[3.5] Did I miss a healer?

[Bavarian itP]

So, I came across the following description in TV Tropes:


The Healer class in 3.5, as the name implies, was an attempt at making a pure healing class without any of the martial attributes of the Cleric. They're immune to diseases and poisons, they can heal with a touch, and they can center a healing wave on themselves, and all that is in addition to their actual spells (which includes a lot of the Cleric's protection and buffing spells, but not the entire Cleric spell list). Plus, their spellcasting is spontaneous so they don't have to prepare their spells, they can cast healing spells in response to allies getting attacked (and not just on their turn), and they can maximize healing several times a day. In exchange, they can only use quarterstaffs as weapons and cannot use armor or shields (though they keep the Cleric's good attack bonus), they have smaller hit dice, and they have none of the Cleric's offensive spells (like Flame Strike), making them far less of a combatant than a Cleric.

This is obviously not the healer class from the Miniatures Handbook, because that has neither spontaneous casting, nor a medium BAB, nor is it immune to diseases and poisons ... actually, nothing of the above description, except, "it has spells" fits the MinH healer. So is there a different 3.5 class called healer with that attributes, or did someone at TVTropes just talk out of the wrong hole (it IS a wiki, after all)?

[Telonius]

The troper appears to be yet another victim of dandwiki (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Healer_(3.5e_Class)). (Their homebrew class sounds an awful lot like what the trope describes).

EDIT: Here's a link (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Emergency_Response_(3.5e_Feat)) to the "Emergency Response" feat referenced there. Immediate action healing, so yeah, dandwiki's the source.

[Alent]

That sounds almost like a Gestalt of Favored Soul and Healer in some ways... and yet... very much isn't. Weeeeeird. :smallconfused:

Maybe one of the Tropers went to D&D Wiki for their research and got a homebrew Healer "Fix" and mistook it for the official one? It wouldn't be the first time D&D Wiki lead someone astray.

Edit: and in the time I spent answering my phone and hitting post, swordsaged~

[Bavarian itP]

dandwiki, we meet again!

Thanks guys :smallwink:

[grarrrg]

dandwiki, we meet again!

Thanks guys :smallwink:

So... Did you fix the TVTropes then?

[Bavarian itP]

So... Did you fix the TVTropes then?

It's on my list :smallwink: But feel free to swordsage me (It's on the "White Mage" trope page).

[grarrrg]

It's on my list :smallwink: But feel free to swordsage me (It's on the "White Mage" trope page).
I don't even keep up with Pathfinder anymore, and you want me to dig up enough info on a 3.5 class?

"Dnd 3.5 has a class called Healer. It casts healing magic."
Done :smalltongue:

[OgresAreCute]

"Dnd 3.5 has a class called Healer. It casts mediocre healing magic."

Fixed. Don't want them to get the wrong impression.

[grarrrg]

Fixed. Don't want them to get the wrong impression.

Thank you.
So does that mean you're fixing the TVTropes?

[OgresAreCute]

Thank you.
So does that mean you're fixing the TVTropes?

Hehe, nope. I was just making a joke.

[grarrrg]

Hehe, nope. I was just making a joke.

Why is no one fixing the thing!?
THINK OF THE CHILDREN! (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThinkOfTheChildren)

[Thurbane]

Yeah, it's a bit sad that the Healer class (MH) is generally worse at healing than the core Cleric.

It's a class that I want to like, but gets used as an NPC class like Expert or Adept in my games.

[Luccan]

Yeah, it's a bit sad that the Healer class (MH) is generally worse at healing than the core Cleric.

It's a class that I want to like, but gets used as an NPC class like Expert or Adept in my games.

In the right game, I think it could be fun. You do need to expand its spell list a bit, I'll admit, but I guess that's what the Spell Compendium is for. I had an idea for letting players choose how to expand their healer's spell lists as they leveled at one point, but I can't seem to remember how it was supposed to work. All my notes say is that I should allow it, without guidelines written down, unfortunately.

[Fizban]

Y'all know that the MH Healer has a bunch of healing spells a full level earlier than the Cleric, as well as those 1/day Su status removals (which they can't be prevented from activating say, from paralysis or ability damage, and never have gp or xp components), right?

There's a difference between being a worse class overall, and being a worse healer. Compare a core+MH Cleric to a core+MH Healer on their pure healing merits, and the Healer will win. The Cleric is better because they're already engineered to be the party's fallback for everything, and have splatbook support (direct in spell lists, and indirect on the feats a healer really wants which are all tied to Turn Undead uses).

