How do I maximize my AC?

[Ortho]

My current character is a Wood Elf, Champion Fighter 10/ Rogue 2. I've taken the Defense Fighting Style and the feat Medium Armor Master, and I've got a +1 armor and a +1 shield. With all of that, my AC comes up to 23.
Also, because Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica just dropped, my DMs are being nice and allowing us to retcon our characters into one of those races. I'm thinking of going with Simic Hybrid, so I can snag an additional +1AC.
So my question is this: Are there any obscure feats/multiclass options/magic items/other that a Fighter can take to boost my AC even further?


Wood Elf

STR: 14
DEX: 17
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 14
CHA : 8

Feats:
-Tough
-Medium Armor Master
-Elven Accuracy

Champion Fighter Fighting Styles:
-Defense
-Archery

Items:
+1 enchanted half-plate armor
+1 shield

[Skyblaze]

Other than magic items, forge cleric. You'd need heavy armor though. Also, you'd get shield of faith.

[Unoriginal]

Why did you take Medium Armor Master?

[SirGraystone]

With a very high AC, most of the hit you'll receive will be critical, so search for an adamantite plate armor.

[Willie the Duck]

Access to Shield of Faith and Shield spells would be the best next step. Although you are seriously already past the point of diminishing returns. Focusing on mitigating non-AC-based attacks and/or increasing offense to the point where you face fewer rounds of assault will be more efficient than eking out another point or two of AC.

[UnintensifiedFa]

Don’t, besides magic items and other buffs you may get, try instead to gain effects that can negate very high rolls, as those are the only ones that will hit you.

[stoutstien]

Ac has a sharp diminishing returns effect after 22 AC (based on +hit of NPCs) due to bounded accuracy. You could have 100 AC and still get hit 5-10% of the time so having a deeper effective hp pool and at later lvs better mental stat saves help more than stacking AC.
Note: at lower lvs AC is king. A forge cleric with shield of faith and a dip for defense fighting style can 24 AC at lv 2 if you get ahold of plate.

[sithlordnergal]

So, you wanna be a tank:

You're on the right track to be honest. Medium Armor Master is absolutely perfect for Rogue/Fighters, giving you the AC of Plate without having to max out your Dex. The +1 armor, +1 shield, and fighting style are good too. The only thing I can recommend is going Arcane Trickster to get Shield, and somehow getting your hands on Shield of Faith or Haste. After that its up to the DM, cause you'll only be able to boost your AC beyond 29 with magic items. You'll want to keep an eye out for +2 or +3 shields and armor, Cloak of Protection, Ring of Protection, or Cloak of Displacement.

[Ortho]

Other than magic items, forge cleric. You'd need heavy armor though. Also, you'd get shield of faith.

Oh huh, I forgot about forge domain. That'll definitely give me a boost, but I'm not really sure I want to have heavy armor because I forgot to mention that...


Why did you take Medium Armor Master?

...the campaign I'm in uses the Variant Encumbrance rules, so the lighter option is better for me. Half-plate + Medium Armor Master gives me the same AC as Plate, with the bonus of being half the price, 2/3 the weight, and I no longer have disadvantage on Stealth rolls. Which also means that I can hide as a Bonus Action and get Sneak Attack damage, and then Elven Accuracy happens.
Basically, it synergizes really well with a DEX build, which is what I'm going for.


With a very high AC, most of the hit you'll receive will be critical, so search for an adamantite plate armor.

Don’t, besides magic items and other buffs you may get, try instead to gain effects that can negate very high rolls, as those are the only ones that will hit you.

I'll keep an eye out for adamantine armor.


Access to Shield of Faith and Shield spells would be the best next step. Although you are seriously already past the point of diminishing returns. Focusing on mitigating non-AC-based attacks and/or increasing offense to the point where you face fewer rounds of assault will be more efficient than eking out another point or two of AC.

