New take on max DPR ranged build: can it be improved?

[Nadlor]

Hi, everyone.

I've been trying to build a good DPR ranged build the usual way (hand crossbow + crossbow expert + sharpshooter). Initially I assumed straight Battlemaster with archery style was the best (and more straight-forward) way to go, but I've been giving it some thought and I believe I can squeeze more out of the build if I start with one level in Hexblade, then go Eldritch Knight, and finally switch to Lore Bard (I know, weird choice, but stay with me) for the last 6 levels. The build would be Hexblade Warlock 1/Eldritch Knight Fighter 13/Lore Bard 6, with all levels taken in that order. I would use a Half-Elf instead of the more intuitive Variant Human (I believe it would pay off soon enough).

The idea is to be able to use both Hex and Hexblade's Curse from level one. From there, I would go full Eldritch Knight in order to get extra attack at levels 6 and 12. At level 14 I can get level 3 wizard spells, and therefore start using Haste instead of Hex (I can do this at level 14 by switching a previous any-school slot).

I know at level 20 full Fighters get an extra attack that might give them a late DPR advantage, but this build can cast Bestow Curse (a Bard spell) from level 19. The beauty of Bestow Curse is that, when cast as a level 5 spell, it doesn't require concentration, and therefore can be stacked with Haste. At level 19 this is an Eldritch Knight Fighter 13/Lore Bard 5 for a total Caster Level of 9, allowing the casting of Bestow Curse as a 5th level spell. This means it can stack Hexblade's Curse, Haste and Bestow Curse for insane DPR (even higher than the one you would get by going all 20 levels in Fighter).

With standard 27-point buy and Half-Elf, I could start with STR 8, CON 15, DEX 14, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 17 (using CHA for crossbow attacks from level 1 because of Hexblade). No need for more than 14 DEX as a ranged build with medium armor, and as an Eldritch Knight I can focus on buff/utility spells which don't require a high INT (shield, absorb elements, disguise self, darkness, haste...)

For feats, I would go for Crossbow Expert at level 5, Elven Accuracy (for 18 CHA) at level 7, +2 CHA or Sharpshooter at level 9, Sharpshooter or +2 CHA at level 13, and Resilient (CON) at level 18.

I can use Hex AND Hexblade's curse from level 1. I get 2 attacks at level 5 (extra bonus attack from Crossbow Expert), 3 at level 6, 4 at level 12, and 5 at level 14 (from haste, which implies dropping Hex). I can add Bestow Curse to the combo at level 19.

The Build is definitely competitive from level 1. At late levels, it gains huge versatility with Lore Bard skills and spells, especially when considering that with 20 CHA and Eldritch Strike, Bard debuffs will always work. It's also very SAD. Some disadvantages are that it works better against bosses, and that there's some degree of competence for the bonus action (Crossbow Expert, Hex, Hexblade's Curse, Cutting Words at the end). In any case, I think that it works pretty good and that it has some very nice synergies. Two cherry-picked 3rd-level spells from any list at level 20 is the icing on the cake.

At levels 19-20, against a tough boss, it can:

- Round 1: cast Haste (action), impose Hexblade's Curse (bonus action), and attack once (extra attack action from Haste).
- Round 2: cast Bestow Curse as an action (wich will almost certainly land if previous attack was a hit, thanks to Eldritch Strike) and attack twice (extra attack action from haste which then triggers bonus attack action from Crossbow Expert).
- Round 3: obliterate the bad guy in style by going Action Surge and doing a total of 9 (EDIT: it's actually 8) attacks. Considering a +3 weapon, each of them would nave an average damage of 32 hit points (3,5+5+3+10+6+4,5). That's an average DPR of 288 (EDIT: it's actually 256) if all attacks hit. That DPR could actually be quite accurate in real gameplay with some group synergy, since any source of advantage would mean triple advantage (Elven Accuracy), which in turn synergizes very well with the 19-20 crit. range from Hexblade's Curse.

