Sword and Pistol Build

[Zephyrz]

I was looking into making a PC that could dual-wield revolvers for ranged and use a Scimitar/Revolver for melee. I found a couple of ways to add Dex to damage with guns that seem to stack. Here is my current build idea at level 14. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

25 Point buy
Human Pistolero 5, Trench Fighter 3, Savage Technologist 5, Vivisectionist 1
Str:10 Dex:21 Con:16
Int:10 Wis:14 Cha:10

Feats:
Pistolero 1 Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Savage Technologist 1
Savage Technologist 2 Weapon Finesse, Two Weapon Fighting with Scimitar/Revolver while raging
Savage Technologist 3
Savage Technologist 4 Weapon Focus: Revolver
Savage Technologist 5 Dex:Damage
Vivisectionist 1 Quick Draw, Mutagen, Sneak Attack d6
Trench Fighter 1 Two Weapon Fighting
Trench Fighter 2 Opening Volley, Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Trench Fighter 3 Dex:Damage
Pistolero 2 Clustered Shots
Pistolero 3
Pistolero 4 Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Hammer the Gap
Pistolero 5 Dex:Damage


Haven't really gotten magic items/gear figured out yet but I want to at least have the following.
Agile Scimitar +1 x2 (In case you run out of loaded Revolvers and can't reload or you lose one in combat)
Multiple Revolvers (The idea is to not have to spend time to reload. Quick draw a new Revolver and keep up the damage.)

The idea is to use Savage Technologist for your Two Weapon Fighting early on and +4 Dex for Raging. Level 3 you can start using a Scimitar and Revolver effectively (You want to start trying to get an Agile Scimitar from this point on). At level 6 you get your first boost to damage from your Dex and when the build really starts to pack a punch. At this point you should have Dex:19 +4(rage) =Dex:23 +6 attack/damage/Ac. Level 7 dipping Vivisectionist for mutagen to get another +4 Dex and ability to deal a bit of sneak attack damage. This is the only time we don't get an increase to B.A.B. but I find the extra Dex to be far more worthwhile. Dex:27 +8 attack/damage/AC

Once we have our Dex boosters online, I want to pick up some extra feats and work towards getting another Dex to damage for the Revolvers. Trench Fighter works great, 3 levels gives 2 feats and a bonus to damage equal to Dex modifier. This is where I pile on the Two Weapon Fighting feats and Opening Volley to keep chance to hit high (+4 to scimitar attack if your Revolver hits touch ac before it). Picking up the Two Weapon Fighting feats allows you to dual-wield Revolver as well. I should be hitting with most attacks while having respectable AC. Level 8 You get to increase Dex to 20 baseline, bumping everything up by 1. At level 10 you add a Dex bonus to damage. At this point you should be hitting for 18 damage per Revolver shot, 9 per Agile Scimitar. +9(bab) +9(dex) -2(twf) +16 to hit without adding bonuses to weapons (weapon focus/magic items).

Now that we have the second damage increase we move back to Pistolero for the third increase. The feats here cap off the multi attacking side of things. Clustered shots will help overcome DR, Greater Two Weapon Fighting gives you your last off-hand attack, and Hammer the Gap gives increasing damage per hit without penalty (you might note that none of the feats so far have put penalties to hit besides two weapon fighting). At level 14 we get our Pistolero to 5, granting us our third Dex damage increase, and increase its up close and deadly damage to 2d6. At this point we should have Dex 29: +9 attack, +27 damage.

Level 6 Revolver/Scimitar full attack (while raging): +12(r)/+10(s)/+7(r)
Damage d6+7/d6+7/d6+7 If all hit 24 damage minimum.

Level 10 Full attack R/S raging and mutagen: +18(r)/+20-16(s)/+13(r)/+15-11 (s)
Damage d6+19(r)/d6+9(s) If all hit 60 damage minimum
Full attack R/R raging and mutagen: +18/+18/+13/+13
Damage d6+19 If all hit 80 damage minimum

Level 14 Full attack R/S raging and mutagen: +23(r)/+25-21(s)/+18(r)/+20-16(s)/+13(r)/+15-11(s)
Damage d6+28(r)/d6+9 If all hit 126 damage minimum (Hammer the gap adds 15 damage)
Full attack R/R raging and mutagen: +23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+13
Damage d6+28 If all hit 177 damage minimum (Hammer the gap adds 15 damage)

Any thoughts or advice is always greatly appreciated.

