Necromancer Command Undead tricks

[Ryunosuke]

Starting at 14th level, as an action, you can choose one undead that you can see within 60 feet of you. That creature must make a Charisma saving throw against your wizard spell save DC. If it succeeds, you can't use this feature on it again. If it fails, it becomes friendly to you and obeys your commands until you use this feature again.

If the target has an Intelligence of 8 or higher, it has advantage on the saving throw. If it fails the saving throw and has an Intelligence of 12 or higher, it can repeat the saving throw at the end of every hour until it succeeds and breaks free.

So as a huge Necromancy fan, I'm looking into ways to take advantage of the capstone ability as much as possible. By RAW and without any kind of 'foul play', a Mummy Lord is generally considered the most powerful undead that can be made permanently controlled due to their Intelligence score.

I am however looking into ways to 'cheat' the ability. I'm aware that Feeblemind can potentially let one perma-control any target they choose if successful (Ally Diviners really help here), but this also hinges on DM Discretion about Feeblemind ending, and if their Intelligence going back up suddenly re-warrants new saves against Command Undead or not.

So methods that may exist to inflict permanent loss of Intelligence, or other secretly amazing undead with 11 or less Intelligence if possible would be really cool.

I usually play Adventures League since I lack the ability to set up regular homebrew if that means much.

[JackPhoenix]

Intellect devourer. Works on anything with a brain with Int <19. Problem is, it lowers Int to 0 and stuns the target as long as the Int is 0. Good luck finding undead with brain and immunity to stun, though... flameskulls are immune, but lack brain. And better luck finding the devourer.

Nightwalkers have Int 6 and are CR 20 undead, but they are not fun to keep around, and I don't think you'll find one in AL.

[Ryunosuke]

Intellect devourer. Works on anything with a brain with Int <19. Problem is, it lowers Int to 0 and stuns the target as long as the Int is 0. Good luck finding undead with brain and immunity to stun, though... flameskulls are immune, but lack brain. And better luck finding the devourer.

Nightwalkers have Int 6 and are CR 20 undead, but they are not fun to keep around, and I don't think you'll find one in AL.

Intellect Devourer can simply be True Polymorphed into as needed. The real problem is there exists no method to only patrially restore the Intelligence of a victim or remove the stun and keep the Intelligence at 0 because 5e apparently isn't a fan of Ability Damage/Drain mechanics.

As for Nightwalkers. They are absolutely sexy as hell, but the aura seems a tad problematic for the rest of the party unless i just...keep it in my demiplane and planeshift/banishment an enemy into my undead flooded demiplane instead. Getting one in AL would also be more along the lines of asking my DM to add it as a 'thematically appropriate addition' to an existing encounter.

[Sigreid]

Help an adult white dragon become a dracolich and then enslave it?

Edit: Or ancient even now that I look at it.

[MaxWilson]

Intellect Devourer can simply be True Polymorphed into as needed. The real problem is there exists no method to only patrially restore the Intelligence of a victim or remove the stun and keep the Intelligence at 0 because 5e apparently isn't a fan of Ability Damage/Drain mechanics.

Well, there is one method: Power Word: Heal.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work on undead.

Edit: I guess it might work if you Polymorphed your perma-stunned Death Knight or whatever into a perma-stunned bunny rabbit, then cast Power Word: Heal on that bunny rabbit to end the Stunned condition.


As for Nightwalkers. They are absolutely sexy as hell, but the aura seems a tad problematic for the rest of the party unless i just...keep it in my demiplane and planeshift/banishment an enemy into my undead flooded demiplane instead. Getting one in AL would also be more along the lines of asking my DM to add it as a 'thematically appropriate addition' to an existing encounter.

I'd far rather have a mummy lord, death tyrant, or white dragon dracolich than a Nightwalker. Nightwalkers are just a pain in the neck due to the aura and relative lack of interesting abilities. They're basically just negative energy giants with a paralyzing, slow-recharge ranged attack instead of boulders.

Frankly I think a mummy lord or Feebleminded Death Tyrant is the way to go here, instead of messing around with Intellect Devourers. If you're not sure where to find one, that's what the Sage background is for!