Can this be improved? Right now, I'm only having some doubts on the order of level and feat progression, but I think this is solid enough as it is. Any thoughts?

P.S.: Does anyone know of any other concentration spell that can be upcast so that it doesn't require concentration anymore?

[Wildarm]

For Melee a Smite spam build would probably do about as much damage but on the first turn.

For Ranged max DPS you're probably running close to optimal there. Possibly try and acquire an Oathbow and drop Crossbow Expert altogether? Your DPS would likely be higher with an extra 3d6 damage added to each attack at the cost of a single attack. This also frees up your bonus action.

One question how are you getting 9 attacks with action surge?

3 + 3(Action surge) + 1(haste) + 1(CBE Bonus action)

You can also look at getting some +3 ammunition or special ammuntion to get even more damage on top. I'd focus on gear more than build to try and significantly improve your DPS as Action Surge + GWM/SS with 3-4 attacks is generally the highest DPS you can get.

[Nadlor]

For Ranged max DPS you're probably running close to optimal there. Possibly try and acquire an Oathbow and drop Crossbow Expert altogether? Your DPS would likely be higher with an extra 3d6 damage added to each attack at the cost of a single attack. This also frees up your bonus action.

3d6 extra damage is 10,5 extra damage per attack on average. With a maximum of 4 attacks per round, that's 42 extra damage. With no buffs, 42 extra damage is a good trade-off for one extra attack. With all buffs on, missing one attack implies missing 32 points of damage, plus an additional 8 hit points (2 for each of the remaining 4 attacks) from using the oathbow (damage of 1d8+0) instead of a hand crossbow +3 (1d6+3 damage). When factoring critical chance, an extra attack is probably worth it. And you sacrifice +3 to hit (which can't be compensated) in exchange for advantage (which could be achieved in a different way, depending on the party). Besides, the oathbow applies only to one enemy per day. Tough call. The fact that you can use the bonus action for something else (Spiritual Weapon through Magical Secrets?) makes the oathbow a possible optimal choice, although you depend on getting that particular item and, besides, Crossbow Expert has other advantages. Again, tough call.


One question how are you getting 9 attacks with action surge?

By making a mistake. It's indeed a maximum of 8 attacks in a round, for 256 average DPR (if all attacks hit, that is).

Whispers Bard could improve the damage 3d6 per round by expending one use of inspiration (through Psychic Blades). Such a marginal DPR benefit is not worth losing the other Lore Bard advantages, though.

[MaxWilson]

Remark in passing: counting on Hexblade's curse (30' range) seems like a bad idea for a ranged build. At that range you're practically a thrown weapon build.

[Misterwhisper]

That is spending 3 rounds to make one good round worth of attacks, you would have been better off just spending 3 rounds attacking.

Whatever Fighter, with some way of attacking with a bonus action: PAM/CBE/TWF whatever


Round 1:

Attack action: 4 attacks
Bonus action: 1 attack
Action Surge: 4 attacks

Round 2:

4 attacks
1 Bonus attack

Round 3

4 attacks
1 Bonus attack


That is 19 attacks:

Lets assume you are just using a 1d6 weapon, which is average or maybe even a hair low depending on your set up.
+3 weapon

That is: 1d6 + 8 damage per attack at normal not counting crits or other class abilities/items, average is 11.5 damage per attack.
19 attacks is 218 damage using nothing but action surge.
With a much better to hit than the other build, and using no feats or anything.
If you throw in SS and somehow assume that all attacks hit like in the first post that is 408 damage.

Alternate:

Using a Longbow and bracers of Archery with a +3 weapon

4 attacks per round + 1 action surge is 16 attacks at 1D8 + 10 each: 232 damage from much better range and a better crit damage slightly
Add in SS cheese and assuming everything hits: 392

Again this is not using any class abilities or resources other than action surge.

