Evil Paladin help

[Gydian]

Ive never played Paladin before so in my research I had the idea of using the Sith Code as the paladin oaths. So I'm thinking of a Hexblade/Paladin multi.
Questions:
For a level 5 build whats the split?
For a level 8 build whats the split?
What Paladin oath should I take?
Any suggestions or pointers on playing an evil Paladin?

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3b429494c2ff4eb528374b6687af0750-c

[ToastyTobasco]

Ive never played Paladin before so in my research I had the idea of using the Sith Code as the paladin oaths. So I'm thinking of a Hexblade/Paladin multi.
Questions:
For a level 5 build whats the split?
For a level 8 build whats the split?
What Paladin oath should I take?
Any suggestions or pointers on playing an evil Paladin?

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3b429494c2ff4eb528374b6687af0750-c

Conquest suites this very well and avoids many issues of oaths/alignment. You would only need one hexblade level as Conquest focuses on CHA more than maybe any other paladin oath. The only issue is *when* to take the hexblade level.

As for playing, just dont go chaotic stupid. You dont have to murder orphans and burn puppies. Lead the charge, crush your enemies, take no prisoners. Or do and if they dont bend to your will, break them. My favorite line for my characters with a cruel streak "You wont survive me when I'm angry."

[JackPhoenix]

Where are the tenets? I don't see any oath, I see "I do whatever I want to get on the top of the heap".

[thoroughlyS]

For a level 5 build whats the split?
Conquest Paladin 5 OR Hexblade 5
Extra Attack is too nice of a capstone to miss out on.

If you don't care about that:
Paladin 2/Hexblade 3
Get Divine Smite, and then the slots to power it.

For a level 8 build whats the split?
Hexblade 1/Conquest Paladin 5/ Hexblade +2

[djreynolds]

13 strength, hexblade with pact of the weapon.

3 levels of hex blade at least. You can live with scale male and a 14 dex, A.C. 16.

Or begin paladin, 13 in strength and you can wear chainmail. 16AC.

You only need a 15 strength for plate armor

[CTurbo]

Skip Hexblade completely. Not every Paladin build these days has to have a Hexblade dip. Paladin is already probably the strongest class in the book.


I played a Lawful Evil Halfling Vengeance Paladin and it was an odd but great character. This was a totally random character from the stats, to race, class, feat, and even alignment, but it was a great character. I don't remember exactly what all the stats were, but he had a 20 Dex, 16 Int and only a 13 Cha. I played him like a smart scheming character who usually did not commit any obvious evil acts in front of anybody that would live to tell about it. He managed to keep his evilness from his party for the entire duration of the campaign while also pulling off some pretty bad stuff at times like robbing, kidnapping, and framing a guard for stealing something from the King which of course he stole and sold. His motivation was to gain enough wealth and power to be able to bring down the town government that did nothing to prevent a large group of Bandits from massacring the majority of his village as well as seeking revenge on the actual Bandits. His random feat was Magic Initiate and took Firebolt, Mage Hand, and Find Familiar which with a VERY lucky roll, I was allowed to have an Imp. (I had to roll a d100 and on a 99 or 100 I could choose ANY familiar I wanted and I rolled a 99). He rocked a Scimitar of Speed, Boots of Speed, Ring of Protection and +1 Half Plate.

[Vexacia]

there's a very good guide on this forum to a paladin build that you might enjoy and that definitely suits the "evil" archetype if you want it to.

"The Wall of Fear", by Legimus.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?543427-The-Wall-of-Fear-A-Complete-Guide-to-the-Oath-of-Conquest

there's details on a Hexblade dip towards the bottom of the guide - TL;DR dip 1 at any point you're comfortable after you get your Extremely Important Subclass Feature (Aura of Conquest). but you should really give it a look over because it's got a very interesting and different style of playing paladin than a "standard" paladin.


13 strength, hexblade with pact of the weapon.

3 levels of hex blade at least. You can live with scale male and a 14 dex, A.C. 16.

