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Aetis
2018-12-05, 02:59 AM
There are beings in D&D that is able to teleport at will. Some of them are surprisingly low-level, like lantern archons.

This has many world-wide implications, and one of them is market for items.

For one, this brings item vendors in the world in direct competition against one another. Merchants probably can't overcharge their prices at all. Overland transportation of goods is completely out of question and unviable, as teleporting goods is much safer and faster.

What other implications can be deduced? Also, do you do anything as a DM to work around this? One of the fantasy staples is "group of adventurers start out as guards on a trading caravan", after all.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-12-05, 03:16 AM
Play an RPG that makes sense instead.

Kaptin Keen
2018-12-05, 03:22 AM
There are beings in D&D that is able to teleport at will. Some of them are surprisingly low-level, like lantern archons.

This has many world-wide implications, and one of them is market for items.

For one, this brings item vendors in the world in direct competition against one another. Merchants probably can't overcharge their prices at all. Overland transportation of goods is completely out of question and unviable, as teleporting goods is much safer and faster.

What other implications can be deduced? Also, do you do anything as a DM to work around this? One of the fantasy staples is "group of adventurers start out as guards on a trading caravan", after all.

This is only true if you make a bunch of assumptions. The main one being the availability of archons. With nothing better to do. You need to assume a lantern archon is interested in gold - for what, nice shoes?? Then you also need to assume the archon isn't that interested in gold, because you still need the teleportation to be cheap.

But sure, assuming all these things, teleportations of up to 50 pounds are possible. Is teleport by archon then cheaper than transport by camel? Who knows.

Kami2awa
2018-12-05, 03:32 AM
Well, it's now sometimes cheaper IRL to fly goods halfway round the world than to produce them at home. Transport has got quick enough that it might as well be teleportation.

Has this stopped overcharging? Hell no. It's reduced the cost of some things but definitely not everything.

Kaptin Keen
2018-12-05, 03:49 AM
It's reduced the cost of some things .

I'm not convinced it's reduced the price of anything. I think the prices have remained largely the same, but profits have soared.

That's a real world thing, but it applies entirely to the teleportation thing too: If pot helmets cost 2 gp, you're not going to sell them more than marginally cheaper because you have instant transportation. You're just going to earn more on each you sell.

khadgar567
2018-12-05, 05:12 AM
well, the point you get constant teleport good in camping you hit the tipptyverse. As hard as you try to control the trade there is gonna always easy reach to final product from the mine were you get raw iron to nations capital where you sell the final products. It's gonna be safe and secure but it will crash economy due key resources are not robbed by bandits. which makes harder to adventurers to get real experience on valuable combat. then there is the army issue since jack the commoner can reach any product via teleportation network. how hard you think Napoleon the general thinks. he wants his forces easily supplied and always where they need that means he can conquer for his heart's content due the whole cost of supply management gone to wind due to supplies he needs are one teleport away in the capital. so wars can be more bloody since front lines can be reinforced any time with new recruits. but the bigger problem you need mage infiltrators more and more as keynotes of teleportation need stop be re-routed or captured to keep the fight going or end it early.

noob
2018-12-05, 05:17 AM
This is only true if you make a bunch of assumptions. The main one being the availability of archons. With nothing better to do. You need to assume a lantern archon is interested in gold - for what, nice shoes?? Then you also need to assume the archon isn't that interested in gold, because you still need the teleportation to be cheap.

But sure, assuming all these things, teleportations of up to 50 pounds are possible. Is teleport by archon then cheaper than transport by camel? Who knows.
Lantern archons are approximately as aviable as level 5 prepared casters.
So not very aviable.

Knaight
2018-12-05, 06:21 AM
An extremely analogous situation for this is digital downloads. Location doesn't matter, and yet the same thing still has different prices from different distributors pretty much the moment there's more than one of them. Economic simplifications based on the assumption of perfect information have real flaws even in the contexts of small markets which can reasonably be understood fully. A global market, linked by teleportation? There's no way you don't get price variability there, from information gaps alone.

This assumes free teleportation. Take that away, and there's a local advantage, and also a bunch of highly variable prices for teleportation itself in all likelihood. Welcome to price variability, and also probably a point where conventional transport is cheaper (at the very least it's probably easier to deliver something a few minutes walk away than to teleport).

Kaptin Keen
2018-12-05, 09:02 AM
Lantern archons are approximately as aviable as level 5 prepared casters.
So not very aviable.

I'd say that availability is across the multiverse. Personally I'd say there are hardly any at all on the prime.