And even then, the Healer has something the Cleric can't touch: full in-class access to spellcasting underlings. A Cleric has to bargain with the DM via Planar Ally and cash, or use Leadership (which yes, is also explicitly DM controlled). A 12th level Healer has their choice of a Gynosphinx, Lammasu, or Water Naga. Look those up: 7th level sorcerer, 7th level cleric, and for the sphinx a little thing I like to call "every single Symbol spell oh and also Legend Lore (and throw in some See Invis and Cairaudience/voyance)."

Yeah. The Healer's got some borked stuff no one actually considered for table play or various meanings of balance in there too. Just no one notices. Any other character that'd be called huge, but for the Healer it might be just the right amount. Or not. I still buff it a bunch myself (and ought to remove that Gynosphinx while I'm at it).

[HouseRules]

Y'all know that the MH Healer has a bunch of healing spells a full level earlier than the Cleric, as well as those 1/day Su status removals (which they can't be prevented from activating say, from paralysis or ability damage, and never have gp or xp components), right?

There's a difference between being a worse class overall, and being a worse healer. Compare a core+MH Cleric to a core+MH Healer on their pure healing merits, and the Healer will win. The Cleric is better because they're already engineered to be the party's fallback for everything, and have splatbook support (direct in spell lists, and indirect on the feats a healer really wants which are all tied to Turn Undead uses).

And even then, the Healer has something the Cleric can't touch: full in-class access to spellcasting underlings. A Cleric has to bargain with the DM via Planar Ally and cash, or use Leadership. A 12th level Healer has their choice of a Gynosphinx, Lammasu, or Water Naga. Look those up: 7th level sorcerer, 7th level cleric, and for the sphinx a little thing I like to call "every single Symbol spell oh and also Legend Lore (and throw in some See Invis and Cairaudience/voyance)."

Yeah. The Healer's got some borked stuff no one actually considered for table play or various meanings of balance in there too. Just no one notices. Any other character that'd be called huge, but for the Healer it might be just the right amount. Or not. I still buff it a bunch myself (and ought to remove that Gynosphinx while I'm at it).

And then the 14th level Cleric with a 12th level Healer as Cohort wins? No the 14th level Healer with a 12th level Healer Cohort that has a 10th level Healer Cohort that has an 8th level Healer Cohort that has a 6th level Healer Cohort that has a 4th level Healer Cohort?

[Fizban]

Psst. Taking Leadership also requires explicit DM approval, making its use no more automatic than Planar Ally. /whisper

[Bavarian itP]

Whoops, new posts.


I don't even keep up with Pathfinder anymore, and you want me to dig up enough info on a 3.5 class?

"Dnd 3.5 has a class called Healer. It casts healing magic."
Done :smalltongue:

Actually, since TVTropes has an extremly liberal "notability" policy, there is no reason at all to remove the info on the homebrewed healer. One should just add a warning that this is homebrew content ... you know, like the warning that dandwiki DOES NOT HAVE :smalltongue:

[Troacctid]

Actually, since TVTropes has an extremly liberal "notability" policy, there is no reason at all to remove the info on the homebrewed healer. One should just add a warning that this is homebrew content ... you know, like the warning that dandwiki DOES NOT HAVE :smalltongue:
In that case it wouldn't be under the D&D entry, though, since it's not part of the official material. Examples from fanfiction (homebrew, of course, being the game design equivalent of fanfiction) are always separate from the work they're based off of, barring reaction tropes (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AudienceReactions).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Thurbane
Yeah, it's a bit sad that the Healer class (MH) is generally worse at healing than the core Cleric.


Originally Posted by Fizban
Compare a core+MH Cleric to a core+MH Healer on their pure healing merits, and the Healer will win.

Given the differences in opinion about the healer, has anyone ever done a level-by-level analysis of its healing output compared with the cleric?

And can anyone report on the healer’s performance based on actual play? Last year there was an attempt to “stress test” several classes, including the healer, in this short thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?531282-3-5-Stress-Testing-the-Party), but unfortunately it fizzled before anything came of it.

Like Thurbane, I really like the healer, but it seems to have been pre-eclipsed by the cleric, for reasons noted above.


Originally Posted by Luccan
I had an idea for letting players choose how to expand their healer's spell lists as they leveled at one point, but I can't seem to remember how it was supposed to work.

I like this expanded spell list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?274241-Better-Healer-spell-list) for the healer, which I'd been planning to use in the short-lived stress test.

[ATHATH]

So, uh, does anyone here have a TV Tropes account that they can use to fix the entry?

[Khedrac]

I played a healer as an DMPC so while not definitive, I think I have a good feel for it.

Generally Healers heal more with their spells - because they get all the mass cure X spells one level lower than clerics. Adding their charisma to the amount healed is a minuscule bonus (it's almost outweighed by it being more irritatring to qualify for augment healing since they wouldn't necessarily be taking the skills).