Way ahead of you. I've currently got a ton of unused dragon scales, so I'm trying to convince some NPCs to incorporate the scales into my armor so I get resistance to those damage types. So far, my +1 shield gives me acid resistance because I put black dragon scales on it.


Ac has a sharp diminishing returns effect after 22 AC (based on +hit of NPCs) due to bounded accuracy. You could have 100 AC and still get hit 5-10% of the time so having a deeper effective hp pool and at later lvs better mental stat saves help more than stacking AC.
Note: at lower lvs AC is king. A forge cleric with shield of faith and a dip for defense fighting style can 24 AC at lv 2 if you get ahold of plate.

Drop the focus on AC and switch to mental stats? That's heresy, I want more AC! :smallbiggrin:


So, you wanna be a tank:

You're on the right track to be honest. Medium Armor Master is absolutely perfect for Rogue/Fighters, giving you the AC of Plate without having to max out your Dex. The +1 armor, +1 shield, and fighting style are good too. The only thing I can recommend is going Arcane Trickster to get Shield, and somehow getting your hands on Shield of Faith or Haste. After that its up to the DM, cause you'll only be able to boost your AC beyond 29 with magic items. You'll want to keep an eye out for +2 or +3 shields and armor, Cloak of Protection, Ring of Protection, or Cloak of Displacement.

That's my train of thought as well. But you're saying that I can get an AC of 29 without magic items? Could you elaborate?

[stoutstien]

Oh huh, I forgot about forge domain. That'll definitely give me a boost, but I'm not really sure I want to have heavy armor because I forgot to mention that...



...the campaign I'm in uses the Variant Encumbrance rules, so the lighter option is better for me. Half-plate + Medium Armor Master gives me the same AC as Plate, with the bonus of being half the price, 2/3 the weight, and I no longer have disadvantage on Stealth rolls. Which also means that I can hide as a Bonus Action and get Sneak Attack damage, and then Elven Accuracy happens.
Basically, it synergizes really well with a DEX build, which is what I'm going for.




I'll keep an eye out for adamantine armor.



Way ahead of you. I've currently got a ton of unused dragon scales, so I'm trying to convince some NPCs to incorporate the scales into my armor so I get resistance to those damage types. So far, my +1 shield gives me acid resistance because I put black dragon scales on it.



Drop the focus on AC and switch to mental stats? That's heresy, I want more AC! :smallbiggrin:



That's my train of thought as well. But you're saying that I can get an AC of 29 without magic items? Could you elaborate?

Plate 18 (or med armor master)
Shield 2
Forge cleric 1
Defense fs 1
Haste 2
Shield of faith 2
Shield reaction 5

[DarkKnightJin]

With a very high AC, most of the hit you'll receive will be critical, so search for an adamantite plate armor.

Yeah, my Fighter is kinda sad that he has +1 Mithral instead of Adamantine Plate. Though, he's 6th level, and doesn't really get to complain about not being the loudest in the party.
That role is reserved for the Tempest Cleric.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Plate 18 (or med armor master)
Shield 2
Forge cleric 1
Defense fs 1
Haste 2
Shield of faith 2
Shield reaction 5

Is that possible without magic items? Don't both Haste and Shield of Faith require concentration?

But...yeah. Darn hard to hit!

[Misterwhisper]

I you are able to change races to races not in the ravnica book.

Warforged are for you.

Your current build, changing only the race would be:

Built in Armor of the war forged medium armor is 13 + dex of 2 + prof (4) so 19 base
+ 3 more for your +1 shield
+ 1 from your fighting style

that is still 23 depending on if your dm allows Medium armor master to stack with it could be 24.
The feat specifies "Wearing armor" but war forged is just "armored".
Also the war forged medium armor does not have disadvantage on stealth in the first place so you may get to trade out a feat that does not help you.
When you hit 13 it will go up by another +1 just because of your proficiency bonus.
If you do not need the stealth for the day you could just go with the heavy armor version and get +1 from the heavy armor having a base of 20 ac at level 12.

So could be a 24, depending on a few things, in one level 25.

