HexBlade Paladin needs some TLC

[DamoWamo428]

Hello,
So I'm relatively new to 5E (Have Pathfinder experience and know basics) and am looking to, if I can, optimize my class build as I was allowed too. DM literally wants us to be as gross as possible and break the game so she can throw Gross stuff at us.
We started at Level 12. No gold assigned. Multi-classing allowed.

I'm took a Half-Elf 8Pally/4Hex progression ATM (For ASI to get my stats to as seen below) with Pact of the blade (Long-sword as my +1 weapon??) under Oath of Vengeance. I took Dueling as my Fighting Style. (All are allowed to be changed).

My stats (because I got damn lucky and our Party are all OP) follow as:
15 Strength (For Chain Mail)
18 Dexterity (Because Why not)
18 Constitution (Das nice isn't it)
13 Intelligence (That plus 1 modifier though)
16 Wisdom (Could have put 13 here but well, saving throws)
20 Charisma (Hex Pally Duuhhhhh)

I really just wanna maximize my Damage at base as much as possible and have a good damage spell selection. (Got like 3 utility classes in the party so all good there). Currently a Gloom-Stalker Assassin and some sort of War-Master are doing ungodly levels of DPR. (The MMO Min-Max in me is jealous af)

One request I have is that I'll be keeping Pally Hex, but everything else that could be switched to maximize, go crazy!! (Also Invocations are gonna be Improved Pact and Agonizing Blast) Starting gear is Chain Mail and whatever weapon is picked.

Thanks for any help guys!!!

[Vexacia]

you overrate ASIs and underrate class features.

also those stat rolls are obscene lol.

since you're starting at level 12, go paladin 11/hexblade 1. improved divine smite is A Really Big Deal. you can pump warlock levels after that though, paladin value after level 11 drops off a cliff.

if you're dead set on charisma to hit, feat Polearm Master and wield either a Quarterstaff or Spear (just Quarterstaff if your DM isn't using the November 2018 rules errata).

feat sentinel if you're trying to be a great tank. by coincidence, it's obscenely good in combation with polearm master.

[DamoWamo428]

you overrate ASIs and underrate class features.

also those stat rolls are obscene lol.

since you're starting at level 12, go paladin 11/hexblade 1. improved divine smite is A Really Big Deal. you can pump warlock levels after that though, paladin value after level 11 drops off a cliff.

if you're dead set on charisma to hit, feat Polearm Master and wield either a Quarterstaff or Spear (just Quarterstaff if your DM isn't using the November 2018 rules errata).

feat sentinel if you're trying to be a great tank. by coincidence, it's obscenely good in combination with pole arm master.

Those stat rolls made my life, but they arent the best. My friend got 20 20 18 16 16 12 at base lmao.
And if i were to pump Warlock would I even need to pump above 1 or could i then pick another class?

And Charisma to hit for me is nice (but is it max damage opposing strength or dex?), means i can keep 20 in it and have a plus 5 mod to hit and bonus so yeah.
And I thought Spear but because I'm slow what would it add aside damage drop to D6 lol? And tanking wise I'm pretty chill atm. Got lots of health with 11 pally and the War-Master has like 23 ac base.

Thank you for the help btw!!

[Greywander]

And I thought Spear but because I'm slow what would it add aside damage drop to D6 lol?
The reason you would go for a spear or quarterstaff is for the Polearm Mastery bonus action attack. The dueling fighting style and Improved Divine Smite add damage to each and every weapon attack, and the PAM bonus action attack also adds your ability score mod, unlike dual-wielding, and you can still use a shield. So basically you're making three attacks per round that are collectively doing 1d4 + 2d6 + 3d8 + 21 damage, or 44 average damage per round, if all your attacks hit. And this isn't costing you any resources to do. If you want to, you can stack regular Smites on top of that, allowing you to nova some obscene amounts of damage.


And if i were to pump Warlock would I even need to pump above 1 or could i then pick another class?
Yes, you can get a lot of value from warlock. First off, Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast gives you a solid ranged option. It even does comparable damage, 3d10 + 15 averages to 31.5 damage, which will upgrade to 4d10 + 20 at 17th level, average of 42 damage. It's not fun to be a melee class and suddenly find all your enemies out of reach. This gives you a strong ranged option.

Second, warlock spell slots come back after a short rest, and can be used for paladin smites. Short rest smiting, what's not to love?

As long as we're in the business of multiplying our damage per hit, Hex adds 1d6 more damage on every hit, and works with both weapon attacks and EB. The Hexblade's Curse is even stronger, straight up adding your proficiency bonus to damage. And there's no reason you can't have both Hex and Hexblade's Curse going at the same time. That crit range extension is also tantalizing, what with all these extra dice we're throwing on every hit.