The big advantage for clerics is spontaneous casting (and the spontaneous healing feat is limited to charisma mod/day so is no match) - this means a healing cleric can load up on the vigor line of spells and status removals, but still cast the in-combat heals if required. A healer cannot match this.

Where a healer shines is their free status cure abilities - once they get to a decent level they don't need to wait until tomorrow to memorise a rare cure - they have it 1/day as a SLA.

In general healers are actually very effective (if you get the right balance of spells memorized) but they can be boring to play - especially if the party isn't taking damage (which is why they make a good DMPC).

Also the MIC item set Raiment of the Four is nice to pick up because it does allow the healer to do other things.

[Thurbane]

Yeah, I have a real soft spot for Healers, but it's hard to justify them when Clerics exist.

Maybe their best role, as has been touched on, is as an NPC/DMPC so they don't outshine the PCs.

A couple of the homebrew fixes I see quite often for the class are to make them cast off Cha alone (to further benefit from Healing Hands), and to make them similar to Beguilers or Warmages: able to cast spontaneously from their entire spell list.

[grarrrg]

So, uh, does anyone here have a TV Tropes account that they can use to fix the entry?

I have an account (not that it takes all that much to have one...), but not the necessary familiarity to properly fix it.
For that matter, it looks like the last guy made 'companion' edits to the Cleric and Favored Soul write-ups, and all three classes reference the others, so those would need to be tweaked as well.

Link because I realized no one linked to it directly yet (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhiteMage) (under "Tabletop Games" folder)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Khedrac
In general healers are actually very effective (if you get the right balance of spells memorized) but they can be boring to play….

What spells would you consider part of the right balance?

And what else could healers be doing to head off any potential boredom?


Originally Posted by Thurbane
A couple of the homebrew fixes I see quite often for the class are to make them cast off Cha alone (to further benefit from Healing Hands), and to make them similar to Beguilers or Warmages: able to cast spontaneously from their entire spell list.

These both seem like good ideas, thanks.

[Blackhawk748]

Me and a buddy did some fixing on the Healer awhile back. I can't remember exactly what all the fixes were but I know I let it wear metal armor (such an odd restriction) expanded its spell list by adding some general buffs and Im pretty sure also let them cast all spells with the [Healing} descriptor at one level lower. Yes, that made Cure Light an Orison. No I didn't care in slightest.

[Thurbane]

And what else could healers be doing to head off any potential boredom?

As memorised casters, they have access to Sanctified spells, which helps a little.

[Blackhawk748]

And what else could healers be doing to head off any potential boredom?

Make them an actual White Mage who gets various buff spells?

[Elkad]

I've used this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?133118-Retooling-the-Healer-(Heal-it!-Heal-it!-No-one-wants-to-be-defeated)homebrew version of Healer in a game.

It was a cohort, so the passive role wasn't a big deal. Despite being 2 levels behind the party, very good at his job. Possibly too good for the game I was in, the GM got frustrated with his inability to challenge us, though the Healer was only part of that.

[Fizban]

A couple of the homebrew fixes I see quite often for the class are to make them cast off Cha alone (to further benefit from Healing Hands), and to make them similar to Beguilers or Warmages: able to cast spontaneously from their entire spell list.

These both seem like good ideas, thanks.
And as I do every time it comes up, I have to point out that this is not as great as people think it is. The game does not expect you to be able to remove status effects immediately without preparation- it expects you to remove them tomorrow, or that being able to so today is the result of smart decisions/roleplaying/etc. The Healer has those 1/day abilities, which means they don't have to wait until tomorrow. . . for one use. Fixing the entire party or storming multiple instances requires preparation, just like the cleric. Spontaneous status removal for everything removes the last real choice that has to be made. With spontaneous cure spells, every fight is reduced to X spells worth of hp, but you still have to worry about status effects sticking and forcing you back. With every status spell, that means that everything is reduced to X spells worth of recovery and nothing sticks until you're completely out, and status effects are only as dangerous as the rounds they lose this combat.

My own fix very deliberately keeps the Healer as a prepared caster. What I do instead is give them parity with clerics by duplicating (or lightly exceeding) the basic healing build a cleric would have via class features, fill out and rearrange the 1/day Su list so it makes sense, and massively expand the spell list to include all the splatbook healing of note, the PHB immunity buffs they need to fully fill the "Cleric" role, and a few weak or "it's a trap" offensive effects just for fun.

You know what? I keep on going on about it without something to link to, I should just shove it in a post so I can link to it in the future. X-treme spoiler go!

