Corran
2018-12-06, 11:58 AM
Hello everyone!
I've been seeing lots of discussions about clerics recently, and I was hoping for some input about a cleric using spirit guardians. More specifically, I was asking myself how should a cleric PC plan her turns in order to get a good use out of this spell. Even more specifically, I was hoping to do that under two separate assumptions that I will present right below.
Now, I realize that spirit guardians may not always be the best spell to use, but lets put that aside for a moment. Also, sometimes I might have to use my actions, bonus actions and reactions for something situationally urgent, but lets put that aside too. I am doing that so I can free up my action economy, so I can find ways to fill it with things that would best complement my use of spirit guardians (and which of course I can change on the spot if I need to use something like healing word, inflict/cure wounds or whatever with my actions, bonus actions and reactions).
So lets think a bit like this:
--------------------- Action--------------------Bonus Action--------------Reaction
Round 1………..Spirit Guardians
Round 2
Round 3
I would also like to focus the discussion on two extreme scenarios.
1) On the first scenario, the enemies choose to focus the ball of radiance that my cleric has become, because they think that dropping her unconscious (or at the very least making her lose concentration) is the smart thing to do.
2) On the second scenario, the enemies try to scatter, perhaps focusing other allies or they could just create some distance and fall back on ranged attacks, so I dont get too many of them inside my spirit guardians' radius, because they think that this is the best way for them to handle the PC's.
These are extreme scenarios indeed, meaning that the enemies need not resort to either of those. But if spirit guardians is already a good choice of my action and concentration, such enemy behaviour is what I should look out and be prepared for in order to make a good use of this spell. So in my mind, if I am prepared to counter these two approaches that the enemies can adopt, I am fine for all the rest normal cases of enemy behaviour that logically fall in between of these two extremes. So planning for these extremes means that I will proabably make better use of this spell against enemies that would try to minimize its impact, and also that possibly I would expand the scenarios where casting this spell would be a good idea.
Lets talk a bit about each of these two extreme scenarios, so that we can understand better what kind of things we would like to do with our actions, bonus actions and reactions in each one of them.
Thinking about strategy
So, in extreme scenario 1 (enemies focus our cleric), we need to look to get features and/or look for things to do during our turn, that would help us deal with incoming attacks and with the consequences of taking damage. So dodging might be a good use of an action (in subsequent turns, that is after casting SG). Feats that boost concentration (like warcaster and resilient con) are also an investment worth thinking about. Perhaps a self cast sanctuary at round 2 might be another thing to consider (assuming the DM allows sanctuary to go on despite SG doing damage). Or we could just use our bonus action with spiritual weapon, since in this scenario the enemies are nicely stuck around us so we dont have to rely on the slow movement of SW for it to be effective. Maybe we could take a dip for the shield spell (and possibly the absorb element spell as well), or we could just take a feat like defensive duelist. Generally, things that boost our concentration and AC (hp and saves secondarily), or just things that help mitigate some of the attention from the enemies that SG drew on us (such as sanctuary) are worth thinking about. So taking one such combination (lets take dodge and spiritual weapon and the shield spell), our action economy would start looking like this (just an example, not necessarily the ideal plan):
-----------------------Action---------------------Bonus Action ----------Reaction
Round 1…………..Spirit Guardians...……………………………………………...….....Shield (if necessary)
Round 2…………..…....Dodge......……………...…....Spiritual weapon
Round 3…………....…..Dodge...………………….….….Spiritual weapon
In extreme scenario 2 (enemies try to scatter), we need to think differently. Here, boosting defenses is not so important. We should look for things that deny or hinder enemy movement (spirit guardians itself helps a bit in that respect, because it slows enemies down for their first few feet of movement) and we should also possibly look for buffing our OA's. So things like warcaster (which allows spell OA's), or non-concentration spells that create harmful zones or difficult terrain (not many I can think of, earth tremor and grease if we dip one level in wizard perhaps? Ice storm is also an option for tempest clerics I believe), or just using our actions to attempt to grapple an enemy, or even something like the sentinel feat as well as boosts to our own mobility if we can get our hands on some (longstrider perhaps?). These, and stuff along these lines, are options worth considering. So our action economy would start looking differently, in that we would like to keep our reactions available for OA's, spiritual weapon wouldn't be a great option because of its low movement rate, BB or grappling would certainly be better uses of our action than dodge which we used for example when enemies focused us in the previous scenario, etc. So our action economy, if say we are using our action to grapple and our reactions for OA's, would look like this (just an example, not necessarily the ideal plan):
