MadBear
2018-12-05, 01:00 AM
Ok let's get the obvious out of the way first:
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/540/658/5e8.jpg
So the idea of how to "fix" twf keeps coming up, and the community is divided. There are some who think it's fine as is, some who think it's mostly fine, and some who think it's a train wreck.
The Problem:
For me, the biggest problem with twf is that the mechanics don't match the theme. The whole idea of twf is that it's death by a thousand cuts, and currently getting to make a single extra attack especially later when extra attack is a thing doesn't match the theme. I've heard the idea pitched to just add the off-hand weapons dice to your main attack roll, but then it feels the same as using a 2-handed weapon.
Another part of the problem I originally thought was that the feat Dual Wielder was off. I actually don't think that's the real problem. The real problem is the fighting style. By allowing a player to add their stat to damage, you add a real limiting factor. Because too many attacks and the feat will be broken, because that extra +5 damage can really add up (especially if twf gave you more then 1 attack).
Another part of the problem is making it useful to all classes, while making the style synergies with classes that get styles.
The Fix
Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to make attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand for each attack you've made this turn. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative. If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.
TWF Style
Two-weapon fighting no longer requires a bonus action to use.
So how does this look?
Well a level 1 fighter can make 2 attacks using the twf style, a level 5 fighter can make 4 attacks, a level 12 fighter can make 6 attacks, and a level 20 fighter can make 8 attacks. Half of those attacks will add the stat modifier like normal, but the other half will only ever add the weapons damage.
the change in style allows the ranger to use twf while still casting hunters mark, and a barbarian who dips fighter can now rage and twf in the same turn. The idea here is that twf allows you to roll way more dice, but to make it feel unique in that it never adds a ton more damage. Because the idea of twf is it's a bunch of small wounds adding up.
The nice part is a level 12 fighter with a great sword and feat will swing twice doing potentially 4d6+stat mod (twice) + 20 (if using the feat), while a level 12 twf will be able to make 6 attacks doing 6d8+stat mod + 1 AC. Assuming everything hits the greatsword wielder is doing 44 damage, while the twf is only doing 32 by comparison. So even in this scenario the twf will likely do less damage, but their to-hit will be higher. If the greatsword fighter isn't doing the +10 damage, then the twf is likely doing more damage then them.
Potential Class uses:
Thief: Not much actually changes for them. If they pick up a class for the style, it free's up their bonus action, but the damage will remain roughly equivalent.
Barbarian: With the barbarian bonus damage, twf is a bit competitive with using a great weapon. It's still eat up their bonus action unless they multiclass, but if they do, it'll be really useful, as now they can make 4 attacks at level 5 that are each adding the barbarians bonus damage. It still won't likely outcompete a barbarian with GWM, but it'll close the gap a bit.
Cleric: A war cleric could potentially make use out of this, but considering it requires 2 weapons, it's likely not that good for them.
Fighter: The twf works really well at letting a high level fighter roll a boatload of dice. Not much different at low levels, but at higher levels makes it competitive with GWM
Ranger: The style stops punishing rangers who want to go with the classic twf look. The whirlwind ability also get's a significant powerup, which in my opinion is needed to be competitive with the ranged level 10 ability.
Paladin: Dipping another class to get the style, and having this available for all the smites could be interesting if not a bit of a complete I blow my entire load in a single turn player.
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/540/658/5e8.jpg
So the idea of how to "fix" twf keeps coming up, and the community is divided. There are some who think it's fine as is, some who think it's mostly fine, and some who think it's a train wreck.
The Problem:
For me, the biggest problem with twf is that the mechanics don't match the theme. The whole idea of twf is that it's death by a thousand cuts, and currently getting to make a single extra attack especially later when extra attack is a thing doesn't match the theme. I've heard the idea pitched to just add the off-hand weapons dice to your main attack roll, but then it feels the same as using a 2-handed weapon.
Another part of the problem I originally thought was that the feat Dual Wielder was off. I actually don't think that's the real problem. The real problem is the fighting style. By allowing a player to add their stat to damage, you add a real limiting factor. Because too many attacks and the feat will be broken, because that extra +5 damage can really add up (especially if twf gave you more then 1 attack).
Another part of the problem is making it useful to all classes, while making the style synergies with classes that get styles.
The Fix
Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to make attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand for each attack you've made this turn. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative. If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.
TWF Style
Two-weapon fighting no longer requires a bonus action to use.
So how does this look?
Well a level 1 fighter can make 2 attacks using the twf style, a level 5 fighter can make 4 attacks, a level 12 fighter can make 6 attacks, and a level 20 fighter can make 8 attacks. Half of those attacks will add the stat modifier like normal, but the other half will only ever add the weapons damage.
the change in style allows the ranger to use twf while still casting hunters mark, and a barbarian who dips fighter can now rage and twf in the same turn. The idea here is that twf allows you to roll way more dice, but to make it feel unique in that it never adds a ton more damage. Because the idea of twf is it's a bunch of small wounds adding up.
The nice part is a level 12 fighter with a great sword and feat will swing twice doing potentially 4d6+stat mod (twice) + 20 (if using the feat), while a level 12 twf will be able to make 6 attacks doing 6d8+stat mod + 1 AC. Assuming everything hits the greatsword wielder is doing 44 damage, while the twf is only doing 32 by comparison. So even in this scenario the twf will likely do less damage, but their to-hit will be higher. If the greatsword fighter isn't doing the +10 damage, then the twf is likely doing more damage then them.
Potential Class uses:
Thief: Not much actually changes for them. If they pick up a class for the style, it free's up their bonus action, but the damage will remain roughly equivalent.
Barbarian: With the barbarian bonus damage, twf is a bit competitive with using a great weapon. It's still eat up their bonus action unless they multiclass, but if they do, it'll be really useful, as now they can make 4 attacks at level 5 that are each adding the barbarians bonus damage. It still won't likely outcompete a barbarian with GWM, but it'll close the gap a bit.
Cleric: A war cleric could potentially make use out of this, but considering it requires 2 weapons, it's likely not that good for them.
Fighter: The twf works really well at letting a high level fighter roll a boatload of dice. Not much different at low levels, but at higher levels makes it competitive with GWM
Ranger: The style stops punishing rangers who want to go with the classic twf look. The whirlwind ability also get's a significant powerup, which in my opinion is needed to be competitive with the ranged level 10 ability.
Paladin: Dipping another class to get the style, and having this available for all the smites could be interesting if not a bit of a complete I blow my entire load in a single turn player.