Anymage
2018-12-05, 09:34 AM
Lantern archons require Summon Monster IV, which is a fourth level spell. That's a minimum of 280gp for each one you use to ferry goods. Even if you can bargain the caster down some, that quickly becomes cost prohibitive for large shipments. (Planar Ally/Planar Binding can be used for longer term service, but both of these have their own issues when used to provide mass transit.)

As mentioned before, the Tippyverse got its start as a thought experiment as to what a Permanencied Teleportation Circle would do to the world. Higher startup costs, but better throughput, the ability to transport living beings, and the fact that maintenance costs are nothing more than what it would usually cost to guard any spot of interest. Two or more areas so linked would indeed share markets, as well as culture and other elements. The results get far weirder than just pricing issues.

noob
2018-12-05, 09:50 AM
Lantern archons require Summon Monster IV, which is a fourth level spell. That's a minimum of 280gp for each one you use to ferry goods. Even if you can bargain the caster down some, that quickly becomes cost prohibitive for large shipments. (Planar Ally/Planar Binding can be used for longer term service, but both of these have their own issues when used to provide mass transit.)

As mentioned before, the Tippyverse got its start as a thought experiment as to what a Permanencied Teleportation Circle would do to the world. Higher startup costs, but better throughput, the ability to transport living beings, and the fact that maintenance costs are nothing more than what it would usually cost to guard any spot of interest. Two or more areas so linked would indeed share markets, as well as culture and other elements. The results get far weirder than just pricing issues.
create lantern archon is level 3 so in fact you can create new lantern archons with prepared spell caster of level 5(spontaneous spell casters on the other hand needs a prc or being a cleric)

Kaptin Keen
2018-12-05, 10:20 AM
create lantern archon is level 3 so in fact you can create new lantern archons with prepared spell caster of level 5(spontaneous spell casters on the other hand needs a prc or being a cleric)

So .... a level 3 spell gets you limitless free level 5 spells? I straight rule that such a spell doesn't exist, and anyone who thinks differently is plainly, clearly, obviously and irrevocably wrong.

=)

There. Glad we got that solves =D

Nifft
2018-12-05, 10:24 AM
Lantern Archons provide swift and reliable courier service on planes of Lawful Goodness.

Markets are fair and goods travel to meet needs equitably, without disruption and without barrier.

Also there are public sanitation projects, mass transit is available, and the state cares for each citizen's wellbeing.


This is nothing like where the PCs live, of course.

Zombimode
2018-12-05, 10:25 AM
Well, I'm away from books, but iirc it is a Sanctified spell that drains you for 1-2 points of Con and sends the newly created Lantern Archon to your deity's home plane.

Anymage
2018-12-05, 11:38 AM
create lantern archon is level 3 so in fact you can create new lantern archons with prepared spell caster of level 5(spontaneous spell casters on the other hand needs a prc or being a cleric)

As mentioned, it's a Sanctified spell that causes Con drain. You'll either need a way around that, or you'll need regular Restoration spells. Since Restoration, Lesser Planar Ally, and Summon Monster IV are all fourth level spells, that's as good a target as any. Unless you want to posit that good aligned undead spellcasters are common enough to use for industrial purposes.

You also skip the main point I was making. If you want to posit industrial magic on that scale, why not just go full Tippy?

LibraryOgre
2018-12-05, 01:58 PM
This is only true if you make a bunch of assumptions. The main one being the availability of archons. With nothing better to do. You need to assume a lantern archon is interested in gold - for what, nice shoes?? Then you also need to assume the archon isn't that interested in gold, because you still need the teleportation to be cheap.

But sure, assuming all these things, teleportations of up to 50 pounds are possible. Is teleport by archon then cheaper than transport by camel? Who knows.

It's worth considering. A Lantern Archon is available for 7th level Wizards and Clerics, which means hiring one to transport 50# of material anywhere on a plane is only about 280gp (in 3.x terms). How much to hire a courier to get there, and how long will it take?

As others have said, though, D&D can be a very silly place.

noob
2018-12-05, 02:14 PM
So .... a level 3 spell gets you limitless free level 5 spells? I straight rule that such a spell doesn't exist, and anyone who thinks differently is plainly, clearly, obviously and irrevocably wrong.

=)

There. Glad we got that solves =D

The difference with the level 5 spell is that the level 5 spell can get to teleport all your allies in one turn while being in a dangerous zone.
the lantern archon does not wants to take any danger unless you pay it a whole lot so it can not be used for fleeing like the teleport spell can.
And the lantern archon is limited to itself and 25kg of equipement while teleport potentially allows to teleport around black holes provided you have the str to lift them and can allows to teleport multiple allies without them getting into a bag of holding.
Also the lantern archon is way easier to kill than a wizard able to cast teleport.
So personally even if I have create lantern archon I would still pick teleport too.