[heavyfuel]

I'm about to start a character using Path of War that basically uses a sword and a pistol. She knows a few ranged maneuvers and thus doesn't worry about iterative attacks very much.

Dunno how well she'll do in practice, but in theory she's going to have a respectable DPR, as well as a bunch of out of combat utility. Might want to take a look at the system if your DM has made it available to you.

[grarrrg]

I was looking into making a PC that could dual-wield pistols for ranged and use a Scimitar/pistol for melee. I found a couple of ways to add Dex to damage with guns that seem to stack. Here is my current build idea at level 14. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

First off, the big issue:
You can't add the same ability score to the same thing twice (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9sgk).
You can get DEX-to-damage once.


Pistolero costs 1 Grit -per shot- to add damage. Most prefer to go with Mysterious Stranger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo-gunslinger-archetypes/mysterious-stranger) here, the damage bonus is less, but 1 Grit affects all attacks for the turn. Especially since your Grit pool is horribly low.

You might consider Dervish Dance feat (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat) instead of an Agile Scimitar.

I didn't bother to run the exact numbers to see if you're right (I am wondering why your Pistol has +2 to-hit vs. the sword), but reminding that for TWF neither guns, nor Scimitars are Light weapons, so you would take -4/-4 penalties.

You keep saying 'pistol', but state "Weapon Focus: Revolver". I hope you intend (and are able) to use Revolvers for this, as you have no way to reload your gun while TWF. You also say "just drop and grab another", but without Revolvers, you'd have to drop after every shot (or every 2 shots with Double-Barreled), and that many guns is $$$$.

I'm not sure Vivisectionist is worth it. 1 hour to brew a Mutagen (and can only have 1 prepped at a time), a Standard to drink it, a duration of only 10 Minutes, and your WIS takes a hit dropping your max Grit even further.
A 4th level of Fighter would get you a Bab and Weapon Specialization, MUCH more generally useful.

I also have concerns about your Rage duration, as you only get "no ranged AoO's" while raging. You may want to pick up Sword and Pistol or Point Blank Master feats.



Normally I'd try to offer more specific/less nit-picky advice, but considering the core of your build is a no-go, I'll wait to see what version 2.0 looks like first.

[Zephyrz]

Thank you for pointing out the Pistol/Revolver mistake. The bonuses would be from point blank shot and weapon focus. Effortless Lace could make the scimitar a light weapon for two weapon fighting if I'm not mistaken.

I was under the impression that untyped bonuses from different sources/names stacked as well as the wording being different. If those don't stack then I must return to the drawing board and make a new build for this.

[grarrrg]

I was under the impression that untyped bonuses from different sources/names stacked as well as the wording being different. If those don't stack then I must return to the drawing board and make a new build for this.

Normally untyped bonuses stack, but the FAQ says this would be an 'ability bonus' (an untyped, straight stat-to-thing bonus) and counts as the same source so they don't stack.

And none of the abilities make specific exceptions (and they're worded almost identically anyway).

[inuyasha]

I dunno if you've seen it, but if you're interested in a not super complicated way of dual-wielding a sword and a pistol, I recommend the Picaroon Swashbuckler archetype (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/swashbuckler/archetypes/paizo-swashbuckler-archetypes/picaroon/), which is made for exactly that.

[stack]

I was looking into making a PC that could dual-wield revolvers for ranged and use a Scimitar/Revolver for melee.



You might consider Dervish Dance feat (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat) instead of an Agile Scimitar.


Dervish Dance: "You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand."

Need a way to stow weapons freely to make that work smoothly.

[grarrrg]

Dervish Dance: "You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand."

Need a way to stow weapons freely to make that work smoothly.

