most of the 'builds' (warlock or bard or X/Y/Z multiclasses or the like) will have some point where you either aren't getting two attacks at level 5 or don't have all of the components of your build together. The fighter has a smooth transition over all levels of play (or at least as smooth as can be, what with number of attacks jagging up in discreet leaps of damage output.

[sigfile]

I play a trickshot artist / highwayman for Adventurers League. Variant Human Battle Master fighter combined with Assassin rogue using a hand crossbow.

Anything combining Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter will be effective in a fight. The Battle Master maneuvers have been absolutely devastating at range, disarming opponents, shooting enemies out of the sky, or just ensuring he doesn't miss. Goading Strike at range is just mean. The Assassin's surprise round absurdity almost never comes up (when it does, though...), but the free advantage against enemies that haven't yet acted in a fight combined with extra attack, Action Surge, and the Crossbow Expert bonus attack make for horrifying nova rounds.

On top of that, he gets an extra skill, thieves' tools, expertise, and fantastic battlefield mobility. He's a solid character in and out of fights. He'll likely end up Fighter 12 / Rogue 8 by the time he's done.

[Vogie]

It's worth mentioning that the Improved Pact Weapon Invocation explicitly says it cannot be used with a hand crossbow (or rather, it allows everything that's NOT a hand crossbow). Everything else is valid, though.

It also cannot create slings, blowguns, and nets. I don't know why you'd want it to that, but if you did, it can't.

But yeah, that's why I chose Chain Pact - You can still use Hex Warrior with Hand crossbows, as it lacks the 2 handed property. Also Rogues love advantage, but usually can't get a invisible source of it until they reach level 13 of Arcane Trickster.

[Misterwhisper]

It also cannot create slings, blowguns, and nets. I don't know why you'd want it to that, but if you did, it can't.

But yeah, that's why I chose Chain Pact - You can still use Hex Warrior with Hand crossbows, as it lacks the 2 handed property. Also Rogues love advantage, but usually can't get a invisible source of it until they reach level 13 of Arcane Trickster.

Nifty trick with pact of the chain:

You can dismiss your pet at will and bring it back, whatever it is holding goes with it.

Had your pet your weapon, go wherever you want. when the time comes, summon your pet and it drops your weapon in your hand.

Also handy for smuggling just about anything.

[Willie the Duck]

Nifty trick with pact of the chain:
You can dismiss your pet at will and bring it back, whatever it is holding goes with it.
Had your pet your weapon, go wherever you want. when the time comes, summon your pet and it drops your weapon in your hand.
Also handy for smuggling just about anything.


Is there somewhere I am not seeing where this is spelled out, or are you using 'the rules don't specify that they can't' line of reasoning?

[Man_Over_Game]

Is there somewhere I am not seeing where this is spelled out, or are you using 'the rules don't specify that they can't' line of reasoning?

I think Mearls said that he'd allow the familiar to hold something for a minute, before the item appeared out of thin air (as if summoning the Familiar). Crawford has stated that the Familiar cannot take anything that it doesn't have on its stat block.

So officially, your familiar can't teleport stuff, but your DM always has the option of changing rules on the fly.

[Vogie]

Nifty trick with pact of the chain:

You can dismiss your pet at will and bring it back, whatever it is holding goes with it.

Had your pet your weapon, go wherever you want. when the time comes, summon your pet and it drops your weapon in your hand.

Also handy for smuggling just about anything.

That's not RAW, and the only ruling I see talking about it is a Mike Mearls tweet from 2015 saying they could, but for only a brief period of time (he suggests 3d6 minutes). Stackexchange discussion on the topic with links (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/61979/can-i-use-my-familiar-as-a-safety-deposit-box).

It's a familiar, not a Jumper.



So officially, your familiar can't teleport stuff, but your DM always has the option of changing rules on the fly.

I could see that as a thing they'd do if you DON'T ask the DM for it. Having your familiar randomly steal food and whatnot from you seems very fun, rp-wise.