PairO'Dice Lost
2018-12-05, 03:03 PM
For one, this brings item vendors in the world in direct competition against one another. Merchants probably can't overcharge their prices at all. Overland transportation of goods is completely out of question and unviable, as teleporting goods is much safer and faster.


That's a real world thing, but it applies entirely to the teleportation thing too: If pot helmets cost 2 gp, you're not going to sell them more than marginally cheaper because you have instant transportation. You're just going to earn more on each you sell.

And this is why a given magic item costs basically the same amount of gold in Waterdeep, Sharn, Sigil, Greyhawk, and everywhere else you can think of. The Magic Item Compendium is obviously an in-game catalog for WALMART Co. (the Wizardry, Artifice, Logistics, Magic, And Retail Teleportation Company). :smallamused:

Son of A Lich!
2018-12-05, 04:13 PM
In my campaign setting, there are 9 Dwarven Kingdoms that are all cloistered and paranoid of the outside world. They use teleportation circles to transport goods to one another.

This creates pretty big issues for them.

First of all, I was using it as justification for "Planet of Hats", because Objibril was the campaign setting I made as a kid and just kept adding too. These dwarves are militant, those dwarves are drunkards, these Dwarves are tradesmen of fine goods.

When you have these cloistered kingdoms, that all depend on each other, trade becomes worse then warfare itself. If the Ironspine clan, who live in a mountain with rich iron and copper and tin, decide that they want more for their work? They up the prices on their resources and find that Grains and Beer and linens get upped in price in response. Suddenly, They HAVE to up their prices further, just to stay alive because they don't have the means of producing things they need from the outside world. The Ironspine Mountain range doesn't have the lush farmland of the Kiegler's peaks.

Second problem is that these teleportation circles make them prime targets for literally everyone. If an Gnoll Warlord wants to march on the shores of Alsurin, he could either A) Invest in a navy and lose about 10% of his troops in transportation across the Gallen Ocean, or B) raid the Kiegler's Peak range, find a teleportation circle to Dulridge and march south from there. This has happened numerous times in the past, and is a part of the reason why each of the dwarven kingdoms have shock troops and one kingdom is almost a military dictatorship. When a farming community is taken, the dwarves have to mobilize their troops to secure their circles again... but they don't have enough people to protect every circle necessary for their continued survival against an invading force. This is especially true of underdark citizens and Vampires that are vulnerable to sunlight, as it is often the only way from A to B in the dark (It's also a pretty good bargaining chip for allies mounting warfare against mutual enemies; The Triune Empire may ask the dwarves for assistance to mount assaults via the dwarves Teleportation circles for example).

The third problem is what happened when the Kiegler Peak became the Kiegler Peaks. The Blue Dragon of the world literally cracked the Peak into two and enslaved the population of dwarves to farm land for the Laconian Empire. While the empire broke the circles on the end of the Peaks, the other dwarven Kingdoms did the same on their end. Why risk the chance of being invaded by enemy forces? This, with their psuedo-trade war, forced the dwarven kingdoms to trade outside and made them bow to the trade laws of the outside world. They no longer had a monopoly on adamanite or mithril, because they would starve if they didn't sell their goods to the outside kingdoms. The Kiegler Peak dwarves were enslaved for nearly 300 years until a revolt became a revolution and they took their home land back. Since then, Kiegler's peaks has become very closed off to trade within the kingdoms, and outside.

Just some food for thought.

geppetto
2018-12-05, 04:17 PM
This isnt really a reasonable option. According to google a covered wagon like a merchant would carry goods in could carry 2000 lbs of goods fairly easily. And most merchants would have more then 1 wagon in a train.

So thats 40 trips for the archon to replace each wagon. Thats going to get pretty pricey in a hurry. Most goods arent worth it. You wouldnt use something like this for any commodity but precious metals and gemstones and equally valuable goods. Or maybe goods that were travelling extremely far, which most goods dont.

Considering that theres no foreign exchange rate for precious goods or coins assumed anywhere I think the system as already taken this possibility into account reasonably well.

Mastikator
2018-12-05, 04:33 PM
This isnt really a reasonable option. According to google a covered wagon like a merchant would carry goods in could carry 2000 lbs of goods fairly easily. And most merchants would have more then 1 wagon in a train.

So thats 40 trips for the archon to replace each wagon. Thats going to get pretty pricey in a hurry. Most goods arent worth it. You wouldnt use something like this for any commodity but precious metals and gemstones and equally valuable goods. Or maybe goods that were travelling extremely far, which most goods dont.