Healer

Add Ride to skill list.
Add Wis to AC when wearing light non-metal or no armor and no shield.
Spell access, bonus slots, and save DCs are all based on Wisdom.
Gain Spontaneous Cure Spells as Cleric.
Unicorn Companion changed to Celestial Companion, uses Paladin's Special Mount table but replacing Command with Devotion, and Healers use an alternate companion list.
Added and rearranged class features:



Level
Special
Level
Special


1st
Healing Hands, Skill Focus (Heal)
11th
Maximized Cure Spells


2nd
Augment Healing, Cleanse Fear
12th
Ranged Healing 60', New Limb


3rd
Cleanse Paralysis
13th
-


4th
Bolster Healing, Cleanse Disease
14th
Cleanse Death


5th
Celestial Companion, Cleanse Blind
15th
-


6th
Ranged Healing 30', Cleanse Poison
16th
Reverse Death


7th
Effortless Healing, Cleanse Curse
17th
-


8th
Cleanse Conditions
18th
Ranged Healing 120'


9th
Cleanse Petrification
19th
-


10th
Cleanse Spirit
20th
New Life



Augment Healing: at 1st level a healer gains Augment Healing (Complete Divine) as a bonus feat.
Bolster Healing: at 4th level a healer's spells are further augmented. Any Conjuration [Healing] spell she casts also grants the targets 1 temporary hit point per caster level, which last for up to 1 minute.
Celestial Companion: Healer companions are always highly magical, with multiple spell-like abilities or even their own innate casting. The Healer's first companion is usually a Celestial Swiftmane (Ghostwalk WE), with bonuses at her full Healer level. Alternative companions include:
7th: Celestial Unicorn (Level-2)
8th: Celestial Pegasus (Level-3)
11th: Lammasu, Gynosphyinx (recently stricken due to Symbol SLAs), Water Naga, Leskylor (BoED) (Level -6)
15th: Androsphynx, Coutal, Moon Dog (BoED), (level -10)

DMs interested in allowing more aggresive, combat focused, or peculiar companions might also allow:
13th: 9HD large Ravid (MM), Crypt Warden (BoED) (Level -8),
14th: Three-Headed Leskylor (BoED) (Level -9)
Ranged Healing: at 6th level a healer's Conjuration [Healing] spells with a range of touch can instead be cast with a range of 30' on willing targets, or as a 30' ray against unwilling targets. At 11th level the range increases to 60', and at 17th it increases to 120'.
Effortless Healing: as normal.
Cleanse Curse, Cleanse Conditions (Su): as Remove Curse and Panacea (SpC).
Maximized Cure Spells: all Cure spells are Maximized as the feat at no cost.
Cleanse Death (Su): as Revivify (SpC). Upgrades to Ressurection with Reverse Death at 16th, and finally to True Ressurection with New Life at 20th. The healer can use an earlier version if desired, but only has one use per day regardless of the number of options.

Healer Spell List
Note: the Healer's original spell list includes many spells at a lower level than normal, as an effective feature of the Healer, which I've marked for convenience. Additionally, I reduced the level of a few spells from other sources for them. These changes do not affect standard item pricing. (Some spells are also later than normal, but those are not marked).

Original/PHB List:


0th
Create Water
Cure Minor Wounds
Deathwatch*
Detect Poison
Light
Mending
Purify Food and Drink
Read Magic

1st
Bless Water
Cure Light Wounds
Goodberry
Obscuring Mist^^
Protection From Evil
Remove Fear
Remove Paralysis*
Sanctuary
Speak With Animals

2nd
Calm Emotions
Close Wounds^
Cure Moderate Wounds
Delay Poison
Gentle Repose
Gust of Wind^^
Lesser Restoration
Remove Blindness/Deafness
Remove Disease*
Shield Other^^
Status

3rd
Create Food and Water
Cure Serious Wounds
Daylight^^
Magic Circle Against Evil^^
Neutralize Poison*
Remove Curse
Restoration*
Water Breathing^^


4th
Cure Critical Wounds
Control Water^^
Death Ward
Dismissal^^
Freedom of Movement
Mass Cure Light Wounds*
Panacea^

5th
Atonement
Break Enchantment
Dispel Evil^^
Hallow^^
Mass Cure Moderate Wounds*
Raise Dead
Revivify
Stone to Flesh
True Seeing

6th
Banishment^^
Greater Restoration*
Heal
Heroes' Feast
Mass Cure Serious Wounds*
Regenerate*

7th
Mass Cure Critical Wounds*
Repulsion
Resurrection

8th
Antimagic Field^^
Discern Location
Holy Aura
Mass Heal*

9th
Foresight
Gate
True Ressurection

*reduced level
^from original list, use SpC versions.
^^additional PHB spell



New Healer Spells:

Spell Compendium



0th
Dawn
Naturewatch

1st
Delay Disease
Healthful Rest
Lesser Vigor
Resurgence
Summon Elysian Thrush
Wall of Smoke
Wood Wose

2nd
Cloudburst
Golden Barding
Healing Lorecall
Spawn Screen
Stabilize

3rd
Capricious Zephyr
Circle Dance
Lesser Planar Exchange*
Mass Resurgence
Mass Lesser Vigor
Vigor

4th
Delay Death
Favor of the Martyr
Holy Storm
Positive Energy Aura
Revenance
Sheltered Vitality


5th
Mass Sanctuary
Planar Exchange*
Rejuvenation Cocoon
Triadspell
Wall of Water

6th
Greater Vigor
Revive Outsider
Rejection
Vigorous Circle

7th
Fortunate Fate
Greater Planar Exchange*
Holy Star
Renewal Pact

8th
Death Pact
Mass Death Ward

9th
Heavenly Host

*reduced level




Other



0th
Candlelight (Ghostwalk WE)
Detect Disease (OA)

1st
Invest Light Protection (PHB2)
Healer's Vision (CSc)
Ease of Breath (Frost)
Cloak of Shade (Sand)
Locate Water (Sand)
Peacebond (City)

2nd
Ease Pain (BoED)
Estanna's Stew (BoED)
Remove Nausea (BoED)*
Body Ward (CCh)
Soul Ward (CCh)
Freedom of Breath (Sand)
Hydrate (Sand)

3rd
Heart's Ease (BoED)
Refreshment (BoED)
Invest Moderate Protection (PHB2)
Forest Voice (CCh)
Soul of Light (DrMa)
Insignia of Healing (RoDe)
Regroup (PHB2)
Renewed Vigor (PHB2)*
Insignia of Healing (RoDe)
Control Sand (Sand)
Storm Mote (Sand)
Air Breathing (Storm)


4th
Celestial Brilliance (BoED)
Greater Status (BoED)
Sustain (OA/BoED)
Channeled Divine Health (PHB2)
Healing Spirit (PHB2)
Seed of Life (CCh)

5th
Invest Heavy Protection (PHB2)
Magic Convalescence (PHB2)
Renewed Vigor (PHB2)
Darts of Life (CCh)
Healing Circle (CCh)
Hibernate (Frost)

6th


7th
Bastion of Good (BoED)
Rejuvenating Light (CCh)

8th
Spread of Contentment (BoED)
Flashflood (Sand)
Surelife (Sand)
Summon Aspect of Bahamut (RoDr)

9th
Sublime Revelry (BoED)


*reduced level




Notes:
The original Healer spell list is extremely short, with the mass cures and many status removal spells a level early, but hardly anything at high levels and no "offense" to speak of aside from cure/heal against undead, and it was missing a few PHB spells that should have been there in order to properly fill the "Cleric" role.

The expanded healer list gives them access to essentially all of the healing, status removal, and status prevention spells, with only a couple exceptions. Healers now command some of the gentler wind, water, and sand spells, culminating in their most powerful direct attack with Flashflood. Most uniquely they gain early access to the Planar Exchange line, which allows them to call an avatar of good to take their place- however, when using Planar Exchange many of the healer's most important spells (such as Close Wounds, Delay Death, and Revivify) cannot possibly be delivered in time, so it must be used judiciously.

The new healer is closer to a Dragon Quest cleric/Final Fantasy white mage/summoner, focusing on hp and status effects but also with a number of odd, specific, or restricted offensive options and summoning effects.

And, done. Figured out a trick for the tables which made the spell list easy (leave out the header and just make one row with two cells that become nice easy columns). If someone wants a proper thread for discussion on Homebrew I'll move it over there, otherwise consider it just a quick fix suggestion since I don't really have any changes I intend, advice to ask, or even much to explain that isn't already there.

The final result here is intended to be a better healer than a similar cleric build, if for no reason other than not needing to buy the individual feats that make a healing build. However, if one finds it being a bit too effective in some way, then naturally you can just trim it back to match whatever power level you want from healer builds. For example, it may be intended that the Healer's early access to status removal is meant as a replacement to the Cleric's expected preventative measures, and thus having both might make the party too resilient, so striking those added spells would be entirely reasonable.



Make them an actual White Mage who gets various buff spells?
Honestly, I don't remember buff spells being of much note in Final Fantasy, aside from Haste and Reflect. Haste is pretty firmly an arcane effect in DnD*, as is Spell Turning, which is personal only. You could put Righteous Wrath of the Faithful and Spell Resistance on the Healer's list as approximations though.