Also, it eliminates a lot of weight for you so encumbrance would be even better, and you could sell your +1 armor or give it to a team mate.

I never had one but I am pretty sure that cloak/ring of protection stacks with shield and normal armor so that would be another +1.

Downside: you can never benefit from armor so you couldn't get adamantine armor ability for no crit damage, which is very nice.

[Nhorianscum]

11 champ (3rd attack) is pretty high priority, and I'd focus on that alongside maxing dex (or not if you have a belt of giant str) before worrying about more AC. 15 is a big level for champ and 17 brings our second surge/short rest. At this point saves and offense are more valuable than raw AC so res (wis), shield mastery, and maxed dex (if you're not rocking a belt of giant str) are better overall.

To actually answer the topic...

AT 3 for shield 3/day is the easy boost. 28 ac on demand is hard to beat and works nicely here. Defensive Duelist will give us a similar result and can free up our class progression a bit but I prefer shield.

If you're looking to absolutely maximize defenses you can cap fighter at 15 and swing into cleric for 2 levels grabbing first level features, channel divinity, and shield of faith for another +2 AC and on demand.

If you're looking for a full retcon to really maximize AC at the cost of offense we're looking to ebberon instead of ravnica. Warforged and Beasthide shifter are both extremely buff offering either shifting hp+1AC on a short rest or 13+ profmod+dex (+3) AC.

So at champion11/AT3/Forge cleric 6 (Warforged) with a +1 shield we get 13+3+6+2+5+3+1+1+1 AC at 20 for 35 AC with only the +1 shield. At a +3 shield with all 3 attunement slots set to defensive items we reach 44ish AC after disadvantage (cloak).

With the more offensive version we get 17 Champion/3rouge (Wood Elf) Rolling deep with either 16 dex and a belt of giant str or 20 dex, an offensive attunement via goodweapon, and 2 defensive attunements we hit 28 AC with shield or duelist with a +1 shield, with a +3 on shield and armor and 2 defensive items we reach 38ish AC after disadvantage.

TL:DR buff offenses and saves and take shield or defensive duelist 23+shield or duelist and some way to impose disadvantage already renders you nigh-unhittable.

[Man_Over_Game]

That's my train of thought as well. But you're saying that I can get an AC of 29 without magic items? Could you elaborate?

He's talking about +5 from Shield, + 2 from Shield of Faith, +2 from Haste, +2 from a normal shield, +3 from Medium Armor Master and 16 Dex, with a base 15 with Half Plate.

I guess you could also have Warding Bond for 30 AC?

[stoutstien]

He's talking about +5 from Shield, + 2 from Shield of Faith, +2 from Haste, +2 from a normal shield, +3 from Medium Armor Master and 16 Dex, with a base 15 with Half Plate.

I guess you could also have Warding Bond for 30 AC?
Crap I knew I missed alow lv spell that stacked

[Ortho]

Plate 18 (or med armor master)
Shield 2
Forge cleric 1
Defense fs 1
Haste 2
Shield of faith 2
Shield reaction 5

He's talking about +5 from Shield, + 2 from Shield of Faith, +2 from Haste, +2 from a normal shield, +3 from Medium Armor Master and 16 Dex, with a base 15 with Half Plate.

I guess you could also have Warding Bond for 30 AC?

Oh I see. Yeah, that's pretty solid. I'd add another +1 for Simic Hybrid. Also:


Is that possible without magic items? Don't both Haste and Shield of Faith require concentration?

But...yeah. Darn hard to hit!

So I'd only get 30 AC instead of 32. Still impressive, though, and I guess I can always ask someone else to buff me.


I you are able to change races to races not in the ravnica book.

Warforged are for you.




11 champ (3rd attack) is pretty high priority, and I'd focus on that alongside maxing dex (or not if you have a belt of giant str) before worrying about more AC. 15 is a big level for champ and 17 brings our second surge/short rest. At this point saves and offense are more valuable than raw AC so res (wis), shield mastery, and maxed dex (if you're not rocking a belt of giant str) are better overall.