Considering that theres no foreign exchange rate for precious goods or coins assumed anywhere I think the system as already taken this possibility into account reasonably well.

1 trip every 2 turns (there and back again), 40*2*6/60 = 8, 8 minutes. In 8 minutes one lantern archon can cover as much 1 wagon. And it can go anywhere, wagons are limited by speed.
In 8 hours one lantern can replace 60 wagons.

Yeah I agree with Koo, play a game that makes sense.

Erloas
2018-12-05, 04:34 PM
If spending 280gp to move 50lbs worth of material depends on a lot of other variables. Are you moving it a few miles, a few hundred, or a few thousand? Is what you're moving valuable enough to be worth that cost to move?

280gp for 50lbs would probably be a great deal if that is several +5 weapons. It is stupid what you have to move is 50 tons of iron ore or wheat.
Also is it going to make any difference if the thing gets there in a minute or 2 months? Ore won't make any difference, the right items in an area being blockaded could very well be well worth it. Something that might perish or no longer be of any value after a long trip? Or maybe it is caskets of wine or whiskey where the extra time actually makes it more valuable rather than less.

Knaight
2018-12-05, 04:42 PM
Also there are public sanitation projects, mass transit is available, and the state cares for each citizen's wellbeing.


This is nothing like where the PCs live, of course.
Bolding mine.

It's nothing like where the players live either a lot of the time, from the looks of things (and the presence or absence of bolding on the third clause in that sentence should be read as deliberate ambiguity that fits with the forum rules more than taking a distinct stance that it shouldn't be bolded).

Aetis
2018-12-05, 04:45 PM
Uh.... I think there is some merit in looking for a solution before abandoning the system, I hope?

Erloas
2018-12-05, 08:06 PM
The time the summon lasts is pretty short, I think you would spend a good chunk of that time explaining to the archon what you wanted done and where they need to go. Plus the overhead in time labor to get all your goods put into evenly distributed bags for them to pick up and drop off quickly.
It's still only going to be practical for high value items.

You have to consider the relatively low cost to hire a few general laborers, a cart, and a guard. Even a few week journey is going to cost a lot less than the spell is worth.

Darth Ultron
2018-12-05, 08:42 PM
Uh.... I think there is some merit in looking for a solution before abandoning the system, I hope?

Well, just talking about 3.5E:

1.A simple limit of one mile per HD or Level of spell or spell-like ability for teleport.


2.Make teleportation very dangerous, a bit more like every other teleport will likely end badly. So something like a 50% of mishap. Something like: 1-off target, 2-too low, 3-too high, 4-obliteration. Also add Astral monsters that target teleports.

3.Have any teleportation require: the person must study a location for at least one hour to even have any chance to teleport to that spot. And the spot must be a very static unchanging area that physically is exactly like the memory of the spot. Changing the spot physically, by moving a chair for example, makes the spot invalid to teleport.

All the above stop ''teleporting merchants" in their tracks....but still keeps teleport open for adventurers.

Kaptin Keen
2018-12-06, 03:04 AM
The difference with the level 5 spell is that the level 5 spell can get to teleport all your allies in one turn while being in a dangerous zone.
the lantern archon does not wants to take any danger unless you pay it a whole lot so it can not be used for fleeing like the teleport spell can.
And the lantern archon is limited to itself and 25kg of equipement while teleport potentially allows to teleport around black holes provided you have the str to lift them and can allows to teleport multiple allies without them getting into a bag of holding.
Also the lantern archon is way easier to kill than a wizard able to cast teleport.
So personally even if I have create lantern archon I would still pick teleport too.


It's worth considering. A Lantern Archon is available for 7th level Wizards and Clerics, which means hiring one to transport 50# of material anywhere on a plane is only about 280gp (in 3.x terms). How much to hire a courier to get there, and how long will it take?

As others have said, though, D&D can be a very silly place.

It's worth noting that I play mostly E6, and that I mostly disallow the majority of official sources in my games. Precisely because of this type of thing. Also because most authors in RPG publishers are awful at their jobs =)

What I'm trying to say is - discount most things I say, I'm coming from a very different place than most who post here =)

Kami2awa
2018-12-06, 03:50 AM
Create Lantern Archon requires 1d2 points of Con drain (the Sacrifice component), for 1 hour of service. Fluff-wise, it drains part of your "life force" to create the Archon. It takes a 4th-level spell to fix this (Restoration).

It's also only available to Good-aligned characters. Plus it's from Champions of Valor, a Forgotten Realms book, so it might not exist in other campaign worlds.

