Mystic as a Sorcerer Subclass

[Vorpalchicken]

What would you kind folks think of this suggestion? I think it would solve the power disparity/alien system problem that mystics have. I know there would be a lot of abilities to squeeze into it's first level sorcerous origin but I think it may be doable.

How about at 1st level:
The ability to use Int or Cha as a casting stat (this is almost a ribbon)
A form of zero cost Subtle Spell that works only on Sorcerer spells (I know this is kinda huge. This could be problematic but I think it is Mystic-defining)
An expanded list of spells from which the Mystic can pick (like Warlocks) to better represent the subclass. Psychic-related things and a bit of healing perhaps?
A psychic attack cantrip.

I've thought less about higher level sorcerous origin features
At 6th level:
At will no action short range telepathic communication. (Previously the Mystic could do this with an action with a Subtle Message if that cantrip was taken.)
Proficiency in Int saves (or Wis if the character already has Int, or Cha if the character has Int and Wis)

At 14th level:
I was considering the choice of an extra rider and slight damage buff to the psychic cantrip or extra psychic damage to weapon attacks. Maybe both?

At 18th level:
Something between Psionic Body and Spectral Form?
Maybe immune to poison and disease, you no longer age, and the "escape death on a 10 or higher on a d20" ability. Also a once per long rest ghostly form.

Obviously this needs work. As an added bonus you could possibly use the spell point system for this but then you could possibly extend that system to other sorcerers (or perhaps all casters?)

[dejarnjc]

What would you kind folks think of this suggestion? I think it would solve the power disparity/alien system problem that mystics have. I know there would be a lot of abilities to squeeze into it's first level sorcerous origin but I think it may be doable.

How about at 1st level:
The ability to use Int or Cha as a casting stat (this is almost a ribbon)
A form of zero cost Subtle Spell that works only on Sorcerer spells (I know this is kinda huge. This could be problematic but I think it is Mystic-defining)
An expanded list of spells from which the Mystic can pick (like Warlocks) to better represent the subclass. Psychic-related things and a bit of healing perhaps?
A psychic attack cantrip.

I've thought less about higher level sorcerous origin features
At 6th level:
At will no action short range telepathic communication. (Previously the Mystic could do this with an action with a Subtle Message if that cantrip was taken.)
Proficiency in Int saves (or Wis if the character already has Int, or Cha if the character has Int and Wis)

At 14th level:
I was considering the choice of an extra rider and slight damage buff to the psychic cantrip or extra psychic damage to weapon attacks. Maybe both?

At 18th level:
Something between Psionic Body and Spectral Form?
Maybe immune to poison and disease, you no longer age, and the "escape death on a 10 or higher on a d20" ability. Also a once per long rest ghostly form.

Obviously this needs work. As an added bonus you could possibly use the spell point system for this but then you could possibly extend that system to other sorcerers (or perhaps all casters?)



Balance-wise it could probably work, though the subtle-spell aspect would need some fine tuning, but I doubt such a move would please those of us whom really want a distinct and unique mystic/psionic class.

[Ganymede]

Is mysticism a bloodline, tho? I was under the impression that mysticism is trained, not inborn.

[carrdrivesyou]

IMHO, if you want a psionic sorcerer subclass, this looks decent. Although you aren't far off the mark, Potent Psionics at 8th level isn't much of an issue as far as damage scaling is concerned. On the contrary, the dissipation instead of death ability is CRAZY OP. The only thing that comes close to rivaling it is the Zealot Barbarian's Rage Beyond Death; so there is a published precedent for something of that caliber to exist.

The only issue I could see is that each of the others classes will likely obtain a psionic subclass as well. So that will throw off balancing issues.

My personal predictions are as follows:
Mineral Warrior Fighter
Nomad Ranger/Rogue
Mindbender Wizard or Bard (like a more potent Enchanter)
Immortal Barbarian (although this seems derivative of the Zealot)

Just my thoughts.
-Carr

[Vorpalchicken]

Is mysticism a bloodline, tho? I was under the impression that mysticism is trained, not inborn.

It doesn't have to necessarily be a bloodline.
"Sorcerers carry a magical birthright conferred upon them by an exotic bloodline, some otherworldly influence, or exposure to unknown cosmic forces."

edit. I feel that there has to be some initial talent to train. And the training is the leveling-up part.