To actually answer the topic...

AT 3 for shield 3/day is the easy boost. 28 ac on demand is hard to beat and works nicely here. Defensive Duelist will give us a similar result and can free up our class progression a bit but I prefer shield.

If you're looking to absolutely maximize defenses you can cap fighter at 15 and swing into cleric for 2 levels grabbing first level features, channel divinity, and shield of faith for another +2 AC and on demand.

If you're looking for a full retcon to really maximize AC at the cost of offense we're looking to ebberon instead of ravnica. Warforged and Beasthide shifter are both extremely buff offering either shifting hp+1AC on a short rest or 13+ profmod+dex (+3) AC.

So at champion11/AT3/Forge cleric 6 (Warforged) with a +1 shield we get 13+3+6+2+5+3+1+1+1 AC at 20 for 35 AC with only the +1 shield. At a +3 shield with all 3 attunement slots set to defensive items we reach 44ish AC after disadvantage (cloak).

With the more offensive version we get 17 Champion/3rouge (Wood Elf) Rolling deep with either 16 dex and a belt of giant str or 20 dex, an offensive attunement via goodweapon, and 2 defensive attunements we hit 28 AC with shield or duelist with a +1 shield, with a +3 on shield and armor and 2 defensive items we reach 38ish AC after disadvantage.

TL:DR buff offenses and saves and take shield or defensive duelist.

Warforged seems one heck of a build, but I can only retcon into a Ravnica race, so I can't use it. I like that Wood Elf build a lot, though.
Also where is Warforged from? I can't recall ever seeing it before now.

[sithlordnergal]

That's my train of thought as well. But you're saying that I can get an AC of 29 without magic items? Could you elaborate?

Well, its using the items you already have. You said you have +1 half plate and +1 shield, yes? With the Shield Spell and either Haste or Shield of Faith you get:

19 AC from +1 Half Plate & Medium Armor Master

3 AC from +1 Shield

+1 from Defense Fighting Style.

This brings you to 23 AC without any spells and using the items you have.

Shield spell grants +5 AC if you are hit, bringing you up to 28.

Haste or Shield of Faith gives you 30 ac.

If you can get Haste and Shield of Faith at the same time, you'll have 27 AC with just the items you currently own, which can be boosted to 32 with the Shield Spell.

NOTE: your base AC is still only 23. You need the spells to get it higher without items

[KorvinStarmast]

Why did you take Medium Armor Master? this may provide some insight into that (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/88396/22566)

Another way to avoid crits:
Get an armor class into the mid 20's, and then attune a cloak of displacement. (Disadvantage on enemy attack rolls)
The Adamantine Armor is a good idea.

[JackPhoenix]

Remember one thing: if the enemy can't hit you, they'll focus on someone more squishy than yourself. That's kinda the opposite of what tanks want.

[ATHATH]

Remember one thing: if the enemy can't hit you, they'll focus on someone more squishy than yourself. That's kinda the opposite of what tanks want.
That's why you pump Intimidate to make them think you're the greatest threat (both defensively and offensively, and in a ratio such that you're actually worth focusing on over your allies).

Well, that or take every opportunity to insult the mothers of your enemies. Doesn't really work too well against fiends (and other outsiders) and creatures that can't understand you, though.

[ATHATH]

this may provide some insight into that (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/88396/22566)

Another way to avoid crits:
Get an armor class into the mid 20's, and then attune a cloak of displacement. (Disadvantage on enemy attack rolls)
The Adamantine Armor is a good idea.
The "insight" in there appears to argue that spending a feat on picking up Medium Armor Master is somehow more efficient than spending a feat on heavy armor proficiency or just starting as a class that gets heavy armor proficiency (or dipping Cleric). I guess you don't have to invest as much in STR?