The Archon is not under your control, but "friendly". However, would a Lantern Archon (a minor angel-like creature) be happy being used as a servant for mere profit? I'd imagine after a few rounds it's going to be quoting Matthew 21:12 a lot ;)

In theory, however, in one hour, a lantern archon can teleport 15,000 lbs of stuff. (600 rounds/hr, 50 lbs/round, halved because it has to go there and back again). It could double that if it is exchanging equal weights of goods (i.e. teleport with 50lbs of grain, teleport back with 50lbs of flour, repeat). 15,000 lbs = 6.7 Imperial tons. Pretty good for, say, famine relief.

Erloas
2018-12-06, 04:29 AM
But unless I'm missing something summon monster is rounds/level. That's a lot of casting or metamagic to get hours of time.

Also a simple reading of the spell

A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities.

Pauly
2018-12-06, 05:20 AM
Magic and economics do not mix. Accept the hand wave and do not look atbthe man behind the curtain.

Kaptin Keen
2018-12-06, 06:18 AM
But unless I'm missing something summon monster is rounds/level. That's a lot of casting or metamagic to get hours of time.

Also a simple reading of the spell

That would be a remarkably reasonable limitation - but apparently, this spell doesn't summon, but rather just randomly creates intelligent outsiders. Which is a good example of why I do not allow the vast majority of officially published materials.

Tvtyrant
2018-12-06, 06:35 AM
That would be a remarkably reasonable limitation - but apparently, this spell doesn't summon, but rather just randomly creates intelligent outsiders. Which is a good example of why I do not allow the vast majority of officially published materials.

I don't think the spell in question is a big problem honestly. It takes a medium level extremely good wizard to cast and hurts them permanently each time they cast it. The world isn't going to have more then a few of those who both exist and want to spend their lives ferrying goods.

Compared to wall of X spells, decanters of endless water and the like it just isn't that abusive.

If you want a really broken one, any evil cleric can sack people for Greater Planar Binding castings or lesser Wish castings using the Book of Vile Darkness sacrifice rules. Very low level cults that gather up people to sacrifice in order to get free teleports for weeks at a time is actually a pretty good plot point.

Kaptin Keen
2018-12-06, 07:18 AM
I don't think the spell in question is a big problem honestly. It takes a medium level extremely good wizard to cast and hurts them permanently each time they cast it. The world isn't going to have more then a few of those who both exist and want to spend their lives ferrying goods.

Compared to wall of X spells, decanters of endless water and the like it just isn't that abusive.

If you want a really broken one, any evil cleric can sack people for Greater Planar Binding castings or lesser Wish castings using the Book of Vile Darkness sacrifice rules. Very low level cults that gather up people to sacrifice in order to get free teleports for weeks at a time is actually a pretty good plot point.

That there are worse examples doesn't make this one any better. It's a 3rd level spell - essentially petty magics - that creates intelligent life. With me as GM, it won't fly. At all. Neither will anything in BoVD - nor pretty much any other published material. I don't so care about the fact that archons can teleport. I care because it's stupid and unnecessary.

Max_Killjoy
2018-12-06, 11:33 AM
I don't think the spell in question is a big problem honestly. It takes a medium level extremely good wizard to cast and hurts them permanently each time they cast it. The world isn't going to have more then a few of those who both exist and want to spend their lives ferrying goods.

Compared to wall of X spells, decanters of endless water and the like it just isn't that abusive.

If you want a really broken one, any evil cleric can sack people for Greater Planar Binding castings or lesser Wish castings using the Book of Vile Darkness sacrifice rules. Very low level cults that gather up people to sacrifice in order to get free teleports for weeks at a time is actually a pretty good plot point.

Or the crapsack setting with a seemingly endless supply of people "who won't be missed", using them to fuel a teleportation network.

(OK, so that's sounding a bit too much like WH40K...)

Tvtyrant
2018-12-06, 11:52 AM
Or the crapsack setting with a seemingly endless supply of people "who won't be missed", using them to fuel a teleportation network.

(OK, so that's sounding a bit too much like WH40K...)

If there is one thing I can guarantee, it is that all of my settings are crap sacks ;)

Nifft
2018-12-06, 12:12 PM
Magic and economics do not mix. Accept the hand wave and do not look atbthe man behind the curtain.

"I really liked your idea about an invisible hand controlling the markets, so I made a spell to do exactly that." -- Bigby

Erloas
2018-12-07, 12:52 AM
So Summon Monster doesn't work because it explicitly states they can't teleport.