For an EK he could haste himself with the longbow if he wants adding 3 more attacks in those 3 rounds for 73.5 more damage if hasted.
For a Battlemaster they can greatly increase their chance to hit, disarm, or multiple other things adding a 1d12 damage when they hit various numbers of times.
A champion has a much better chance to crit on those attacks and gets an extra fighting style and at high levels the self heal can do wonders.
I have never been too impressed with samurai but for the longbow build they could give themselves advantage on all of that and get a bonus attack without haste

[Nadlor]

Remark in passing: counting on Hexblade's curse (30' range) seems like a bad idea for a ranged build. At that range you're practically a thrown weapon build.

You can move to 30' range, curse, and move out. AFAIK the curse doesn't end once cast just because you move further than 30' away from the target.



That is: 1d6 + 8 damage per attack at normal not counting crits or other class abilities/items, average is 11.5 damage per attack.
19 attacks is 218 damage using nothing but action surge.
With a much better to hit than the other build, and using no feats or anything.
If you throw in SS and somehow assume that all attacks hit like in the first post that is 408 damage.

Best Damage Per First Three (or First Two) Rounds is a different optimization exercise, that's for sure. Especially when considering a lvl 20 Fighter can Action Surge twice in the same encounter. And I don't think there's anything that can reach the damage in two rounds of an optimized PAM and GWM (I assume that's what you meant with SS) lvl 20 melee Fighter build. With a ranged build, you trade maximum theoretical damage for security and accuracy. In the proposed build, you also trade damage in the first two rounds for damage in subsequent rounds, and can actually get (I think) the highest ranged weapon DPR.


Alternate:

Using a Longbow and bracers of Archery with a +3 weapon

4 attacks per round + 1 action surge is 16 attacks at 1D8 + 10 each: 232 damage from much better range and a better crit damage slightly
Add in SS cheese and assuming everything hits: 392

Again this is not using any class abilities or resources other than action surge.

Well, the build above can do 347.5 damage in the proposed first three rounds (without depending on a magic item other than the magic weapon you're also taking into account). I agree if the fight is over in 3 rounds, it's not the optimal strategy. If it goes on for longer, it can be. And while I agree that DPR doesn't tell the whole story, I think that with all buffs on no other build can get to that DPR using ranged weapon attacks (spell attacks are a different story), but I'm interested in checking if I'm wrong.


For an EK he could haste himself with the longbow if he wants adding 3 more attacks in those 3 rounds for 73.5 more damage if hasted.

Not really. Casting Haste would win the EK 3 attacks at the cost of 4 (because an action would be lost on the casting). In short fights, no buffs can match 2 action surges and devoting all actions to attack. Longer fights is where buffs can turn the tide.


For a Battlemaster they can greatly increase their chance to hit, disarm, or multiple other things adding a 1d12 damage when they hit various numbers of times.
A champion has a much better chance to crit on those attacks and gets an extra fighting style and at high levels the self heal can do wonders.
I have never been too impressed with samurai but for the longbow build they could give themselves advantage on all of that and get a bonus attack without haste

All this is true and those builds can be the best at certain conditions. But I don't think they can achieve a higher ranged weapon DPR (I can't think of anything that can other than choosing Whispers instead of Lore for Psychic Blade, but the difference is negligible). And Hexblade's Curse also grants 19-20 crit. range (not 18-20, but still). As for the "do other things" that these builds can do besides DPR (like self heal), sure! But 6 levels of Lore Bard also allow for "other things". Actually, IMO the versatility of this build far surpasses the versatility of lvl 20 Fighter builds, while also being an excellent damage dealer on top.

[Ganymede]

I don't know... a huge blindspot in your build is his/her lack of preparation for cooking competetions. You haven't invested anything into helping you deal with food preparation, recognizing herbs and spices, and plate presentation.

I mean, come on... are you going to shoot arrows at the dishes of the other chefs?

[Ganders]

In your plan, you've got a total of 1 attack after 1 round, 3 attacks after 2 rounds, and 12 attacks after 3 rounds.

What if you action surge in round 1 in order to cast Bestow Curse?

Now you have a total of 2 attacks after 1 round, 7 attacks after 2 rounds, and 12 attacks after 3 rounds.