*Righteous Wrath of the Faithful is on my naughty list of broken "updates," as SpC reduced it from 7th level and required shared faith for the extra attack and attack+damage buffs (in Complete Divine), to 5th level and everyone gets the whole thing regardless of deity. This is also why the Purification domain has it at a ridiculous 2 levels "late," because the Purifcation domain (also from Complete Divine) had it at the normal level, and they didn't fix the domain when they "fixed" the spell.

[Bavarian itP]

I have an account (not that it takes all that much to have one...), but not the necessary familiarity to properly fix it.
For that matter, it looks like the last guy made 'companion' edits to the Cleric and Favored Soul write-ups, and all three classes reference the others, so those would need to be tweaked as well.


Perhaps a note in the discussion would do?

[Troacctid]

Y'all were taking too long so I just went and changed it.

[Khedrac]

What spells would you consider part of the right balance?

And what else could healers be doing to head off any potential boredom?

These both seem like good ideas, thanks.

The balance so depends on the party. For a starting party I think aim more for cure X wounds - they are not as efficient, but emergency healing tends to be more important. With the DMPC at around 12th level I did take spontaneous healer as a feat - that way I didn't take any of the top two levels of cure X wounds so I could swap into them as needed, I then took only 1 or 2 per level of the lower levels ones (and 0 cure light wounds because wand). I think the answer on balance is "try and see what works for your party".

Other things to head off boredom? Bring popcorn.

[Heliomance]

Make them an actual White Mage who gets various buff spells?

The thing that makes FF White Mages worthwhile is that in-combat healing is capable of keeping up with damage taken, most of the time. Cure, Cura, and Curaga will generally fully restore the HP of any party member at the level when you learn them - indeed, Cura and Curaga are frequently overkill for some time after you learn them, and even the lowly Cure can continue to be at least somewhat useful into the endgame.

In D&D, that's not the case until you have access to Heal, and then that's a 6th level spell slot you're throwing at restoring the HP of one person. Also, compare Regen to the Vigor line of spells. It's a fundamental difference in design between the two games - in D&D, the best way to "heal" your party in combat is to prevent them taking damage in the first place by killing the enemy faster. Healing is very much an after-the-battle activity.

[Fizban]

In D&D, that's not the case until you have access to Heal,
People say this all the time, and you know what? Challenge accepted. Hit point damage on standard monsters is not nearly as horrific as people think.

1st level, Cure Light: 1d8+1= 5.5hp, 7.5 hp with Augment Healing. Frontline AC 16.

Kobold 25% chance of 2.5, 40% chance of 1, x3 Kobolds, 1.2 to 1.875 damage per round.
Goblin 35% chance of 3.5, 40% chance of 2.5, x2 Goblins, 2 to 2.45 damage per round.
Wolf 40% chance of 3.5, on hit ~50% chance of a 60% chance of another 3.5, 2.45 damage per round.
Lizardfolk 35% of 2.5 twice and 25% chance of 2.5, 2.375 damage per round (full natural weapons)
Darkmantle 45% of 6.5 and ~50% chance of 6.5 again immediately (if you take the harsh reading of constrict*), 2.95 to 4.3875.

*Where the constrict wording means that landing the roll from Improved Grab immediately deals constrict damage.

That's pretty representative of basic attack routines. The wolf and lizardfolk are tough enough to take multiple hits, but are outnumbered 4 to 1, Darkmantle has miss chance but the party gets a warning round from Darkness. What's the big standout? Why people who actually run Orcs with expensive two-handed martial weapons (falcions in the MM) at formula 1/2 CR, with 45%*9= 4.05 per round, not counting crits, and other char-op'd verisons of 1 HD humanoids. Considering the actual damage of most of those attacks is less than 1d8+1, and none of them are guaranteed hits, there's almost no way that healing could not keep up with damage, even without Augment Healing. You have 2 Cure Lights plus a domain spell, and very credible chances of finishing a fight and stumbling home even if everyone's at 1hp.

That was more math than I wanted to do, but let's press on.

3rd level, Cure 1d8+3 and 2d8+3, or 1d8+5 and 2d8+7 with Augment, effective 1d8+8 and 2d8+10 with Augment and Imbued Healing [Healing]. Frontline AC, oh say, 18 (that's banded mail and heavy shield, not even full plate).