Planar Ally only works if you pay them, it is quite a bit too (500gp to cast the spell, and the "default" payment for 1 hour of work for a lantern archon is 1000gp, 500gp if you consider it non-hazardous).
So that is financially prohibitive for almost anything. You're looking at 1hr worth of moving, 5 trips per minute, so about 15,000lbs, assuming at least that you've already spent the time, effort, and money to get everything into easy to move 50lb packages. But at a minimum of 1000gp, well you've pretty much paid for a small towns worth of labor for a year. You could have a dozen guarded caravans for that price and they would move significantly more goods, just a lot slower. Not a *bad* option if you've got some very specific and high value things to move, but not practical for anything more mundane, ie what 99% of the actual population uses.

Planar Binding doesn't work because you've got two choices, either anchor them, in which case they can't teleport your goods for you, or don't anchor them and they simply give you the bird as they teleport away.

Or a setting specific spell that requires stat drain. I can't see what other limitations there are because I haven't found the spell in the SRD.

Nifft
2018-12-07, 12:57 AM
Planar Binding doesn't work because you've got two choices, either anchor them, in which case they can't teleport your goods for you, or don't anchor them and they simply give you the bird as they teleport away.

That's not how Planar Binding works.

You anchor them while they're within the circle, and only until they agree to serve you -- at which point you release them from the circle, and thereby release them from the anchor.

Aetis
2018-12-07, 02:01 AM
So that is financially prohibitive for almost anything. You're looking at 1hr worth of moving, 5 trips per minute, so about 15,000lbs, assuming at least that you've already spent the time, effort, and money to get everything into easy to move 50lb packages. But at a minimum of 1000gp, well you've pretty much paid for a small towns worth of labor for a year. You could have a dozen guarded caravans for that price and they would move significantly more goods, just a lot slower. Not a *bad* option if you've got some very specific and high value things to move, but not practical for anything more mundane, ie what 99% of the actual population uses.

Um... 15,000 lb is potentially a lot of money. If you're selling, say, mundane longswords, 15000lb of longswords is 56250g.

Aetis
2018-12-07, 02:15 AM
I can see it now. Your local level 7 cleric in the city uses Lesser Planar Binding to hire an archon every monday:

"Greetings, sir friend archon, we are in need of your teleportation services once more. I presume that the same payment as last week works for you? Here is your usual Belt of Ogre Strength +6. Please don't forget to return it after you finish your run! (I got into much trouble with the head priest when you forgot to return it last month.) We have some perishable goods in the route this time, so you might want to do those first. Good luck and godspeed!"

Erloas
2018-12-07, 04:14 AM
That's not how Planar Binding works.

You anchor them while they're within the circle, and only until they agree to serve you -- at which point you release them from the circle, and thereby release them from the anchor. If you're forcing them to do something before you release them you can probably do that without much cost. But in this case you've got to get them to be willing. So you've got to offer them something of value, and if planar ally is a baseline it's not going to be super cheap.


Um... 15,000 lb is potentially a lot of money. If you're selling, say, mundane longswords, 15000lb of longswords is 56250g.
Yeah, but where are you going to find that big of a supply of swords or that big of a market to sell them. Even in the biggest cities it's going to take years to sell that much.
But even if you mix all sorts of items most of your production will probably be close to you markets. What usually needs to move the most is natural resources, which is at the really low end of value to weight ratio.
But I think your best markets of finished goods would be many small areas rather than moving huge amounts of finished goods to one place.

Quertus
2018-12-07, 01:17 PM
So, tomorrow, or hundreds of years ago (because Teleport Through Time), the immortal Quertus shows up with an army of Teleport-capable Simulacra, all capable of defending themselves if necessary in "5d chess", and sells their services "at cost" (because Quertus is bad at business), amortized over their Divination-approved lifespan of, say, 1,000 years. So, functionally free transportation. Or, same effect, uses them to provide free transport for his own company. OK, so where does that get us?


1 trip every 2 turns (there and back again), 40*2*6/60 = 8, 8 minutes. In 8 minutes one lantern archon can cover as much 1 wagon. And it can go anywhere, wagons are limited by speed.
In 8 hours one lantern can replace 60 wagons.

It's a pity no-one seems to be using your math.

Nifft
2018-12-07, 01:20 PM
If you're forcing them to do something before you release them you can probably do that without much cost. But in this case you've got to get them to be willing. So you've got to offer them something of value, and if planar ally is a baseline it's not going to be super cheap.

Maybe this is version specific?

In the version I'm looking at, you just need to win a Charisma check (vs. the Lantern Archon's +0 Cha bonus). You can offer a bribe, but it's not required. There's no necessity to pay anything at all.

geppetto
2018-12-07, 01:25 PM
1 trip every 2 turns (there and back again), 40*2*6/60 = 8, 8 minutes. In 8 minutes one lantern archon can cover as much 1 wagon. And it can go anywhere, wagons are limited by speed.
In 8 hours one lantern can replace 60 wagons.