[Keravath]

11 champ (3rd attack) is pretty high priority, and I'd focus on that alongside maxing dex (or not if you have a belt of giant str) before worrying about more AC. 15 is a big level for champ and 17 brings our second surge/short rest. At this point saves and offense are more valuable than raw AC so res (wis), shield mastery, and maxed dex (if you're not rocking a belt of giant str) are better overall.

To actually answer the topic...

AT 3 for shield 3/day is the easy boost. 28 ac on demand is hard to beat and works nicely here. Defensive Duelist will give us a similar result and can free up our class progression a bit but I prefer shield.

If you're looking to absolutely maximize defenses you can cap fighter at 15 and swing into cleric for 2 levels grabbing first level features, channel divinity, and shield of faith for another +2 AC and on demand.

...

TL:DR buff offenses and saves and take shield or defensive duelist 23+shield or duelist and some way to impose disadvantage already renders you nigh-unhittable.

Just a quick comment. Since the OP is planning on using a shield and a weapon ... they will need the warcaster feat in order to cast shield since it has V and S components.

[JackPhoenix]

Just a quick comment. Since the OP is planning on using a shield and a weapon ... they will need the warcaster feat in order to cast shield since it has V and S components.

If you have to take a feat just to use Shield, you'd be better off with Defensive Duelist instead. Better bonus once the proficeincy gets high enough, no limit on daily number of uses, and with already high AC, you likely won't have to use it more than once per round anyway.

[stoutstien]

If you have to take a feat just to use Shield, you'd be better off with Defensive Duelist instead. Better bonus once the proficeincy gets high enough, no limit on daily number of uses, and with already high AC, you likely won't have to use it more than once per round anyway.
Or 2 lvs in war wizard

[Nhorianscum]

If you have to take a feat just to use Shield, you'd be better off with Defensive Duelist instead. Better bonus once the proficeincy gets high enough, no limit on daily number of uses, and with already high AC, you likely won't have to use it more than once per round anyway.

Not 100% clear on this (the swap to one hand at any time mid bloody attack on a two hander works though so I'm pretty sure this flys at most tables)

Dropping your sword is free. Picking it up again is an item interaction. We don't need to draw out materials for this so this can be done at any time. Shield eats our reaction so OA's are no real issue.

You don't need warcaster for shield. Unless you really like your sword. I suggest buying some rope for that problem. Warcaster is for using spells constantly in mele. We're just spiking 3/day.

Duelist is mele only (?) But the unlimited uses are definitely nice.

[Vexacia]

Access to Shield of Faith and Shield spells would be the best next step. Although you are seriously already past the point of diminishing returns. Focusing on mitigating non-AC-based attacks and/or increasing offense to the point where you face fewer rounds of assault will be more efficient than eking out another point or two of AC.

AC doesn't have diminishing returns, it has expanding returns - AC gets better the more AC you already have. and this increase gets sharper and sharper to the point of absolute absurdity as you get to really high AC values.

like, more AC when you have very little AC gives you a little bit more effective health. going from being hit 90% of the time to 80% of the time (+2 AC at very low AC vs a high to-hit bonus) is around a ~12.6% effective health increase. going from being hit 20% of the time to 10% of the time (+2 AC at very high AC vs a low to-hit bonus) is a 200.0% effective health increase.

okay it's not exactly that simple because crits also factor in, but crits will always hit you no matter if your AC is 5 or 35, so they fall outside consideration.

the only point at which AC stops getting better is when you literally hit the wall of only being able to be hit by nat 20s, which are automatic hits. this will not happen unless you're in a bizarre situation that largely only exists on paper where the DM who doesn't understand bounded accuracy refuses to throw monsters with a high to-hit modifier against you after you intentionally cheese your way into absurd AC numbers.

edit: sidenote, if you're a DM for a player who does AC cheesing and you want to punish them without punishing the rest of your players from the enemies' crazy high attack roll bonus, either throw spellcasters and other saving throws at them or make some enemies with a really high athletics skill and have those enemies go grapple the offending player (grappling bypasses AC and goes straight to a skill contest).