------------------------Action--------------Bonus Action-----------Reaction
Round 1…………...Spirit Guardians..............................……..…...OA (if allowed one)
Round 2…………….…..Grapple................................. ......……....OA (if allowed one)
Round 3………….……..Grapple................................. ......…......OA (if allowed one)
Conclusion
So, first and foremost we need to (1) consider the various investments we need to make (easy example, a feat like warcaster seems to offer us many benefits under every scenario, so it is probably a good feat to take). Then we need to (2) decide on a course of action. And after we have what we think is the best course of action, (3) we see how else we can fill our action economy. For example, if we were to assume for a moment that dodge was the best use of our action under extreme scenario 1, then our actions are pretty well covered for that encounter. With my bonus actions I assumed spiritual weapon, but maybe there is something better I can do. And even if in the end I decide that SW is indeed the best use of my bonus actions during that encounter, I still need to find (if possible) a use for my bonus action during the first turn, ie when I cast spirit guardians. In the same example, I assumed shield as an available reaction. That might not be the case of course since shield is not a cleric spell, but even if we mc'ed to get it, I would still like to have another and possibly less resource-draining reaction available, because unless I was playing with spell points (and I never have to know if that would be the case), then we probably need to use shield a bit more cautiously, so there might be turns when it would be better to have something else to do with our reaction. And in the example I used for the second extreme scenario, while our actions and reactions are busy with grapple and OA's, we would need to find a good use of our bonus actions.
Any thoughts?
I've been seeing lots of discussions about clerics recently, and I was hoping for some input about a cleric using spirit guardians. More specifically, I was asking myself how should a cleric PC plan her turns in order to get a good use out of this spell. Even more specifically, I was hoping to do that under two separate assumptions that I will present right below.
Now, I realize that spirit guardians may not always be the best spell to use, but lets put that aside for a moment. Also, sometimes I might have to use my actions, bonus actions and reactions for something situationally urgent, but lets put that aside too. I am doing that so I can free up my action economy, so I can find ways to fill it with things that would best complement my use of spirit guardians (and which of course I can change on the spot if I need to use something like healing word, inflict/cure wounds or whatever with my actions, bonus actions and reactions).
So lets think a bit like this:
--------------------- Action--------------------Bonus Action--------------Reaction
Round 1………..Spirit Guardians
Round 2
Round 3
I would also like to focus the discussion on two extreme scenarios.
1) On the first scenario, the enemies choose to focus the ball of radiance that my cleric has become, because they think that dropping her unconscious (or at the very least making her lose concentration) is the smart thing to do.
2) On the second scenario, the enemies try to scatter, perhaps focusing other allies or they could just create some distance and fall back on ranged attacks, so I dont get too many of them inside my spirit guardians' radius, because they think that this is the best way for them to handle the PC's.
These are extreme scenarios indeed, meaning that the enemies need not resort to either of those. But if spirit guardians is already a good choice of my action and concentration, such enemy behaviour is what I should look out and be prepared for in order to make a good use of this spell. So in my mind, if I am prepared to counter these two approaches that the enemies can adopt, I am fine for all the rest normal cases of enemy behaviour that logically fall in between of these two extremes. So planning for these extremes means that I will proabably make better use of this spell against enemies that would try to minimize its impact, and also that possibly I would expand the scenarios where casting this spell would be a good idea.
Lets talk a bit about each of these two extreme scenarios, so that we can understand better what kind of things we would like to do with our actions, bonus actions and reactions in each one of them.
