When did everyone become so powerful?

[cleanrunner]

Never played Dnd, but there was a time the OOTS ran away from goblins and ogres - now they're "one"-shotting frost giants and vampires. Same with Team Evil: X and RC were pretty powerful before, but now they're some of the strongest characters in the story.

Which events gave them so much XP?

On a side note, if V were to reach level 17 would zhe be able to defeat RC? I remember somewhere being mentioned that Blackwing's ioun stone gave hir a level 17 caster level.

[hamishspence]

Never played Dnd, but there was a time the OOTS ran away from goblins and ogres - now they're "one"-shotting frost giants and vampires. Same with Team Evil: X and RC were pretty powerful before, but now they're some of the strongest characters in the story.

Which events gave them so much XP?

Xykon was epic level before he even met The Order for the first time:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html

[Peelee]

The order became more powerful slowly though the course of the last one thousand one hundred and fifty comics. It was a pretty steady progression, IMO.

[cleanrunner]

The order became more powerful slowly though the course of the last one thousand one hundred and fifty comics. It was a pretty steady progression, IMO.

Yeah, I was just wondering which specific events could give them a huge dump of it. Like, does Roy get any from the godsmoot, even if he didn't completely win against Durkon*?

I guess I'm trying to ask which events solidified the character (villains included) as the badasses they currently are

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, I was just wondering which specific events could give them a huge dump of it. Like, does Roy get any from the godsmoot, even if he didn't completely win against Durkon*?

I guess I'm trying to ask which events solidified the character (villains included) as the badasses they currently are

Why does it need to be a specific event? Real experience is gained gradually, why would it be different?

[hroþila]

Yeah, I was just wondering which specific events could give them a huge dump of it. Like, does Roy get any from the godsmoot, even if he didn't completely win against Durkon*?

I guess I'm trying to ask which events solidified the character (villains included) as the badasses they currently are
No huge dumps, or no huger than would be expected at any rate. It's been a constant trickle. When exactly XP should be doled out varies from one DM to another, but personally I would indeed grant XP to Roy and Belkar for their role in the Godsmoot.

(Also, I'm going to take this chance to mention that I find the way the Geekery thread most unsatisfactory in that it only records characters as they are now. I'd like their progression to be reflected too)

[TRH]

Depending on the circumstances, V could defeat Redcloak right now. One failed save against Prismatic Spray and he's dead/petrified/sent to another plane/insane. They already bested Tarquin and Laurin, who are even higher level than RC. Still, they probably won't, since I don't see what it'd add to the story.

[Concept]

I also feel it was very gradual. If you think there was any single large jump in power, you're going to have to narrow down a before and after. Otherwise, it's a normal progression for a game (D&D) where players typically go from weaklings to challenging gods over the span of a career.

Is that progression normal and realistic? Not really. But it's typical for most gaming systems, and it fits well here. There was no single event where this power jump happened.

The only anomalous event was xykon being defeated by the gate-mcguffin in the first arc, when any one of the main bad-guys could have easily defeated the entire OOTS. But that was just a fluke, brought about by a world-shatteringly powerful artifact, and by accident.

[The Pilgrim]

Some of the instances were the Order got a lot of XP, that I remember:

1) Dungeon Crawling Fools:
- Defeating a Chimera
- Defeating the Linear Guild
- Defeating an epic level Lich

2) Paladin Blues:
- Defeating the Forest Thieves
- Defeating the Swamp Hag
- Defeating the Young Black Dragon
- Rescuing the Dirt Farmer from the Ogre Tribe
- Saving the King of Nowhere from an assasination plot (not many combat XP, but definitely some roleplaying XP)

3) War and XP:
- Overcoming the Trials of the Oracle
- Defeating the Linear Guild at Cliffport
- Defeating the Linear Guild at Azure City
- Defeating Miko after Shojo's assasination
- During the Battle for Azure City, probably didn't get any XP from killing hobgoblins, but would have for some stronger enemies, like the Titanium Elementals or the Three Phony Xykons

4) Don't Split the Party:
- Defending the Fleet from countless raiding parties
- Defeating a Colossal Devil
- Fighting Tsukiko's Undead Strike Force countless times
- Raiding the Golem's Castle
- Defeating the Thieves' Guild
- Raiding the Golem's Castle Again

5) Blood Runs in the Family
- Defending the Caravan from the Bugs
- Defeating a Colossal Sand Worm
- Defeating the Linear Guild at Bleedingham
- Defeating the Linear Guild at the Pyramid
- Defeating a Silicon Elemental
- Defeating Tarquin's Army, Miron, Laurin, and Tarquin himself

[zimmerwald1915]

No huge dumps, or no huger than would be expected at any rate. It's been a constant trickle. When exactly XP should be doled out varies from one DM to another, but personally I would indeed grant XP to Roy and Belkar for their role in the Godsmoot.

(Also, I'm going to take this chance to mention that I find the way the Geekery thread most unsatisfactory in that it only records characters as they are now. I'd like their progression to be reflected too)
We actually do record the characters' level progression, as far as it can be confirmed. The information is behind the FAQ spoiler tag.

As to the OP, the Order transitioned from being "mid-level" to "high-level" over the course of Don't Split the Party and Blood Runs in the Family.

[Synesthesy]

Let's say that this isn't Dragon Ball Z (there was even a reference to this in one strip, when Roy died and went to the afterlife waiting to be resurrected just like Goku) so we don't have a big training montage everytime a character grow.

However, there are some focus point, when the party get stronger all at once:

1) After defeating Xykon the first time, they didn't have the need to run from every big number of enemy.
2) Roy become stronger after learning the secret move in the afterlife (just like Goku!), he gets a milestone when his sword is reforged as a starmetal one, and when he discovered the true power of his sword against Greg.
2) Elan gets his milestone after meeting Julio and becoming a dashing swordman.
3) Hailey gets her after defeating the Thieves Guild and her past (with a new bow), and after defeating Crystal Golem and buying the wands.
4) Durkon is still waiting for his evolution, I bet it will happen soon
5) V grows after the Darth V arc, obviously. But as she is one of the strongest character, her growth seems more linear. However, the last duel against Z shows all her power.
6) Belkar's milestone is after the removal of the curse obviously, and I would add after Durkon's self sacrifice that opens his eyes a little. In the last fight against the vampires, Belkar was stronger (and cooler) then ever.
7) Redcloak's milestone are right before the battle of Azure City (before of that, we never see him really fighting) and after losing his eye.

[monomer]

The biggest single power bumps should be whenever the casters get access to next level spells. For example when V hit Lvl 15, they got at least two 8th Lvl spell slots (one regular, one specialization, and possibly one more from intelligence score), which is pretty big.

As far as steady progression goes, though, Strip 935 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html)really shows what the accumulation of spells slots can do for a caster, which they slowly gain over time. At lower levels, Wizards have to be mindful of how many spells they have left, but here, V is basically throwing spells away since wizards just get so many spell slots over their natural level progression.

[KorvinStarmast]

When did everyone become so powerful? Strip by strip, for over a thousand strips, thanks to awesome role play (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0125.html).

[deuterio12]

Xykon was epic level before he even met The Order for the first time:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html

Which makes even less sense how his minions were so puny or how Roy could tear off Xykon's head with a singe punch. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html)

In particular when in the prequel book Xykon was shrugging off direct melee hits from a freaking giant dragon!

Also remember when Redcloak had literally nothing better to do than try to catch roaches? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html) Nowadays he's all "3D chess mastermind plotting over decades and pulling the strings of everybody around him all along". Guess those roaches were actually disguised gods or epic eldritch roaches.

[georgie_leech]

Which makes even less sense how his minions were so puny or how Roy could tear off Xykon's head with a singe punch. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html)

In particular when in the prequel book Xykon was shrugging off direct melee hits from a freaking giant dragon!

Also remember when Redcloak had literally nothing better to do than try to catch roaches? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html) Nowadays he's all "3D chess mastermind plotting over decades and pulling the strings of everybody around him all along". Guess those roaches were actually disguised gods or epic eldritch roaches.

A single lucky hit, Xykon not giving enough of a crap about the merely middling leveled adventurers to defend himself properly, and Redcloak didn't need to be all chessmaster-y when the only major speaking roles were himself and Xykon (the MitD, while hilarious, exercised very little agency at the time), and Xykon was already doing the thing Redcloak wanted him to do.

[Pablo360]

A single lucky hit, Xykon not giving enough of a crap about the merely middling leveled adventurers to defend himself properly, and Redcloak didn't need to be all chessmaster-y when the only major speaking roles were himself and Xykon (the MitD, while hilarious, exercised very little agency at the time), and Xykon was already doing the thing Redcloak wanted him to do.

Plus, if the deliberately-vague mechanics of the OOTS universe include crit tables, it's possible Xykon just rolled low.

[deuterio12]

A single lucky hit, Xykon not giving enough of a crap about the merely middling leveled adventurers to defend himself properly,

Undead so immune to criticals, Roy couldn't get lucky, plus Xykon didn't bother defending against the giant dragon either, he just stood there, took a full attack to the skull and said something like "hehe it tickles".



and Redcloak didn't need to be all chessmaster-y when the only major speaking roles were himself and Xykon (the MitD, while hilarious, exercised very little agency at the time), and Xykon was already doing the thing Redcloak wanted him to do.

Xykon was doing what Redcloak wanted where exactly? Killing goblins out of boredoom (in that very same strip) while the OotS kept creeping in closer and closer until team Evil ended up losing another gate?

[georgie_leech]

Undead so immune to criticals, Roy couldn't get lucky, plus Xykon didn't bother defending against the giant dragon either, he just stood there, took a full attack to the skull and said something like "hehe it tickles".



Xykon was doing what Redcloak wanted where exactly? Killing goblins out of boredoom (in that very same strip) while the OotS kept creeping in closer and closer until team Evil ended up losing another gate?

Crits also don't generally decapitate without a Vorpal Sword and a Nat 20, so I'm not sure what the mechanics of Critical hots have to do with that. And the part where Xykon was trying to access the Gate that he still believes will make every sacrifice worthwhile. What exactly is he supposed to meddle with here? Try to get Xykon to go mucking with the Runes himself?

[Rynjin]

Depending on the circumstances, V could defeat Redcloak right now. One failed save against Prismatic Spray and he's dead/petrified/sent to another plane/insane. They already bested Tarquin and Laurin, who are even higher level than RC. Still, they probably won't, since I don't see what it'd add to the story.

Undead are immune to anything requiring a Fort save unless it also affects objects. Prismatic Spray explicitly only affects "Creatures in the area of the spell".

Xykon would be randomly affected by 1 of 7 effects (2 of 7 if an 8 is rolled), of which 4 he is immune to (poison, petrify, Electric damage, as Liches are immune to electricity, and Insanity, as undead are immune to Mind Affecting effects as well), and barely inconvenienced by 2 (Fire and Acid damage).

This leaves "sent to another plane" as the only option with a real, concrete effect on the fight (which is he needs to burn 2 spells [Plane Shift and Teleport] to get back into the fight).

Prismatic Spray is an astoundingly bad spell to use against Xykon.

[deuterio12]

Crits also don't generally decapitate without a Vorpal Sword and a Nat 20, so I'm not sure what the mechanics of Critical hots have to do with that.


They have to do that one of Roy's punch somehow hits harder than giant dragons at the start of the story.

Dunno why Roy bothered getting a new sword really. In particular when later on Roy slashes Xykon multiple times with a superior blade and that just scratches the lich. Roy forgot his fists are his ultimate weapon and paid with his life for it.

Still waiting for Roy to just go all one-punch-man in some other boss.



And the part where Xykon was trying to access the Gate that he still believes will make every sacrifice worthwhile. What exactly is he supposed to meddle with here? Try to get Xykon to go mucking with the Runes himself?

More like try to manipulate Xykon to just cast Mass Hold Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) at the OotS when they enter the gate room instead of letting them just charge in and get another gate destroyed.

[Rrmcklin]

Also remember when Redcloak had literally nothing better to do than try to catch roaches? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html) Nowadays he's all "3D chess mastermind plotting over decades and pulling the strings of everybody around him all along". Guess those roaches were actually disguised gods or epic eldritch roaches.

I'll just say that Redcloak likes to think that's what he's doing, but it remains to be seen how true it is. I'm betting on "not very".

[martianmister]

Q: In which comic do the characters demonstrate having leveled?



Level
:roy:
:belkar:
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/DurkonVampire_zps6711c6b8.png
:elan:
:haley:
:vaarsuvius:


9
12
12
12
12
12
12


10
124
125
124
124
124
124


11
???
???
201
???
???
186


12
251
249
???
382
477
220


13
???, 665
???
556
392
511
397


14
485, 862
???
859
647
???
627


15
-
860
-
860
648
716


16
-
-
-
-
990
935


From Class and Level Geekery thread's FAQ.

[Goblin_Priest]

Undead are immune to anything requiring a Fort save unless it also affects objects. Prismatic Spray explicitly only affects "Creatures in the area of the spell".

Xykon would be randomly affected by 1 of 7 effects (2 of 7 if an 8 is rolled), of which 4 he is immune to (poison, petrify, Electric damage, as Liches are immune to electricity, and Insanity, as undead are immune to Mind Affecting effects as well), and barely inconvenienced by 2 (Fire and Acid damage).

This leaves "sent to another plane" as the only option with a real, concrete effect on the fight (which is he needs to burn 2 spells [Plane Shift and Teleport] to get back into the fight).

Prismatic Spray is an astoundingly bad spell to use against Xykon.

Prismatic spray doesn't affect objects, thus, doesn't affect undead, afaik.

[Peelee]

Undead are immune to anything requiring a Fort save unless it also affects objects. Prismatic Spray explicitly only affects "Creatures in the area of the spell".

Xykon would be randomly affected by 1 of 7 effects (2 of 7 if an 8 is rolled), of which 4 he is immune to (poison, petrify, Electric damage, as Liches are immune to electricity, and Insanity, as undead are immune to Mind Affecting effects as well), and barely inconvenienced by 2 (Fire and Acid damage).

This leaves "sent to another plane" as the only option with a real, concrete effect on the fight (which is he needs to burn 2 spells [Plane Shift and Teleport] to get back into the fight).

Prismatic Spray is an astoundingly bad spell to use against Xykon.

TRH was talking about Redcloak though.

[hamishspence]

Prismatic spray doesn't affect objects, thus, doesn't affect undead, afaik.

The "does not affect objects" thing is specifically for spells, effects, etc that require a Fortitude save.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType

Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).

The energy components of the spell require Reflex saves - so should work on undead:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticSpray.htm

[zimmerwald1915]

The "does not affect objects" thing is specifically for spells that require a Fortitude save.


The energy components of the spell require Reflex saves - so should work on undead:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticSpray.htm
Liches are immune to electricity, Xykon has a magic item of fire immunity (or similar), and 40 acid damage is negligable at his level even without a Con score. Prismatic spray remains a terrible spell to use against him.

[Peelee]

Which is good, since nobody suggested it.

[zimmerwald1915]

Which is good, since nobody suggested it.
Hamish tried to save the spell against Xykon to an extent.

But TRH's broader point was that Vaarsuvius could defeat Redcloak with a single spell. . . well, color me skeptical. We were shown just that in Girard's phantasm, and everyone picked up on the fact that it wouldn't work. As to prismatic spray specifically, Redcloak has sky-high Fort and Will saves, the energy damage is piddling and easily healed, and Redcloak gets resist energy and protection from energy on his spell list. Vaarsuvius has pointed out, in the fight with the frost giants, the futility of attacking clerics with energy damage.

[hamishspence]

Interestingly, it has been used against him once - in Start of Darkness. There, it didn't work because the comic was black-and-white - but the fact that it can only do minimal damage to him is worth remembering.

It's much more of a threat to Redcloak though - but that isn't saying much - it's still not a great spell.

[Peelee]

Hamish tried to save the spell against Xykon to an extent.

But TRH's broader point was that Vaarsuvius could defeat Redcloak with a single spell. . . well, color me skeptical.

Imean, he absolutely could with Prismatic Spray. Or quite possibly Disintegrate. Both could well defeat Redcloak with a single casting. Now, if you want to argue that they narratively won't, no argument here - the Giant openly loves Disintegrate because of how swingy it is, and Prismatic Spray is no less swingy.

TRH's broader point was to answer cleanrunner's question of "could V defeat Redcloak if V hit 17th level?" To which the answer was, "V could potentially defeat Redcloak now, but it most likely won't happen."

[Goblin_Priest]

Fair catch on Prismatic Spray not being a fort save for all effects, I hadn't looked it up.

Redcloak is higher level than V. And can cast all kinds of protection spells. The odds of him failing his save and dying 1 shot are fairly slim, all in all.

That said, the odds of the Order losing the fight against the vampires was also, imo, extremely low. But the villains had plot armor to help them overcome the odds.

Could the plot favor V into defeating Redcloak with a save-or-die? Maybe. Would it? Unlikely. That wouldn't exactly make for a very satisfying story.

[AutomatedTeller]

Really, the only thing that's weird is that the order used to run from goblins and considered ogres dangerous. I mean, they defeated an epic lich fairly early.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Really, the only thing that's weird is that the order used to run from goblins and considered ogres dangerous. I mean, they defeated an epic lich fairly early.