[Willie the Duck]

Vexacia, I think you are missing the forest for the trees.
If someone routinely finds themselves in situations where they are not running out of hit points based on how often they are hit in combat, but are still losing (/failing to accomplish their goals) because they spent all sorts of time and resources trying to eek out that last point of AC (instead of towards accomplishing goals), then they have definitely hit the point of diminishing returns.

Let's say they did MC a couple times to get access to Shield and Shield of Faith, and got that AC from the low 20s to the high 20s. Instead of taking two hits during combat, they took one. If the two hits were not a serious threat, they accomplished something, but not something significant. If it later comes up that they are facing a spellcaster, and fail a Wisdom save vs. Hold Person (and would have gotten their next ASI to pick up resilient: Wisdom if they hadn't been doing the multi-classing shenanigans) and the party bard gets gacked while they're stuck there trying to make a save every round, well then not only did the extra AC not really help them, but it opportunity cost was in fact quite real.

[Keravath]

Not 100% clear on this (the swap to one hand at any time mid bloody attack on a two hander works though so I'm pretty sure this flys at most tables)

Dropping your sword is free. Picking it up again is an item interaction. We don't need to draw out materials for this so this can be done at any time. Shield eats our reaction so OA's are no real issue.

You don't need warcaster for shield. Unless you really like your sword. I suggest buying some rope for that problem. Warcaster is for using spells constantly in mele. We're just spiking 3/day.

Duelist is mele only (?) But the unlimited uses are definitely nice.


The rules say that you only use two hands on a two handed weapon when you are actually attacking with it. As a result, 2-handers are not a problem when you want to also cast spells.

Sword and board is a different story. Dropping a weapon is a free object interaction ... on your turn. There is nothing in the rules that indicate that you can do anything at all except specific reactions when it is not your turn including dropping a weapon. So there are a lot of tables where trying to drop your weapon as a reaction (which isn't specified in the rules as an option) AND cast a spell as a reaction simultaneously, would not work.

You could drop your sword on your turn just in case you need to cast shield but then an opponent could pick it up as their object interaction and you would not have it available for opportunity attacks. Also, even if the table allowed two reactions to drop a weapon and cast a spell simultaneously, opponents can still pick it up as their free object interaction then drop it somewhere inconvenient.

Although warcaster is most useful for melee spell caster ... in this case, if the OP wanted to cast shield then (unless their table allows them to drop their sword at any time) they would need the war caster feat as well.

[Willie the Duck]

Also, dropping your weapon is not consequence free. Opponents can pick them up and run off with them/use them against you. You can be flying/water walking/dangling from a cliff.

[Nhorianscum]

It's wonky, dropping is a totally free action similar to talking (which we can just do at any time within reasonable limits) rather than an item interaction, and we can include the drop action in our somnomatic component as a trigger to bypass the my-turn, your-turn debate. The real problem is more that this involves dropping our weapon than possible dm fiat.

As for dropping your sweet magical sword. This is where EK and Blade pact locks have it made, everyone else has to settle for a 5 ft lenght of chain/rope tied to the hilt which is not even close to 100% foolproof. A not magic sword user can just draw their spare here so cost for them is minimal. That said it's being used a limited amount so we can just stow as an item interaction in turns where shield may be nessecary and theft is possible if we want to and OA with improvised weapon (shield) or replace the attack with a shove/grapple. The last option here has no ambiguity and works just fine at any table.

Warcaster is really not-worth-it unless we're using the whole buffalo. On champion 11 or 15 builds I can absolutely see it. That said with 6 ASI's on the build we're not exactly starved for feats so we can consider the merits of skag warcaster+shield vs Defensive duelist. IMO at 23 base AC we get more from booming blade OA's the ability to skip S components in a grapple and con saves on the likes of THL or silent image with 3/day than the mele only buff of unlimited shield.

At the end of the day it comes down to player and DM preferance here.

