Great weapon fighting style.

[stoutstien]

before factoring in feats and other options is great weapon fighting dead weight? If my math is correct it comes out to a ~1.34 damage increase if you only allow reroll of weapon dice (this is with 2d6) I haven't finished factoring if allowing rerolls of riders but I want to see if my math is crazy off first.

[Mr.Spastic]

It makes you average role per die higher. Instead of 3-4 it is closer to 4-5. With something like a Greataxe you can go from a 1 or a two to a 12. On paper it may not seem like it does all that much but you will be very grateful to have it when it does. Also, the only other option for a fighting style if you are going two handed weapons is Defense. I would take 1-2 more average damage over 5% less of a hit chance every day.

[OldTrees1]

Depends on the die size:
Gain on a 1dN:
= (2dN - 1 -2)/N
= (N+1-1-2)/N
= (N-2)/N
= 1 - 2/N

1d4 -> 1d4 + (1-2/4) -> 1d4 + 1/2
1d6 -> 1d6 + (1-2/6) -> 1d6 + 2/3
1d8 -> 1d8 + (1-2/8) -> 1d10 + 3/4
1d10 -> 1d10 + (1-2/10) -> 1d10 + 4/5
1d12 -> 1d12 + (1-2/12) -> 1d12 + 5/6
2d4 -> 2d4 + 2(1-2/4) -> 2d4 + 1
2d6 -> 2d6 + 2(1-2/6) -> 2d6 + 4/3

So the extra damage hovers around +1 damage with a range from +2/3 (Pike) to +4/3 (Greatsword) with the current weapons I can see.

[lunaticfringe]

I mean I generally take Defense or Archery if I plan on taking Great Weapon Master. Archery is 2 Dexterity ASIs to hit with Ranged weapons so I don't feel completely useless if/when I have to break out a bow. Defense is half a shield all the time. Which one really depends on my starting Dex, if it's 14+ I'll lean towards Archery and switch hit.

GWM means I care less about my rolled damage because I'm getting a consistent +14/15+ damage on my attacks, the rolled damage is just icing on the cake.

Just my opinion about it.

[strangebloke]

It's a marginal increase, but if you're building for damage, there's no reason not to take it.

It makes GWF feel a lot better, which is of course the main point.

This is particularly true if you have a greataxe.

[GlenSmash!]

I saw a poster once who scrapped it and made Dueling Style work with any weapon held in one or two hands as long as its the only weapon you are holding.

I liked that idea.

[Misterwhisper]

I saw a poster once who scrapped it and made Dueling Style work with any weapon held in one or two hands as long as its the only weapon you are holding.

I liked that idea.

That just makes a two handed drastically better than a one hander and makes the gap between two weapon fighting and the rest much worse.

[Asmerv]

I think of it like this: It has a chance to trigger a whopping 56% of all attacks with a greatsword and it almost always puts a smile on your face when it does. In the instances when it doesn't trigger (less than half of all attacks), you're already happy because it's overwhelmingly likely that you already have at least a 7 total on the dice.

Overall, it feels very enjoyable to use and I think that makes it a worthy pick. Triggers often and it feels satisfying when it does.

I wouldn't pick it if I wasn't planning on using a greatsword though.

[mer.c]

I've been using this:

Each time you deal damage with a melee weapon wielded in two hands, you can reroll one damage die and use either total. The weapon must have the two-handed property for you to gain this benefit.*

Gets the same thing accomplished, but it stacks up better vs. the alternatives, feels better IMO, and has the added benefit of evening out the average damage of 2d6 weapons vs. 1d12 weapons (as in they go from a 20% spread to a 1.003% spread). Keeps 1d12s superior for extra crit dice. And it gives you some really satisfying distributions that make sense thematically:


3d6 drop lowest (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1DF09DIAuWFbUykVxqJvbEXHfa8Ci2Fn7)
2d12 drop lowest (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kCNx8s1MzTKINp_WHPnSQrQSR6UR6x-B)

*This stipulation is there because I reworked Duelist to apply to versatile weapons wielded in two hands.

[strangebloke]

That just makes a two handed drastically better than a one hander and makes the gap between two weapon fighting and the rest much worse.

Not without feats.

If you consider each weapon set just by itself, its pretty hard to argue for anything other than archery, but if you go to the melee options S&B is hard to beat. +2 AC or +3 damage a round? AC is pretty nice.