Dire Wolf, 70% of 14.5 damage, say 75% of trip for the AoO on stand, call it 10 to 25 per round. Stay down and you won't get AoO'd), just about the strongest single attack. Orges have a javelin for +1/1d8+5, but are weaker in melee unless you invite an AoO.
Dire Ape, 50% 9.5 twice, 25% 16 from rend, and 30% 7.5. 50% of the time one claw misses and you get 7-ish, 25% of the time you get rended for 35. Keep moving and you only get 9.5 total from claw and AoO claw. This is about the strongest standing full attack.
Ankheg's acid spit vs reflex, call it 10 damage.
Locust Swarm, 7 per round unless you have DR.

Base cleric has 7.5 and 12 point cures, two high and three low. Not gonna lie, they'd have a hard time keeping up with the stars of MM1 offense at this level. At least, if the people being attacked are "walking into it" by eating AoOs from the Dire Wolf, standing there to get rent by the Dire Ape, running straight at the Ogre, or otherwise dumping their AC and refusing to engage foes properly.

Nah, the most threatening CR 3 I'm seeing is the Centaur, with a high str large composite bow, superior speed, and saves that laugh at the idea brutes auto-fail against Sleep, that's an enemy that actually deserves the "but it'll shoooooot uuuuus" complaint, and they've got 11 damage with that. Of course they're also listed as Good guys, and ranged attacks have to go through cover and even prone bonus if you don't just stand there and take it, and they have half the hp of the other foes here. By now the complaints of "they'll just go around" are probably also echoing through the halls, to which I say- yeah, already ran that. Ogre vs. Basic Tactical Positioning results in a slight chance of 10-Con Wizard death via nat 20 crit, meanwhile the rest of the party does the job, assuming the Wizard didn't drop it with a save or lose.

Oh, right, the damage. Well it looks like we've got about 10 per round if you're not walking into it, vs Cure values of 7.5 and 12. That's adjusted to average though, the individual rounds are 14-18-35. And with Augment those cures go up to 9.5 and 16, enough to match all but the Dire Ape's rend. If you're not getting in any ranged attacks or disabling then you're probably going to burn through those cures fast, sure. But those damage kings are big obvious creatures which shouldn't be getting the drop on you- if they do, they're worth extra xp due to their tactical advantage, and the DM should not be expecting you to power through when you run low on resources early on thanks to a jacked up encounter. And if you're fighting char-op'd classed NPCs or monsters, then you should never expect standard math to work out. A pair of CR 1 foes from the previous list won't match the damage on these CR 3s either.

Basic cures aren't enough to gain ground, but the damage the frontline is taking each round will be low enough that their hit points will be dropping slowly enough that you have the time to win, exactly as intended. Optimized cures start to set MM1 monsters back more than a turn- Augmented Imbued Close Wounds is effective 1d4+8, or 10.5 points as an immediate action, Augmented Stabilize is 5 per person between fights, or 8 if you have Imbue and you're fighting undead or constructs such that you can use it in battle, as a swift action. Furthermore, access to Touch of Healing and/or cash for Cure Light wands and/or Healing Belts mean that the concept of non-combat healing actually exists, and your personal slots can be saved for in-combat healing.

Okay, let's hit CR 5.

5th level, Basic Cures: 9.5, 14, and 18.5, Augmented Cures: 11.5, 18, and 24.5, Augmented Imbued Cures: effective 16.5, 23, and 29.5. Frontline AC ought to be 22 by this point with just +1 plate and +1 shield.


Dire Lion: pounce for 60% twice on 10.5 and 6.5, 30% 7.5, around 22 points on the charge, less after that if they actually grapple you (that's right, when you have friends it's safer to hug the kitty).
Giant Constrictor: 60% for 14.5 or 29 with harsh constrict, then 29 per round, surprisingly powerful considering how most people dismiss snakes.
Large Fire or Earth Elemental: 55% twice for 16 points.
6-Headed Hydra: the much vaunted. . . 35% x6 bites for 8.5 each, about 18 points.
Green Hag: 55% for 10.5 twice, 35% 6.5, but rend means you've got 55% of 10-16 and about 30% of like 38. While grappling the rakes boost it to about 20 per round (whoops, that's actually the CR 6 Annis hag, Green Hags have only 1d4+4, threatening with their Su strength damage)
Troll: 40% on 9.5 claws and 15% 6.5 bite, so 40% of 10-ish and 16% chance of a rend round for 35, it's just a Dire Ape with regeneration.
Sample Red Dragon Raaze (very young, no multiattack): 65%*12, 40%*(4.5+5.5+11.5), total 16.4 in full attack, or 22 breath. Increase to 19.6 with Multiattack.