Ah, woopsie.
Was trying to cover too many different things and wasn't all that thorough.
Probably stick with Agile then. Unless you wind up having to use single-shot pistols, then options are back on the table (not necessarily good ones mind you...)

[TheFamilarRaven]

Try this out.
Race: Human
class (archetype)/class level --- total level: feat(s)
Fighter (trench fighter)/1 --- 1: Point blank shot, precise shot, TWF
Fighter (trench fighter)/2 --- 2: Weapon Finesse
Fighter (trench fighter)/3 --- 3: Weapon Focus(Revolver), Dazzling Display
Fighter (trench fighter)/4 --- 4: Gun Twirling
Barbarian (Savage Technologist)/1 --- 5: Rapid Reload
Barbarian (Savage Technologist)/2 --- 6:
Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger)/1 --- 7: Improved TWF
Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger)/2 --- 8:
Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger)/3 --- 9: Clustered Shots
Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger)/4 --- 10: Quick Draw
Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger)/5 --- 11: Greater Two Weapon Fighting

General idea is that the levels in fighter will give you dex to damage and sorely needed bonus feats. The TWF line is standard fare, but if you want to reliably unleash full attacks in combat you'll need rapid reload+alchemical cartridges (note i'm not sure if alchemical cartridges are allowed with modern firearms.), and you need a hand free to reload, hence the gun twirling feat. The two levels in savage technologist allows you to fire in melee and swing a weapon around, otherwise you'll need to invest in the Point Blank Master feat which require weapon specialization (possible but not build efficient, consider more levels in fighter if you go this route). Mysterious stranger gives the grit points needed to make full use of Gun Twirling, and the CHA to damage with attacks is a good bonus, also throw in the ability to ignore misfire.

You could play around with the order of feats (I won't claim its the most efficient distribution), but with this build you should be able to reliably duel wield revolvers and reload them as a free action (using alchemical cartridges). You're stuck with an agile weapon to get dex to damage on your melee however unless you invest 3 levels into rogue. Also, you may want to pick up Deadly Aim along the way. Keep in mind, I would not want to play a duel wielding gunslinger from level 1 up, but if you start at a reasonably high level this could be a fun build.

[grarrrg]

(note i'm not sure if alchemical cartridges are allowed with modern firearms.)
They aren't, but you don't need them.
"Advanced firearms are chamber-loaded. It is a move action to load a one-handed or two-handed advanced firearm to its full capacity. The Rapid Reload feat reduces this to a free action."
Revolvers hold 6 shots, so he's good for ~2 rounds of Full Attacks before reloading/new-gun-ing.

There's also always the option of being a Prehensile Tail race for a semi-third arm (or Gundolon...you know you want to...).


otherwise you'll need to invest in the Point Blank Master feat which require weapon specialization (possible but not build efficient, consider more levels in fighter if you go this route). Mysterious stranger gives the grit points needed to make full use of Gun Twirling, and the CHA to damage with attacks is a good bonus, also throw in the ability to ignore misfire.
If taking levels in Fighter anyway, I'd say Point Blank Master is probably the way to go over Barbarian.
Savage Technologist gives a lot of good things at a lower level, but it's fairly situational and/or redundant at higher levels. I'd skip the Savage entirely.

Also, Mysterious Gunslingers still get Gun Training at level 9, depending on start level, you could drop Trench Fighter and go with a different Fighter archetype.


Deadly Aim

Deadly Aim yes.

[TheFamilarRaven]

They aren't, but you don't need them.
"Advanced firearms are chamber-loaded. It is a move action to load a one-handed or two-handed advanced firearm to its full capacity. The Rapid Reload feat reduces this to a free action."
Revolvers hold 6 shots, so he's good for ~2 rounds of Full Attacks before reloading/new-gun-ing.


Good to know. Never used advanced firearms before.



If taking levels in Fighter anyway, I'd say Point Blank Master is probably the way to go over Barbarian.
Savage Technologist gives a lot of good things at a lower level, but it's fairly situational and/or redundant at higher levels. I'd skip the Savage entirely.

Also, Mysterious Gunslingers still get Gun Training at level 9, depending on start level, you could drop Trench Fighter and go with a different Fighter archetype.