By lucking out to pushing him into a rune inscribed on a wall that they then blew up. A lucky stroke that they cannot repeat again.

Grey Wolf

[AutomatedTeller]

By lucking out to pushing him into a rune inscribed on a wall that they then blew up. A lucky stroke that they cannot repeat again.

Grey Wolf


Well, yes. I'm just saying that they were pretty powerful even then - parties generally stop running from golins around level 2 or 3, unless they are super organized ambush goblins like Gygax's legendary kobolds.

[georgie_leech]

Well, yes. I'm just saying that they were pretty powerful even then - parties generally stop running from golins around level 2 or 3, unless they are super organized ambush goblins like Gygax's legendary kobolds.

Tucker's. And considering how many of them seemed to have class levels, I suspect that there was a good deal of concern about attrition and the chance of one of them being especially dangerous.

[eilandesq]

It would have been silly if they had been running away from small groups of vanilla melee goblins--but as #11 demonstrated, at least some of the larger groups had fairly high level clerics associated with them (the one in #11 was at minimum 7th level, and unholy blight is a nasty spell).

[woweedd]

Tucker's. And considering how many of them seemed to have class levels, I suspect that there was a good deal of concern about attrition and the chance of one of them being especially dangerous.
Quantity has a quality all its own.

[Rynjin]

TRH was talking about Redcloak though.

Whoops, my bad.

[Snails]

Really, the only thing that's weird is that the order used to run from goblins and considered ogres dangerous. I mean, they defeated an epic lich fairly early.

At a superficial level, what occurred is highly improbably, but within the realm of possible. Basically, Roy rolled very high and Xykon rolled very low on something like three grapple contests in a row. And there was a dangerous magical artifact that could inflict 200 HP of damage sitting nearby.

But the reason it happened is not simply luck. To give the Order a very thin chance of victory seemed like an acceptably small price to pay for a plan that might well defeat the last defense of Dorukan's Gate.

While the comic does not spell every detail in an unambiguous fashion, it is strongly indicated that Xykon was "sandbagging" on purpose. The point of the fight was to fool the Order into thinking that they had a sufficient chance of winning to not immediately bug out, while desperate enough to, say, push a Rune because it looks important.

In other words, Xykon was letting the combat drag on, as part of a very purposeful ruse. The combat could have been over in 15 seconds. But all the heroes dead does not get the Rune pushed, does it?

[eilandesq]

At a superficial level, what occurred is highly improbably, but within the realm of possible. Basically, Roy rolled very high and Xykon rolled very low on something like three grapple contests in a row. And there was a dangerous magical artifact that could inflict 200 HP of damage sitting nearby.

But the reason it happened is not simply luck. To give the Order a very thin chance of victory seemed like an acceptably small price to pay for a plan that might well defeat the last defense of Dorukan's Gate.

While the comic does not spell every detail in an unambiguous fashion, it is strongly indicated that Xykon was "sandbagging" on purpose. The point of the fight was to fool the Order into thinking that they had a sufficient chance of winning to not immediately bug out, while desperate enough to, say, push a Rune because it looks important.

In other words, Xykon was letting the combat drag on, as part of a very purposeful ruse. The combat could have been over in 15 seconds. But all the heroes dead does not get the Rune pushed, does it?

Also, that battle was fought in the North--I strongly suspect that some deity from that pantheon quietly put a bit of special sauce in that punch and allowed Xykon's head to be knocked loose (a distraction, but which did nothing to actually disable Xykon) and distract him long enough for Roy to toss him into the Gate, blowing his body up.

[thereaper]

The Dorukan's Gate battle was Rule of Funny and Rule of Plot, guys, let it go.

[deuterio12]

At a superficial level, what occurred is highly improbably, but within the realm of possible. Basically, Roy rolled very high and Xykon rolled very low on something like three grapple contests in a row. And there was a dangerous magical artifact that could inflict 200 HP of damage sitting nearby.

But the reason it happened is not simply luck. To give the Order a very thin chance of victory seemed like an acceptably small price to pay for a plan that might well defeat the last defense of Dorukan's Gate.

While the comic does not spell every detail in an unambiguous fashion, it is strongly indicated that Xykon was "sandbagging" on purpose. The point of the fight was to fool the Order into thinking that they had a sufficient chance of winning to not immediately bug out, while desperate enough to, say, push a Rune because it looks important.

In other words, Xykon was letting the combat drag on, as part of a very purposeful ruse. The combat could have been over in 15 seconds. But all the heroes dead does not get the Rune pushed, does it?

Again, it's been confirmed that Xykon has disabling spells, plus his paralyzing touch thanks to being a lich.

And heck V himself gets paralyzed by the ghasts mid-combat, why risk one-punch-man getting close? What was 3d-chess mastermind decades-plotting Redcloack thinking just standing by and watch another gate be lost?

It would make quite a bit of sense if Redcloack was a newbie at the whole thing back then, but the prequel really ruins it by making Redcloak a veteran villain that's been gone through a lot yet seems to have learned absolutely nothing when the actual comic starts.

[Goblin_Priest]

It would make quite a bit of sense if Redcloack was a newbie at the whole thing back then, but the prequel really ruins it by making Redcloak a veteran villain that's been gone through a lot yet seems to have learned absolutely nothing when the actual comic starts.

He also speaks like a total moron without any self-worth whatsoever.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EarlyInstallmentWeirdness

[Peelee]

It would make quite a bit of sense if Redcloack was a newbie at the whole thing back then, but the prequel really ruins it by making Redcloak a veteran villain that's been gone through a lot yet seems to have learned absolutely nothing when the actual comic starts.


He also speaks like a total moron without any self-worth whatsoever.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EarlyInstallmentWeirdness

Yeah. There should have been something like Xykon totally and absolutely crushing Redcloak's spirit and instilling the fear of god in him at the end of a prequel, because then you could explain away DCF Redcloak's being nothing more than a meek servant as lasting only as long until he saw Xykon's body get destroyed and X himself restricted to his phylactery; letting Reddie know that Xykon can be beaten and restoring his fire.

If only such a scene existed! If only it was executed to explicitly show Redcloak being a wholly beaten goblin going into the Dungeon of Dorukan. What a missed opportunity, say I, that nothing like this happened during a prequel book that was wholly centered on Redcloak!

[Goblin_Priest]

Yeah. There should have been something like Xykon totally and absolutely crushing Redcloak's spirit and instilling the fear of god in him at the end of a prequel, because then you could explain away DCF Redcloak's being nothing more than a meek servant as lasting only as long until he saw Xykon's body get destroyed and X himself restricted to his phylactery; letting Reddie know that Xykon can be beaten and restoring his fire.

If only such a scene existed! If only it was executed to explicitly show Redcloak being a wholly beaten goblin going into the Dungeon of Dorukan. What a missed opportunity, say I, that nothing like this happened during a prequel book that was wholly centered on Redcloak!

No, I completely disagree with this.

I said he acted like a moron. He doesn't cower to Xykon, he even objects to his treatment of the goblins. And they have good evil laughs together (or at least, he does).

He is completely inconsistent with where SoD left off. But... what do you want, it was also written way earlier, as gags without a plot, and the character wasn't properly defined yet. He was just "random lackey", and that's how he acts and speaks like.

[Rrmcklin]

No, I completely disagree with this.

I said he acted like a moron. He doesn't cower to Xykon, he even objects to his treatment of the goblins. And they have good evil laughs together (or at least, he does).

He is completely inconsistent with where SoD left off. But... what do you want, it was also written way earlier, as gags without a plot, and the character wasn't properly defined yet. He was just "random lackey", and that's how he acts and speaks like.

I only recall one time (I of course could be forgetting some) where it seems like Redcloak might vocalize and objection to Xykon's treatment of goblins in Dorukan's dungeon, and he didn't actually say it after seeing Xykon make an example of some ogres or something.

As for the evil laughing, even now Redcloak is very much aware that he's one of the bad guys, and what that normally entails. No reason not to indulge a little.

I agree with your general point by the way, the two were written years apart and that everything won't line up is just something that needs to be accepted. But I don't think you gave examples that really work for that.

[Goblin_Priest]

I only recall one time (I of course could be forgetting some) where it seems like Redcloak might vocalize and objection to Xykon's treatment of goblins in Dorukan's dungeon, and he didn't actually say it after seeing Xykon make an example of some ogres or something.

As for the evil laughing, even now Redcloak is very much aware that he's one of the bad guys, and what that normally entails. No reason not to indulge a little.

I agree with your general point by the way, the two were written years apart and that everything won't line up is just something that needs to be accepted. But I don't think you gave examples that really work for that.

Well, reading up for quotes is tedious and long. XD

I don't mean the part about the contract where he had intended to negotiate better working conditions for the goblins, though even THAT is incoherent with where he left off in SoD. He knows Xykon doesn't give a damn about goblin lives, and that he enjoys killing them.

I was talking about the part where he tells Xykon to stop sending them to get zapped by the gate, surprised by the reasoning behind the action. By then, he already knows that killing random goblins is totally normal for Xykon. And that there's nothing he can do about it. And that he knows that Xykon knows that he knows there's nothing he can do about it. Queue: "Wow... you really don't understand him at all, do you?" And yet, in 97, he goes "But, if you've known all this time, why do you keep sending goblins to their death?" And 3 panels later he's having a good heartily evil laugh wit hthe gang.


:redcloak: Sir, I hardly think that's going to accomplish anything.
:xykon: You'd be surprised.
:redcloak: Sir, you actually said the words, "wink, wink." I mean -
...
:xykon: See? Never bet against the gullibility of the good guys, Redcloak.
:redcloak: I had no idea you had put so many skill ranks in Reverse Psychology.

I mean... REALLY? Add in the dumb faces he's making... Yes, the art was more primitive then, but the other goblins aren't just making all these emotionless dumb faces. You'd think that, as this gate story was HIS project, he'd be a little more... emotionally invested... in what's going on with the Order.

As he walks to the castle, at the end of SoD, he's full of regret. And the last emotions in the book were pretty much that: regret, hate, surrender. He acts as some random emotionless lackey in the dungeon, while he should be overwhelmed by emotions.

The heroes touching that gate would have finally freed him of his ghosts, he'd have been able to say "mission accomplished", there would have been a reason for it all to have happened. Instead, he's completely passive, and does very little, and basically just waits for commands from Xykon.


I'm not actually complaining, though. I mean, the villains weren't defined yet, neither for the author nor the readers. SoD was written way later, and the online strips are meant to be self-sufficient. Just sayin'.

[hamishspence]

And the last emotions in the book were pretty much that: regret, hate, surrender. He acts as some random emotionless lackey in the dungeon, while he should be overwhelmed by emotions.



I think The Giant actually stated in book commentary (possibly for Blood Runs In The Family?) that the reason Redcloak seems very subservient in Dungeon Crawling Fools but not later, is that the events of Start of Darkness crushed his ego and self-worth, etc. a bit - and it's only after leaving Dorukan's Dungeon that it's started to recover.

A point is made that he's already began to "grow a spine" in Paladin Blues:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html

[Goblin_Priest]

I think The Giant actually stated in book commentary (possibly for Blood Runs In The Family?) that the reason Redcloak seems very subservient in Dungeon Crawling Fools but not later, is that the events of Start of Darkness crushed his ego and self-worth, etc. a bit - and it's only after leaving Dorukan's Dungeon that it's started to recover.

A point is made that he's already began to "grow a spine" in Paladin Blues:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html

Sure, I'm willing to handwave it as such.

It's not really convincing per say, but I got nothing better to offer to reconcile his attitude and how I would expect him to be.

[georgie_leech]

Sure, I'm willing to handwave it as such.

It's not really convincing per say, but I got nothing better to offer to reconcile his attitude and how I would expect him to be.

You haven't seen someone try to cope with extreme emotions by becoming a doormat before? :smallconfused:

[littlebum2002]

The heroes touching that gate would have finally freed him of his ghosts, he'd have been able to say "mission accomplished",

How would destroying Xykon have accomplished Redcloak's mission of blackmailing the gods?

[Synesthesy]

I don't see anything wrong: Redcloak was broken, he had no force to fight Xykon anymore. No mastermind chess because he just lost the most important battle of his life, that wasn't the battle for the Gates. He didn't have a reason to fight anymore, neither for his onw quest nor for team evil. And the fact that Xykon made it clear who was the boss means that making a plan, or using more strathegy, would have meat being pair to Xykon, and that wasn't the case.

As for the evil laught, it's even stranger that MitD did it, more then Reddie. But whatever, the evil laught is funny, I understand them.

[Fyraltari]

As for the evil laught, it's even stranger that MitD did it, more then Reddie. But whatever, the evil laught is funny, I understand them.

Peer pressure, man. He just wants to belong.

[Goblin_Priest]

You haven't seen someone try to cope with extreme emotions by becoming a doormat before? :smallconfused:

But he's not just a total doormat. If he was... then sure, a valid argument. But he's occasionally giddy, and overall just talks and acts dumb. Not like a dude who has been emotionally crushed, but as a dude with little backstory with said overlord. Which is what it was when it was written.


How would destroying Xykon have accomplished Redcloak's mission of blackmailing the gods?

That's not even what I say in what you quoted, though? If the heroes touch the gate, it liberates it, allowing Redcloak and Xykon to then do the ritual. He has only once been this close to finally achieving his mission, and arguably, one could say he really has never been this close to it, because Lirian's gate was lost before they took control of the field, whereas now they are in total control of the field.


I don't see anything wrong: Redcloak was broken, he had no force to fight Xykon anymore. No mastermind chess because he just lost the most important battle of his life, that wasn't the battle for the Gates. He didn't have a reason to fight anymore, neither for his onw quest nor for team evil. And the fact that Xykon made it clear who was the boss means that making a plan, or using more strathegy, would have meat being pair to Xykon, and that wasn't the case.

As for the evil laught, it's even stranger that MitD did it, more then Reddie. But whatever, the evil laught is funny, I understand them.

But he doesn't act broken. He goes from being a total suck-up, to having a good hearty evil laugh, to opposing Xykon on sending goblins to their death, to intending to negotiate with Xykon about contracts, etc. He is not at all consistent with a "broken" model. He is, however, consistent with the "dumb lackey" model.

And he always had a reason to fight. He fought for the Plan. He just sacrificed all he had FOR THE PLAN. He didn't go ahead and accept utter subservience because Xykon was better than him, or whatever, he did so because he was still completely dedicated to the plan, and both parties recognized that Xykon was an indispensable part of that. Were it not for the plan, Redcloak would not have obeyed.

I don't see how it'S stranger for MitD to do it. He's a naive immature monster that is easily impressionable. He wants friends and so he mimics those he has. Him making an evil laugh seems no weirder to me than him playing that game with... uh... mr. scruffy.

[hamishspence]

He didn't go ahead and accept utter subservience because Xykon was better than him, or whatever, he did so because he was still completely dedicated to the plan, and both parties recognized that Xykon was an indispensable part of that.

Xykon's lecture about what "real" evil is and how it's superior to "Evil but for a good cause" is relevant though.

[eilandesq]

I'd say that it's reasonable to conclude that Redcloak is completely insane by any reasonable standard, and that it's probably only his sense of purpose amplified by the Cloak that is keeping him remotely functional. That doesn't mean that he's *completely* unreachable, or that he can't react at times in ways that look somewhat normal--but looking for "normal" patterns for him as you would with Roy, Hinjo or even Xykon isn't going to produce reliable results--he's a pile of personal tragedy, intense personal regret, and influence by an ultra-powerful purpose focused artifact, all in one goblin soul that long would have departed to the afterlife without the effects of the Cloak.

[TRH]

Hamish tried to save the spell against Xykon to an extent.

But TRH's broader point was that Vaarsuvius could defeat Redcloak with a single spell. . . well, color me skeptical. We were shown just that in Girard's phantasm, and everyone picked up on the fact that it wouldn't work. As to prismatic spray specifically, Redcloak has sky-high Fort and Will saves, the energy damage is piddling and easily healed, and Redcloak gets resist energy and protection from energy on his spell list. Vaarsuvius has pointed out, in the fight with the frost giants, the futility of attacking clerics with energy damage.

By that logic, Hilgya had no business failing a save against Dominate with her high base will save and wisdom as a primary attribute. Natural 1s mean that such things can still happen if the narrative requires it. It won't happen, but only because the story doesn't require it - on the contrary, it probably relies on such a thing not happening.

Re: Redcloak in DCF: I'd say there were at least bits that were consistent with him being a doormat. Especially the exchange with the Ogres. You wouldn't normally expect him to have been so spooked by Xykon's kill and animate response - he's seen Xykon do far worse - but, well, if it reminds him of that other Animate Dead use that was still recent, then that might be a painful reminder. Of course, the subsequent 401k joke doesn't fit the condition of the goblin mooks in SOD, so that's a far bigger discontinuity. And the Speak with Dead joke was definitely Redcloak being dumber than you'd expect him to be at any other point. Overall, we should probably just disregard his character for most of that book.

That said, I am wondering now why Team Evil fled after Xykon was destroyed. Most of the Order was still down, so Redcloak alone would have had a fair chance of beating an unarmed Roy plus Belkar and Durkon, in which case they could have still salvaged that Gate. Conservatism, I guess.