Finally, your pact. If nothing else, Pact of the Chain offers great utility benefits (an invisible, flying familiar, with hands, that can shapeshift, and you can see through its eyes no matter how far away it is from you, and speak through it, lets just say that there's a lot you can do with all that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?571635-The-many-uses-of-an-imp-familiar)). Pact of the Blade is probably what you're looking for, though. The main benefit of going Blade pact is to be able to make any weapon your pact weapon. With the invocation, you can also use your weapon as a warlock spellcasting focus, and since you can make your shield your paladin spell focus, it becomes easier to cast spells. Warcaster completes this by allowing you to perform somatic components with a weapon/shield. You'll have to weigh whether or not you really need the blade pact, otherwise Chain is a great choice.

[DamoWamo428]

The reason you would go for a spear or quarterstaff is for the Polearm Mastery bonus action attack. The dueling fighting style and Improved Divine Smite add damage to each and every weapon attack, and the PAM bonus action attack also adds your ability score mod, unlike dual-wielding, and you can still use a shield. So basically you're making three attacks per round that are collectively doing 1d4 + 2d6 + 3d8 + 21 damage, or 44 average damage per round, if all your attacks hit. And this isn't costing you any resources to do. If you want to, you can stack regular Smites on top of that, allowing you to nova some obscene amounts of damage.


Yes, you can get a lot of value from warlock. First off, Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast gives you a solid ranged option. It even does comparable damage, 3d10 + 15 averages to 31.5 damage, which will upgrade to 4d10 + 20 at 17th level, average of 42 damage. It's not fun to be a melee class and suddenly find all your enemies out of reach. This gives you a strong ranged option.

Second, warlock spell slots come back after a short rest, and can be used for paladin smites. Short rest smiting, what's not to love?

As long as we're in the business of multiplying our damage per hit, Hex adds 1d6 more damage on every hit, and works with both weapon attacks and EB. The Hexblade's Curse is even stronger, straight up adding your proficiency bonus to damage. And there's no reason you can't have both Hex and Hexblade's Curse going at the same time. That crit range extension is also tantalizing, what with all these extra dice we're throwing on every hit.

Finally, your pact. If nothing else, Pact of the Chain offers great utility benefits (an invisible, flying familiar, with hands, that can shapeshift, and you can see through its eyes no matter how far away it is from you, and speak through it, lets just say that. Pact of the Blade is probably what you're looking for, though. The main benefit of going Blade pact is to be able to make any weapon your pact weapon. With the invocation, you can also use your weapon as a warlock spellcasting focus, and since you can make your shield your paladin spell focus, it becomes easier to cast spells. Warcaster completes this by allowing you to perform somatic components with a weapon/shield. You'll have to weigh whether or not you really need the blade pact, otherwise Chain is a great choice.

Ahh okay, in that case i may take a spear then. Currently my pact +1 Long-sword for 3 attacks without anything else does 1d8+8 so I don't know what that averages out at (or the calculations to even start). Id be dropping an ASI though wouldn't I so two lower stats in Wis and Int, probably, maybe, possibly?? Much choice...

So for the next 3 levels til 15th I'd take Pally to get improved divine smite and then take rest warlock for an pally11/hexblade9 setup?

And pact of the blade it would be for me as its part of my lore now. Basically i was a great Paladin who existed 300 before current events. A good old max hex blade came along with a curse but for some odd reason i absorbed the curse which formed this new sort of dark being attached to my soul so sort of set me in stasis for 300 years without me knowing, and that new dark soul now has the primal instinct too protect me. Fast forward and I don't know its been 300 years so everything is new and scary to me which scares this dark one. Currently for RP im getting used to these new powers and its lashing out at threats. I have a home-brew lightning attack that kinda just does what it wants, it even struck my party first time we met which was funny!

Chain is cool as hell though!!

Thankyou for the help!!

[CTurbo]

With stats like that, avoid Hexblade completely. You'll be better off going full Paladin. Switch the Str and Dex, Take PAM, Sentinel, and +2 Str

[mephnick]

Those stat rolls made my life, but they arent the best. My friend got 20 20 18 16 16 12 at base lmao.!

What are you guys rolling? 10d6?

[MThurston]

What are you guys rolling? 10d6?

LOL. Not sure how they are rolling 20's.

[DamoWamo428]

Rolled 4D6 and the DM allowed us to roll 2d6 after and replace one number of the results. Its a weird system and I and my friend rolled 6's so we replaced the 2's in most of our stuff. ASI's coming into account too with race **** but yah, they're pretty gross... I was allowed it so just stayed silent lmao

[Guy Lombard-O]

Ahh okay, in that case i may take a spear then. Currently my pact +1 Long-sword for 3 attacks without anything else does 1d8+8 so I don't know what that averages out at (or the calculations to even start). Id be dropping an ASI though wouldn't I so two lower stats in Wis and Int, probably, maybe, possibly?? Much choice...

So, a couple of thoughts. Don't know if that's a misprint, but I think with your build you can only do 2 long sword attacks, not 3? That makes the PAM spear flat out better. Particularly if you go with the 11/1 split suggested above, for the improved divine smite add on (I'd also note that you'll have to choose between Hex and Divine Favor/Crusader's Mantle for concentration damage buff - Hex for a couple BBGs, or one of the others for lots of mooks because switching Hex target uses your bonus action and you want to keep that for PAM). I'd definitely go at least pally 9, for the 3rd level spells, and personally I think the improved divine smite is worth 11th level here.