Or begin paladin, 13 in strength and you can wear chainmail. 16AC.

You only need a 15 strength for plate armor
this is a mess

beeline extra attack whatever split you do. if it's warlock -> paladin do hexblade 5 first, if it's paladin -> warlock do paladin 6-7 first (6-7 depending on subclass).

[Guy Lombard-O]

I'll offer you a counter-approach (maybe a stupid one, but it's what I'm currently doing) to the 5 & 8 splits.

I took my 2 level hexblade dip at levels 2 & 3. I wanted to get the agonizing eldritch blast and SAD hexblade hex warrior feature right away, after locking in paladin 1. I might ideally delay Hex 2 until after Paladin 7, except that for roleplay reasons I wanted to only dip into warlock one time and be done (asking your god for forgiveness once is unpleasant, but twice just seems passive aggressive).

Yes, you're going to sort of hate the delay of paladin 5, 6 & 7. But there are some benefits to the hex level dip early. If you actually have to PLAY those levels, you're a fully functional character at 3rd. If you're dumping Str & Dex with this build (by which I mean 10 Dex/15 Str or 14 Dex/13 Str for some sort of decent AC), you'll want that Cha attack stat feature sooner rather than later. Having a +2 to hit and damage is pretty sad stuff.

This build will play a little different at character levels 5 and maybe 6 - until you get your extra attack. I found that I fell back on full-warlock mode (spamming 2 agonizing blasts with hex) at these levels, and staying out of melee. It just worked better for those levels where my eldritch blast was 2 attacks, but my melee was still 1 attack. The only time I'd move up and melee attack is when somebody landed a Hold Person and I could crit-smite. The short-rest spell slot recoveries are pretty nice, as well.

Ideally, I'd go P1/H1/P2-7/H2 for the first nine levels (except for role play issues).

[Gydian]

Thanks for the link to the guide. great reference.

[jdolch]

Skip Hexblade completely. Not every Paladin build these days has to have a Hexblade dip. Paladin is already probably the strongest class in the book.

On one hand I agree. On the other hand:

Whether or not you think there are already enough of them doesn't really have any bearing on the viability. In fact there are so many of them because it's almost a no brainer. And as long as that is so it has to be one of the first OPTIONS mentioned in any of these threads. Of course you can add that you personally think that this is cheese but just because YOU have seen to many of them for YOUR taste, doesn't make it a bad option.

I for example only play at my table, not your table and not everyone's table. And i have never actually seen a Hexblade dip played. So, i imagine it is with most other actual players. Of course i understand why theorycrafters hate that some options are just clearly better than others and as such limit their theorycrafting. But imo that has almost no bearing on the actual player asking for advice and it would be negligent to not mention these options just because you have (understandably) had about enough of this discussion.

[Misterwhisper]

There is actually a "Sith" warlock patron out there.

I know almost nothing about star wars but as far as mechanically, it worked fine.
It also had a Jedi monk subclass companion with it.

Not official or anything.

[TheMoxiousOne]

I myself have a pure Paladin, level 15, who I've based a lot on the sith in my roleplaying style, and I've been thoroughly enjoying her be useful in just about every situation. Need something smote? She's got this. Trying to avoid a fight? She'll fear them. Immune to fear? Try persuasion, if she can recover, or start the fight right with a maxed smite. Win, win and win. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Forgot to mention she swore an oath of conquest.

[Misterwhisper]

I myself have a pure Paladin, level 15, who I've based a lot on the sith in my roleplaying style, and I've been thoroughly enjoying her be useful in just about every situation. Need something smote? She's got this. Trying to avoid a fight? She'll fear them. Immune to fear? Try persuasion, if she can recover, or start the fight right with a maxed smite. Win, win and win. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Forgot to mention she swore an oath of conquest.

I really like oath of conquest, I played mine more along the lines of Ender Wiggin than Sith.