[Zenzis]

Which makes even less sense how his minions were so puny or how Roy could tear off Xykon's head with a singe punch. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html)

In particular when in the prequel book Xykon was shrugging off direct melee hits from a freaking giant dragon!

Also remember when Redcloak had literally nothing better to do than try to catch roaches? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html) Nowadays he's all "3D chess mastermind plotting over decades and pulling the strings of everybody around him all along". Guess those roaches were actually disguised gods or epic eldritch roaches.

I don't think the fight required unreasonable luck, plot power, or gods or whatever.

Xykon is a skeleton. Most of what holds people together is soft tissue. There are not any rules that I am aware of for punching off a skeleton's head, so if one of my players wanted to do it I would have to make some up. There aren't any called shot rules in 3.5 that I am aware of, but I would probably make the attack roll a bit higher for aiming for a solid head shot. After that I would think a pretty trivial strength check for a fighter.

Even if we go with Xykon literally having his bones held together by negative energy, how strong that energy is is pretty up in the air.

As for Redcloak, most people tend to not be 100% archetypes all the time, but they appear that way in stories because the scenes we see them in are the ones that they fill their role in. In the early story, Redcloak's role archetype was dumb lackey. Later, his archetype was 5-D chess mastermind.

Presumably Lord Vetinari (from Discworld) does things like trimming his toenails or enjoying his favorite breakfast cereal. He probably even does more niche things like practicing his dance moves alone or fiddling with paperclips. If we primarily saw him during these scenes he would seem like a naive leader archetype. Since we primarily see him in scenes where he is manipulating people, executing elaborate plans, and stacking up contingencies, he appears to be a tactical/strategic/political genius.

[hamishspence]

the Speak with Dead joke was definitely Redcloak being dumber than you'd expect him to be at any other point.

Passively-aggressively pretending to be stupid because he knows it will annoy Xykon, and he can't rebel against him in any more overt way than that?

[TRH]

I don't think the fight required unreasonable luck, plot power, or gods or whatever.

Xykon is a skeleton. Most of what holds people together is soft tissue. There are not any rules that I am aware of for punching off a skeleton's head, so if one of my players wanted to do it I would have to make some up. There aren't any called shot rules in 3.5 that I am aware of, but I would probably make the attack roll a bit higher for aiming for a solid head shot. After that I would think a pretty trivial strength check for a fighter.

Even if we go with Xykon literally having his bones held together by negative energy, how strong that energy is is pretty up in the air.


Xykon isn't a skeleton. He's a lich, and one with 20+ class levels. Don't you see a bit of a problem with making it "pretty trivial" for such a creature to be decapitated and incapacitated by an unarmed mid-level fighter, and one whose build entirely revolves around armed combat, no less? Imagine how that'd go over at a game table!

GM: Are you sure you wanna fight this dragon? It's CR 24, and you guys are what, level 5? You can't even hit this thing without a natural 20.

Player: Uh, well, if we can't beat its AC, we'll...I know! There's no called shot rules in this game, right?

GM: Uh, I guess not, but you'd need to hit an even higher number than its regular AC. What are you aiming for, anyways?

Player: We'll take out its eyes! It'll be blinded without those, right?

GM: I guess so, but you'd still need a 20 to hit, so how does that help?

Player: A big part of a dragon's AC is natural armor, though, right? Its scales? Those don't protect the eye area, so they shouldn't count!

GM: I guess that makes sense, but you'd still need to roll a natural 20 to hit them.

Player: No problem, me and Player 2 will drink True Strike potions and then attack!

Player 2: It's not taking us seriously, right? It probably won't care if we chug a potion or two, since we're "obviously" no threat, right?

GM: I suppose, but it won't let you sit around in front of it forever...

Player: We won't need to! Just one round to chug those potions, then we'll attack with our bows and arrows! Hit!

Player 2: Hit!

GM: Okay, fine, you've blinded it, but it can still smell you!

Player 3: I cast Stinking Cloud!

GM: What?!

[Goblin_Priest]

I don't think the fight required unreasonable luck, plot power, or gods or whatever.

What combat maneuver did Roy do, though? A grapple? Those are insanely hard, you need three successes to pin a guy.


Grapple Checks

Repeatedly in a grapple, you need to make opposed grapple checks against an opponent. A grapple check is like a melee attack roll. Your attack bonus on a grapple check is:

Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier


Setting aside that I think I recall a huge penalty for trying to do this one-handed... they have the same special size modifier. Roy MIGHT have more strength. Xykon has a higher BAB, however, by many points.

Successfully pinning Xykon would be very, very hard. And grapples don't allow you to throw your enemies.

A bullrush, under 3.5 rules, would be easier, though. Merely an opposed strength check.

[Zenzis]

Xykon isn't a skeleton. He's a lich, and one with 20+ class levels. Don't you see a bit of a problem with making it "pretty trivial" for such a creature to be decapitated and incapacitated by an unarmed mid-level fighter, and one whose build entirely revolves around armed combat, no less? Imagine how that'd go over at a game table!

GM: Are you sure you wanna fight this dragon? It's CR 24, and you guys are what, level 5? You can't even hit this thing without a natural 20.

Player: Uh, well, if we can't beat its AC, we'll...I know! There's no called shot rules in this game, right?

GM: Uh, I guess not, but you'd need to hit an even higher number than its regular AC. What are you aiming for, anyways?

Player: We'll take out its eyes! It'll be blinded without those, right?

GM: I guess so, but you'd still need a 20 to hit, so how does that help?

Player: A big part of a dragon's AC is natural armor, though, right? Its scales? Those don't protect the eye area, so they shouldn't count!

GM: I guess that makes sense, but you'd still need to roll a natural 20 to hit them.

Player: No problem, me and Player 2 will drink True Strike potions and then attack!

Player 2: It's not taking us seriously, right? It probably won't care if we chug a potion or two, since we're "obviously" no threat, right?

GM: I suppose, but it won't let you sit around in front of it forever...

Player: We won't need to! Just one round to chug those potions, then we'll attack with our bows and arrows! Hit!

Player 2: Hit!

GM: Okay, fine, you've blinded it, but it can still smell you!

Player 3: I cast Stinking Cloud!

GM: What?!

I don't see anything about Sorcerer levels that make your bones fuse together. Its sort of like saying there is a problem with the Micheal Jordon being vulnerable to bullets. He has a lot of abilities, but "bullet immunity" is not one of them. I guess liches technically have some withered skin holding them together, though Xykon doesn't show any art or other indication of this.

As for the example,
1. True Strike potions don't make you roll a natural 20.
2. The players in this situation are obviously highly outclassed, so if I put them in that situation I expected them to do something other then conventional combat unless I was just being a jerk DM. Maybe I intended diplomacy or sneaking but my players have choices.
3. Honestly if this scenario did happen, the players did both roll natural 20s, and then were smart enough to cast stinking cloud, that is kind of cool. They still haven't defeated the dragon through. They maybe created a situation where they could escape. Assuming the dragon doesn't choose to breathe randomly in the general direction they were in, locate them with sound, cast any one of a wide array of spells, generally flail around hoping to hit them, collapse the ceiling...

Hobbit Spoiler:

Edit: Also you must really not be a fan of The Hobbit... Not saying that particular case wasn't more story driven then anything, but I don't see why just because Xykon is a strong sorcerer lich we should assume he has no weaknesses.



What combat maneuver did Roy do, though? A grapple? Those are insanely hard, you need three successes to pin a guy.


He punched a guy who doesn't have much holding his head on and it fell off. If you are talking about after, he picked up most of a skeleton that seemed unable to move, and a skull that was still animated, then threw them.

Would you complain if Roy punched a vase on a table, and the vase fell off the table? Even if the vase has hardness high enough to overcome Roy's punch?

[hamishspence]

I think The Giant actually stated in book commentary (possibly for Blood Runs In The Family?) that the reason Redcloak seems very subservient in Dungeon Crawling Fools but not later, is that the events of Start of Darkness crushed his ego and self-worth, etc. a bit - and it's only after leaving Dorukan's Dungeon that it's started to recover.

A point is made that he's already began to "grow a spine" in Paladin Blues:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html


Apparently I'm wrong, it wasn't The Giant that stated it in commentary - it was Porthos that stated it on the forum:


There's actually a bit of (pardon the TV Trope term) Fridge Brillance there.

The events at the end of Start of Darnkess so badly shook up Recloak as to make him mentally subservient to Xykon. Redcloak murdering his brother in cold blood AND having Xykon rub his face in it shattered his worldview to such a degree that he regressed into a Mister Smithers-like lackey role while he attempted to process what he did.

Only when Xykon was 'killed' the first time and when he got in charge of the hobgoblins did he start to come out of his shell and act like the 'old' Redcloak.


Still, it's as good a reason as any.

[Peelee]

Apparently I'm wrong, it wasn't The Giant that stated it in commentary - it was Porthos that stated it on the forum:




Still, it's as good a reason as any.

I'm amused that I didn't even remember that, but pulled out the exact same argument to the very detail in this thread. Clearly that's one smart ninja.

[AutomatedTeller]

One thing I'll note is that Roy, in particular, has magic item advantages he did not before - a +5 sword with extra powers and giant strength. He's got a +9 to hit and damage from those.

[cleanrunner]

Roy could defeat Xykon with some unnatural luck for the first time.

Since I doubt the OOTS could take him and RC (maybe Mitd) out like that again, how much levels or XP do they have to grind in order to face them on plausible equal footing? Where would they get such an amount between the Firmament and Kraagor's Gate? (considering Team Evil already cleared out a bunch of monsters)

I mean, probably storywise it's never going to come down to a straight fight, but how could OOTS pull it off enough for Team Evil to be genuinely threatened?

[Peelee]

Roy could defeat Xykon with some unnatural luck for the first time.

Since I doubt the OOTS could take him and RC (maybe Mitd) out like that again, how much levels or XP do they have to grind in order to face them on plausible equal footing? Where would they get such an amount between the Firmament and Kraagor's Gate? (considering Team Evil already cleared out a bunch of monsters)

I mean, probably storywise it's never going to come down to a straight fight, but how could OOTS pull it off enough for Team Evil to be genuinely threatened?

Turning Redcloak against Xykon would help. Coincidentally, Redcloak already has Xykon's phylactery and Durkon's god just sent him on a mission to parley with Reddie, so there's that.

[Emanick]

Roy could defeat Xykon with some unnatural luck for the first time.

Since I doubt the OOTS could take him and RC (maybe Mitd) out like that again, how much levels or XP do they have to grind in order to face them on plausible equal footing? Where would they get such an amount between the Firmament and Kraagor's Gate? (considering Team Evil already cleared out a bunch of monsters)

I mean, probably storywise it's never going to come down to a straight fight, but how could OOTS pull it off enough for Team Evil to be genuinely threatened?

A level 19 Order might have a 50% chance of winning a battle against a level 24 Xykon and a level 17 Redcloak. It’s obviously not that simple for a bazillion different reasons, but that’s how I’d eyeball it.

[Rrmcklin]

Not about the Order, but what are the chances that Team Evil might have also leveled up a bit by the time the Order gets there?

Xykon did comment he's getting XP for the first time in a long while fighting the monsters in the dungeons.

[tyckspoon]

Not about the Order, but what are the chances that Team Evil might have also leveled up a bit by the time the Order gets there?

Xykon did comment he's getting XP for the first time in a long while fighting the monsters in the dungeons.

It's possible, but as long as Redcloak is at the 9th-level spells benchmark (level 17 or higher) there won't be a lot of visible difference in the fight. Xykon can get as many levels as he wants and there won't really be a way to show the difference - he's already high enough level that anything caster-level based is sufficiently larger than what the Order can bring up, and Epic levels don't include obvious advancement benchmarks like new spell levels to help pin down just how high level he is.. and storywise, the only thing that really matters is that he's higher level than the Order - he's playing with Epic effects and they aren't, so they need to come up with something unexpected to counter that.

[deuterio12]

As for Redcloak, most people tend to not be 100% archetypes all the time, but they appear that way in stories because the scenes we see them in are the ones that they fill their role in. In the early story, Redcloak's role archetype was dumb lackey. Later, his archetype was 5-D chess mastermind.

Presumably Lord Vetinari (from Discworld) does things like trimming his toenails or enjoying his favorite breakfast cereal. He probably even does more niche things like practicing his dance moves alone or fiddling with paperclips. If we primarily saw him during these scenes he would seem like a naive leader archetype. Since we primarily see him in scenes where he is manipulating people, executing elaborate plans, and stacking up contingencies, he appears to be a tactical/strategic/political genius.

If Lord Vetinari doesn't have some servant to clip his toenails or is seen eating peasan't cerals instead of some exotic breakfast fitting of his position as the noble leader of the city, that would be actually quite out of character for him.

Some people here saying Redcloak had his spirit crushed at the end of start of darkness, but that just shows they didn't bother reading the actual comic since Redcloak's quite the opposite there, laughing out loud, talking back to Xykon now and then while seeking to cover for his fellow goblins and even trying to increase their living conditions. A crushed spirit Redcloak would've just kept his head low all the time and dedicate every moment to making sure Xykon is pleased while not showing any care for the remaining goblins. Crushed spirit people simply do not spontaneously laugh loudly in front of the entity who supposedly crushed their spirit (in particular when said entity isn't laughing either).


It's possible, but as long as Redcloak is at the 9th-level spells benchmark (level 17 or higher) there won't be a lot of visible difference in the fight. Xykon can get as many levels as he wants and there won't really be a way to show the difference - he's already high enough level that anything caster-level based is sufficiently larger than what the Order can bring up, and Epic levels don't include obvious advancement benchmarks like new spell levels to help pin down just how high level he is.. and storywise, the only thing that really matters is that he's higher level than the Order - he's playing with Epic effects and they aren't, so they need to come up with something unexpected to counter that.

Which will be the Monster in the Darkness. It is already passively working against team evil by marking the wrong doors and is seen to actually have good traits, so it shouldn't take much for it to actively turn against Xykon at the heat of battle. And the thing's crazy powerful, even Xykon considers it their ultimate ace, so if anything below an actual god can take Xykon head on, it will be the Monster in the Darkness.

[Kish]

The Redcloak who laughed with the shadowy monster Xykon had created, and then asked why Xykon wasn't joining them in villainous laughter, had been created so Xykon would have someone to talk to.

It's a mistake to read his characterization as invalidating the end of Start of Darkness.

[InvisibleBison]

Not about the Order, but what are the chances that Team Evil might have also leveled up a bit by the time the Order gets there?

Xykon did comment he's getting XP for the first time in a long while fighting the monsters in the dungeons.

Not quite. He commented (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html) that he encountered monsters strong enough to give him XP for the first time in a while, but given how much magic item crafting he's been doing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html), he must be getting XP from something or he'd have run out by now.

[Zenzis]

If Lord Vetinari doesn't have some servant to clip his toenails or is seen eating peasan't cerals instead of some exotic breakfast fitting of his position as the noble leader of the city, that would be actually quite out of character for him.

Some people here saying Redcloak had his spirit crushed at the end of start of darkness, but that just shows they didn't bother reading the actual comic since Redcloak's quite the opposite there, laughing out loud, talking back to Xykon now and then while seeking to cover for his fellow goblins and even trying to increase their living conditions. A crushed spirit Redcloak would've just kept his head low all the time and dedicate every moment to making sure Xykon is pleased while not showing any care for the remaining goblins. Crushed spirit people simply do not spontaneously laugh loudly in front of the entity who supposedly crushed their spirit (in particular when said entity isn't laughing either).


My point was that taking characters as people, how they are defined is more about what they see them doing.

Vetinari had a dog named Wuffles he was very fond of. If we only saw him during Wuffles scenes we would have a very different impression of him as a character.

Redcloak was filling a different narrative role early in the comic, so we saw him doing different things. Even people with crushed spirits laugh and do other things sometimes, like try to trick demonic roaches into a motel.

[Goblin_Priest]

It's possible, but as long as Redcloak is at the 9th-level spells benchmark (level 17 or higher) there won't be a lot of visible difference in the fight. Xykon can get as many levels as he wants and there won't really be a way to show the difference - he's already high enough level that anything caster-level based is sufficiently larger than what the Order can bring up, and Epic levels don't include obvious advancement benchmarks like new spell levels to help pin down just how high level he is.. and storywise, the only thing that really matters is that he's higher level than the Order - he's playing with Epic effects and they aren't, so they need to come up with something unexpected to counter that.

He doesn't seem to actually use mythic effects in battle, though? Cloister is his only epic spell I can think of, and that's... an utility spell. I don't recall the specifics of epic levels, though... do they eventually get higher spell slots? Because I don't remember him casting a quickened meteor swarm, for example.

[Emanick]

He doesn't seem to actually use mythic effects in battle, though? Cloister is his only epic spell I can think of, and that's... an utility spell. I don't recall the specifics of epic levels, though... do they eventually get higher spell slots? Because I don't remember him casting a quickened meteor swarm, for example.

He casts Still Meteor Swarm and Maximized Energy Drain. So we know he has 12th level spell slots.

[zimmerwald1915]

He casts Still Meteor Swarm and Maximized Energy Drain. So we know he has 12th level spell slots.
Or an obscure feat. Or an invisible magic item :smallsigh:

[Goblin_Priest]

He casts Still Meteor Swarm and Maximized Energy Drain. So we know he has 12th level spell slots.