You clearly have the stats to do whatever you want with this build! You don't need any hexblade at all, you have no MAD problem to overcome. But if you want to keep it (I probably would), it sounds like you used ASIs for Wis and Int bumps? You can easily dump that in favor of a feat, like warcaster, elven accuracy (you are a half-elf vengeance pally, after all), or something else that'll do more for you. Sounds like you've got stiff in-party competition, if you want to hold up your end of things! Good luck and have fun!

[Wildarm]

Starting at Level 12 with those stats? I'd go Conquest Pally7/Hexblade 5 - Pickup Polearm Master and Sentinel. You'll be a tanking monster.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?543427-The-Wall-of-Fear-A-Complete-Guide-to-the-Oath-of-Conquest

Also, I'd suggest putting 18 into STR not DEX. As a front liner you want to be able to make Athletics Checks and STR saves. Otherwise you'll have a harder time with shove/trip attacks, grapples and resisting things trying to drag or knock you over.

Another option of interest is a straight Level 12 Battlemaster Fighter Mountain Dwarf. Heavy Armor Master, Polearm Master, Sentinel and Great Weapon Master. 20 STR/CON and you'll have 4 attacks and all the top tier melee feats. Choose whatever you want after that as further progression in fighter doesn't gain you that much. You've got the stats to do pretty much whatever you want.

[Keravath]

Ahh okay, in that case i may take a spear then. Currently my pact +1 Long-sword for 3 attacks without anything else does 1d8+8 so I don't know what that averages out at (or the calculations to even start). Id be dropping an ASI though wouldn't I so two lower stats in Wis and Int, probably, maybe, possibly?? Much choice...

So for the next 3 levels til 15th I'd take Pally to get improved divine smite and then take rest warlock for an pally11/hexblade9 setup?

And pact of the blade it would be for me as its part of my lore now. Basically i was a great Paladin who existed 300 before current events. A good old max hex blade came along with a curse but for some odd reason i absorbed the curse which formed this new sort of dark being attached to my soul so sort of set me in stasis for 300 years without me knowing, and that new dark soul now has the primal instinct too protect me. Fast forward and I don't know its been 300 years so everything is new and scary to me which scares this dark one. Currently for RP im getting used to these new powers and its lashing out at threats. I have a home-brew lightning attack that kinda just does what it wants, it even struck my party first time we met which was funny!

Chain is cool as hell though!!

Thankyou for the help!!


Just curious how you figure 3 attacks with your long sword? Extra attack only gives you one more attack and you aren't using two weapon fighting so as far as I can see you only get 2 attacks.

The suggestion of taking the Polearm Master Feat was an idea to give you an extra bonus action attack so you could make 3 attacks with the polearm.

I would also second the suggestion of starting as a 11 paladin/1 hexblade using a quarterstaff or spear + shield ... which gives you the paladin improved divine strike feature at level 11 along with 3 attacks/round. Go hexblade from there out ... at level 13 you will get your agonizing blast + other invocation. However, honestly, with 18 dex you are fine with ranged weapons though EB will be better in the long run.

[Nhorianscum]

Going to assume oathbreaker and trecherydin are off the table.

The issue here is that with those rolls hexblade isn't really bringing anything to the build before 12th level damage wise. At 20 str/18 cha we're more functional as a full pally up to 13th level and with hunters mark, haste, and find greater steed Venge is going to just deal more damage with a great weapon. Past 13th we do eventually get more slots/day from hex but that comes very late.

Similarly hexblade 12 grants thirsting blade along with 3 5th level spells/short rest and a 6th level spell. At the least we need 3 levels here for blade pact on a 2 hander or 5 for Esmite to get returns.

(Yeah padlock is backloaded into tier 4 if you're not just dipping hex 1 for SAD on a S&B din)

Anyways, builds. Venge 9/Hex3. GWM+PAM Here we go Venge13/hex7 taking Mounted Combatant at 12 Din and just divebomb fools with haste. PAM is a bit ugly here with all our bonus action usage but we can have haste up every single fight thanks to hex so our combat looks like Haste+Curse+Oath wail away for 4d10+4d8+20+20+40 double smiting on crits. Alternately SoM gives us a nice secondary source of superadvantage.

Hexblade 12. Finish as Hex17/Paladin 3 or hex13/paladin7. 12 is such a huge level for hex that skipping it is hard to justify. Chose between a super late save aura (Ancients) or a dip for some 1st level slots with true polymorph.

Din6/Lock1/Sorc 5 scaling to 6/1/13. If you're gonna go S&B lock is pretty pointless past 1. Sorc on the other hand is... notorious.

[DamoWamo428]

Thankyou for the feedback guys and yeah 3 attacks was a typo sorry! so general consensus follows as 11/1!
Ill deffo go spear then Elven-Accuracy seems good! Basically negates an ASI dip lol.

And Ill deffo be staying Hexblade paladin because its my lore.

Once ive got a new sheet built ill post it up to see how it goes, thanks again for the help everyone!!