No harm done, and you get the curse on sooner.

[Skylivedk]

A little too tired to do all the math, but isn't the way to go:
12 ek
5 hexblade
3 sorc

You take Agonizing Blast + Eldritch Smite + whatever.

You use your warlock spell slots to smite in crits, you prebuff with AoA and draw as many attacks as possible and use quickened EB to spike damage. You might even use a heavy crossbow

[Misterwhisper]

A little too tired to do all the math, but isn't the way to go:
12 ek
5 hexblade
3 sorc

You take Agonizing Blast + Eldritch Smite + whatever.

You use your warlock spell slots to smite in crits, you prebuff with AoA and draw as many attacks as possible and use quickened EB to spike damage. You might even use a heavy crossbow

Eldritch smite has to be a weapon you can’t use it with eldritch blast.

You could do it with a bow of some kind though.

[Skylivedk]

Eldritch smite has to be a weapon you can’t use it with eldritch blast.

You could do it with a bow of some kind though.

My point was to use a heavy crossbow for your attacks and quickened EB for your bonus action

[noob]

I don't know... a huge blindspot in your build is his/her lack of preparation for cooking competetions. You haven't invested anything into helping you deal with food preparation, recognizing herbs and spices, and plate presentation.

I mean, come on... are you going to shoot arrows at the dishes of the other chefs?

maybe shooting arrows at the jury can help getting a judgement in your favor?

[TheUser]

The problem is you are not taking into account how much -5 to hit is a big deal.
Especially against boss monsters with 25 AC where this matters most. Single Target DPR is great for taking down high priority targets but most importantly for crapping on bosses.

Arcane Trickster Level 19/ Fighter 1 is the uncontested king of DPR I'm afraid.

Haste Allows for two sneak attacks in a round easily because you can attack once using the haste action and ready an attack using your normal action.

22d6+10[+6 for a +3 weapon] damage isn't as much as 4 sharpshooter attacks (4d6+80[+12 with a +3 hand crossbow]) but when you factor in that it's 90% more likely to hit against a 25 AC target then it shapes into much better odds.

(Quick Math: Normal +to hit is +13 with archery fighting style at level 20 which becomes +8 with sharpshooter, if you are rocking a +3 hand crossbow, you are now at +11 so you have to roll a 14 to land your hits on a 25 AC target; a 35% hit chance. An arcane Trickster not using sharpshooter has a +16 to hit under the same circumstances will have a 60% hit chance....

Unless you can guarantee yourself a +3 bow and advantage on the attack you to bring yourself up to a 72% hit chance WITH ELVEN ACCURACY you are going to miss a whole heck of a lot...(The Arcane Trickster will have a 93.6% chance to hit under these same circumstances without sharpshooter).

So if you have no advantage the Rogue deals ~55 DPR against a 25 AC target
while the Fighter deals ~37

If both have advantage and Elven Accuracy this becomes closer at
~87 DPR for the Rogue and ~76 for the Fighter

Not to mention that the Crossbow fighter is limited to a 120ft range while the Arcane Trickster's 600ft Long Bow

EDIT: in the event that you are against a target with low-moderate AC the Arcane Trickster can use Sharpshooter and gain ~20 DPR)

[Nadlor]

I don't know... a huge blindspot in your build is his/her lack of preparation for cooking competetions.

Lore Bard gives me expertise in two skills, and any optimizer worth their salt would choose Classic Cooking and Nouvelle Cuisine. I didn't specify that in the build description because I assumed it was obvious.


What if you action surge in round 1 in order to cast Bestow Curse?

That's clearly better in terms of efficiency but doesn't allow for senseless "maximum damage in one turn" bragging. All in all, a suboptimal choice.