[lunaticfringe]

So how we have dealt with Psionics as Existing Spells is remove Components (for the most part, sometimes they make sense) and replace them with Power Displays found here (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-alternate-rules/)(scroll down).

So when you start casting a spell weird stuff happens and people in the vicinity can tell something is up and you are probably the cause. Subtle removes the Power Display.

[Vorpalchicken]

So how we have dealt with Psionics as Existing Spells is remove Components (for the most part, sometimes they make sense) and replace them with Power Displays found here (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-alternate-rules/)(scroll down).

So when you start casting a spell weird stuff happens and people in the vicinity can tell something is up and you are probably the cause. Subtle removes the Power Display.

I don't mind that direction. Especially since free subtle spell may be too much. Now that I think of it, maybe just removing verbal components to all the Mystic spells would suffice. Those comic book villains are always putting their fingers on their temples or waving their hands.

[Wildarm]

I like it. I would force the class to use INT and provide enough bite to encourage someone to choose this over wizard.

Suggestions:

Level 1:

Mind Thrust available as a cantrip. 1d10 Scaling targetting INT. Strong and provides the main flavor for the character.

Some sort of defense feature:
Kinetic Shield: Shield Spell 1/SR. Increased to 2/SR at Level 8
or
Kinetic Armor: 13 Natural AC

Subtle Spell: INT Mod/LR or 1/SR
Reduced Spell List - Remove all evocations from Sorcerer List (That is a huge chunk of the list)
Expanded Spell List - For each spell removed due to above add a communication, mind control or force/psychic damage spell

Level 6:
Telepathy 120'
Read Surface Thoughts: Advantage on Insight checks

Level 14:
Control Mind: Dominate Person 1/SR

Level 18:
You Cease aging and you are immune to all forms of disease and poison
Psionic Body: Usable 1/LR. Lasts 10 minutes. Resistance to all damage types. If you die in this form you reform 1d3 days later somewhere on the same plane.

[Damon_Tor]

Is mysticism a bloodline, tho? I was under the impression that mysticism is trained, not inborn.

IIRC, in Dark Sun, someone with innate psionic ability is called a Wilder.

In his Happy Funtime Hour video-blog, Mike Mearls has been rebuilding the various mystic orders as subclasses of other classes, such as the Soulknife Monk. I don't see why there couldn't be a "wilder" sorcerer bloodline.

[lunaticfringe]

IIRC, in Dark Sun, someone with innate psionic ability is called a Wilder.

In his Happy Funtime Hour video-blog, Mike Mearls has been rebuilding the various mystic orders as subclasses of other classes, such as the Soulknife Monk. I don't see why there couldn't be a "wilder" sorcerer bloodline.

Everyone had innate psionic potential in Dark Sun, everyone started with a Wild Talent (minor power). You weren't a Wilder, you were just alive.

Also that's what should have happened in the first place. Cramming all of D&D Psionics in one class is stupid.

[Ganymede]

IIRC, in Dark Sun, someone with innate psionic ability is called a Wilder.

In his Happy Funtime Hour video-blog, Mike Mearls has been rebuilding the various mystic orders as subclasses of other classes, such as the Soulknife Monk. I don't see why there couldn't be a "wilder" sorcerer bloodline.

I like this idea. It is way better than the "here is one class that lets you make a psychic fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard" thing we have now.

[Kane0]

I like the concept.

Bloodline: Wilder
Level 1
- Extra Cantrip (Mind Thrust)
- Ignore Verbal spell components of sorcerer spells
- Bonus spells (one each for spell levels 1-5, every Sorc bloodline should have these)

Level 6
- Add CHA bonus to Psychic damage from spells

Level 14
- 120' Telepathy (two ways, any language)
- Applying Metamagic to your Enchantment spells costs 1 less Sorcery point, to a minimum of 0.

Level 18
- As action spend 5 Sorcery Points to shed mortal form for up to one minute, gaining resistance to all damage and if you are killed you reform on the same plane in 1d3 days.

[R.Shackleford]

Is mysticism a bloodline, tho? I was under the impression that mysticism is trained, not inborn.

Technically, you would need the right genetics to be smart enough to be able to be trained.