Yeah I agree with Koo, play a game that makes sense.

The games fine. 5th edition just sucks. I'm going from a PF perspective. System wasnt specified.

Aetis
2018-12-07, 01:38 PM
And what is the difference between PF and 5e?

Erloas
2018-12-07, 06:13 PM
Maybe this is version specific?

In the version I'm looking at, you just need to win a Charisma check (vs. the Lantern Archon's +0 Cha bonus). You can offer a bribe, but it's not required. There's no necessity to pay anything at all.
Well in the end it seems like it functions a lot like diplomacy, in that it is as strong or weak as a DM decides it should be. By the reading they can't break free of the circle but they can always try to escape. They aren't teleported back until they complete the task but nothing says that once they're free they can't teleport themselves away. It makes it very clear that they still have free will and don't just have to follow the intent of the request.
Then there is the blanket "Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to" in there. A being of good might say that putting dozens of citizens out of work simply to increase your profit margins is against it's very nature and won't do it. Even "teleport back and forth as fast as possible carrying as much as you possibly can for hours and hours" could be ruled "unreasonable."

I would say that a DM could stick to RAW and go in either direction because the spell has guidelines on various aspects of it but clearly leaves a lot, intentionally, up to the DM. And at very least some of the more powerful outsiders might take exception to you enslaving archon's repeatedly to run errands for you.

PhoenixPhyre
2018-12-08, 10:13 PM
And what is the difference between PF and 5e?

For one thing, lantern archons (or, to the best of my knowledge, any creature with at-will long range teleportation) don't exist in 5e. Or at least haven't been printed yet. And you certainly can't summon them easily--conjure celestials is, iirc, a higher level spell.

There also isn't permanency, so no permanent teleport circle.

On the flip side, my setting does have a set of permanent gates, Stargate style. Most are out of commission, but the few that get used are under the control of the International Adventurers Guild (which really is more of a police force). They rent out slots at exorbitant rates to merchants and nations, so they're used for high value, low bulk merchandise or things that need high speed.

Mutazoia
2018-12-09, 11:03 PM
Hell, why bother with teleportation? Find an alternate prime material plane that is void of life, and use it as a giant warehouse. Need to sell some stuff, open a gate to where you want to sell it, and ship the stuff. Hell, you could set up manufacturing AND warehousing and ship factory direct. Depending on which edition you want to use, you can create a pocket dimension yourself, rather than going hunting for one.

Bind a few Earth Elementals to roam the elemental plane of earth and bring back raw materials and you can cut your mining labor costs to zilch.

The main problem with this, or the at-will teleportation scheme, is the time/money factor. You would have to have mages who decided to get just high enough in level to be able to do said scheme, and then stop and go into the merchant business. (And I would hazard a guess that most people capable of learning said magics, have bigger plans in mind than becoming a glorified shop keeper.) Your scenario assumes the end game situation, where your mage is summoning Lantern Archons willy nilly and has the time and money to do so. You forget that, in the beginning, your hapless harker is going to have to spend way more money than is profitable to move goods (remember, he has to acquire the goods first...they're not free), so that he's going to be operating in the red for quite some time. Only someone with a sizable bank roll is going to be able to turn a quick profit, and anybody who has that much cash laying around, doesn't need to turn merchant. They will make more money as an adventurer than they could as a magical version of Amazon.

Aetis
2018-12-09, 11:45 PM
Presumably epic level characters are incredibly rare and not pertinent to our discussion.

Far as I can tell, nothing is stopping a merchant guild in a city from hiring a retired level 7 cleric to hire an archon to deliver goods to the surrounding towns every week.

Maybe WotC didn't want that to be the norm, and got rid of at-will teleportation creatures in 5e.

Mechalich
2018-12-09, 11:46 PM
Hell, why bother with teleportation? Find an alternate prime material plane that is void of life, and use it as a giant warehouse. Need to sell some stuff, open a gate to where you want to sell it, and ship the stuff. Hell, you could set up manufacturing AND warehousing and ship factory direct. Depending on which edition you want to use, you can create a pocket dimension yourself, rather than going hunting for one.

One of the characteristics of the D&D multiverse is that very few places are actually empty, not even the negative energy plane. If you stash a huge amount of valuable stuff somewhere, someone will find and steal it all unless you utilize sufficiently powerful protections (at which point economic issues have ceased to matter anyway).


Bind a few Earth Elementals to roam the elemental plane of earth and bring back raw materials and you can cut your mining labor costs to zilch.