My point was to use a heavy crossbow for your attacks and quickened EB for your bonus action

I agree that, when taking into account spell damage, 3 levels in Sorcerer and 2 levels in Hexblade are the way to go precisely because of the combo you mention. You can actually build an Eldritch Knight 13/Hexblade 2/Divine Soul 5 and have a ridiculous nova round with 4 longbow attacks (thanks to Haste) + 4 agonizing Eldritch Blast attacks (bonus action quickened EB) + 3 additional longbow attacks (Action Surge). With an Oathbow and Bracers of Archery, each of the 7 longbow attacks deals 3d6+2 extra damage and is done with triple advantage. And with two rounds to set the combo up, all 11 attacks can benefit from both Hexblade's Curse (+6 damage and 19-20 crit range) AND Bestow Curse (+1d8 damage), which level 5 Divine Souls have access to (and which can be cast as a level 5 spell by this build). That has to be the maximum single-target ranged Damage Per Turn in the game!


The problem is you are not taking into account how much -5 to hit is a big deal.
Especially against boss monsters with 25 AC where this matters most. Single Target DPR is great for taking down high priority targets but most importantly for crapping on bosses.

Arcane Trickster Level 19/ Fighter 1 is the uncontested king of DPR I'm afraid.

I agree that DPR builds based on SS/GWM don't work well against opponents with very high ACs, although Elven Accuracy and a source of advantage can do wonders to mitigate the problem in most cases. In any case, your calculations have the Fighter doing 4 crossbow attacks in a round. A lvl 20 Fighter can do 5 attacks with Crossbow Expert, 6 if Hasted (like your Arcane Trickster is), and 10 when using action surge. Arcane Tricksters are awesome and two sneak attacks per round when self-Hasted are one of the reasons why, but they still can't reach Fighter-level nova damage (nor that they should, since they shine in so many other things!).

[TheUser]

I agree that DPR builds based on SS/GWM don't work well against opponents with very high ACs, although Elven Accuracy and a source of advantage can do wonders to mitigate the problem in most cases. In any case, your calculations have the Fighter doing 4 crossbow attacks in a round. A lvl 20 Fighter can do 5 attacks with Crossbow Expert, 6 if Hasted (like your Arcane Trickster is), and 10 when using action surge. Arcane Tricksters are awesome and two sneak attacks per round when self-Hasted are one of the reasons why, but they still can't reach Fighter-level nova damage (nor that they should, since they shine in so many other things!).

My mistake: when referring to "fighter" in this context I am talking about OP's build.

If we up the Fighter's damage in this scenario by 25% (the equivalent of adding the extra attack) we see that it still falls behind.

Remember that even on low AC targets the Rogue can easily add sharpshooter to their own attacks for 20 extra DPR.

Essentially unless you are against AC 16 or below enemies in tier 4 anfd have guaranteed advantage the Rogue pulls ahead. And when it doesn't breaks even by being able to also sharpshooter.


The original point is that single target damage builds shine best in boss fights, which in t4 have 25 AC. The other point being that 120ft o range is a big limiting factor in many cases where you have ancient dragons, teleporting wizards and flying angels and demons moving well over that much range in a round.

[Nadlor]

My mistake: when referring to "fighter" in this context I am talking about OP's build.
If we up the Fighter's damage in this scenario by 25% (the equivalent of adding the extra attack) we see that it still falls behind.

The thing about the proposed build is its ability to stack buffs like Hexblade's Curse and/or Bestow Curse, on top of Hex (at low levels) or Haste (at high levels). Which is something that works very good with a high number of attacks per round, and something that an Arcane Trickster 19/Fighter 1 can’t do (he can only use Haste, which is admitedly awesome in that build).

Assuming +3 weapons, each Rogue attack does 11d6+8 damage (46.5 average damage per hit) with a +16 attack bonus. Against AC 25, that's 27.9 average damage per attack, so with Haste you get 55.8 average damage per round.