Agreed. It would depend on the amount of levels given to play around with. I would like to know whether this is just a theoretical build or an actual character build. Otherwise I'd make a 1-20 build.

But one thing I hope the OP takes note of is that duel wielding the revolvers is going to be far more optimal than using sword and pistol style of fighting. And with the Point Blank Master feat it becomes viable to just stick with the two guns rather than pulling out a melee weapon. The build i posted can do the gun part fairly well, with the melee weapon capability slapped on per the parameters of the original build.

That being said, OP, I would recommend focusing on one style or the other. Whichever sounds cooler to you.

[Zephyrz]

The character is more about the flavor of dual-wielding than the number crunch (though that side of me keeps going off on tangents and finding 3 new builds to make each time). Focusing on one weapon over the other seems to be impossible to avoid without ending up with both hitting like wet noodles. I'm trying to find something to make it more combat potent but not entirely without dropping one of the weapons. The extra limbs/tail would be off limits for this build.

Level wise the plan is to start at 15 and move to 20 and possibly higher as the campaign progresses. Picaroon seems good for a 1 level 2 feat dip with increase to grit/panache pool. I'm not sure about taking the savage technologist due to being a 2 level sink where a feat would cover and the rage not being long enough, going into it would give me access to pounce at level 10. Fighter would give plenty of feats and bonuses to keep me hitting (which shouldn't be a problem with using guns). The gunslinger deeds just don't seem to jump out at me (outside clipping shot).

The character is supposed to be a leader of a pirate crew that uses technology to overwhelm their opponents. Getting into the fight with a scimitar and blasting people with bullets. Drop gun, grab a loaded one, style of combat (it can be picked up after is the thought). Though the Summoner is in many ways really awesome, it doesn't fit for this character (love the idea and summoners in general). I know that in many cases focusing on either scimitar or gun is (greatly) more advantageous, and might have to be the way to go, I would like to find a good balance. Currently thinking mysterious Stranger 1 Picaroon 1 Trench Fighter X and/or Sneak Attacker X.

Yes deadly aim will be a part of the build.

[TheFamilarRaven]

If you have 15 levels to play with...

class (archetype)/class level --- total level: feat(s)
Fighter (any)/1 --- 1: Point blank shot, precise shot, TWF
Fighter (any)/2 --- 2: Weapon Finesse
Fighter (any)/3 --- 3: Weapon Focus(Revolver), Dazzling Display
Fighter (any)/4 --- 4: Gun Twirling
Fighter (any)/5--- 5: Weapon Specialization(Revolver)
Fighter (any)/6--- 6: Point Blank Master
Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger)/1 --- 7: Improved TWF
Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger)/2 --- 8:
Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger)/3 --- 9: Clustered Shots
Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger)/4 --- 10: Quick Draw
Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger)/5 --- 11: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger)/6 --- 12:
Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger)/7 --- 13: Deadly Aim
Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger)/8 --- 14: Rapid Reload (or Opening Volley if you plan on just dropping spent guns)
Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger)/9 --- 15: Piranha Strike

This will do everything you asked for reasonably well. Although you would have to use a Short sword or other light weapon for piranha strike to work (unless your DM rules it works for all finesse weapons*, I usually do), and you'll still want the agile enchantment placed on your melee weapon. This build can duel wield firearms, reload them as a free action (with Rapid Reload), can wade into melee, use guns in melee and stab a few mooks while they're there. Since Grit is keyed off charisma in this case, it also fits the bill for a "leader" type character. Maxing out intimidate seems very appropriate for a pirate, and maximizes the effectiveness of dazzling display. Piranha strike give an extra oomph to your melee attack.


*Bare in mind a scimitar is not a finesse weapon.

[Andor13]

There is also the Privateer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/classes/martial-class-templates/privateer-template/) template for Warlord or Stalker if Path of War is on the table.

They can easily be built for a sword and pistol style, with bonuses for two-weapon fighting, and some neat abilities like Sea Combat and Sneak Shot. Plus you get to scare people by laughing at them.