[Ryunosuke]

Help an adult white dragon become a dracolich and then enslave it?

Edit: Or ancient even now that I look at it.

An Ancient White Draclich is in theory, perhaps the most powerful permanent Command Undead target, but AL has some specific rules about modifying a monster and the Dracolich Template doesn't note a CR adjustment or something like that since a DM can't make adjustments that would change the CR or the like.

[Ryunosuke]

Well, there is one method: Power Word: Heal.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work on undead.

I'd far rather have a mummy lord, death tyrant, or white dragon dracolich than a Nightwalker. Nightwalkers are just a pain in the neck due to the aura and relative lack of interesting abilities. They're basically just negative energy giants with a paralyzing, slow-recharge ranged attack instead of boulders.

Frankly I think a mummy lord or Feebleminded Death Tyrant is the way to go here, instead of messing around with Intellect Devourers. If you're not sure where to find one, that's what the Sage background is for!

Yea the only issue is that an Ancient White Dracolich can't exist in AL currently unless one is specifically written in somewhere. And while I greatly dislike Feeblemind because it locks out spell casting and makes the victim more or less mindless in terms of function, I'd rather use it for a Death Knight or Death Giant (Storm Giant Death Knight with huge size, inflated HP, and Strength basically) would likely be the ideal target otherwise, even if they lose the spells. I dislike Death Tyrants/Beholders due to their overly random nature honestly.

[MaxWilson]

An Ancient White Draclich is in theory, perhaps the most powerful permanent Command Undead target, but AL has some specific rules about modifying a monster and the Dracolich Template doesn't note a CR adjustment or something like that since a DM can't make adjustments that would change the CR or the like.

I'd be more interested in a death tyrant since infinite Disintegrate has way more utility for building cool stuff than a dragon does. Infinite zombies minions isn't necessarily bad either.

[Ryunosuke]

I'd be more interested in a death tyrant since infinite Disintegrate has way more utility for building cool stuff than a dragon does. Infinite zombies minions isn't necessarily bad either.
Finger of Death and the nearby village does the same if I really want that. And they'd benefit from my Undead Thralls, being explicitly better

[MaxWilson]

Yea the only issue is that an Ancient White Dracolich can't exist in AL currently unless one is specifically written in somewhere. And while I greatly dislike Feeblemind because it locks out spell casting and makes the victim more or less mindless in terms of function, I'd rather use it for a Death Knight or Death Giant (Storm Giant Death Knight with huge size, inflated HP, and Strength basically) would likely be the ideal target otherwise, even if they lose the spells. I dislike Death Tyrants/Beholders due to their overly random nature honestly.

I don't know if you saw my edit, but you might be able to True Polymorph a rock into an intellect devourer, use that (plus maybe Feeblemind + Bestow Curse in advance to soften up your target) to reduce your Lich's (or whatever's) Int to 0, then Polymorph the Lich into a bunny rabbit so it is not undead, then Power Word: Heal the bunny rabbit so it is no longer perma-stunned, then end Polymorph so it turns back into a lich, which is still Int 0 but no longer stunned.


Finger of Death and the nearby village does the same if I really want that. And they'd benefit from my Undead Thralls, being explicitly better

In practice, Finger of Death is really hard to use that way because it takes soooooo long to accumulate your minions--plus now you're murdering civilians instead of just getting free minions every time you kill another hobgoblin. (And if you're going to be a murderous murdering murderer, you probably would rather True Polymorph yourself into a shadow dragon and kill the civilians with your breath weapon to make shadows, instead of zombies. Undead Thralls zombies are very defensively strong, but Shadows are IMO more interesting.)

But the Disintegrate for mining/tunnelling is the main thing I'd want anyway. The minions thing is just a fringe benefit. (Inflicting six saving throws per round on enemies isn't a bad fringe benefit either, as a way of eating up legendary resistances.) YMMV.