Each Fighter attack with SS and Hexblade's Curse does 1d6+8+10+6 damage, for 27.5 average damage on hit, and a +11 attack bonus. Against AC 25, that's only 9.625 average damage, so with 5 attacks you're still below the Rogue. But you can always choose not to use SS and settle for an average damage per hit of 17.5 and a higher hit chance, meaning 10.5 average damage per attack, or 52,5 average damage per round. Almost the same DPR as the rogue, but still slightly below. You need to add Bestow Curse to have an average damage on hit of 22, an average damage per attack of 13.2, and an average damage per round of 66. This is without advantage, and assuming that Rogue can Sneak Attack without it (which can be situational depending on enemy mobility and initiative order, but let’s say it’s ok). So, in this very specific situation, droping SS and having Hexblade’s Curse is enough to have almost the same DPR as the Rogue build. With all buffs, DPR stays clearly ahead of the Rogue’s. And we haven't even considered Action Surge.

With advantage and Elven Accuracy, the Rogue has a 93.6% hit chance, and therefore can do 87 DPR. The Hasted Fighter can now use SS and keep a 72.54% hit chance. With Hexblade’s Curse on, that’s 99 DPR and a 19-20 crit range (which synergizes very well with Elven Accuracy). We don’t need Bestow Curse. And still we’re not considering Action Surge!

The other build proposed above (Eldritch Knight 13/Hexblade 2/Divine Soul 5) can forego the bonus action attack to quicken an Eldritch Blast with 4 rays, each of them taking advantage of Hexblade’s Curse (and, if needed, Bestow Curse). At that point he can use a bow for slightly expanded damage and greatly expanded range. That's 8 attacks in a round (without using Action Surge): DPR skyrockets. If we consider specific items (oathbow, bracers of archery) for more static bonuses to damage, which I don’t want to do, the difference is ridiculous.

What I mean is that Arcane Trickster 19/Fighter 1 is a very nice build, very effective against very high AC bosses. But it’s not the undisputed king of DPR, especially if you need to go nova to kill something NOW. A melee build with Booming Blade can actually do more DPR, even considering the slight drop in accuracy (but we all know the advantages of ranged damage in aspects like targeting and safety).


Remember that even on low AC targets the Rogue can easily add sharpshooter to their own attacks for 20 extra DPR.

Which would only apply to 2 attacks instead of 5-8 attacks. And which is generally a bad idea because base damage with Sneak Attack is too high to make the loss of accuracy worth it. With very high base damage, -5 to hit for +10 damage is not usually a good trade.

To use the above example, if the Rogue wants to add SS to her two attacks with Elven Accuracy, his average damage per hit improves from 46.5 to 56.5 (not that much), but his hit rate drops from 93,6% to 72,54%. Average damage per round drops from 87 to 82. Not worth it. It can be a moderately effective tactic at lower ACs, but then the accuracy of the Fighter build also increases and DPR difference rises even more.


Essentially unless you are against AC 16 or below enemies in tier 4 anfd have guaranteed advantage the Rogue pulls ahead. And when it doesn't breaks even by being able to also sharpshooter.

This is a huge exaggeration. Against an enemy with AC 22 (an ancient red dragon, for example), the Rogue with triple advantage hits 98.44% of the time without SS and 87.50% of the time with SS. Average damage per round is 91.5, or 99, respectively. Against that AC, the Fighter with advantage also hits 87,5% of the time with SS, and is rocking 120 DPR thanks to Hexblade’s Curse. And this is without Bestow Curse, without Action Surge, without quickened Eldritch Blast (if Divine Soul Sorcerer instead of Lore Bard), and without specific magic items.

[Skylivedk]

My mistake: when referring to "fighter" in this context I am talking about OP's build.

If we up the Fighter's damage in this scenario by 25% (the equivalent of adding the extra attack) we see that it still falls behind.

Remember that even on low AC targets the Rogue can easily add sharpshooter to their own attacks for 20 extra DPR.

Essentially unless you are against AC 16 or below enemies in tier 4 anfd have guaranteed advantage the Rogue pulls ahead. And when it doesn't breaks even by being able to also sharpshooter.


The original point is that single target damage builds shine best in boss fights, which in t4 have 25 AC. The other point being that 120ft o range is a big limiting factor in many cases where you have ancient dragons, teleporting wizards and flying angels and demons moving well over that much range in a round.