Oh, damn, that's true.

Also Superb Dispelling.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/superbDispelling.htm

[Yuki Akuma]

He doesn't seem to actually use mythic effects in battle, though? Cloister is his only epic spell I can think of, and that's... an utility spell. I don't recall the specifics of epic levels, though... do they eventually get higher spell slots? Because I don't remember him casting a quickened meteor swarm, for example.

Superb Dispelling is an epic spell.

[Peelee]

Superb Dispelling is an epic spell.

It's also a utility spell, though. I don't see why that matters, but Goblin Priest seemed dissatisfied with Cloister being a utility spell, so...

[Goblin_Priest]

It's also a utility spell, though. I don't see why that matters, but Goblin Priest seemed dissatisfied with Cloister being a utility spell, so...

Cloister has no use in combat, and thus won't really change anything once Xykon and the Order start fighting.

Superb Dispelling, though, can and WAS used in combat. Not sure it will be used again, though.

[Kish]

No one uses mythic effects in OotS, 'cause this ain't Pathfinder.

[Goblin_Priest]

No one uses mythic effects in OotS, 'cause this ain't Pathfinder.

Yes, indeed. I think it was clear that we meant "epic", though. Pardon the corruption, I haven't played 3.5 in a great many years, probably over a decade, but our last few PF settings did use mythic rules. Every time I want to write "epic" here, it tends to come out as "mythic", but yes I'm well aware OotS isn't set in PF. I don't think Superb Dispelling exists in PF either, but it's a legit 3.5 epic spell.

[D.One]

Or an obscure feat. Or an invisible magic item :smallsigh:

In fact, casting spell slots of level higher than 9 require epic feats (Improved Spell Capacity). Also, casting Epic Spells (a different category) requires another epic feat (Epic Spellcasting).

We might be able to try to deduce something about Xykon's level (besides the 21+ requirement in order to have access to epic feats and stuff) from the spells he has cast, since Epic Spells require a Spellcraft roll, and we could try to deduce the minimum Spellcraft ranks he has. Problem is, there are too many moving parts, since we don't know his INT score, feats that could give some bonus or magic itens that give bonus too.

For example, Superb Dispelling has a Spellcraft DC of 59. If we consider a roll of 20 on the d20, he would need +39 bonus in order to be able to cast it. He must have at least 24 ranks in Spellcraft, and at least 24 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) [which gives +2 synergy to Spellcraft], which means that, with only the bare minimum ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana), Xykon has another +26 to the roll. He still needs +13 to be able to succeed, but for an epic character like him, an item that gives such bonus is possible, feats that grant skill bonus are an option, and his INT score is most surely not low.


Edit:

PS: Back in C&L Geekery, we aren't sure X has used above 9 spell slots, because he could have used Sudden Maximize and Sudden Still to cast those spells without increasing the spell level. It's a very Sorcer-y thing to do... :smalltongue:

[TRH]

I don't see anything about Sorcerer levels that make your bones fuse together. Its sort of like saying there is a problem with the Micheal Jordon being vulnerable to bullets. He has a lot of abilities, but "bullet immunity" is not one of them. I guess liches technically have some withered skin holding them together, though Xykon doesn't show any art or other indication of this.

But there is something that complicates your argument: hit points. Why would anyone attempt to kill, say, a 20th level fighter by whacking away at them with normal hit point damage until they drop, when you could attempt a called shot to their jugular, something apparently only marginally more difficult than attempting to inflict hit point damage with a normal attack, and achieve an instant kill? Your preoccupation with "what magic holds his bones together" is blinding you to the larger point that from a game perspective, you're trying to invalidate one of said game's most basic mechanics, by invoking another mechanic that doesn't actually exist. Rephrased like that, do you see why it doesn't make a ton of game sense?

[Goblin_Priest]

Also, he could have a greater metamagic rod. These work on lvl 9 spells.

[D.One]

Also, he could have a greater metamagic rod. These work on lvl 9 spells.

Yeah, that was also thought, but since we don't see him wielding any rod both of the times he uses above 9 spell effects, the Rod Option became weakened in the debates about the subject.

[Emanick]

Yeah, that was also thought, but since we don't see him wielding any rod both of the times he uses above 9 spell effects, the Rod Option became weakened in the debates about the subject.

Yeah, this, basically. Rods are some of the most visible magic items out there. While it’s technically possible, it strains credulity that Xykon was using a rod in those scenes.

[Goblin_Priest]

Yeah, this, basically. Rods are some of the most visible magic items out there. While it’s technically possible, it strains credulity that Xykon was using a rod in those scenes.

We don't really see ALL of the magical attire the characters are wearing, though, are we?

Because none of the characters really look as FABULOUS as a high-level character sheet would normally imply.

[hroþila]

We don't really see ALL of the magical attire the characters are wearing, though, are we?

Because none of the characters really look as FABULOUS as a high-level character sheet would normally imply.
We don't see all magic items, sure, but we do see wands when they're used, and I can't imagine rods would be very different from those.

[Goblin_Priest]

We don't see all magic items, sure, but we do see wands when they're used, and I can't imagine rods would be very different from those.

Perhaps.

Visually, you are right that they are about the same. Stylishly, though... not so much. The wand actively allows a new action, though, whereas the rod is just a passive buff, of sorts. It would be rather anticlimactic to see Xykon flashing a rod in V's face as he maximized energy drains.

But yea I agree it's not likely that he was using a hidden rod.

[woweedd]

We don't see all magic items, sure, but we do see wands when they're used, and I can't imagine rods would be very different from those.
Plus, from a sheer storytelling perspective, it's bad form to, in the parlance of Chekhov, fire a gun that wasn't mounted.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Plus, from a sheer storytelling perspective, it's bad form to, in the parlance of Chekhov, fire a gun that wasn't mounted.

How Xykon can cast powerful spells is NOT a Chekov's gun. Whether he can do because he is level 27 or level 22 with a rod or whatever else is irrelevant to the plot, story, etc.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

How Xykon can cast powerful spells is NOT a Chekov's gun. Whether he can do because he is level 27 or level 22 with a rod or whatever else is irrelevant to the plot, story, etc.

Grey Wolf

Unless Haley steals the hypothetical rod or some such.

I'm pretty sure he doesn't have one, though (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html):


Power isn't something you put on or take off like a jacket. It's something you just ARE.

[Kish]

How Xykon can cast powerful spells is NOT a Chekov's gun. Whether he can do because he is level 27 or level 22 with a rod or whatever else is irrelevant to the plot, story, etc.

Grey Wolf
Yes, this.

If it, at some point, becomes vital to the plot that Xykon has a rod, that's one thing. If, as strikes me as far more likely, he unlives and is destroyed without the question of "how precisely does this guy cast twelfth-level spells, given that we already know he's an epic sorcerer?" becoming something that really matters to the plot...then it can stay as ambiguous as it is now.

[Goblin_Priest]

How Xykon can cast powerful spells is NOT a Chekov's gun. Whether he can do because he is level 27 or level 22 with a rod or whatever else is irrelevant to the plot, story, etc.

Grey Wolf

Well, technically, if it was an item, it could be relevant to the plot. Just as Recloak screamed "DISPEL, XYKON!" (or something to that effect), someone could scream to Roy "DISARM, ROY!". Or sunder. In any case, a greater metamagic rod of maximized spell costs 121,500 gp. That's one hella expensive stick.

If the capacity of using maximized energy drain (or meteo swarm) relied on an item, dealing with that item in combat would be a valid strategy.

But... I'm a bit fuzzy on the rules... are those unlimited use? In PF it's a max of 3 times per day per rod, I believe, but I didn't spot that while perusing the SRD. If it's unlimited, one would assume he'd spam it much more often.

[Ruck]

But there is something that complicates your argument: hit points. Why would anyone attempt to kill, say, a 20th level fighter by whacking away at them with normal hit point damage until they drop, when you could attempt a called shot to their jugular, something apparently only marginally more difficult than attempting to inflict hit point damage with a normal attack, and achieve an instant kill? Your preoccupation with "what magic holds his bones together" is blinding you to the larger point that from a game perspective, you're trying to invalidate one of said game's most basic mechanics, by invoking another mechanic that doesn't actually exist. Rephrased like that, do you see why it doesn't make a ton of game sense?

"Ceci n'est pas une partie de Donjons et Dragons."

[TRH]

"Ceci n'est pas une partie de Donjons et Dragons."

Peut-être, mais quelqu'un a dit que ceci est une partie de Donjons et Dragons, et si c'est vrai...

[Ruck]

Peut-être, mais quelqu'un a dit que ceci est une partie de Donjons et Dragons, et si c'est vrai...

Well, this is the part where I reveal I don't actually speak French, but I ran this through Google Translate and I think I got the gist of it.

Anyway, if someone really needs a rules-based or DM-ruling explanation, I'd go with something like "Roy's bond to his family's Weapon of Legacy is so strong that if someone shatters or sunders it, he immediately gets the opportunity to execute a critical and/or lethal strike on that person, regardless of level."

I don't really play D&D, so forgive any of my wording that is inexact.

[Peelee]

Peut-être, mais quelqu'un a dit que ceci est une partie de Donjons et Dragons, et si c'est vrai...

Hohn hohn hohn! (https://youtu.be/-r7dveDEv-I?t=14)

[Fyraltari]

Peut-être, mais quelqu'un a dit que ceci est une partie de Donjons et Dragons, et si c'est vrai...


Hohn hohn hohn! (https://youtu.be/-r7dveDEv-I?t=14)

https://media0.giphy.com/media/Pq5BkxKC9kkes/giphy.gif?cid=3640f6095c101ef7647531334523bcd8

[Peelee]

https://media0.giphy.com/media/Pq5BkxKC9kkes/giphy.gif?cid=3640f6095c101ef7647531334523bcd8
What's the source material for that gif?
Pardon, monsieur, mais oui (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7Nv7EUa-NQ).

[Fyraltari]

What's the source material for that gif?
The best French (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuQtzGvAxLY) TV show ever (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaamelott).
"mais" not "maise".

[Ruck]

Hohn hohn hohn! (https://youtu.be/-r7dveDEv-I?t=14)

https://twitter.com/FMusque/status/1027719808887021568

[Peelee]

The best French (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuQtzGvAxLY) TV show ever (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaamelott).
"mais" not "maise".

Hmmm. I'll have to see if I can't find a subbed version of that. Also, this greatly amuses me:

Created by Alexandre Astier
Written by Alexandre Astier
Directed by Alexandre Astier
Starring Alexandre Astier
Theme music composer Alexandre Astier
Appreciate the correction btw. Dunno why I added an e when I wrote from the google translate...

[Fyraltari]

Hmmm. I'll have to see if I can't find a subbed version of that. Also, this greatly amuses me
Dude has a lot of talent.

EDIT: Honestly, I can't overstate how popular that show still is in France. Astier is basically the king of pop-culture around here (http://maliki.com/en/strips/fans-of-a-fangirl/).

Hell, even Pen of Chaos who basically created the whole RPG-parody in France, wrote a fansong (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7M-_BEsjgE) about how awesome Kaamelott is.

[Rockphed]

Hmmm. I'll have to see if I can't find a subbed version of that. Also, this greatly amuses me:

Appreciate the correction btw. Dunno why I added an e when I wrote from the google translate...

If you find a subbed version, I would be most interested. I know just enough French to know that "je ne comprende pas le Francais".

Edit: I want to put a "de" between "pas" and "le", based on decade old lessons, but I can't actually remember them well enough to justify it.

[Peelee]

If you find a subbed version, I would be most interested. I know just enough French to know that "je ne comprende pas de le Francais".

I don't even know that much, but I do know that in most countries if you ask "bathroom?" to enough people you'll eventually get an answer. And, as an added bonus, they'll usually say the word in their language immediately upon realizing what you mean, which means you can then say "[their word for bathroom]?" from thereon out. It's a lifesaver, I tells ya.

[Fyraltari]

If you find a subbed version, I would be most interested. I know just enough French to know that "je ne comprende pas le Francais".

Edit: I want to put a "de" between "pas" and "le", based on decade old lessons, but I can't actually remember them well enough to justify it.

It would be wrong anyway. Your sentence is already correct. Well except for "comprends" but I can't blame you, I still get that one wrong on occasions.

[Ruck]

Hmmm. I'll have to see if I can't find a subbed version of that. Also, this greatly amuses me:

Appreciate the correction btw. Dunno why I added an e when I wrote from the google translate...

pfft, wake me up when he's also in charge of Locations and the Best Boy.

[Peelee]

pfft, wake me up when he's also in charge of Locations and the Best Boy.

Kiss Kiss Bang Bang actually had a joke about the Best Boy during the credits.

[Ruck]

Kiss Kiss Bang Bang actually had a joke about the Best Boy during the credits.

Ooh, that's been on my to-see list for some time.

For the curious, "What does the Best Boy do? Help the Key Grip." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwY5o2fsG7Y)

EDIT: I think one of the Naked Gun or Hot Shots movies had a credits joke about the "Best Boy," too, following it with "Worst Boy: Adolf Hitler" or something like that.

[Peelee]

Ooh, that's been on my to-see list for some time.

For the curious, "What does the Best Boy do? Help the Key Grip." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwY5o2fsG7Y)

EDIT: I think one of the Naked Gun or Hot Shots movies had a credits joke about the "Best Boy," too, following it with "Worst Boy: Adolf Hitler" or something like that.

Shane Black is right up there with Christopher Guest and the Coen brothers in the "I'll see anything they make" category, with Shane Black topping the list. KKBB is, IMO, his magnum opus.

Also, I want to say that was either Naked Gun or Police Squad!

[Ruck]

Shane Black is right up there with Christopher Guest and the Coen brothers in the "I'll see anything they make" category, with Shane Black topping the list. KKBB is, IMO, his magnum opus.

Also, I want to say that was either Naked Gun or Police Squad!

All great choices. I've sadly fallen behind on my Coen Brothers for some time. Although I suppose I could catch up in like a day.

I don't think Police Squad! did closing-credit gags like that, although I could be wrong. (They usually closed with a freeze-frame gag.)

[Lacuna Caster]

Also remember when Redcloak had literally nothing better to do than try to catch roaches? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html) Nowadays he's all "3D chess mastermind plotting over decades and pulling the strings of everybody around him all along". Guess those roaches were actually disguised gods or epic eldritch roaches.
I believe this is referred to as 'early instalment weirdness'?


Xykon is a skeleton. Most of what holds people together is soft tissue. There are not any rules that I am aware of for punching off a skeleton's head, so if one of my players wanted to do it I would have to make some up. There aren't any called shot rules in 3.5 that I am aware of, but I would probably make the attack roll a bit higher for aiming for a solid head shot. After that I would think a pretty trivial strength check for a fighter.
The comic oscillates between 'high-level characters are nigh-indestructable crash-test mannequins' and 'everyone can die from having their neck snapped' in whatever manner the author considers to service the needs of plot, drama and/or comedy at a particular moment in the story. I'm not personally crazy about this approach, but it's not really specific to Xykon.

[snowblizz]

Knocking Xykon's head off doesn't actually accomplish anything. Xykon himself tells Roy "Congratulations you have moderately inconvenienced me". And goes right on through his schtick to call on the MitD to reveal itself until, essentially, plot and drama, or DM fiat if it was a game, kicks in.


Oh and I beleive it's Rich in the book commentary saying Redcloak's early behaviour should be put down to "emotional distress". Having been whipped by recent events. Namely killing his own brother in cold-blood, for no reason at all.

The comic itself comments upon the slight change in dynamics between goblin and lich in a scene when they escape. As someone said recently I think, when Xykon blew up RC got some of his spine back. Also, ofc, the reason for the thread in the firs tpalce. RC has vastly increased in power from earlier to become an actual threat to Xykon if there was a confrontation.

Also do we really have to spoil SOD at this point? 10 years after? More? Feels slightly silly.




The comic oscillates between 'high-level characters are nigh-indestructable crash-test mannequins' and 'everyone can die from having their neck snapped' in whatever manner the author considers to service the needs of plot, drama and/or comedy at a particular moment in the story. I'm not personally crazy about this approach, but it's not really specific to Xykon.

It's not entirely author fiat though. Ultimately a lot of the jokes stem from the idiosyncrasies of game's ruleset which is designed to create those kinds of situtions.

Just take Shelby the Dragonslayer as an example.

[Rockphed]

Also do we really have to spoil SOD at this point? 10 years after? More? Feels slightly silly.

Considering that I only found a copy of it a couple months ago? I think SOD spoilers are still polite.

[Lacuna Caster]

It's not entirely author fiat though. Ultimately a lot of the jokes stem from the idiosyncrasies of game's ruleset which is designed to create those kinds of situations.
No, I'm aware of the rules. I'm talking more about cases where certain characters go from literally dodging lightning to being instantly KO'd by thin sheets of lead, which I'm pretty sure is not in the rules.

(Or, to take an example in the other direction, Miko can instantly snap Gin-Jun's neck during a duel, when she can't be higher than level 3 and Gin-Jun is both engaged in combat, at full health, and ostensibly one of the guard's top swordsmen. I'm pretty sure that doesn't meet the criteria for a coup-de-grace.)

