Need assistance looking at the balance of Homebrew TWF!

[Laird]

Hi all, long time lurker first time account holder here!

Inspired by Mike Mearls' take on TWF I decided to give a crack at a modified and more sensical TWF ruleset. This is mostly prompted by me finally getting to play a PC and one of the other PCs chose to be a Halfling Barbarian Berserker who Dual Wields handaxes...
There is not a lot of support in most builds for TWF and it dramatically falls off as a fighting style in terms of combat effectiveness once you allow feats. Thus I decided to revise some things...

Firstly we need to revise the original rules on TWF... which seem fair but make it so at higher levels TWF consumes your bonus action for very little in return. At high levels there is so much cool stuff you can do with BA's. Under my revision, TWF works as such out of the box for anyone...

Two Weapon Fighting


While wielding a light weapon in both hands, when you take the attack action you may make another attack with your offhand. This attack does not add your proficiency to the attack roll and does not add your modifier to the damage role.

What this does is functionally make it so anyone can have an "extra" attack but it is at a slight disadvantage and at most makes it so DW shortswords is a slightly worse two handed sword that does piercing.

The benefit is that Rogues (some of whom like to DW for the extra sneak attack) can still do that. They also still have their bonus action.

"Well, Laird thats all well and good but what about classes that take the fighting style?"

Two Weapon-Fighting style


When you take this fighting style you may Stow or Draw both your light weapons at the same time. You also add your proficiency bonus to the attacks made with your offhand.

This now makes dual-wielding competitive with the Great Weapon Fighting style and the Archery style. It's slightly worse then just attacking with a Greatsword, BUT extra attacks allow you to do neat things. More smites, more on hit effects, more poison applications...

All well and good, but what about the feast...GWM or sharpshooter? Nothing can compete with those...

This one was a bit challenging for me... conceptually.
I want an effect that allows the use of non-light weapons. That said... 2d8 + Mod make sit better than a Greatsword...
So what effect do we use... I opted for a nice thematic and flavourful one.

Two Weapon Mastery


When you take this feat you may use a non-light one-handed weapon in your mainhand while you wield a dagger in your offhand.
You also add your modifier to the damage of your offhand.
Every time you are given an extra attack you may add an additional die of the same type to your offhand attack.


This results in Flexibility. This results in power and most importantly it gives scaling damage to the TW fighting style. The benefits of this result in more accurate and precise strikes. The damage modifier is +5 spread across your multiple attacks. Whereas Great Weapon Master thematically focusses on brute strength for damage, this feat allows the showcasing of the dexterity and precision one must have to utilize two weapons with deadly efficiency. While leaving players with bonus actions more agency.

Here are some edge cases where you can argue that it might be overpowered.

Monks: They get Monk weapons and Bonus action attack...(or flurry of blows)
A TW Monk at level five can make 2 attacks + 1 special attack + 1(or 2) bonus action attack(s).
Assuming the Monk die is used thats 1d6.


With ASI TWF: 2 attacks with proficiency and mod 2d6 + 8, + no proficiency 2d6, + 1d6(2d6) + 3(*2)
Total if all hit... 5(6)d6 + 12 (16) avg = 29.5 (37)

With Feat TWF: 2 attacks with proficiency + mods + 1 attack no proficiency + mod + bonus action + mods
Total if all hit... 5(6)d6 + 12 (15) avg = 29.5 (36)

**** Keep in mind the extra attack the monk gets thats free does more damage then a single hit BUT its at no proficiency, (which is not too bad at low levels but at higher levels it is WORSE then advantage (-6 vs -5)***

There is a high chance that the attack misses and the monk does regular damage. Now lets compare that with a monk using a versatile weapon...
Versatile Monk ASI: 2 Attacks proficiency and mod 2d10 + 8 + 1d6(2d6) + mod
Total if all hit: 2d10 + 8 + 1d6(2d6) + 4(*2) avg = 27.5 (34)

DW is slightly better now but monks would have to multiclass to hit those numbers more frequently remember not adding proficiency to the attack that does more damage means they have a HIGH chance of missing. I imagine with the amount their offhand would miss (not being trained and all) brings the totals more in line.

Now let's look at the other edge case of the berserker barbarian... bonus action attack (that gives exhaustion)

We will compare GWM and TWF barbs. (They do not get a fighting style so no Prof + draw/stow for them)

Normally a frenzy Barb will definitely be using a two hander.

2H(Maul or Greatsword) with ASI: The 2H Barb attacks twice and frenzy attacks a third time. 3 attacks with proficiency plus mod for a
Total of 6d6 +12 avg = 33 (higher if raging) and exhaustion.

2H(Maul or Greatsword) with GWM: Same deal, 3 Attacks with proficiency but can bonus attack on kill (or frenzy) and can -5 + 10.
Total (assuming they use -5 +10 once!): 6d6 + 19 avg = 40 (with or without exhaustion)

TWF with ASI: 3 attacks + 1 attack without proficiency or damage mod.
Total is 3d6 + 12 + 1d6 avg = 26 (raging makes this a bit better as rage still applies to the non-prof offhand attack)

TWF with Feat: 3 attacks + mods + 1 attack without prof + mod
Total is 3d6 + 9 + 2d6 + 3 avg = 29.5 (again more if raging)

The benefit here is that with TWF you have an extra chance to apply your Rage MOD making it competitive and scalable as a barb.
The focus here is that TWF allows for more normalized DPR as it generally has a higher chance to hit then a GWM using the -5 benefit. The result is a more spiky damage focused on brutality for the heavy weapon user vs a more precise and dextrous style for the TWF. FLAVOUR. MECHANICS. WONDERMENT!