Sorry for being too lazy/too away from my laptop to do the math myself, but:
Would 3 or 5 levels of Battlemaster not help a lot in the boss fight you mention?
Maybe two in warlock for the EB... It should significantly increase the odds of landing the sneak attack (whereafter the sorc dip is of course again nothing to disregard either).

Have you run the different scenarios of strong alpha strike versus probability of landing vs ways of adding hits?

[TheUser]

Taking four turns of setup for Hex, hexblade's curse, haste and Bestow Curse (melee range spell; prepare to get wooped) and then using the term "do damage now" seems pretty counter intuitive to me....

Also you'll need to spend a 5th level slot to avoid concentration on Bestow Curse and a failed Wisdom save from a boss monster (likely at disadvantage because of Eldritch Strike but that's what Legendary Saves are for).

Anyway, the Rogue still does half the damage they are optimised to do with their 1 turn to cast haste (since they still get their one haste attack to sneak attack on that turn).

Where as casting haste, bestow curse, hex and hexblade's curse as ramp-up turns means you're out at least 4 turns of fully optimised damage (because you can't cast bonus action spells unless your standard action spell was a cantrip), 2 of which you either dumped action surge to get attacks off (and hence less action surge damage you'd have gotten later) or just did 2 attacks with those 2 turns...

The "I want damage now" build for me is either the Crossbow battlemaster who is willing to frontload his manuever dice on precision attack, or the Samurai Bowman who will Action Surge two turns in a row with auto triple-advantage sharpshooter on 8 longbow attacks both rounds. Since T4 bosses tend to have loads of HP banking on killing them in 2-4 rounds only works in those lovely 6-7 man parties or groups of 4 with other burst Kings (Paladins....).

Casting Haste in a DPS race is only feasable when you plan to have the boss monster alive for 5+ turns or you have a familiar in your backpack with a ring of spell storing (surprisingly common for me in AL).

[Nadlor]

Would 3 or 5 levels of Battlemaster not help a lot in the boss fight you mention?

Maybe. The build currently uses Eldritch Knight instead of Battlemaster. Strictly regarding DPR, BM allows for the early addition of superiority dice damage, which can be burnt in a single round. EK allows stacking Haste and Bestow Curse, which should last for the full encounter. If the fight is over in 2 rounds, straight lvl 20 Battlemaster might be the best option, actually (4 attacks per action, two action surges, superiority dice). If the fight takes longer, Haste + other buffs end up being more optimal.


Taking four turns of setup for Hex, hexblade's curse, haste and Bestow Curse (melee range spell; prepare to get wooped) and then using the term "do damage now" seems pretty counter intuitive to me....

This is a fair concern, but setting up all buffs takes only 1-2 turns. You don't use Hex once you have access to Haste (they're both concentration), so you need to set up Haste (Action), Hexblade's Curse (bonus action, not a spell) and, potentially, Bestow Curse (Action). With Action Surge, you can set it all up in one round and attack once, too (probably right before Bestow Curse to trigger Eldritch Strike). Or you can forget about Bestow Curse and save the Action Surge for 3 more attacks (4 in total ) in the very first round with Hexblade's Curse already on. That's very good.

In many cases, spending a full action to set up Bestow Curse will be suboptimal. But Haste + Hexblade's Curse is fast and will be the best option against all bosses unless they go down very easily. For the build with Sorcerer Levels (and quickened EB), Bestow Curse can apply to 8 attacks per turn from round 2, and end up being worth it if the fight takes more than 3-4 rounds. Legendary Resistance is a concern, but if I was the boss I would save it for things scarier than 1d8 per attack from one PC (Hold Monster, Stunning Strike, etc.)

With that build, Crossbow Expert is not needed and Mobile can be a good substitute (also helps in minimizing the risk associated with landing Bestow Curse).