Elementals are on record as absolutely hating anyone who tries this kind of thing. They want the raw material of their respective planes to remain exactly where it is. This is the sort of scheme that lands you in the Dao slave pens.

Quertus
2018-12-10, 12:31 AM
Elementals are on record as absolutely hating anyone who tries this kind of thing. They want the raw material of their respective planes to remain exactly where it is. This is the sort of scheme that lands you in the Dao slave pens.

Really? I thought they wanted their respective elements to be dominant on the Prime, and thus wanted them "shipped" there.

Kaptin Keen
2018-12-10, 01:31 AM
You would have to have mages who decided to get just high enough in level to be able to do said scheme, and then stop and go into the merchant business.

No, the real problem is that the mage in question wouldn't have any motivation to be anything but marginally cheaper, and that even if magic is convenient and all - it's actually more expensive than simple slavery. Well, provided you capture your slaves. Economy is less clear if you have to buy them.

Lacuna Caster
2018-12-10, 01:08 PM
And this is why a given magic item costs basically the same amount of gold in Waterdeep, Sharn, Sigil, Greyhawk, and everywhere else you can think of. The Magic Item Compendium is obviously an in-game catalog for WALMART Co. (the Wizardry, Artifice, Logistics, Magic, And Retail Teleportation Company). :smallamused:

"I really liked your idea about an invisible hand controlling the markets, so I made a spell to do exactly that." -- Bigby
I'm convinced that an official setting splatbook based on these ideas is long overdue and would be hilarious.

Goaty14
2018-12-10, 01:29 PM
WOW

53 Posts into the thread and nobody has suggested an alternate Tippyverse (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?222007-The-Definitive-Guide-to-the-Tippyverse-By-Emperor-Tippy) yet!
:mad:

Max_Killjoy
2018-12-10, 02:01 PM
WOW

53 Posts into the thread and nobody has suggested an alternate Tippyverse (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?222007-The-Definitive-Guide-to-the-Tippyverse-By-Emperor-Tippy) yet!
:mad:

I think we've beaten that horse to death over the years.

Erloas
2018-12-10, 03:11 PM
Teleportation Circle, while functional isn't really practical. At the point you can cast it, level 17, you're looking at maybe a hand full of people alive in the world at any given time. Using it to invade is impractical too because no matter what else you do, an army can only move so fast through a single 5ft doorway and it is too small to move any sort of siege equipment through, it would even be questionable how hard it would be to lead horses through, let alone larger animals. You could move a lot of goods if you planned ahead, but at 1000gp you're still not going to want to waste it moving ore or wheat.
Even trying to permanency a teleportation circle in a mine to decrease the amount of time taken to get ores to process, at a minimum of 23,500gp you could run that mine for years and years with mundane labor for a fraction of the price. You could march an entire army across several continents for much less than that.
If you're going to make high level casters that common, you're also going to logically make the counters for those tactics that common too. You could teleport trap a castle for a relatively small cost, compared to the teleportation circle permanency. If your outside of the castle and your army can only stream through a couple people a round it would give the castle guards plenty of time to close the entrances and start shooting people as they come through the portal and then a hand full of dead troops around the portal exit is going to slow down everything even further.

In just the economy side of things you could also already act like it is happening. Maybe without wide spread magic use a short sword would cost 20gp to make, but thanks to wide spread magic use they've gotten the costs down to the 10gp we see today. If we really wanted to get into the economy side of things a world should have a large variety of prices, darkwood would cost more to upgrade if you're far away from the sources and less if you're very close by. A 15gp longsword might cost 12gp in the mountains close to the iron mines and 30gp on the islands where they're brought in as finished goods rather than made at location. The flat market we see is already skewed away from reality, may as well say magic caused it.

LibraryOgre
2018-12-11, 11:10 AM
Hell, why bother with teleportation? Find an alternate prime material plane that is void of life, and use it as a giant warehouse. Need to sell some stuff, open a gate to where you want to sell it, and ship the stuff. Hell, you could set up manufacturing AND warehousing and ship factory direct. Depending on which edition you want to use, you can create a pocket dimension yourself, rather than going hunting for one.


Have you heard of Knights of the Dinner Table and the Bag Wars? (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/92963/Bag-Wars-Saga-TPB?affiliate_id=315505)

Briefly, Bags of Holding in their universe open onto such a dimension. The Knights, being generally horrible to NPCs, take a bunch of their henchmen and their prodigious supplies and stuff them in a bag of holding... and forget about them. The henchmen make use of the supplies to create a society, and start charging the Knights for access to things they store in the Bag World, and hilarity ensues.