Thinking about strategy
So, in extreme scenario 1 (enemies focus our cleric), we need to look to get features and/or look for things to do during our turn, that would help us deal with incoming attacks and with the consequences of taking damage. So dodging might be a good use of an action (in subsequent turns, that is after casting SG). Feats that boost concentration (like warcaster and resilient con) are also an investment worth thinking about. Perhaps a self cast sanctuary at round 2 might be another thing to consider (assuming the DM allows sanctuary to go on despite SG doing damage). Or we could just use our bonus action with spiritual weapon, since in this scenario the enemies are nicely stuck around us so we dont have to rely on the slow movement of SW for it to be effective. Maybe we could take a dip for the shield spell (and possibly the absorb element spell as well), or we could just take a feat like defensive duelist. Generally, things that boost our concentration and AC (hp and saves secondarily), or just things that help mitigate some of the attention from the enemies that SG drew on us (such as sanctuary) are worth thinking about. So taking one such combination (lets take dodge and spiritual weapon and the shield spell), our action economy would start looking like this (just an example, not necessarily the ideal plan):
-----------------------Action---------------------Bonus Action ----------Reaction
Round 1…………..Spirit Guardians...……………………………………………...….....Shield (if necessary)
Round 2…………..…....Dodge......……………...…....Spiritual weapon
Round 3…………....…..Dodge...………………….….….Spiritual weapon
In extreme scenario 2 (enemies try to scatter), we need to think differently. Here, boosting defenses is not so important. We should look for things that deny or hinder enemy movement (spirit guardians itself helps a bit in that respect, because it slows enemies down for their first few feet of movement) and we should also possibly look for buffing our OA's. So things like warcaster (which allows spell OA's), or non-concentration spells that create harmful zones or difficult terrain (not many I can think of, earth tremor and grease if we dip one level in wizard perhaps? Ice storm is also an option for tempest clerics I believe), or just using our actions to attempt to grapple an enemy, or even something like the sentinel feat as well as boosts to our own mobility if we can get our hands on some (longstrider perhaps?). These, and stuff along these lines, are options worth considering. So our action economy would start looking differently, in that we would like to keep our reactions available for OA's, spiritual weapon wouldn't be a great option because of its low movement rate, BB or grappling would certainly be better uses of our action than dodge which we used for example when enemies focused us in the previous scenario, etc. So our action economy, if say we are using our action to grapple and our reactions for OA's, would look like this (just an example, not necessarily the ideal plan):
------------------------Action--------------Bonus Action-----------Reaction
Round 1…………...Spirit Guardians..............................……..…...OA (if allowed one)
Round 2…………….…..Grapple................................. ......……....OA (if allowed one)
Round 3………….……..Grapple................................. ......…......OA (if allowed one)
Conclusion
So, first and foremost we need to (1) consider the various investments we need to make (easy example, a feat like warcaster seems to offer us many benefits under every scenario, so it is probably a good feat to take). Then we need to (2) decide on a course of action. And after we have what we think is the best course of action, (3) we see how else we can fill our action economy. For example, if we were to assume for a moment that dodge was the best use of our action under extreme scenario 1, then our actions are pretty well covered for that encounter. With my bonus actions I assumed spiritual weapon, but maybe there is something better I can do. And even if in the end I decide that SW is indeed the best use of my bonus actions during that encounter, I still need to find (if possible) a use for my bonus action during the first turn, ie when I cast spirit guardians. In the same example, I assumed shield as an available reaction. That might not be the case of course since shield is not a cleric spell, but even if we mc'ed to get it, I would still like to have another and possibly less resource-draining reaction available, because unless I was playing with spell points (and I never have to know if that would be the case), then we probably need to use shield a bit more cautiously, so there might be turns when it would be better to have something else to do with our reaction. And in the example I used for the second extreme scenario, while our actions and reactions are busy with grapple and OA's, we would need to find a good use of our bonus actions.
Any thoughts?