[Nhorianscum]

How did you hit 9 attacks in the OP? Counting 3 attacks (normal)+3 (surge) +1 (BA) +1 (haste). So assuming 8 attacks our first build is 256/acc at +3 or 232/acc with a plain hand xbow modified by items/crit/race?

Somewhat curious how a simple Divine soul9/Champion 11 stacks up to this as we can crank up an extended holy weapon OOC and bestow curse as a bonus action while slamming down a potion of speed or a ring of spell storing on an ally.

So 2nd round would be ((3d8+1d6+10+5)x8)/acc) before critical. This gives 256/acc average modified by critical before weapon or racial adds? (280 at +3). By comparison the mentioned warlock/sorc multi at +3 deals 288/Acc here.

With 1+8+5 (14) attacks per combat we hit 448/acc modified by crit/items/race with follower ring we get 4+8+5 (17) for 544/acc modified by crit/items/race average.

Without haste we get 224/acc on turn 2 or 352/acc per combat before crit/items/race. Using animate objects turn 2 (no holy weapin) gives 248/acc but can be worse depending on modifiers.

Operating under *only* holy weapon/12 hours a day we get 110/acc before crit/racial/items vs a full fighters 92.5/acc modified by the same.

Progression is a shameful fighter 11-Sorc 9 pulling magic innate and a sorc level early for hex of you really want early access to the gimic on a not-ek. Fighter was used here because oathbow samurai or xbow EK/monster hunter are just plain better here.

[Nadlor]

How did you hit 9 attacks in the OP? Counting 3 attacks (normal)+3 (surge) +1 (BA) +1 (haste).

This was a mistake that was acknowledged when it was brought up but never edited in the OP. I have added the edit now.


Somewhat curious how a simple Divine soul9/Champion 11 stacks up to this as we can crank up an extended holy weapon OOC and bestow curse as a bonus action while slamming down a potion of speed or a ring of spell storing on an ally.

Bestow Curse would still need an action (Hexblade's Curse, which is not a spell, is the one that can be set up as a bonus action, but that needs Hexblade). In any case, I haven't considered potions. At that point, I might as well consider spell scrolls and add some other classes to the combo, but I don't want the build to be too dependant on equipment (and with scrolls I risk failing the spellcasting ability check if I try to cast a spell of a higher level than the ones I can cast, anyway).

With Bestow Curse + Hexblade's Curse + Haste, each attack does 29 damage (1d6+5+10+1d8+6). That's 232 damage before hit/crit chance in a nova turn (256 with a +3 weapon). That's better than Bestow Curse + Holy Weapon (although harder to set up if Divine Weapon is cast OOC). If I can drink a potion of speed, then I can add Hex to the combo and get 32,5 damage per attack (260 per turn, or 284 with a +3 weapon). Again, more than Bestow Curse + Holy Weapon + Haste, although it takes longer to set up. So no clear winner, and it would depend on how long the fight is.

Using a bow and quickening Eldrith Blast (which would require the Eldritch Knight 12/Hexblade 2/Divine Soul 5 build), we have 7 bow attacks at 30 damage (2d8+5+10+6) and 4 EB attacks at 21 damage (1d10+5+1d8+6). That's 294 damage in one turn before hit/crit chance. 314 with a +3 weapon. 352,5 if I add Hex to all 11 attacks because I'm hasted through a potion. With an Oathbow, Bracers of Archery and magical ammunition... but let's not go there.

Without Bestow Curse nor potion shenanigans, that's actually very easy to set up and still delivers a very respectable 264,5 damage in a nova round before hit/crit chance.

[Nhorianscum]

Woops, missed that fix.

Right, dropped hexcurse from warlock. Figured external haste was worth considering though I did drop in unhasted numbers.

Checked as a fun little whatif. Factoring in assumed 27% crit nohaste holy weapon pulls pretty close to hasted hexcurse (248 vs 249 at +0 isn't awful). EB is well ahead here.

So not completely ideal for max possible DPR. Looking at this has sparked an interest in rolling a holy weapon bow user built for turn 1 now that isn't awful before tier 4.