[Ryunosuke]

I don't know if you saw my edit, but you might be able to True Polymorph a rock into an intellect devourer, use that (plus maybe Feeblemind + Bestow Curse in advance to soften up your target) to reduce your Lich's (or whatever's) Int to 0, then Polymorph the Lich into a bunny rabbit so it is not undead, then Power Word: Heal the bunny rabbit so it is no longer perma-stunned, then end Polymorph so it turns back into a lich, which is still Int 0 but no longer stunned.

---

In practice, Finger of Death is really hard to use that way because it takes soooooo long to accumulate your minions--plus now you're murdering civilians instead of just getting free minions every time you kill another hobgoblin. (And if you're going to be a murderous murdering murderer, you probably would rather True Polymorph yourself into a shadow dragon and kill the civilians with your breath weapon to make shadows, instead of zombies. Undead Thralls zombies are very defensively strong, but Shadows are IMO more interesting.)

But the Disintegrate for mining/tunnelling is the main thing I'd want anyway. The minions thing is just a fringe benefit. (Inflicting six saving throws per round on enemies isn't a bad fringe benefit either, as a way of eating up legendary resistances.) YMMV.

Well yes, either way the self made minions are better. As for the Death Tyrant, that's...a rather specific use and would be time consuming with the random rays honestly. I also am unsure if Power Word:Heal on a polymorphed target would even work since the Devourer ability strictly just states they are stunned until they regain intelligence. Meaning it seems that Power Word: Heal just wouldn't work, or becomes DM Discretion.

[lunaticfringe]

True Polymorph or Shapechange into a Shadow Dragon and go on a Dragon breath humanoid killing spree. The shadows are permanently under your command (though a DM could argue you lose control if you drop Dragonform).

I like shadows better than zombies. They have a decent array of resistances and +1 to hit over Zombies. The best part is Strenth Drain which kills things if there Strength hits zero, meaning a swarm of shadows is potentially quite lethal.

[MaxWilson]

Well yes, either way the self made minions are better. As for the Death Tyrant, that's...a rather specific use and would be time consuming with the random rays honestly. I also am unsure if Power Word:Heal on a polymorphed target would even work since the Devourer ability strictly just states they are stunned until they regain intelligence. Meaning it seems that Power Word: Heal just wouldn't work, or becomes DM Discretion.

Duration is irrelevant if the condition is directly countered.

"A condition lasts either until it is countered (the prone condition is countered by standing up, for example) or for a Duration specified by the effect that imposed the condition."

Ref: https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Conditions#content

But yes, everything is DM discretion. It doesn't matter what we say here on the Internet. What matters is what the DM thinks.


True Polymorph or Shapechange into a Shadow Dragon and go on a Dragon breath humanoid killing spree. The shadows are permanently under your command (though a DM could argue you lose control if you drop Dragonform).

I like shadows better than zombies. They have a decent array of resistances and +1 to hit over Zombies. The best part is Strenth Drain which kills things if there Strength hits zero, meaning a swarm of shadows is potentially quite lethal.

The fact that they are immune to frightening, restraining, grappling, etc. is also quite useful. For example you can throw Web or Evard's Black Tentacles on your enemies to restrain them, and then sic your shadows on them to finish them off (at advantage!) at no risk of friendly fire.

[Segev]

Undead are no longer immune to charm monster and dominate monster. You can upcast those after using your Undead Thrall ability to force them into compliance, and then order them to fail the save on the high-level spell slot you expend to nab them for an extended period.

[Ryunosuke]

Undead are no longer immune to charm monster and dominate monster. You can upcast those after using your Undead Thrall ability to force them into compliance, and then order them to fail the save on the high-level spell slot you expend to nab them for an extended period.
I could be wrong here, but I am like...99% sure you can't just order something to fail a save against harmful or detrimental effects such as Feeblemind, or Command Undead perma enslavement.

[MaxWilson]

I could be wrong here, but I am like...99% sure you can't just order something to fail a save against harmful or detrimental effects such as Feeblemind, or Command Undead perma enslavement.

Agreed.

If you could order dominated monsters to fail saves, then there would be no point in Dominate Monster granting extra saves on damage, because you'd just make them fail. That shouldn't work.