[Emanick]

No, I'm aware of the rules. I'm talking more about cases where certain characters go from literally dodging lightning to being instantly KO'd by thin sheets of lead, which I'm pretty sure is not in the rules.

(Or, to take an example in the other direction, Miko can instantly snap Gin-Jun's neck during a duel, when she can't be higher than level 3 and Gin-Jun is both engaged in combat, at full health, and ostensibly one of the guard's top swordsmen. I'm pretty sure that doesn't meet the criteria for a coup-de-grace.)

I agree with your broader point - that scene bothers me for the same reason - but there's no way Miko is anything like level 3 in that scene. She's able to beat up O-Chul, and O-Chul was able to make dozens of hobgoblins flee while alone on the battlefield. It makes a lot more sense to me if you view both of them as closer to level 8 - which also helps explain why, in recent strips, O-Chul is probably at least level 12 yet doesn't appear to have taken his fifth paladin level yet.

My best guess is that O-Chul is a Fighter 8/Paladin 4 and Miko is a Monk 8/Paladin 8 during the most recent scenes where we see each of them.

[hroþila]

I want to be comfortable with this discussion but the examples inevitably had to involve Miko.

[Goblin_Priest]

Let's never forget the chance to just roll miserable and fantastically. Also for HP loss to not be always well visually represented. Also potential for optional rules (like increased effects for rolling a nat 20 on a crit confirmation roll).

If your enemy keeps rolling 1s, and you keep max-dicing...

A bastard sword is 1d10, 19-20/×2 If you have 18 str, you can inflict 28 damage per hit. Without Power Attack. Add in the secondary weapon... you can take down someone many levels higher if you keep critting.

Unarmed... is a bit more of a stretch, but if he wasn't full HP, and you use triple nat 20 rules and such...

[Emanick]

There’s a lot to be said for the “instant kill” variant rule mentioned in the 3.5 DMG. It may be in effect in the OOTSverse.

In case anyone’s unfamiliar with it, it states that if someone gets a 20 on the roll they use to confirm a critical hit, they can roll the d20 a third time, and if that roll would be high enough to hit when treated as a normal attack roll, the target of the attack is instantly killed.

It’s a fun rule. I used it for years as a DM and it mostly worked really well. We did had one incident where a player tried to poke himself in the eye, got two natural 20s, and ended up killing himself, but I was 14 at the time and my DMing skills were... less than perfect. :smalltongue: (That said, we all thought it was really funny, so maybe I made the right call in ruling it that way after all.)

Anyway, on a more on-topic note, it would make both the thing spoilered a few posts ago and the Shelby the Dragonslayer scene a lot more believable. And probably others that I’m forgetting, too.

[zimmerwald1915]

There’s a lot to be said for the “instant kill” variant rule mentioned in the 3.5 DMG. It may be in effect in the OOTSverse.
It might. But as undead are immune to critical hits, and as Xykon was not destroyed when Roy punched his head off, it would seem to be a poor explanation for the scene that prompted this discussion.

[Emanick]

It might. But as undead are immune to critical hits, and as Xykon was not destroyed when Roy punched his head off, it would seem to be a poor explanation for the scene that prompted this discussion.

That’s true. I wasn’t referencing that scene, though, only the others that were brought up as parallels. The “punching Xykon’s head off” scene doesn’t really seem to have a good explanation, although it also doesn’t egregiously contradict any RAI, IMO.

[Goblin_Priest]

There’s a lot to be said for the “instant kill” variant rule mentioned in the 3.5 DMG. It may be in effect in the OOTSverse.

In case anyone’s unfamiliar with it, it states that if someone gets a 20 on the roll they use to confirm a critical hit, they can roll the d20 a third time, and if that roll would be high enough to hit when treated as a normal attack roll, the target of the attack is instantly killed.

It’s a fun rule. I used it for years as a DM and it mostly worked really well. We did had one incident where a player tried to poke himself in the eye, got two natural 20s, and ended up killing himself, but I was 14 at the time and my DMing skills were... less than perfect. :smalltongue: (That said, we all thought it was really funny, so maybe I made the right call in ruling it that way after all.)

Anyway, on a more on-topic note, it would make both the thing spoilered a few posts ago and the Shelby the Dragonslayer scene a lot more believable. And probably others that I’m forgetting, too.

Also "death from massive damage" optional rules exist.


It might. But as undead are immune to critical hits, and as Xykon was not destroyed when Roy punched his head off, it would seem to be a poor explanation for the scene that prompted this discussion.

Sure, but his head falling off was irrelevant. He didn't take extra damage from it, or die, or anything. It can be handwaved as artistic freedom in visually representing the damage taken.

Also yea we were talking about Miko there.

[Lacuna Caster]

I agree with your broader point - that scene bothers me for the same reason - but there's no way Miko is anything like level 3 in that scene. She's able to beat up O-Chul, and O-Chul was able to make dozens of hobgoblins flee while alone on the battlefield. It makes a lot more sense to me if you view both of them as closer to level 8 - which also helps explain why, in recent strips, O-Chul is probably at least level 12 yet doesn't appear to have taken his fifth paladin level yet.

My best guess is that O-Chul is a Fighter 8/Paladin 4 and Miko is a Monk 8/Paladin 8 during the most recent scenes where we see each of them.
I would incline to agree (particularly given that Scar-Miko apparently has the deflect arrows feat, which she technically shouldn't have), but the geekery thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545476-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XV-What-s-the-Damage-of-a-Thrown-Pineapple&p=22690896&viewfull=1#post22690896) suggests that the bulk of her class levels are as a paladin. (And O-Chul wasn't actually fighting back- as he notes, she didn't actually come that close to knocking him out.)

It's all fine and good to talk about the merits of instant-death variant rules, but not in the same universe where characters can be hurled by explosions or punched through walls for hundreds of feet and walk away with bruising and scratches.

[hamishspence]

Retraining rules might explain some of these inconsistencies - trading away most of her levels in monk for levels in paladin.

[Peelee]

I would incline to agree (particularly given that Scar-Miko apparently has the deflect arrows feat, which she technically shouldn't have), but the geekery thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545476-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XV-What-s-the-Damage-of-a-Thrown-Pineapple&p=22690896&viewfull=1#post22690896) suggests that the bulk of her class levels are as a paladin. (And O-Chul wasn't actually fighting back- as he notes, she didn't actually come that close to knocking him out.)

Doesn't matter if he wasn't fighting back, he's still got an AC she has to consistently hit. Defensive moves, like Miyagi swatting a punch away, for instance, are not what I would consider fighting back.

ETA: Also, unless you can nail down a level (or even a decently small range of levels) for Gin-Jun to be, the point remains largely academic.

[Emanick]

[SPOILER=GDGU]
It's all fine and good to talk about the merits of instant-death variant rules, but not in the same universe where characters can be hurled by explosions or punched through walls for hundreds of feet and walk away with bruising and scratches.

Sure it is. Variability is a thing. The double critical hit -> instant kill rule is invoked extremely rarely; by definition it can't happen more than 0.2375% of the time. Death by massive damage can also be avoided by making a saving throw. Something both the real world and the OOTSverse have in common is that similar attacks of similar deadliness can have very different impacts on the human body in different situations, depending on a variety of factors that we can simplistically sum up as "luck."

[hamishspence]

No, I'm aware of the rules. I'm talking more about cases where certain characters go from literally dodging lightning to being instantly KO'd by thin sheets of lead, which I'm pretty sure is not in the rules.


an Improvised Weapon does a reasonable amount of damage - and it's possible to crit with any melee attack on a roll of 20 followed by a successful confirmation roll, including with improvised weapons.

Add in that Miko had already taken some damage, which had not been healed fully,

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0281.html

and it's well within the limitations of the rules, for such a hit to knock her out.

[Lacuna Caster]

Sure it is. Variability is a thing. The double critical hit -> instant kill rule is invoked extremely rarely; by definition it can't happen more than 0.2375% of the time. Death by massive damage can also be avoided by making a saving throw. Something both the real world and the OOTSverse have in common is that similar attacks of similar deadliness can have very different impacts on the human body in different situations, depending on a variety of factors that we can simplistically sum up as "luck."
Yeah, but the amount of luck involved for five members of the Order to walk out of that sarcophagus alive after Girard's Gate went kablooey tends to wipe out any faith I might have in the viability of massive damage.

If you want to argue "I like the story, so I'm willing to overlook this", fine. But please don't argue that there's nothing to overlook.

EDIT: Sorry, 4 members, not 5.

[Peelee]

Yeah, but the amount of luck involved for five members of the Order to walk out of that sarcophagus alive after Girard's Gate went kablooey tends to wipe out any faith I might have in the viability of massive damage.

Sucks to be you, then. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html). That's totally legit in the comic.

[hamishspence]

Considering the rules for saving against dying from Massive Damage involve a Fort save DC of only 15:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#massiveDamage

and the only Order member one would expect to have a very low Fort save modifier (V), isn't present,

it may not be all that improbable.

[Morty]

The rules for hit points and combat in general in D&D are bad. Very bad. But even if they weren't, they're still rules for a game, and a game isn't the same thing as a conventional story.

In a combat-heavy, high-powered game, anything that can cause instant death to player character needs to be looked at with a lot of suspicion. D&D hit points do it poorly, but some measure of being able to shrug things off is necessary. It's one thing if someone in a story dies instantly from an unexpected hit. It's another if it can happen to characters in a game. But OotS is the former and not the latter, even if it keeps some of its trappings.

[hroþila]

I would argue that the thing you shouldn't overlook is that it was an Indiana Jones joke, and in the source material the protagonist was (infamously) largely unscathed in the face of a much greater destructive force. They didn't really need to get "lucky".

[woweedd]

Oh God, is this another "Lacuna can't accept the concept of drama and comedy co-existing" debate?

[zimmerwald1915]

Doesn't matter if he wasn't fighting back, he's still got an AC she has to consistently hit.
AC is among the things least impacted by gaining hit dice, unless you're a Dragon Disciple or other class that grants scaling natural armor. AC is mostly impacted by equipment, and O-Chul was half-clothed at the time. His AC would have been basically 10 + his natural Dexterity modifier, which likely isn't terribly high - +4 at most, and that's pushing it. Miko could hit his AC fairly easily.

There's also Dodge, Combat Expertise and other feats that increase AC, but O-Chul seems more the type to soak damage with his massive HP pool than to avoid it. Which is what he says he was doing at the bar scene.

[Lacuna Caster]

an Improvised Weapon does a reasonable amount of damage - and it's possible to crit with any melee attack on a roll of 20 followed by a successful confirmation roll, including with improvised weapons...

Considering the rules for saving against dying from Massive Damage involve a Fort save DC of only 15...
Belkar was nearly dead before he got in that coffin.

Look, we could debate how rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm)-congruent (http://dmreference.com/MRD/Equipment/Weapons/Melee_Weapons/Improvised_Weapons.htm) these scenarios are, but the larger problem is that you can't argue "neck-snapping is fine, because real-world human anatomy" and then say "being impaled through the torso or hurled outside the city limits is fine, because HP". These two things are incongruous.


I would argue that the thing you shouldn't overlook is that it was an Indiana Jones joke, and in the source material the protagonist was (infamously) largely unscathed in the face of a much greater destructive force. They didn't really need to get "lucky".
Yeah, but given exactly how infamous it was, I'm not sure that consciously lampshading how this happens with four characters at once was a great move.

[Peelee]

Belkar was nearly dead before he got in that coffin.

Look, we could debate how rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm)-congruent (http://dmreference.com/MRD/Equipment/Weapons/Melee_Weapons/Improvised_Weapons.htm) these scenarios are, but the larger problem is that you can't argue "neck-snapping is fine, because real-world human anatomy" and then say "being impaled through the torso or hurled outside the city limits is fine, because HP". These two things are incongruous.

They are. People have argued alt rules that require rolling 3 nat 20s in a row is fairly unlikely and would thus be rare if used, and that things can happen based off how dramatic they are is built into how the world works, but you seem to ignore those arguments for some reason.

[georgie_leech]

They are. People have argued alt rules that require rolling 3 nat 20s in a row is fairly unlikely and would thus be rare if used, and that things can happen based off how dramatic they are is built into how the world works, but you seem to ignore those arguments for some reason.

In fairness, "the world conforms to rules of drama over consistency" seems to be a part of their general dislike over any perceived inconsistent treatment. Like, if someone came up to me and said they didn't like candy because it was too sweet for them, I wouldn't try to convince them that candy is good because it's supposed to be sweet, you know?

[Peelee]

In fairness, "the world conforms to rules of drama over consistency" seems to be a part of their general dislike over any perceived inconsistent treatment. Like, if someone came up to me and said they didn't like candy because it was too sweet for them, I wouldn't try to convince them that candy is good because it's supposed to be sweet, you know?

While true, I would be surprised that said person would be constantly eating candy while taking multiple soapboxes on that in a candy store.

[georgie_leech]

While true, I would be surprised that said person would be constantly eating candy while taking multiple soapboxes on that in a candy store.

I didn't say they were completely consistent :smallbiggrin: My point is just that given their apparent position, it's not all that surprising they don't consider those explanations an especially convincing refutation.

[Kish]

While true, I would be surprised that said person would be constantly eating candy while taking multiple soapboxes on that in a candy store.
Yes, this. I think everyone who's read more than two of Lacuna's posts is pretty clear on what he objects to now. The puzzling thing is that he feels the need to go on sharing, even though no one agrees with him, and seems to treat people not coming up with some way OotS is a "D&D rules uber alles" story that it never claimed to be (and that probably wouldn't be very good) as some kind of moral victory for him.

[woweedd]

Yes, this. I think everyone who's read more than two of Lacuna's posts is pretty clear on what he objects to now. The puzzling thing is that he feels the need to go on sharing, even though no one agrees with him, and seems to treat people not coming up with some way OotS is a "D&D rules uber alles" story that it never claimed to be (and that probably wouldn't be very good) as some kind of moral victory for him.
I think it's more like "consistency", in the sense of "consistency with things the story never said,, but which I assumed to be true, because." Lacuna seems to insist that the OOTS world be a naturalistic one, when it simply isn't one. It's one that's self-aware, with only one real rule: What makes for the best story? To quote the show from which Rich got his name. "it moves at the speed of plot." The rules of the game matter, but the rule of narrative matters more. Since Lacuna seems to be confused by, among other things, the concept of 4th-wall breaking, it may not be a story for them.

[Aquillion]

Honestly, it's worth pointing out that even in the early strips, a lot of the running was a gag, so this was partially the result of the strip transitioning from a gag comic to a more plot-based one. Even at the start of the comic, they were, what, level 11-12, I think? That's enough that if they were careful with Durkon / V's spells and rested when they needed to, they wouldn't have had to run away as much as they did.

But they were much more reckless than a normal party would have been, because it was funnier.

[Lacuna Caster]

While true, I would be surprised that said person would be constantly eating candy while taking multiple soapboxes on that in a candy store.
I stopped 'eating the candy' around the time that Girard's Gate blew up, as it happens. And if one thinks that candy is a contributor to diabetes, passing out leaflets in a candy store arguably makes a certain sense.

I should clarify that I have no great personal fondness for D&D rules, but I do think metaphysical consistency is a virtue (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Quotes/MagicAIsMagicA) of imaginative storytelling. Not the be and end-all of virtues, fine, sure, but a virtue, and not one that necessarily has to wring out all drama.

[Kish]

Even at the start of the comic, they were, what, level 11-12, I think?
Level 7-9, according to the FAQ.

[Peelee]

I stopped 'eating the candy' around the time that Girard's Gate blew up, as it happens.

Eating the candy, in this analogy, is continuing to read the story.

[woweedd]

Honestly, it's worth pointing out that even in the early strips, a lot of the running was a gag, so this was partially the result of the strip transitioning from a gag comic to a more plot-based one. Even at the start of the comic, they were, what, level 11-12, I think? That's enough that if they were careful with Durkon / V's spells and rested when they needed to, they wouldn't have had to run away as much as they did.

But they were much more reckless than a normal party would have been, because it was funnier.
And because, back then, they were either stereotypes or anti-stereotypes*, and a stereotypical adventure party is reckless.
*Smart, rather then Dumb, Muscle, Greedy Rogue, Goofy Bard, Sociopath Halfling, Boring Cleric, Egotistical, power-obsessed Wizard,
with bonus Androgynous Elf.

I stopped 'eating the candy' around the time that Girard's Gate blew up, as it happens. And if one thinks that candy is a contributor to diabetes, passing out leaflets in a candy store arguably makes a certain sense.

I should clarify that I have no great personal fondness for D&D rules, but I do think metaphysical consistency is a virtue (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Quotes/MagicAIsMagicA) of imaginative storytelling. Not the be and end-all of virtues, fine, sure, but a virtue, and not one that necessarily has to wring out all drama.
Well then, i'm sorry, but this story is not about the rules. It's about the characters. As long as they're, more-or-less, consistent, he couldn't care less. The plot isn't the point, it's a vehicle to get the characters moving.

[Fyraltari]

I stopped 'eating the candy' around the time that Girard's Gate blew up, as it happens. And if one thinks that candy is a contributor to diabetes, passing out leaflets in a candy store arguably makes a certain sense.

And what would the diabetes represent, in this metaphor?

[Ruck]

Eating the candy, in this analogy, is continuing to read the story.