[Misterwhisper]

Is there somewhere I am not seeing where this is spelled out, or are you using 'the rules don't specify that they can't' line of reasoning?


A familiar can attune items, and use them if they are able. A pact of chain Sprite comes with leather armor, and other items, if it couldn't they would show up with no gear/items.

Dismissal is just moving it to a pocket dimension, it is planar travel like any other plane traveling spell like banishment or plane shift.

Dismissal is not turning it back into a spirit form and recorporealizing it.

[Keravath]

It's worth mentioning that the Improved Pact Weapon Invocation explicitly says it cannot be used with a hand crossbow (or rather, it allows everything that's NOT a hand crossbow). Everything else is valid, though.

Sure. However, the hex warrior feature which allows the use of charisma for to hit and damage only requires weapons without the 2-handed property so it works fine with hand crossbows. You just can't create a hand crossbow as a pact weapon ... which is probably why they are pact of the chain in the example.

However, as a multiclass hexblade/rogue they might be pushing up their dex in preference to charisma anyway.

[Willie the Duck]

A familiar can attune items, and use them if they are able.

Where. Does. It. Say. That? If we're just going to go through another round of 'well it doesn't say that the can't, so I assume I'm right' that pretty much boils down to 'check with your DM,' can we just skip to the end and say, 'check with your DM'?


A pact of chain Sprite comes with leather armor, and other items, if it couldn't they would show up with no gear/items.

As stated above, Crawford has stated that the Familiar cannot take anything that it doesn't have on its stat block. Leather armor is in the stat block. It is not evidence in support of your conclusion.

[Misterwhisper]

Where. Does. It. Say. That? If we're just going to go through another round of 'well it doesn't say that the can't, so I assume I'm right' that pretty much boils down to 'check with your DM,' can we just skip to the end and say, 'check with your DM'?



As stated above, Crawford has stated that the Familiar cannot take anything that it doesn't have on its stat block. Leather armor is in the stat block. It is not evidence in support of your conclusion.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/02/11/do-magic-items-attuned-to-a-familiar-count-against-the-arcanists-total/

the number of items attuned to your familiar do not count against your own.

So yes, your familiar can attune items.

Also before you complain that a familiar is just a spirit

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/11/22/is-familiar-a-creature-or-a-spirit/

Also you seem extremely angry over this whole ,If we are going to go through the whole it doesn't say I can't thing, despite the fact I never said that, ever.

[Man_Over_Game]

As stated above, Crawford has stated that the Familiar cannot take anything that it doesn't have on its stat block. Leather armor is in the stat block. It is not evidence in support of your conclusion.

I did just try to double check on that. I couldn't find my original source (maybe I got it mixed up with something), but I did find that Find Steed cannot bring any items back with it, which uses similar wording to Find Familiar on how it gets sent back to it's pocket dimension. So, for now, it really depends on whether your DM says that Find Steed and Find Familiar use similar items rules.

[TheHutz]

I'd usually say that Crossbow Expert works best if these criteria are met:
The character has few attacks.
The character has few uses for their bonus action.
The character relies on Dexterity.


Fighter already has enough attacks, and any long range crossbow (Heavy Crossbow) is going to get trumped by a longer range Longbow that needs no feat, and the Hand Crossbow for the bonus action isn't going to be much better than the TWF options the Fighter has that requires less investment, cheaper weapons, and the relevant feat (Dual Wielder) grants you AC AND damage.



Can you offer some clarification to what you say above? In your example are you recommending using two hand xbows with the dual wielder feat? I don't think that's possible due to needing a freehand to load between shots.

I've found a that the bonus action attack is very useful at low levels. This paired with with the Archery Fighting Style and Battlemaster's precision attack you can completely nullify the sharpshooter penalty. Then with the occasional action surge you put out some pretty incredible burst damage, while also having very competitive DPR when those abilities aren't available.