Since both the dueling style and GWF basically add the same thing, but GWF less so, I'd say that with fighting styles (but without feats) S&B is even better than GWF.

The only way that GWF catches up is thanks to GWM being one of the most overpowered feats in the game.

[Misterwhisper]

Not without feats.

If you consider each weapon set just by itself, its pretty hard to argue for anything other than archery, but if you go to the melee options S&B is hard to beat. +2 AC or +3 damage a round? AC is pretty nice.

Since both the dueling style and GWF basically add the same thing, but GWF less so, I'd say that with fighting styles (but without feats) S&B is even better than GWF.

The only way that GWF catches up is thanks to GWM being one of the most overpowered feats in the game.

I didn’t say anything about feats.

Twf is already the low man on the totem pole. (An incorrect comparison consider on totem poles the symbol on the bottom was the most important not the least)

Take twf at level 5 with the style to go with it.

You will be doing 1d6 + 3 maybe 4, three times a round if your bonus action is a available.

That is 19.5 damage if 16 stat 22.5 if 18 stat


A great sword with this form of dueling would be doing 2d6 + 5 or 6.

That is 24 if 16 stat or 26 if an 18, with only one weapon, no bonus action, and a free ha d if you need it for like casting or something.

It gets even worse later with things like haste, level 11 bonus attack or whatever.

[Pex]

The overall average damage increase across the campaign may be balanced, but players don't usually feel the average. They feel a roll of 1 and 2 become a 4 and 6 with a great sword. They feel a great axe roll of 2 become an 11. The once in a while great sword double 2s becoming double 1s or the great axe 2 becoming a great axe 1 stings, but even a great sword 1 2 becoming a 3 4 and great axe 2 becoming a 6 is good enough to be worth it. It's the fun of rerolling a 1 or 2 even getting a 3 is an accomplishment. It's good the math behind it all isn't overpowering. The game functions and the player has his fun. Win-win.

[stoutstien]

I need to graph it but +1 hit and + 1 damage should replace duelist and +2 moved to 2hf. New twf would equal +1 AC and ~+1 damage.
Now to see what to do about protection..

[strangebloke]

I didn’t say anything about feats.

Twf is already the low man on the totem pole. (An incorrect comparison consider on totem poles the symbol on the bottom was the most important not the least)

Take twf at level 5 with the style to go with it.

You will be doing 1d6 + 3 maybe 4, three times a round if your bonus action is a available.

That is 19.5 damage if 16 stat 22.5 if 18 stat


A great sword with this form of dueling would be doing 2d6 + 5 or 6.

That is 24 if 16 stat or 26 if an 18, with only one weapon, no bonus action, and a free ha d if you need it for like casting or something.

It gets even worse later with things like haste, level 11 bonus attack or whatever.


Yes, but you said that Dueling would become ascendantly good, to the point that nothing else would be chosen. That's patently false.

For one thing, archery covers a completely different niche. For another, defense is still at least arguably good if that's your focus.

[LudicSavant]

before factoring in feats and other options is great weapon fighting dead weight? If my math is correct it comes out to a ~1.34 damage increase if you only allow reroll of weapon dice (this is with 2d6) I haven't finished factoring if allowing rerolls of riders but I want to see if my math is crazy off first.

Depends on several factors.

- Are you playing the RAW version, or the Sage Advice version? RAW version synergizes with more stuff, and thus can get more benefit.
- If the RAW "it affects things like Divine Smite" version, do you have mechanics like that? How much damage are you getting from them?
- How many attacks do you get? Damage-per-hit scales better when you have more hits.
- How many crits do you get? Better dice rolls scales better when you have more crits.

If you only allow reroll of weapon dice, then it's a fairly hard sell. But then, it's not like you have something better to pick if you're a GWM Champion who already has the Defense style.

If you go with the "allows rerolls of riders" ruling then it is a lot easier to make worthwhile.

[Misterwhisper]

Yes, but you said that Dueling would become ascendantly good, to the point that nothing else would be chosen. That's patently false.

For one thing, archery covers a completely different niche. For another, defense is still at least arguably good if that's your focus.

I did not say that at all, not even close.

I said that that change to dueling makes two handed drastically better than one handed.

Then I pointed out how it makes the gap between two weapon fighting and one weapon even worse.

I never mentioned the other fighting styles at all.