Yup.

I thought of a real-world example that might make sense as an analogy to "flyers in the candy store," but it would go into some delicate, likely forbidden, real-world places.

Anyway, the people who are in the candy store have already decided to buy candy. And this is where the analogy falls apart further, because the posters on the forum are an even smaller and more devoted subset of comic readers than the general readership. So it's more like going into a meeting of the Clergy of the Church of Candy and insisting to them that candy is bad. ("Candy gives you diabetes" also falls apart because reading and enjoying The Order of the Stick is not, in fact, detrimental to your health.)

[woweedd]

Yup.

I thought of a real-world example that might make sense as an analogy to "flyers in the candy store," but it would go into some delicate, likely forbidden, real-world places.

Anyway, the people who are in the candy store have already decided to buy candy. And this is where the analogy falls apart further, because the posters on the forum are an even smaller and more devoted subset of comic readers than the general readership. So it's more like going into a meeting of the Clergy of the Church of Candy and insisting to them that candy is bad. ("Candy gives you diabetes" also falls apart because reading and enjoying The Order of the Stick is not, in fact, detrimental to your health.)
As far as we know.

[Ruck]

As far as we know.

I'm a big believer in the value of good storytelling to humanity, so I would argue that reading The Order of the Stick is, in fact, beneficial.

[Lacuna Caster]

And what would the diabetes represent, in this metaphor?
That's a... complicated question. If you're asking what I think is 'off' about OOTS in terms of message and theme, well... I think there are potential downsides (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blank_Slate#Summary) to presenting characters with diametrically opposed personalities despite having identical genes, but that's a different and much broader discussion which I don't think I can cover here. And this is somewhat different from my point about meta/physical consistency, which is more about technique than end-product.

I think technique matters, though. Fiction is a place where you get to invent your own facts to fit your own theories, and if the facts you establish seem to be fighting your own desired conclusions, that might just be a sign the conclusions are suspect.


Anyway, the people who are in the candy store have already decided to buy candy. And this is where the analogy falls apart further, because the posters on the forum are an even smaller and more devoted subset of comic readers than the general readership. So it's more like going into a meeting of the Clergy of the Church of Candy and insisting to them that candy is bad.
Are you... sure that religious fundamentalism is the metaphor you were looking for?

The value of art is hard to prove, and again, probably outside the scope of the thread, but I think a story can be exquisitely constructed in terms of character development and dramatic impetus without any guarantee about the merits of it's underlying worldview. The Dark Knight Returns is a superb piece of storytelling, but if you wanted to argue that it represented some troubling (https://adeptpress.wordpress.com/2016/02/18/in-darkest-knight/) aspects of the contemporary political zeitgeist and had terrible effects on the wider comics industry, I would be hard-pressed to rebut those charges.

[woweedd]

That's a... complicated question. If you're asking what I think is 'off' about OOTS in terms of message and theme, well... I think there are potential downsides (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blank_Slate#Summary) to presenting characters with diametrically opposed personalities despite having identical genes, but that's a different and much broader discussion which I don't think I can cover here. And this is somewhat different from my point about meta/physical consistency, which is more about technique than end-product.

I think technique matters, though. Fiction is a place where you get to invent your own facts to fit your own theories, and if the facts you establish seem to be fighting your own desired conclusions, that might just be a sign the conclusions are suspect.


Are you... sure that religious fundamentalism is the metaphor you were looking for?

The value of art is hard to prove, and again, probably outside the scope of the thread, but I think a story can be exquisitely constructed in terms of character development and dramatic impetus without any guarantee about the merits of it's underlying worldview. The Dark Knight Returns is a superb piece of storytelling, but if you wanted to argue that it represented some troubling (https://adeptpress.wordpress.com/2016/02/18/in-darkest-knight/) aspects of the contemporary political zeitgeist and had terrible effects on the wider comics industry, I would be hard-pressed to rebut those charges.
That sounds like, no offense, equivalating pseudo-intellectualism. It feels like you have a point, but you're not willing to just come out and say it, so you're not being specific. If you want to criticize OOTS, then do that. But either do that or leave. Don't try and dance around the question.

[Ruck]

Lacuna, I'm gonna agree with woweedd. The only clear point I can see from you in that post is "genetic determinism is good," which I neither necessarily agree with nor think is applicable in a fantasy-based setting where genetics don't necessarily work like we expect them to.

You injected "fundamentalism" into my post, not me, which says to me that you misread it, either deliberately or not, but either way you're missing the actual point. The OOTS forums are a place where people gather specifically because they're big fans of The Order of the Stick and like to discuss it. It is, thus, not a great place to go if you want to convince people The Order of the Stick is a misguided, badly written story.

[Peelee]

The OOTS forums are a place where people gather specifically because they're big fans of The Order of the Stick and like to discuss it. It is, thus, not a great place to go if you want to convince people The Order of the Stick is a misguided, badly written story.

To be fair, I'd say it would be a good place to do that either in the hopes of fostering discussion about certain issues or injecting new complaints to consider. It's continuing to beat the same drum over and over when that rhythm has never gone over well that may not be the best plan of attack.

[Rockphed]

It is, thus, not a great place to go if you want to convince people The Order of the Stick is a misguided, badly written story.

I come away with that impression sometimes after reading these forums, but it is from reading the arguments made by some of the fans thereof and statements from Rich, not from people engaging in negavangelism. Most of it is because I have a different values than 85% of the people who post here, so reading people put their values, which I don't agree with, forth as being justified by the comic sometimes leaves me in a foul mood.

[woweedd]

Lacuna, I'm gonna agree with woweedd. The only clear point I can see from you in that post is "genetic determinism is good," which I neither necessarily agree with nor think is applicable in a fantasy-based setting where genetics don't necessarily work like we expect them to.

You injected "fundamentalism" into my post, not me, which says to me that you misread it, either deliberately or not, but either way you're missing the actual point. The OOTS forums are a place where people gather specifically because they're big fans of The Order of the Stick and like to discuss it. It is, thus, not a great place to go if you want to convince people The Order of the Stick is a misguided, badly written story.
See, I think the criticism is fine. As an artist myself, feedback is the food and drink of creativity, and that includes negative feedback. I just wish Lacuna would be specific, and point out actual flaws, instead of either nitpicking things that aren't actually plot-holes, using generic "this story disagrees with my viewpoint on the world and is therefore bad", or blatantly, nand, it often seems, willfully, missing the point. It feels like they're more obsessed with proving Rich has nay flaw to us instead of actually getting answers. It's not like this forum isn't willing to debate. I mean, heck, Kish, one of the longest-running and most respected posters on the forum, has oft pointed out what they view as odd morals in the story, but they're willing to actually argue their point, instead of just repeating them and hoping they stick.

[Ruck]

To be fair, I'd say it would be a good place to do that either in the hopes of fostering discussion about certain issues or injecting new complaints to consider. It's continuing to beat the same drum over and over when that rhythm has never gone over well that may not be the best plan of attack.

Yes, although I'll add that if you want to do the former, you also have to actually have issues and complaints to voice, not just vague notions about Art.


See, I think the criticism is fine. As an artist myself, feedback is the food and drink of creativity, and that includes negative feedback. I just wish Lacuna would be specific, and point out actual flaws, instead of either nitpicking things that aren't actually plot-holes, using generic "this story disagrees with my viewpoint on the world and is therefore bad", or blatantly, and, it often seems, willfully, missing the point. It feels like they're more obsessed with proving Rich has nay flaw to us instead of actually getting answers. It's not like this forum isn't willing to debate. I mean, heck, Kish, one of the longest-running and not respected posters on the forum, has oft pointed out what they view as odd morals in the story, but they're willing to actually argue their point, instead of just repeating them and hoping they stick.

Sure, I agree (see above). It's just, to reword something I think most of us are saying, you have to have actual criticisms instead of just doing the bolded, essentially insisting that everyone sees that you are Right and Rich is Wrong even though you can't explain why.

That approach is especially not likely to work in a place that is, effectively, a community formed around the idea that generally, Rich is right. And I also strongly disagree with the concept of it being "fundamentalist"; most of us came to that conclusion because we read the story and liked it and concluded the author was a good storyteller, not because we were indoctrinated to believe he was.

[Svata]

Undead are immune to anything requiring a Fort save unless it also affects objects. Prismatic Spray explicitly only affects "Creatures in the area of the spell".

Xykon would be randomly affected by 1 of 7 effects (2 of 7 if an 8 is rolled), of which 4 he is immune to (poison, petrify, Electric damage, as Liches are immune to electricity, and Insanity, as undead are immune to Mind Affecting effects as well), and barely inconvenienced by 2 (Fire and Acid damage).

This leaves "sent to another plane" as the only option with a real, concrete effect on the fight (which is he needs to burn 2 spells [Plane Shift and Teleport] to get back into the fight).

Prismatic Spray is an astoundingly bad spell to use against Xykon.

Well, it's a good thing Redcloak isn't Xykon, then.

[Kish]

Well, it's a good thing Redcloak isn't Xykon, then.
:redcloak: "It certainly is!"

[Peelee]

Kish, one of the longest-running and not respected posters on the forum

Autocorrect typo? I know I like Kish, they made me a far better debater and changed my mind on a number of things.

[woweedd]

Autocorrect typo? I know I like Kish, they made me a far better debater and changed my mind on a number of things.
Yes, quite. Kish is cool.

[Lacuna Caster]

Lacuna, I'm gonna agree with woweedd. The only clear point I can see from you in that post is "genetic determinism is good," which I neither necessarily agree with nor think is applicable in a fantasy-based setting where genetics don't necessarily work like we expect them to.
Genetic determinism is neither bad nor good. Acknowledging the existence of genetic influences on personality and intelligence- which is not 'my viewpoint', but an objective truth beyond rational dispute- is I think, useful, particularly if you have ambitions of your narrative having relevance to reality. It's not like we're tuning in for a physics lesson.

I honestly cannot go into these topics in much more detail without violating board rules, so I'm sorry, but this is simply what you'll have to work with. But you explicitly compared yourself and other forumites to a faith-based priesthood, not I.


See, I think the criticism is fine. As an artist myself, feedback is the food and drink of creativity, and that includes negative feedback. I just wish Lacuna would be specific, and point out actual flaws, instead of either nitpicking things that aren't actually plot-holes...
I'm sorry, woweedd, but I simply don't consider it a particular virtue of the story when vast chunks of explanation regarding the 12 Gods and/or Shojo's motivations for completely baffling decisions that otherwise make them look like imbeciles, hypocrites or actively hostile to human life are totally absent from the narrative. And I don't believe (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?571070-Why-are-Miko-s-parents-dead&p=23457538&viewfull=1#post23457538) I am alone on this.

[Ruck]

Genetic determinism is neither bad nor good. Acknowledging the existence of genetic influences on personality and intelligence- which is not 'my viewpoint', but an objective truth beyond rational dispute- is I think, useful, particularly if you have ambitions of your narrative having relevance to reality. It's not like we're tuning in for a physics lesson.
I think this falls under woweedd's description of "nitpicking things that aren't plot holes."


I honestly cannot go into these topics in much more detail without violating board rules, so I'm sorry, but this is simply what you'll have to work with. But you explicitly compared yourself and other forumites to a faith-based priesthood, not I.
And this falls under woweed's description of "blatantly, and, it often seems, willfully, missing the point."


I'm sorry, woweedd, but I simply don't consider it a particular virtue of the story when vast chunks of explanation regarding the 12 Gods and/or Shojo's motivations for completely baffling decisions that otherwise make them look like imbeciles, hypocrites or actively hostile to human life are totally absent from the narrative. And I don't believe (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?571070-Why-are-Miko-s-parents-dead&p=23457538&viewfull=1#post23457538) I am alone on this.

"I am not alone in this" is not the same as "Here is my case for this." And a large number of people, myself included, don't agree with what you describe here.

Again, just like wowweed said, you're dancing around what you want to say without saying it, and hoping that you can imply something that will let people make your arguments for you.

[woweedd]

I think this falls under woweedd's description of "nitpicking things that aren't plot holes."


And this falls under woweed's description of "blatantly, and, it often seems, willfully, missing the point."



"I am not alone in this" is not the same as "Here is my case for this." And a large number of people, myself included, don't agree with what you describe here.

Again, just like wowweed said, you're dancing around what you want to say without saying it, and hoping that you can imply something that will let people make your arguments for you.
Again, Lacuna seems like the CinemaSins guys, where anything the narrative doesn't explicitly spell out is assumed to be a plot hole.

[hroþila]

The existence of genetic influences on personality was established when Elan was shown to have inherited Tarquin's taste for theatrics and Nale his mom's taste for unnecessary complexity. Yes, those things appear to be "genetic" in this universe - this is fantasy slash comedy after all.

[Ruck]

The existence of genetic influences on personality was established when Elan was shown to have inherited Tarquin's taste for theatrics and Nale his mom's taste for unnecessary complexity. Yes, those things appear to be "genetic" in this universe - this is fantasy slash comedy after all.

Do you find it a plot hole that Nale and Elan's intelligence levels and personalities are so different?

[woweedd]

The existence of genetic influences on personality was established when Elan was shown to have inherited Tarquin's taste for theatrics and Nale his mom's taste for unnecessary complexity. Yes, those things appear to be "genetic" in this universe - this is fantasy slash comedy after all.
This world may not yet run on Darwinian Evolution, but it's got Lamarckian down pat.

[Lacuna Caster]

"I am not alone in this" is not the same as "Here is my case for this...
Ruck, how exactly do you want me to respond here? I either tell you to go read the other thread, in which case you accuse me of not stating my case, or I state my case, reiterate the same arguments, and get accused of being a one-button issue guy who turns every thread into a Miko war. I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't, and since you're not making any actual arguments yourself, I see no reason to humour you.

[Ruck]

Again, Lacuna seems like the CinemaSins guys, where anything the narrative doesn't explicitly spell out is assumed to be a plot hole.

I'm a fan of "Movie Goofs (https://twitter.com/movie_goofs?lang=en)" on Twitter.

[Sadsharks]

I'm sorry, woweedd, but I simply don't consider it a particular virtue of the story when vast chunks of explanation regarding the 12 Gods and/or Shojo's motivations for completely baffling decisions that otherwise make them look like imbeciles, hypocrites or actively hostile to human life are totally absent from the narrative. And I don't believe (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?571070-Why-are-Miko-s-parents-dead&p=23457538&viewfull=1#post23457538) I am alone on this.

Have you considered that they might just be imbeciles, hypocrites or actively hostile to human life? I mean, if that's the impression the story gave you, why assume you were supposed to think otherwise? Why is this hypothetical explanation necessarily "absent" rather than nonexistent or irrelevant?

[hroþila]

Do you find it a plot hole that Nale and Elan's intelligence levels and personalities are so different?
Of course not. But to be fair, I don't think Lacuna has called it a plot hole either. They seem to be saying that it is a flaw of some sort (in that there are potential negative real-world consequences to that way of thinking, which stories help promote), but that's pretty different from calling it a plot hole. I do disagree with Lacuna about it being a flaw of the story, mind you, but fair is fair.

This world may not yet run on Darwinian Evolution, but it's got Lamarckian down pat.
Well, it is the most fun theory of the two, with only the slight disadvantage of being baloney sandwiches.

[Peelee]

I honestly cannot go into these topics in much more detail without violating board rules, so I'm sorry, but this is simply what you'll have to work with. But you explicitly compared yourself and other forumites to a faith-based priesthood, not I.

If he compared said priesthood to a real-world religion, then that would be relevant. As it is, Peeleevia, the fictitious land ruled by a benevolent yet rakishly handsome leader with an iron fist, has OOTS as its state-sanctioned religion, and fun fact, none of that is against the rules because it's built to have exactly zero real-world parallels.

[Ruck]

Ruck, how exactly do you want me to respond here? I either tell you to go read the other thread, in which case you accuse me of not stating my case, or I state my case, reiterate the same arguments, and get accused of being a one-button issue guy who turns every thread into a Miko war. I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't, and since you're not making any actual arguments yourself, I see no reason to humour you.

"Humor" me? You're the one who keeps insisting everyone should see it your way, even though your case has been largely fallacious and largely insistent that characters should simply behave more optimally.

I read the post you linked. I don't agree with it. I read the thread at the time and was unconvinced of your perspective. You showed up in yet another thread to make it about your pet issue, not me.


Have you considered that they might just be imbeciles, hypocrites or actively hostile to human life? I mean, if that's the impression the story gave you, why assume you were supposed to think otherwise? Why is this hypothetical explanation necessarily "absent" rather than nonexistent or irrelevant?

Yes, the "Movie Goofs" account is definitely relevant here.

[Kish]

And this falls under woweed's description of "blatantly, and, it often seems, willfully, missing the point."



"I am not alone in this" is not the same as "Here is my case for this."
Indeed, I think his effort to drag in TidePriestess as support is also blatantly missing the point. She called D&D rules, which say the "tier 5" paladin class is more restricted than the "tier 1" cleric class unfair; she didn't contest that that's what they say, nor did she ever suggest that it's a plot hole that Tsukiko didn't fall for her violations of the paladin code.

Or if he's implying that Snails agreed with him because Snails said that clerics have codes...