*shrug*

[Ganymede]

Technically, you would need the right genetics to be smart enough to be able to be trained.

*shrug*

Yeah, and we all live in a deterministic universe and all choice is an illusion, so that's another obstacle.

[R.Shackleford]

Yeah, and we all live in a deterministic universe and all choice is an illusion, so that's another obstacle.

Try all you want, you have limits that you will NEVER be able to surpass thanks to your genetics.

Limits to your strength, agility, wisdom, intelligence, and everything else. Try to out run Bolt, defend against Lebron, or out do Grigori Perelman in math... You have limits given to you pre-birth. Part of those genetics will determine how hard you try too, and in what areas, funny enough.

All thanks to genetics... Which in D&D terms can be "sorcerous origin".

So a Sorcerer subclass fits right in.

Grit and determination may get you to your limit, but if that limit is bottom of a barrel then that's as far as you can go.

[Nifft]

Try all you want, you have limits that you will NEVER be able to surpass thanks to your genetics.

Magic wuz here, hakkkin ur genetixorz with PSIENCE.

[Mr.Spastic]

I made a homebrew for a Telekenitic Sorcerer.

Level One:
Minor Telekinesis:
Get a free invisble mage hand.
Telekinetic Spells:
Get certain spells added to their spells known at higher levels.
Level 1: Catapult
Level 2: Levitate
Level 3: Fly
Level 4: Resilient Sphere
Level 5: Telekinesis

Level Six:
You can spend 2 Sorcery points to choose a second target for the any of you telekinetic spells.

Level Fourteen:
Your weight limit for the spells Telekinesis and Levitate doubles. And mage hand carrying capacity becomes your own carrying capacity. You can also use you bonus action to attack with your mage hand dealing 1d8+cha force damage.

Level Eighteen:
For one minute per long rest you can sheiks yourself with energy giving you resistance to all damage for the duration.

[Ganymede]

Try all you want, you have limits that you will NEVER be able to surpass thanks to your genetics.

Limits to your strength, agility, wisdom, intelligence, and everything else. Try to out run Bolt, defend against Lebron, or out do Grigori Perelman in math... You have limits given to you pre-birth. Part of those genetics will determine how hard you try too, and in what areas, funny enough.

All thanks to genetics... Which in D&D terms can be "sorcerous origin".

So a Sorcerer subclass fits right in.

Grit and determination may get you to your limit, but if that limit is bottom of a barrel then that's as far as you can go.

...what did you think you were replying to?

[Nifft]

What would you kind folks think of this suggestion? I think it would solve the power disparity/alien system problem that mystics have. I know there would be a lot of abilities to squeeze into it's first level sorcerous origin but I think it may be doable.

How about at 1st level:
The ability to use Int or Cha as a casting stat (this is almost a ribbon)
A form of zero cost Subtle Spell that works only on Sorcerer spells (I know this is kinda huge. This could be problematic but I think it is Mystic-defining)
An expanded list of spells from which the Mystic can pick (like Warlocks) to better represent the subclass. Psychic-related things and a bit of healing perhaps?
A psychic attack cantrip.

I've thought less about higher level sorcerous origin features
At 6th level:
At will no action short range telepathic communication. (Previously the Mystic could do this with an action with a Subtle Message if that cantrip was taken.)
Proficiency in Int saves (or Wis if the character already has Int, or Cha if the character has Int and Wis)

At 14th level:
I was considering the choice of an extra rider and slight damage buff to the psychic cantrip or extra psychic damage to weapon attacks. Maybe both?

At 18th level:
Something between Psionic Body and Spectral Form?
Maybe immune to poison and disease, you no longer age, and the "escape death on a 10 or higher on a d20" ability. Also a once per long rest ghostly form.

Obviously this needs work. As an added bonus you could possibly use the spell point system for this but then you could possibly extend that system to other sorcerers (or perhaps all casters?)
The auto-Subtle thing reminds me of what Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved did -- you could take a feat to be a Psion, and all spells with the [Psi] keyword were always purely mental actions for you. Other spells worked normally, so your Fireballs were still loud & obvious, but your Suggestions and Charms were more subtle.

I like the cantrip idea.

Int is a downgrade for a Sorcerer -- I'd rather see a Psionic Wizard school ("Erudite") which offers the same Psionic spell perks.