[jdolch]

Saying Warcaster is not worth it, because you can drop your sword every 5 seconds is worse meta-gaming than the whole Coffeelock thing. If i were a DM with a player who abused the rules like that, I sure as hell would see his magic sword as a fitting Tax. Some things:

Warcaster isn't all that bad. In addition to hands-full casting, it gives you

Advantage on concentration saving throws, which can be very good.
You can use your reaction to make an opportunity Spell attack, which can also be very good. And Booming Blade automatically activates it's secondary effect on a moving target.


But is it the best feat ever? No, it's a feat Tax on a build that wants to cast with a Shield.
(Caveat: If your DM doesn't let you hold your Focus at the same time this may be really bad. But IMO there is no reason for that. There are multiple options to use a Focus similar to a Paladin using his shield. e.g. embedding it the swordhilt, embedding it in the Shield, or maybe just wearing it and then touching it when you cast might be the best option.)

How good the Defensive Dualist is, depends on your build.

You need to use a Finesse Weapon. That right there completely invalidates it in a lot of cases. It is Players choice of course, but you really want your burly Fighter to run around with a Rapier?
You need 13 Dexterity. Which can be a huge Build Tax all by itself.
You spend your Reaction on it (just like the Shield Spell), which can be used for other things an many builds.


The thing here is: The Shield spell gives you a higher Bonus and it is a level 1 spell. I imagine that from tier 2 onwards the practical usefulness of level 1 slots becomes quite limited. So it's not so bad to use them for this.

And also keep in mind that there are lots and lots of things one might want to cast in combat that have nothing to do with AC.

[Nhorianscum]

You seem to be missing the point entirely. If the situation described was the situation in question I would agree with the argument. It is not, so I do not.

To be clear. Yes. If the OP casts heavily he should take warcaster.

First RAI. The stated intention of feats is to make PC's better at doing things, not to disalow actions without them. (I take issue with this because battlemaster, power attacks, etc. But yeah). We're not gaming the system. We're going "nononono" and shutting off a potentially deadly strike. To be clear. Knowing the rules of the world and their interaction with warcaster? Probably metagaming harder than playing a character who knows how to perform the forbidden act of, opening, their, hand.

For context. 23 AC mele, dex based, champion fighter. With a splash of rouge. Looks like a fun build made by somone who had a really clear idea of what they wanted from a char. Bulky critfisher made to get in first and stay in.

We are not talking about hyperoptimizer mc. powergamepants or super rule lawyer DM.

With a whopping 3 slots on the advancement in question (17/3) we're tossing some emergency AC and some IC/OOC tricks onto the char. We are not building a round-to-round combat spellcaster. Sword on a rope or sheath to cast are not a big deal for the dude with 3 spells daily. By RAW (free actions are totally free) and RAI (Adressed above) this is permisable and is not anything resembling an extreme abuse. It's an "ohsheet" buttton and a fun party trick with some fiddly bits that would get real painful in round-to-round use.

Warcaster absolutely makes casting in combat much, much better, so much so that it is a feat tax for those who wish to cast in close combat. But with a whopping 3 level one slots a day. Who cares? Our main gains here are, not dropping weapon for complete ohsheet moments, and Booming Blade OA's.

As for weapon theft. This is a champion, rouge. Even with 8 str not much is going to be able to play keepaway from it. As a champ AT even less can manage that. It's a concern that needs to be adressed, but unless the DM is a complete phalus this is a moderatly annoying/potentially hilarious moment in waiting rather than a do-or-die. The DM here is allowing cross setting optimization with a retcon, alright pretty sure this will fly. Warcaster is just insurance here and in some games I would totally take it just for that.

With all that in mind our contestants are. Nofeat Shield, DDuelist (picking say, find familiar or another rouge sub), and Shield+Warcaster. Unless we are just dropping OA's all over the place we don't want warcaster here at all (if we are, ohyeah, this is gold). If enemy's are swinging over 23 AC consistantly we want duelist, if enemys are not we can nofeat and potentially grab magic innate or another feat to be ahead of the curve a bit.

I'm fond of the third option as it opens up more options. This is purely my opinion and all 3 options are valid.