The parry maneuver as a dex based ranged fighter saved my bacon a number of times as well. I wouldn't overlook the battlemaster fighter if you're looking for a strong SS and Crossbow Expert user.

[Innocent_bystan]

You could be a half-elf (+2Cha), take 3 levels of Warlock for Darkness/Devil's sight and have Elven Accuracy (+1 Cha), choose Hexblade as you patron to attack with Charisma.

You can position yourself so the party isn't caught in the darkness and attack 2-3 times with sharpshooter/trivantage/hexblade's curse. Stuff dies fast.
Disclaimer: I have played a similar build (Eldritch Knight 8 / Hexblade 2) and I found it gets really boring, really fast.

[Man_Over_Game]

Can you offer some clarification to what you say above? In your example are you recommending using two hand xbows with the dual wielder feat? I don't think that's possible due to needing a freehand to load between shots.

I've found a that the bonus action attack is very useful at low levels. This paired with with the Archery Fighting Style and Battlemaster's precision attack you can completely nullify the sharpshooter penalty. Then with the occasional action surge you put out some pretty incredible burst damage, while also having very competitive DPR when those abilities aren't available.

The parry maneuver as a dex based ranged fighter saved my bacon a number of times as well. I wouldn't overlook the battlemaster fighter if you're looking for a strong SS and Crossbow Expert user.

Sorry, I guess that could appear confusing. I don't mean to say that you can use TWF with Hand Crossbows. I mean to say that a TWF Fighter will need fewer investments to *be able* to attack with their bonus action, or get more value out of it if they do decide to invest into it. A specialized Crossbow Expert Fighter is good, but a specialized TWF Fighter is better, partially because the melee version can use its higher AC and HP to mitigate damage for the team. A Crossbow Expert can do the same, but doesn't deal as much damage in melee compared to the TWF version, and has slightly less AC.

Looking at it, though, the only real difference between the two options is that TWF with Dual Wielder grants +1 damage on each attack (so roughly +3 damage per turn) and has +1 AC, where the Archery Fighting Style grants you +2 damage on ranged attacks, so a Crossbow Expert Fighter really isn't such a bad idea after looking at it more thoroughly.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I'm in a similar situation myself. I've got an upcoming goblin character (has to be a goblin, no substitutions allowed), below-average rolled stats that will only allow for above a 15 in Dexterity and nothing better than a 12 for secondaries, and three levels to play with at first. I built the rest of the table first- they all had fantastic rolls that allowed for some rather interesting characters. Then I saw that ranged support was the only thing I could reasonably excel at (one player is adamant about only ever playing rogues, so she's going arcane trickster), and due to my small size Crossbow Expert + hand crossbow + shield is the closest thing to optimal I can think of. But I'll have to wait a level for it first, during which I'll be better served by a shortbow.

I'm going pure Battlemaster Fighter for now. The maneuvers give me support capabilities that can eclipse my function as a damage dealer and help the party. These are useful for a while, but my damage noticeably lags behind multiclassing into rogue for sneak attack. Maneuvers are more useful for the role I have in mind, but I'm worried about how far my damage is going to fall off. Rogue also nets me much better skill support, though I'm not sure it's really necessary in this party. I'll have several levels to think about it, at least.

Sharpshooter's a must, of course. And if you're going to go hand crossbow + shield and find yourself with an odd ability score at some point like me, Medium Armor Master can make you a reasonable tank, too. 20 AC without magic is pretty stellar for a ranged character.

I'm considering Skulker later to maximize the advantages afforded by Nimble Escape. It has synergy issues with CE and the hand crossbow by competing for my bonus action each round, but I figure if my problem is deciding between two strong options, I don't really have a problem. It's an absolute must if I decide to go rogue later for easy sneak attack setup.

If I'd gotten just one 16+ score, I might have tried ranger instead. Their spell support really fits this build better, I think.