If you're going to put extra damage on weapon attacks, do it at 6th level -- that's when the lack of an Extra Attack starts to hurt. Bump up the extra damage at 14th level or so, in addition to something significant.

One of my pet peeves with Sorcerer in general is too few things to spend Sorcery points on (other than Metamagic which is awesome but very samey across subclasses). So my suggestion would be to add more things to spend Sorcery points on -- Defense Modes, for example.

[Vorpalchicken]

Int is a downgrade for a Sorcerer


I was intending for either Int or Cha to be usable. Just a ribbony option to satisfy the trope

I'm not all that concerned with the innate versus learned sorcerer ability thing since really anyone with a 13 charisma can pick up a level of sorcerer. Who knows where psychic ability comes from?

As far as defense, I know it's weak so far. One thing I didn't want to do was overshadow the other sorcerer origins.
Maybe this could be done like the hunter ranger archetype with some tough choices for abilities at each sorcerous origin level? So you could choose a defense option by sacrificing another ability.

[Tetrasodium]

What would you kind folks think of this suggestion? I think it would solve the power disparity/alien system problem that mystics have. I know there would be a lot of abilities to squeeze into it's first level sorcerous origin but I think it may be doable.

How about at 1st level:
The ability to use Int or Cha as a casting stat (this is almost a ribbon)
A form of zero cost Subtle Spell that works only on Sorcerer spells (I know this is kinda huge. This could be problematic but I think it is Mystic-defining)
An expanded list of spells from which the Mystic can pick (like Warlocks) to better represent the subclass. Psychic-related things and a bit of healing perhaps?
A psychic attack cantrip.

I've thought less about higher level sorcerous origin features
At 6th level:
At will no action short range telepathic communication. (Previously the Mystic could do this with an action with a Subtle Message if that cantrip was taken.)
Proficiency in Int saves (or Wis if the character already has Int, or Cha if the character has Int and Wis)

At 14th level:
I was considering the choice of an extra rider and slight damage buff to the psychic cantrip or extra psychic damage to weapon attacks. Maybe both?

At 18th level:
Something between Psionic Body and Spectral Form?
Maybe immune to poison and disease, you no longer age, and the "escape death on a 10 or higher on a d20" ability. Also a once per long rest ghostly form.

Obviously this needs work. As an added bonus you could possibly use the spell point system for this but then you could possibly extend that system to other sorcerers (or perhaps all casters?)


hmm... I'm going to say "#$&^ no"! Charisma is already dramatically overly favored in 5e & WotC has neglected to put in any of the int based casters other than wizard. You are suggesting that a solution to that is to create one of the few int based caster classes as a sorcerer subclass that uses int or charisma? This is a terrible idea

[Vorpalchicken]

Well it's still a sorcerer. It's not like I'm adding "yet another charisma caster."

I didn't think taking away the sorcerer fundamentals was a good idea. It's practicably going to be just Int or just Cha depending on how it's built.

edit-
Thought of a tentative expanded spell list (a la Warlock, not freebies)
1st: Dissonant Whispers, Cure Wounds
2nd: Calm Emotions, Lesser Restoration
3rd: Sending, Speak With Dead
4th: Arcane Eye, Compulsion
5th: Scrying, Wall of Force

Had to make some tough choices but I didn't want to give our Psychic the kitchen sink. I found Sorcerers actually have a not bad selection of psychic type spells already, especially the newer ones. If someone has a better list, I'm listening.

I appreciate the feedback, even the negative. If enough people think it's a terrible idea then I will probably conclude that it's a terrible idea.

[Tetrasodium]

Well it's still a sorcerer. It's not like I'm adding "yet another charisma caster."

I didn't think taking away the sorcerer fundamentals was a good idea. It's practicably going to be just Int or just Cha depending on how it's built.

The problem is that there are already three different frontloaded charisma based casters (sorcerer/warlock/sorta paladin despite needing a couple levels for casting) & those three all have a wide variety of options that exclusively use xharisma as their primary stat. Compare the MAD needs of EK/AT to the ultra-SAD of a hexblade who can dip into sorc to pickup more arcane spells of several options including divine casting. Your suggestion would add yet another spell list for the scorlockadin to plunder on their quest to N-level deeep punpunesque loophole abuse.