Regardless of build, feat, whatever choice. The OP has two whole levels to decide on what they want to do. (Noreally we can all agree, fighter 11 is priority) Most importantly they have time and seem like the sort of person who will talk to their DM about this. So let's stop rule lawyering somone else's game??? (Including myself in this)

[JackPhoenix]

How good the Defensive Dualist is, depends on your build.

You need to use a Finesse Weapon. That right there completely invalidates it in a lot of cases. It is Players choice of course, but you really want your burly Fighter to run around with a Rapier?
You need 13 Dexterity. Which can be a huge Build Tax all by itself.
You spend your Reaction on it (just like the Shield Spell), which can be used for other things an many builds.


The thing here is: The Shield spell gives you a higher Bonus and it is a level 1 spell. I imagine that from tier 2 onwards the practical usefulness of level 1 slots becomes quite limited. So it's not so bad to use them for this.

And also keep in mind that there are lots and lots of things one might want to cast in combat that have nothing to do with AC.

OP has Dex 17 and 2 levels of rogue, which implies he's using finesse weapon. He's level 12, and he'll get next feat in 2 levels at earliest, where his proficiency bonus will be +5, giving him the same AC as Shield, or even a little better at level 17. Furthermore, maximizing AC is his goal, to the point it's in the name of the thread. He also, as of yet, doesn't have ANY spell slots, level 1 or otherwise, despite being in tier 3 (if you insist on that terminology) already, so it's not a trivial cost. He'd have to take a spellcasting subclass just for that one purpose (because at this point, it won't be much useful for anything else).

[Ortho]

How good the Defensive Dualist is, depends on your build.

You need to use a Finesse Weapon. That right there completely invalidates it in a lot of cases. It is Players choice of course, but you really want your burly Fighter to run around with a Rapier?

I do use a rapier as my primary melee weapon, and my burly Fighter is perfectly happy running around with it, thank you very much :smalltongue:. The fact that I routinely have the worst DPS in the group is completely irrelevant to this discussion.



You need 13 Dexterity. Which can be a huge Build Tax all by itself.
I've got 17 Dex. I've been a Dex build from the start



You spend your Reaction on it (just like the Shield Spell), which can be used for other things an many builds.
Believe it or not, I've got nothing else to spend my reaction on.



The thing here is: The Shield spell gives you a higher Bonus and it is a level 1 spell. I imagine that from tier 2 onwards the practical usefulness of level 1 slots becomes quite limited. So it's not so bad to use them for this.


Shield only out-ACs Defensive Dualist for 2 more levels, which is when I get a feat anyways. So I'm not really seeing how Shield is advantageous over Defensive Dualist.

[KorvinStarmast]

The "insight" in there appears to argue that spending a feat on picking up Medium Armor Master is somehow more efficient than spending a feat on heavy armor proficiency or just starting as a class that gets heavy armor proficiency (or dipping Cleric). I guess you don't have to invest as much in STR? No, the insight is that there is more than one way to do it. I really detest the attitude of hair splitting min/maxing optimizishness where there's a pretense that there is only one answer. There are multiple paths to a very high AC.
Pick one.

Consider why I suggest a displacement cloak: it's major feature is that attacks have disadvantage against you. That means an effective 3 to 5 boost in AC, depending on the Target Number your enemy has to rol (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/q/14690/22566)l. The math is in that extended discussion at the link. For those with a short attention span, "AC boost by 3-5" should suffice.

Disadvantage really reduces the chances that attacks on you do a crit. From 1 in 20 to 1 in 400 when the attacker has disadvantage. Nice, at any armor class. PC get a lot of attacks directed at them.

Here's another idea:
Monk with 20 dex and 20 wis.
Cloak of Displacement
+2 bracers
+1 RoP
23 AC, but it's effectively 26-28. And Monk does a lot of "you can't hit me"
read a book for dex? one more AC. Read one for wis? One more AC. But that assumes the higher level play and access to specific magic items.