On average GWM will still be the most damaging but it won't be the only competitively viable playstyle. TWF allows for more tactics and less smashy smash. It gets even better with the actual fighting style. To note only the number of dice rolled gets improved by 'Extra Attacks' the mod does not. (That would be broken).

If any of you have any questions feel free to PM or post here, and if any of you are math savvy and bored.. running some numbers could be cool!


Thanks for reading!

[stoutstien]

I am also currently taking a crack at a twf fix that is more fun/flexible.
I think removal of Prof to attack is adding bloated mechanics to a style that is already the most complicated. [B]in my opinion [b] twf should be about making more attacks that hit more often but for less damage than 2handed. Your idea makes it feel like the PC is just swinging weapons recklessly with hope they hit.
The drawing/stowing two weapons is something that should be just base line. I am a member of few historical weapons fighting clubs and not once have I seen someone trained in twf take longer to ready two weapons vs one. It a unnecessary text bloat that needsti be stuck on style or feat where if it was just in the basic twf rules it clears room for stuff that matters.

Your feat is too restrictive. Can't find words to express ATM but it shoe horn player into one style of twf and isnow a feat tax

[Man_Over_Game]

With your ruling, with Extra Attack, does the offhand provide 2 attacks, or just one with two damage dice? If it's the latter, I can really see this working out. If it's the former, it'd be far too powerful with options like Hex or Hunter's Mark, or virtually anything dealing damage per hit.

One big concern I have is trying to make TWF unique in use when compared to heavy weapon fighting or using a shield. In this case, it doesn't really have too much of its own identity, where using the Bonus Action did. Using the BA might not have been the best in terms of long-term use, but at least it felt unique.

Balance-wise your changes are good, but I look forward to TWF being more than "Deals slightly less damage".

[Laird]

I think removal of Prof to attack is adding bloated mechanics to a style that is already the most complicated....
...Your feat is too restrictive. Can't find words to express ATM but it shoe horn player into one style of twf and isnow a feat tax

If I could rephrase the weapons you could be proficient in I would add 'Two-Weapon Fighting' as a weapon proficiency, however to make it less feat taxy we have this option...

Two-Weapon Fighting

When a player has two light weapons in their hands when they take the Attack action they may make a special attack with their offhand. Do not add your modifier to the damage dealt. If a player has two weapons that are light, they may stow or draw them at the same time.

Reasoning: If you are untrained in a style it's harder to hit rapidly and precisely with your less dominant hand. My friend fenced for several years with two styles, one with a buckler and one with a parrying knife. When I tried to emulate him naturally my offhand strikes where much less powerful and useful. I was able to ready both weapons without difficulty...

Two-Weapon Fighting Style

When you choose this fighting style add your modifier to damage with your special attack. You may also use a non-light one handed weapon in your mainhand that counts as light for the purposes of drawing or stowing.

Reasoning: The fighting style is less bloated and still is a beneficial advantage without relying too much on a feat tax. In non-feat games the advantage is making more than one attack that allows stacking with effects like Hex, Hunter's mark.. Etc.


Two-Weapon Mastery

-When a class feature gives you an extra attack add an extra damage die to your special weapon attacks made with your offhand.
-When you make a special weapon attack you may choose to do it at -3 to hit, if you do, add +6 to the damage done.
-If you took the Attack action, you may also make an additional special weapon attack with your offhand as a bonus action


If you are playing with feats this is a feat tax but anyone who uses Archery or GW's take their respective feats so that doesn't matter. These revisions give it flexibility and damage while keeping competitive with other styles. As for allowing each offhand attack a damage roll.. that would make the feat unbalanced as it would stack with things like Hex, Hunter's mark and Rage to the point of making any other fighting style strictly worse.


With your ruling, with Extra Attack, does the offhand provide 2 attacks, or just one with two damage dice?

It's the latter, it provides extra damage dice but only one attack. I modified the Feat to allow for a bonus action extra special attack that should make it not just less than GWM. Assuming you have some way to capitalize on extra attacks. I don't have numbers for these changes however but it should make it more or less on par with GWM.

[mer.c]

I don't have time for a thorough read right now, but I just posted a comprehensive combat overhaul with a completely reworked TWF system here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?575485-Comprehensive-Combat-Tweaks-Feedback-Wanted). If you think it might help to have a little food for thought, give it a look.

[JackPhoenix]

Main users of TWF are rogues. Your houserules screw them over, as they don't get fighting styles. And you already do get penalty for being untrained in TWF: you won't add your ability modifier.

[Laird]

Main users of TWF are rogues. Your houserules screw them over, as they don't get fighting styles.

Perhaps you are right... That also makes the Two Weapon fighting style redundant. Here is my proposed change.

TWF:
You may stow or draw two light weapons at the same time. If you are wielding two light weapons in each hand and take the attack action you may make a special attack with your offhand. Do not add your modifier for the damage.

TWF Style:
When you choose this fighting style you add your ability modifier to damage dealt with the special offhand attack. You may also wield a weapon in your mainhand without the light property provided it is one handed, this can be drawn or stowed as if it were a light weapon.

DW feat:
When a class feature gives you an extra attack add an extra damage die to your special weapon attacks made with your offhand.
-When you make a special weapon attack you may choose to do it at -3 to hit, if you do, add +6 to the damage done.
-If you took the Attack action, you may also make an additional special weapon attack with your offhand as a bonus action

[djreynolds]

I have used TWF rend. It's easy and fair.

If you have both TWF style and duel wield,
Hit with main hand and off hand, you can use your reaction.
1. Add proficiency to damage.
2. Kick off and disengage
3. Trip Or shove.

It simple, costs something, and gives an option for damage, escape, or utility.