Damage per round from CR 5 foes here isn't much higher than it was for CR 3. Instead it's about the special abilities, the same damage with pounce, or extra defenses, or status effects. Or you could be fighting two CR 3s, which for pure hp damage is probably the stronger option, good 'ol bulk Dire Wolves. Even so basic cures are keeping up with single foe damage outside of rend chances and harsh constrict, and optimized cures can match even those, while the chance of a pair of Dire Apes landing a double rend is only 12% at this AC. A round of damage can range from zero, to a single hit for around 10 that's worth a cure light, to a pair of hits worth a cure moderate or serious, to a blowout that is still mostly offset by a cure serious. Against area attacks, with Races of Destiny, Insignia of Healing can hit the whole party for 9.5, 15.5, or 21.5 depending on base/Augment/Augment+Imbue.


Of course, I've done 1/3/5 for convenience, which leave out the even levels where you don't have the highest tier of spells. To which I might respond that all other caster supremacy arguments assume the odd levels, but yeah, even levels are worse. Brown Bears are terrible on either side of the screen, and are officially CR 4, when all you have is Cure Moderate vs double d8+8's, and single attack CR 2s like a Bison, Crocodile, or Thoqqua take more than a single Cure Light to offset. But that's still the thing, those CR 2 attacks won't drop a level 2 frontliner even when they hit thanks to max hp on the first die and likely con bonus. And with Augment and Imbue you've actually got 14 (1d8+4+2+4 temp, effective 14.5), so for the healer build even levels aren't that bad either- and they get double mileage out of those feats if they Close Wounds on the same turn. And I've stopped at 5th because it's already been two hours, so naturally there's probably a spike on 7th or 9th or something.

Or we can just go with anecdotes. I made a simple healer for the party when I ran Red Hand of Doom, upgrading every NPC, replacing basic Ogres with Skullcrushers, etc. And I found it extremely hard to threaten them with anything short of a Maximized Breath effective save or die, until the non-casting player got them killed by pressing forward when the guy handling the healer said they needed to pull back.

[Troacctid]

See, the flip side of enemies dealing only small amounts of damage, though, is it means you're not in any serious danger after taking one or two hits, because it'll take three more rounds before they'll even have a shot at dropping you. So what's the point of healing now? The combat might not even last that long, in which case you effectively wasted your turn and a valuable spell slot spinning your wheels, topping off someone who didn't need it. And if it does go that long, then you're going to end up getting more equity out of a buff spell, since it applies its bonus over multiple turns, gaining value over time. Furthermore, once an ally drops below half HP, you can start using Touch of Healing instead, which saves resources.

Using a healing effect to negate an enemy's turn is good action economy when you're four fighting one, but it also has a tendency to chew through spell slots like a gray ooze through a hot butter knife, leaving you with fewer resources for whatever greater dangers might be lurking later in the day—unless you have, like, a staff, or a healing nodules graft, or something like that that gives you tons of extra ammo. So, like, it can be good sometimes, but using it as your primary strategy is kinda sketchy IMO. I don't think you need to be that risk-averse.

It also hurts that you need to be right up there next to the tank to touch them, so if the monster decides it would rather target the squishy medic in leather armor and no shield, then suddenly their DPR goes up and your strategy becomes even less efficient.

[Blackhawk748]

I'm someone who generally defends the healer role and I've gotta agree. Having healing be your go to strategy isn't a good idea. The best hearler I've had in a party was when one of my PCs played a Merciful Fate cleric. He traded a bunch of stuff to cast Conjuration Healing spells at one spell level lower and at an increased caster level. He even had Reach and Chain spell with DMM to maximise effectiveness.

All in all it worked ok and I was happy he was there, but most often his slots went to team buffs like Bless

[Fizban]

Well, sure, your go-to strategy isn't supposed to be "wait until someone's hurt then immediately heal." You can strategize casting buffs to try and get more mileage out of your spells than healing, after 5th or so you've got immunity buffs that need to be deployed against certain monsters along with more offensive options to juggle, and you've always got your mace and crossbow. 3.0 buffed clerics, and 3.5 buffed them even more, so that they could do things other than heal-bot. But the math still holds that heal-botting even with PHB spells will buy more hits and spells for the fighter, rogue, and wizard, as long as they're actually using the meatshield as a meatshield. Cure spells being spontaneous this is an option that's always available, so it shouldn't be the best option, just good enough, and it is.

Granted, you put the Minis Healer in the same exact situation, and the party does become less effective- due to the narrowing of the front line, not a reduction in healing capabilty. The Healer heals better than the Cleric, but the Cleric's heavy armor and shield mean that when I say frontline is AC X, that includes the cleric, for a frontline width of two. If you include frontline AC as part of the healer's job thanks to the 3.5 Cleric (I normally refer to the party role as "Cleric" rather than healer after all), then I do agree that the Healer is worse at being a "Cleric," forcing the party to rely more on terrain to maintain proper formation.