[Sception]

Oath of Conquest is great, but its flavor is much more on the lawful end, something its mechanics complement well, where the Sith code is very much on the chaotic side. The EU sith order and code, especially from Bane on, is very much about personal freedom, breaking the chains on your impulses and desires, whether they are imposed from within or without, and then tapping into your own unleashed emotions for strength. Lawful evil thematically, and conquest paladins mechanically, are less about freeing yourself from your chains and more about imposing chains on others.

Granted, those things aren't exactly mutually exclusive. Film sith (and sith adjacent) characters certainly do both. A strong case can be made for Darth Vader being a very chaotic evil character within a very lawful evil organization, and I don't think you could reasonably argue anything else for Kylo Ren.

But the sith code doesn't really include any of that, and is actually a dramatically better fit for just a plain old pure hexblade than it is for any published paladin class. But if you count unpublished classes, it happens to be a perfect fit for the paladin of treachery, whose fluff and mechanics do in large part revolve around breaking free from any internal or external restraints on their behavior. Treachery paladin is honestly a tad bit overtuned, and a bit more complicated than maybe it should be, particularly in the non-passive, limited use aura. But if you want to realize EU style sith as a paladin oath, I think you'd get a much better result by starting there and tweaking the mechanics into line with published classes.

[Man_Over_Game]

Skip Hexblade completely. Not every Paladin build these days has to have a Hexblade dip. Paladin is already probably the strongest class in the book.


I played a Lawful Evil Halfling Vengeance Paladin and it was an odd but great character. This was a totally random character from the stats, to race, class, feat, and even alignment, but it was a great character. I don't remember exactly what all the stats were, but he had a 20 Dex, 16 Int and only a 13 Cha. I played him like a smart scheming character who usually did not commit any obvious evil acts in front of anybody that would live to tell about it. He managed to keep his evilness from his party for the entire duration of the campaign while also pulling off some pretty bad stuff at times like robbing, kidnapping, and framing a guard for stealing something from the King which of course he stole and sold. His motivation was to gain enough wealth and power to be able to bring down the town government that did nothing to prevent a large group of Bandits from massacring the majority of his village as well as seeking revenge on the actual Bandits. His random feat was Magic Initiate and took Firebolt, Mage Hand, and Find Familiar which with a VERY lucky roll, I was allowed to have an Imp. (I had to roll a d100 and on a 99 or 100 I could choose ANY familiar I wanted and I rolled a 99). He rocked a Scimitar of Speed, Boots of Speed, Ring of Protection and +1 Half Plate.

Your advice has some merit, but keep in mind that Vengeance Paladin is, above any other Paladin, the one subclass that uses their spellcasting modifier the least. Having a Charisma of 10 doesn't hurt your build at all, who mostly just has to use a weapon and Hunter's Mark.

This is pretty different to the Conquest Paladin, who often prefers Charisma over their attacking stat. With a Hexblade level, the same Conquest Paladin no longer has to choose between the two stats.

[TheMoxiousOne]

...This is pretty different to the Conquest Paladin, who often prefers Charisma over their attacking stat. With a Hexblade level, the same Conquest Paladin no longer has to choose between the two stats.

Too true. This is the best thing to consider for multiclass next to, in my opinion, Sorc for the Subtle and Quickened metas

[PastorofMuppets]

As for playing, just dont go chaotic stupid. You dont have to murder orphans and burn puppies. Lead the charge, crush your enemies, take no prisoners. Or do and if they dont bend to your will, break them. My favorite line for my characters with a cruel streak "You wont survive me when I'm angry."

Killing orphans always struck me as wasteful for an evil character. You want to provide for them, build a school orphanage combo and teach them from a young age your way of the world so that in about 20 or so years you have a highly dedicated core group of loyal followers to form the heart of your uprising to take the kingdom for yourself.

If you can encourage more wars in the meantime even better, that makes more orphans so there are even more Future zealots at your side. It works best if you play a race with a really long lifespan, dwarf or elf, since that kind of patience makes more sense for them than it does for say an orc or human.