...well, I do note that Lacuna appears increasingly reticent to actually spell out anything, rather than making vague wink-wink-nudge-nudge implications (in this case, simply linking a post which doesn't say anything about the Twelve Gods or Shojo as part of a claim that he's not alone in his judgments of the Twelve Gods and Shojo).

Have you considered that they might just be imbeciles, hypocrites or actively hostile to human life? I mean, if that's the impression the story gave you, why assume you were supposed to think otherwise? Why is this hypothetical explanation necessarily "absent" rather than nonexistent or irrelevant?
As far as that goes, at least one god (Fenrir) is really explicitly hostile to human (and all other) life. Though they were less explicit about it, I'll go out on a limb and say that so is Hel, and so is, almost as certainly, Nergal.

A few people, over the years, have assumed that the Twelve Gods are an all-Lawful Good pantheon; even in Tsukiko's absence that, or even the much less ambitious "they have no equivalent of Fenrir, Hel, and Nergal," would not be the way to bet. Lacuna is the first one to have insisted that the Twelve Gods just can't have any members who would sponsor Tsukiko--because those previous posters, even if they started out with an erroneous assumption, discarded it when the established facts contradicted it, rather than trying to keep it and discard the facts.

[hroþila]

Yes, the "Movie Goofs" account is definitely relevant here.
That Movie Goofs account is the best thing that has happened to me all week. Thanks!

[georgie_leech]

I'm certainly not going to argue that the OotS gods are necessarily consistent. Or all that virtuous even. Perhaps it should be viewed as them having a lot of power and influence over the setting, without that necessarily implying they count as moral endorsements for any given world view? The gods can be displeased with someone without that being an author's commentary on how they're just the worst.

Not-a-good-Paladin is a pretty lousy moral judgement anyway, since that describes basically everyone that I know :smalltongue:

[woweedd]

I'm certainly not going to argue that the OotS gods are necessarily consistent. Or all that virtuous even. Perhaps it should be viewed as them having a lot of power and influence over the setting, without that necessarily implying they count as moral endorsements for any given world view? The gods can be displeased with someone without that being an author's commentary on how they're just the worst.

Not-a-good-Paladin is a pretty lousy moral judgement anyway, since that describes basically everyone that I know :smalltongue:
Hey, O-Chul's a pretty good Paladin. Celia would probably be pretty good at it too, though the pacifism may present an obstacle. Either way, i'm fairly certain none of the Twelve Gods are worse then Neutral, but that's still enough for one of them to like Tsukiko enough to keep granting her power. And, like a jury, you only need the one. Why do Paladins still follow them? Because they live there. And because, contrary to what Lacuna thinks, even though I can see why they'd be confused, Rich's Paladins, much like standards Paladins, don't get their powers from the Gods, because they're a class all their own, not just "Clerics, but with swords".

[Peelee]

Either way, i'm fairly certain none of the Twelve Gods are worse then Neutral,

A.) Rat.
2.) Even that aside, why would you assume that?

[woweedd]

A.) Rat.
2.) Even that aside, why would you assume that?
You're not wrong.

[Dausuul]

Well, it's a good thing Redcloak isn't Xykon, then.
It's not the best spell to use on Redcloak, either. Red, orange, and yellow just deal damage, and none does enough to take down a cleric of his level. We know that Redcloak loads up on defensive buffs whenever he's expecting combat, and extended neutralize poison is a buff he is very likely to have active; it lasts for five and a half hours and negates green. Indigo and violet both target his Will save, which is a sucker's bet against a 17th-level cleric.

As a save-or-die spell, prismatic spray is kinda weak for its level. Its chief virtue is the area of effect. It's for blasting groups of enemies, not single foes.

Meanwhile, Redcloak can fire back with implosion, which targets V's weakest save and is instant death on a failed roll.

[deuterio12]

Do you find it a plot hole that Nale and Elan's intelligence levels and personalities are so different?

That was explained in that Nale kept hitting Elan in his soft undeveloped skull before they got separated. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)

Adult Elan's literally suffering from brain damage all along.

[Darth Paul]

That was explained in that Nale kept hitting Elan in his soft undeveloped skull before they got separated. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)

Adult Elan's literally suffering from brain damage all along.

Which I now take as one of the early throwaway jokes, whether that's canon or not. On repeat readings, I was bothered by that one (even though I still get a chuckle). Elan may not be an evil genius, or any genius at all, but he doesn't fall into the category of sub-standard IQ (I haven't looked at the geekery threads, maybe I'm wrong). Elan's trait is innocence and empathy versus Nale's cunning and complete lack of empathy. Elan has gradually developed a very high emotional intelligence which argues, to me, that he is not developmentally disabled in any way.

And I took that way too seriously given that it's just a webcomic, but darn it, I like Elan. :smallamused:

[Rockphed]

Which I now take as one of the early throwaway jokes, whether that's canon or not. On repeat readings, I was bothered by that one (even though I still get a chuckle). Elan may not be an evil genius, or any genius at all, but he doesn't fall into the category of sub-standard IQ (I haven't looked at the geekery threads, maybe I'm wrong). Elan's trait is innocence and empathy versus Nale's cunning and complete lack of empathy. Elan has gradually developed a very high emotional intelligence which argues, to me, that he is not developmentally disabled in any way.

And I took that way too seriously given that it's just a webcomic, but darn it, I like Elan. :smallamused:

It is a running gag in the comics that Elan cannot do complex arithmetic. Or even simple arithmetic.

[SaintRidley]

enjoying The Order of the Stick is not, in fact, detrimental to your health.)


As far as we know.


I'm a big believer in the value of good storytelling to humanity, so I would argue that reading The Order of the Stick is, in fact, beneficial.

I don't know. I died once from reading this comic. It was not an ideal experience. It all began when I fell into a plot hole that was actually just subtext and the universe did a divide by zero error on me.

And now the color purple tastes like feet. I, of course, lay all blame for this on Rich.

[deuterio12]

Which I now take as one of the early throwaway jokes, whether that's canon or not. On repeat readings, I was bothered by that one (even though I still get a chuckle). Elan may not be an evil genius, or any genius at all, but he doesn't fall into the category of sub-standard IQ (I haven't looked at the geekery threads, maybe I'm wrong). Elan's trait is innocence and empathy versus Nale's cunning and complete lack of empathy. Elan has gradually developed a very high emotional intelligence which argues, to me, that he is not developmentally disabled in any way.

And I took that way too seriously given that it's just a webcomic, but darn it, I like Elan. :smallamused:

Charisma is the stat for emotional stuff, not Int. And indeed Elan has been confirmed as unable to do simple math and there's that time he wanted to multiclass to wizard V pointed out he would be unable to use cantrips, so under int 0. Even Haley who loves him often treats him in a condescending "let me do the thinking sweetie" way.

There was also that time he finally met daddy and it took father making giant burning letters out of screaming slaves for Elan to put 2 and 2 together and figure out Tarkin was extra evil.

More recently in the vampire battle Elan couldn't even figure out the basic undead vulnerabilities.

It's not a one off thrown away joke, the pieces are all over the place and fit together quite nicely.

Still his heart is in the right place and pretty nice guy to have around, Elan's the walking trope of the good dumb hero.

[hamishspence]

Which I now take as one of the early throwaway jokes, whether that's canon or not. On repeat readings, I was bothered by that one (even though I still get a chuckle). Elan may not be an evil genius, or any genius at all, but he doesn't fall into the category of sub-standard IQ (I haven't looked at the geekery threads, maybe I'm wrong).

We have Word of Giant that no characters in the comic are mentally disabled:


I don't consider any of the characters in the entire comic to be "mentally handicapped." Thog is not smart compared to Roy, but he does not have an atypical neurology. He is capable of determining right from wrong, and chooses wrong consistently. I know people like to project this idea onto Thog that he's not responsible for his actions because he's dumb, but…he is responsible. We know he is because the orcs on the island are the same as him and don't murder people just for fun.

In D&D terms, anyone who has an Intelligence of 3 or higher is capable of determining right from wrong (because they have an alignment); speak, read, and write a language fluently; and generally looking after themselves on a daily basis while adventuring in a dangerous dungeon. This does not describe most real-world people with mental handicaps (to my knowledge). Which means the bulk of the spectrum of mental handicaps probably sits somewhere below 3 and above 2, because it's a system designed for action-adventure and it doesn't need more granularity than that. It doesn't want to have the conversation, and honestly, in this case, I'm inclined to agree. D&D is a system that only describes people within a certain range of mental ability, and OOTS follows suit.

So "nearly as dim as you can get without being disabled in the strictest sense" would appear to cover Elan, Thog, etc.

[snowblizz]

Charisma is the stat for emotional stuff, not Int. And indeed Elan has been confirmed as unable to do simple math and there's that time he wanted to multiclass to wizard V pointed out he would be unable to use cantrips, so under int 0. Even Haley who loves him often treats him in a condescending "let me do the thinking sweetie" way.
Does Int 0 in this case mean no int bonus or literal zero? Because Thog is int 3. And Elan, no matter what the jokes say is smarter than that. Elan can think, math jokes or no, when he applies himself. He just doesn't do so very often.



There was also that time he finally met daddy and it took father making giant burning letters out of screaming slaves for Elan to put 2 and 2 together and figure out Tarkin was extra evil.

More recently in the vampire battle Elan couldn't even figure out the basic undead vulnerabilities.

It's not a one off thrown away joke, the pieces are all over the place and fit together quite nicely.

Still his heart is in the right place and pretty nice guy to have around, Elan's the walking trope of the good dumb hero.

Unwilling to face the perceivable reality is not the same as being dumb though. It's not lack of intelligence that makes Elan unwilling to connect the dots in eg his fathers actions.

I see Elan much like the MitD, who we know acts dumb but clearly is much smarter than that, if he only would apply that intelligence score. If such a thing was possible in D&D rules I would say Elan was using his Charisma stat to make skill checks, even where Intelligence would be better. Similarly, V is a person who applies Intelligence to everything even when something like Wisdom or Charisma would be more appropriate.

Again, that's not how you do skill checks in D&D, I know, but am trying for a metaphore or something like that here.

In some ways Xykon works this way too. He acts rather dumb and oblivious, but it is mostly that he doens't care. When he does care, he has more than an int 3 to add his lich bonus to, if ya catch my drift.

TL:DR I guess, having a low base int (like Thog) is not the same as not applying the int score most times (Elan, Xykon, MitD). Having glanced a the geekery thread am more inclined to say Elan is int 9 rather than 4.

[hamishspence]

indeed Elan has been confirmed as unable to do simple math and there's that time he wanted to multiclass to wizard V pointed out he would be unable to use cantrips, so under int 0.

Does Int 0 in this case mean no int bonus or literal zero?

Given that a Wizard only needs to be Int 9 to be incapable of preparing cantrips:


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#preparingWizardSpells

To prepare a spell the wizard must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell’s level.

it would appear that V's claim is that Elan is Int 9 or less.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html

[Lacuna Caster]

The existence of genetic influences on personality was established when Elan was shown to have inherited Tarquin's taste for theatrics and Nale his mom's taste for unnecessary complexity.
Yeah, fine, but the thing is that every other aspect (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230854879_The_Genetic_Links_Between_the_Big_Five_P ersonality_Traits_and_General_Interest_Domains) of personality is also influenced by genes. Same story for intelligence (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lev8dGnxvdw). And oh, look-

-they keep finding that shared environment (which controls for parenting) has no significant influence on most of these traits.

https://i.postimg.cc/t4YdKWrh/influences-on-personality.png


That was explained in that Nale kept hitting Elan in his soft undeveloped skull before they got separated. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)
Yeah, but in this scene Baby Nale already has a goatee and is viciously aggressive, while Elan isn't. So you either discount this incident, and have to explain Elan's lower Int score some other way, or accept it, and reject that Nale and Elan were ever identical.

[Goblin_Priest]

Yeah, fine, but the thing is that every other aspect (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230854879_The_Genetic_Links_Between_the_Big_Five_P ersonality_Traits_and_General_Interest_Domains) of personality is also influenced by genes. Same story for intelligence (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lev8dGnxvdw). And oh, look-

-they keep finding that shared environment (which controls for parenting) has no significant influence on most of these traits.

https://i.postimg.cc/t4YdKWrh/influences-on-personality.png


Yeah, but in this scene Baby Nale already has a goatee and is viciously aggressive, while Elan isn't. So you either discount this incident, and have to explain Elan's lower Int score some other way, or accept it, and reject that Nale and Elan were ever identical.

Ha, investigative-scientific looks like the only trait not affected by genetics! :P

[woweedd]

Yeah, fine, but the thing is that every other aspect (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230854879_The_Genetic_Links_Between_the_Big_Five_P ersonality_Traits_and_General_Interest_Domains) of personality is also influenced by genes. Same story for intelligence (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lev8dGnxvdw). And oh, look-

-they keep finding that shared environment (which controls for parenting) has no significant influence on most of these traits.

https://i.postimg.cc/t4YdKWrh/influences-on-personality.png


Yeah, but in this scene Baby Nale already has a goatee and is viciously aggressive, while Elan isn't. So you either discount this incident, and have to explain Elan's lower Int score some other way, or accept it, and reject that Nale and Elan were ever identical.
It's complicated. Because, on the one hand, identical twins in real life often develop separate personalities, but adaptation children often develop personality more like their genetic parents then their adoptive ones. The first one suggests nurture is important, while the second suggests the opposite.

[hroþila]

Yeah, fine, but the thing is that every other aspect (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230854879_The_Genetic_Links_Between_the_Big_Five_P ersonality_Traits_and_General_Interest_Domains) of personality is also influenced by genes. Same story for intelligence (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lev8dGnxvdw). And oh, look-

-they keep finding that shared environment (which controls for parenting) has no significant influence on most of these traits.

https://i.postimg.cc/t4YdKWrh/influences-on-personality.png
So what you're trying to say is that OotS isn't entirely realistic from a scientific point of view?

[Lacuna Caster]

Ha, investigative-scientific looks like the only trait not affected by genetics! :P
That is very interesting, isn't it.


It's complicated. Because, on the one hand, identical twins in real life often develop separate personalities, but adaptation children often develop personality more like their genetic parents then their adoptive ones. The first one suggests nurture is important, while the second suggests the opposite.
Oh, in the case of adoption studies, the results are very clear (https://www.jstor.org/stable/40063231?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents)- children resemble their adoptive parents only slightly, and less so with age. Whatever environmental factors influence development, 'nurture'- in the sense of parenting/home-environment- typically only accounts for 0-10% of the variance. The rest is split between (A) genetics and (B) environment outside the home.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Given that a Wizard only needs to be Int 9 to be incapable of preparing cantrips:


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#preparingWizardSpells

To prepare a spell the wizard must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell’s level.

it would appear that V's claim is that Elan is Int 9 or less.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html

Your first sentence doesn't track with the rest. You need to have INT 10 (10+0) to cast cantrips.

Given that Elan seems to have plenty of skill points available, to the point he can afford cross-class skills, he can't be much below 10.

But this is dealt with in the C&LG threads.

[woweedd]

Your first sentence doesn't track with the rest. You need to have INT 10 (10+0) to cast cantrips.

Given that Elan seems to have plenty of skill points available, to the point he can afford cross-class skills, he can't be much below 10.

But this is dealt with in the C&LG threads.
Bards get a lot of skill points, regardless of Int.

[Goblin_Priest]

Your first sentence doesn't track with the rest. You need to have INT 10 (10+0) to cast cantrips.

Given that Elan seems to have plenty of skill points available, to the point he can afford cross-class skills, he can't be much below 10.

But this is dealt with in the C&LG threads.

Bards get 6+int per level. Even at 6-1=5, that's a lot more skills than many, including fighters (2), cleric (2), wizards (2), and barbarians (4).

8-9 int is enough to not be able to cast cantrips while still having plenty of skill points.

And you don't need to max out class skills to put a few points in a few cross-class ones.

[Peelee]

Given that a Wizard only needs to be Int 9 to be incapable of preparing cantrips:


Your first sentence doesn't track with the rest. You need to have INT 10 (10+0) to cast cantrips.

You do need an INT 10 to cast cantrips. Which means a wizard needs to be Int 9 to be incapable of preparing cantrips. Which hamish said.

[woweedd]

Bards get 6+int per level. Even at 6-1=5, that's a lot more skills than many, including fighters (2), cleric (2), wizards (2), and barbarians (4).

8-9 int is enough to not be able to cast cantrips while still having plenty of skill points.

And you don't need to max out class skills to put a few points in a few cross-class ones.
True, although Wizards usually have a lot of skill points, since they almost always have high INT.

[Goblin_Priest]

True, although Wizards usually have a lot of skill points, since they almost always have high INT.

Sure, but an 18 int wizard will get no more than a 10 int bard.

We also can't really tell how skillful people are... most skills rarely come up or come up in discreet ways. There's no reason to believe that V is any less skilled than Elan.

[King of Nowhere]

I'd peg elan't intelligence at a -2 modifier. definitely dumber than most, but not too badly near the end of the scale. he also get one extra skill point as human.
and it's likely he doesn't have max ranks in class skills. we know he has little concentration, at least.

there is also the fact that elan seems smarter when he really applies himself, but that goes for everyone. we all raraly engage our full mental faculties, as doing so is tiring. it's just that most of us can surf through most of a day even at half-power.

one thing I admire in elan, though, is that he's smart enough to realize he's dumb, and let others whom he deems more competent take the lead. there are many dumb people who are too dumb to realize they are, and so think they are always right and are arrogant and annoying. elan did not choose to be dumb, and he's doing his best with what he has, so he get my respect

[Fyraltari]

I think Elan overplays his own dumbness sometimes, for the sake of a joke.

Like here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1091.html).

[woweedd]

I'd peg elan't intelligence at a -2 modifier. definitely dumber than most, but not too badly near the end of the scale. he also get one extra skill point as human.
and it's likely he doesn't have max ranks in class skills. we know he has little concentration, at least.

there is also the fact that elan seems smarter when he really applies himself, but that goes for everyone. we all raraly engage our full mental faculties, as doing so is tiring. it's just that most of us can surf through most of a day even at half-power.

one thing I admire in elan, though, is that he's smart enough to realize he's dumb, and let others whom he deems more competent take the lead. there are many dumb people who are too dumb to realize they are, and so think they are always right and are arrogant and annoying. elan did not choose to be dumb, and he's doing his best with what he has, so he get my respect
Actually, that might be the best summation of Elan's intelligence: he's exactly smart enough to know that he's stupid.

[Kish]

I think Elan overplays his own dumbness sometimes, for the sake of a joke.

Like here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1091.html).
The implicit assumption that he doesn't really anthropomorphize his vest and his lute just like he does his hand puppet, is one I will not be joining you in.

[woweedd]

The implicit assumption that he doesn't really anthropomorphize his vest and his lute just like he does his hand puppet, is one I will not be joining you in.
Indeed, although i'm pretty sure it has less to do with his intelligence, and more to do with his immaturity/high-empathy.

[Doug Lampert]

Bards get 6+int per level. Even at 6-1=5, that's a lot more skills than many, including fighters (2), cleric (2), wizards (2), and barbarians (4).

8-9 int is enough to not be able to cast cantrips while still having plenty of skill points.

And you don't need to max out class skills to put a few points in a few cross-class ones.

It would be 6-1+1=6, you forgot the bonus skill point for being human. Elan has over 100 skill points even if he has 8-9 Int.

(Actually a bit less, because his first levels were 3.0, where bards got 4 skill points/level, and we know the non-existent GM did not allow characters to make reasonable changes in the transition.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

(Actually a bit less, because his first levels were 3.0, where bards got 4 skill points/level, and we know the non-existent GM did not allow characters to make reasonable changes in the transition.)

We do? I thought that the implication was that already assigned skill points stayed put, but the "Ping" "Ooh! Skill points" indicated that Elan got a pool of unassigned points he could now make use of.

(Admittedly, I might be completely off-base. I never cared much for this issue, so I may have forgotten the particulars)

Grey Wolf

[hamishspence]

his first levels were 3.0, where bards got 4 skill points/level, and we know the non-existent GM did not allow characters to make reasonable changes in the transition.)


We do? I thought that the implication was that already assigned skill points stayed put, but the "Ping" "Ooh! Skill points" indicated that Elan got a pool of unassigned points he could now make use of.

(Admittedly, I might be completely off-base. I never cared much for this issue, so I may have forgotten the particulars)


This was the comment from The Giant on the subject, when it was raised back in 2005:


Re: Elan singing: Elan is singing about his new number of base skill points per level; bards went from 4 to 6 in 3.5. He is not actually gaining any skill points, because skill point gains aren't retroactive, and he is not taking into account his Intelligence penalty because, as noted, he's bad at simple math.

(my underlining)

[Goblin_Priest]

It would be 6-1+1=6, you forgot the bonus skill point for being human. Elan has over 100 skill points even if he has 8-9 Int.

(Actually a bit less, because his first levels were 3.0, where bards got 4 skill points/level, and we know the non-existent GM did not allow characters to make reasonable changes in the transition.)

Fair enough.

[Dausuul]

This was the comment from The Giant on the subject, when it was raised back in 2005:

Re: Elan singing: Elan is singing about his new number of base skill points per level; bards went from 4 to 6 in 3.5. He is not actually gaining any skill points, because skill point gains aren't retroactive, and he is not taking into account his Intelligence penalty because, as noted, he's bad at simple math.

On a side note, we now have Word of Rich that Elan has an Int penalty, meaning his Int is no higher than 9.

Personally, I'd put him at an 8-9 Int (-1 penalty). He's a little on the dumb side, but much of what "reads" as stupidity at first glance is just childlike enthusiasm, lack of filters, and extreme distractability, all of which traits can be found among smart and stupid people alike.

[Aquillion]

Yeah, V specifically complains that they wouldn't have banned Conjuration under 3.5 rules (which moved teleportation under it.)

Which leads to an interesting question: Was V able to cast Teleport prior to the first comic? Did they do so? Does V's spellbook contain that spell?

[Rogar Demonblud]

In order, no (Teleport is a 5th, the Order wasn't ninth until strip 12), thus no, and probably not since it was higher level (plus V didn't offer to trade it to Z).

[Lacuna Caster]

So what you're trying to say is that OotS isn't entirely realistic from a scientific point of view?
No, this goes deeper than that. To take the most straightforward example, the entire point of Durkon's arc during his struggle with Greg was to show that the formative influence of Durkon's home environment was so overwhelming that it could overwrite the hard-wired destructive impulses of a definitional being of pure evil. This isn't some incidental technical detail, it's right at the core of the story's intended audience takeaway. And Durkon's not alone here: Haley's paranoia, Roy's toxic masculinity and Elan's prosocial naiveté are all laid at the feet of parental influence. All of this is based on models of personality development which were debunked decades ago, without even touching on cases (http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002792.html) like Belkar's.

I should caution that the studies I've cited have some limitations: They tend to be based on first-world populations where severe cases of abuse and neglect are highly atypical, and malnutrition or disease are quickly treated. They would not cover cases liked Redcloak's, for example, or other more institutionalised forms of life-altering trauma (https://info-buddhism.com/Abuse_and_Buddhism-Behind_the_Smiling_Facade-Anna_Sawerthal.html). They don't rule out the influence of peer networks, career choice and the broader regional culture. If you adopt a third-world kid into an OECD-nation household, that decision will probably have substantial impact on their life history. (Or you could, you know, send money to those countries instead and multiply the impact considerably.)

In any case, while I don't rule out the importance of environmental factors (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S-c4KB9Uew), and 'don't abuse or neglect your offspring' is such an innocuous moral that I'd usually give it a free pass, it's not clear to me that blaming-the-parents is a useful approach for solving the social problems which are probably foremost in the minds of OOTS' general readership. And I am baffled by why the author goes out of his way to humanise and reform impulsive serial-killers and genocidal autocrats after claiming that redemption is a 'rare and special thing'.

[woweedd]

No, this goes deeper than that. To take the most straightforward example, the entire point of Durkon's arc during his struggle with Greg was to show that the formative influence of Durkon's home environment was so overwhelming that it could overwrite the hard-wired destructive impulses of a definitional being of pure evil. This isn't some incidental technical detail, it's right at the core of the story's intended audience takeaway. And Durkon's not alone here: Haley's paranoia, Roy's toxic masculinity and Elan's prosocial naiveté are all laid at the feet of parental influence. All of this is based on models of personality development which were debunked decades ago, without even touching on cases (http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002792.html) like Belkar's.

I should caution that the studies I've cited have some limitations: They tend to be based on first-world populations where severe cases of abuse and neglect are highly atypical, and malnutrition or disease are quickly treated. They would not cover cases liked Redcloak's, for example, or other more institutionalised forms of life-altering trauma (https://info-buddhism.com/Abuse_and_Buddhism-Behind_the_Smiling_Facade-Anna_Sawerthal.html). They don't rule out the influence of peer networks, career choice and the broader regional culture. If you adopt a third-world kid into an OECD-nation household, that decision will probably have substantial impact on their life history. (Or you could, you know, send money to those countries instead and multiply the impact considerably.)

In any case, while I don't rule out the importance of environmental factors (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S-c4KB9Uew), and 'don't abuse or neglect your offspring' is such an innocuous moral that I'd usually give it a free pass, it's not clear to me that blaming-the-parents is a useful approach for solving the social problems which are probably foremost in the minds of OOTS' general readership. And I am baffled by why the author goes out of his way to humanise and reform impulsive serial-killers and genocidal autocrats after claiming that redemption is a 'rare and special thing'.
This feels like more of a philosophical disagreement. Needless to sassy, I disregardful strenuously with the whole "genetics is destiny" argument, but that's probably something more for the science forum. And as for humanizing...Yeah. Everyone's human, or humanoid. Redemption is rare, but not impossible, and, in any case, redemption and humanization are not the same thing. Miiko wasn't redeemed. She could have been, but, unfortunately, her particular psychosis drove her off the deep end before she could. She didn't have the time.

[Kish]

This feels like more of a philosophical disagreement. Needless to sassy, I disregardful strenuously with the whole "genetics is destiny" argument, but that's probably something more for the science forum. And as for humanizing...Yeah. Everyone's human, or humanoid. Redemption is rare, but not impossible, and, in any case, redemption and humanization are not the same thing. Miiko wasn't redeemed. She could have been, but, unfortunately, her particular psychosis drove her off the deep end before she could. She didn't have the time.
I, meanwhile, am wondering who the genocidal autocrat is.

Vaarsuvius? I don't really see the "autocrat" part, but I...suspect (and very much hope) that the comic will end with redemption still being something Vaarsuvius is striving for, with the reader able to fill in "they do/don't get it," even if Rich might have a preference for what they fill in which will be different from mine.

Ultimately, "Redemption is a rare and special thing" having the second half "it's entirely or almost entirely limited to PCs" would add unwanted bathos to Miko's death scene, but there's still a real chance that's what it's going to come down to. The explicitly stated words in the comic are already valid; numerous characters have not found redemption (Miko, Bozzok, Crystal, Kubota, Tsukiko, ...etc....) and none have, yet (unless you take the position that Redcloak's brother needed redemption for ever being on board with the Plan, which I don't).

[woweedd]

I, meanwhile, am wondering who the genocidal autocrat is.

Vaarsuvius? I don't really see the "autocrat" part, but I...suspect (and very much hope) that the comic will end with redemption still being something Vaarsuvius is striving for, with the reader able to fill in "they do/don't get it," even if Rich might have a preference for what they fill in which will be different from mine.

Ultimately, "Redemption is a rare and special thing" having the second half "it's entirely or almost entirely limited to PCs" would add unwanted bathos to Miko's death scene, but there's still a real chance that's what it's going to come down to. The explicitly stated words in the comic are already valid; numerous characters have not found redemption (Miko, Bozzok, Crystal, Kubota, Tsukiko, ...etc....) and none have, yet (unless you take the position that Redcloak's brother needed redemption for ever being on board with the Plan, which I don't).
Redcloak, maybe, but I think the story's pretty clear that his goal being Good doe snot preclude his methods being Evil.
Shojo? I didn't think he was responsible for the goblin crusades...
Also, it's more like "redemption is are and special..and limited to the people who have enough time in their life to accomplish it."
Sucks, but it's true.

[Peelee]

I, meanwhile, am wondering who the genocidal autocrat is.

Malak fits the bill, IMO.

[Kish]

Has to be someone Lacuna considers Rich to have gone out of his way to humanize and reform.

[Peelee]

Has to be someone Lacuna considers Rich to have gone out of his way to humanize and reform.

Malack reads as a yuan-ti-like-creature to me, but calls himself a lizardfolk, so thats kinda humanized. Well, humanoid-ized, really.

[Aquillion]

Hmm. Regarding why the main characters get redemption arcs when secondary ones don't... there's a rule of storytelling that you obviously tell stories about the most interesting people in the setting.

So we get redemption arcs for V and Belkar, even though it's rare, because a story where eg. Miko was the main character would be more boring and more depressing.

[Ruck]

Hmm. Regarding why the main characters get redemption arcs when secondary ones don't... there's a rule of storytelling that you obviously tell stories about the most interesting people in the setting.

So we get redemption arcs for V and Belkar, even though it's rare, because a story where eg. Miko was the main character would be more boring and more depressing.

And, more to the point, this story is about the members of the Order first and foremost, not Miko.

[zimmerwald1915]

And, more to the point, this story is about the members of the Order first and foremost, not Miko.
On the other hand, what distinguishes the Order of the Stick from everyone else, apart from having the camera on them, is their being too dumb to know when to quit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html).

Not the sort of people who you'd expect to get a redemption arc.

I'm fully on board with the idea that any such thing is just a tease, anyway.

[Ruck]

On the other hand, what distinguishes the Order of the Stick from everyone else, apart from having the camera on them, is their being too dumb to know when to quit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html).

Not the sort of people who you'd expect to get a redemption arc.

I'm fully on board with the idea that any such thing is just a tease, anyway.

If any such redemption arc is a tease, then the complaints about it existing at all are irrelevant. If it's not, though, then the complaints boil down to "side characters I like more than the main characters didn't get the focus and the redemption arcs that the main characters do." And that's more due to the definition of protagonists vs. secondary characters than any personal traits of either.

And if the Order are indeed "too dumb to know when to quit," many of the side characters being discussed are "too dumb to know not to get killed (at least not without allies who will prioritize bringing you back from the dead)."

[woweedd]

On the other hand, what distinguishes the Order of the Stick from everyone else, apart from having the camera on them, is their being too dumb to know when to quit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html).

Not the sort of people who you'd expect to get a redemption arc.

I'm fully on board with the idea that any such thing is just a tease, anyway.
Haven't you previously stated the belief that true redemption is impossible, because people don't change?

[zimmerwald1915]

Haven't you previously stated the belief that true redemption is impossible, because people don't change?
Yes. Hence "I'm fully on board with the idea that any such thing is just a tease, anyway."

[Morty]

Of all the complaints I've seen made about this comic, that it doesn't put enough emphasis on genetics and too much on parental influence manages to be both a new one and among the weirder.

[Fyraltari]

Yes. Hence "I'm fully on board with the idea that any such thing is just a tease, anyway."

zimmer*, I thought you were being more positive!

*I can call you zimmer, right?

[zimmerwald1915]

*I can call you zimmer, right?
Of course.

And positive is one thing. Unprincipled is another.

[woweedd]

Yes. Hence "I'm fully on board with the idea that any such thing is just a tease, anyway."
Isn't that in opposition to both Rich's writing, and the evidence of human senses?

[zimmerwald1915]

Isn't that in opposition to both Rich's writing, and the evidence of human senses?
No. It is not.

[Fyraltari]

Of course.

And positive is one thing. Unprincipled is another.
Thank you.
How did you get "unpricipled" from that?

[zimmerwald1915]

Thank you.
How did you get "unpricipled" from that?
Going back on a previously-held and defended foundational opinion would be unprincipled.

[Fyraltari]

Going back on a previously-held and defended foundational opinion would be unprincipled.

Changing your mind wouldn't be.

[woweedd]

No. It is not.
Which are you saying that to?

[zimmerwald1915]

Changing your mind wouldn't be.
Changing your mind about a foundational principle is the definition of unprincipled.


Which are you saying that to?
Both.

[Fyraltari]

Changing your mind about a foundational principle is the definition of unprincipled.
Not that would be not having principles. Deciding that a formerly held principle does not, in fact, deserve that status is not being unpricipled.

[zimmerwald1915]

Not that would be not having principles. Deciding that a formerly held principle does not, in fact, deserve that status is not being unpricipled.
I disagree.

[Kish]

Changing your mind about a foundational principle is the definition of unprincipled.
I'd say something about the perspectives of the Lawful again, but this time, I think even most people here who consider themselves Lawful would balk at the level of inflexibility being argued for.

Let the record state that I pride myself on my utter lack of principles by Zimmer's definition. If you can convince me that something I believe is wrong, I will cast it aside with demonic enthusiasm.

(You probably can't, but that's because I'm an egomaniac.)

[Fyraltari]

I disagree.
Duly noted.

I'd say something about the perspectives of the Lawful again, but this time, I think even most people here who consider themselves Lawful would balk at the level of inflexibility being argued for.
For the record, if I believed that the Alignment system had value beyond D&D-related material (and let's be generous, fiction in general), I'd probablybe aiming for that "Let's all do our part" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html) place.

[Kish]

Words aren't as important as people.

[Emanick]

Everyone should care.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'd say something about the perspectives of the Lawful again, but this time, I think even most people here who consider themselves Lawful would balk at the level of inflexibility being argued for.

Let the record state that I pride myself on my utter lack of principles by Zimmer's definition. If you can convince me that something I believe is wrong, I will cast it aside with demonic enthusiasm.

(You probably can't, but that's because I'm an egomaniac.)

See also the lirics about proving that water has memory in Storm by Tim Minchin?

Grey Wolf

[zimmerwald1915]

Fight the good fight; let's all do our part.

[Fyraltari]

Let's all do our part: fight the good fight.

So you average at "Who's a good dog? You are!"?

[zimmerwald1915]

So you average at "Who's a good dog? You are!"?
I suppose.

[Kish]

See also the lirics about proving that water has memory in Storm by Tim Minchin?

Grey Wolf
Yes indeed.

[martianmister]

Hey, let's not get carried away!

[Peelee]

Fight the good fight. I can't list more than one or it'd be damn near the whole top row.