As a player, how would you feel about this?

[Jon_Dahl]

I have an NPC in my game who, via DM fiat with no basis in RAW, has powerful visions about important global events in his dreams. The PCs have already often faced his prophecies and understood the full extend of his abilities. This NPC dwarf is very old, and I was thinking about the following scenario:

The NPC dwarf seer on his deathbed: "Come, my child... My time is up, but I wish to you give you my powers... If you dare to pay the price, they are yours..."
(The PCs will not be able to understand whom he is speaking to, but there will be only PCs present at that moment. They will have to decide who is the "child". The dwarf will not be able to answer any questions or communicate in any way.)
Once someone goes close to him, the dwarf will attempt to gently grab that person by the wrist. I will then say:
"Your character can receive the power to see powerful visions about important near-future events but it will cost you 4500 XP. This is a unique power and not found from any books. I will explain more about this power if you accept and pay the XP. Will you accept?"
Whatever the answer, the dwarf will die within one round after this episode from old age.

[Troacctid]

For 4500 xp? No thanks. I'll pass. I can already get quest hooks for free on the tavern bulletin boards.

[Arbane]

I'd take it. Knowledge is power, and having a built-in plot-dispenser gives the GM extra reasons to want to keep my character around.

[Selion]

I would accept, I like fancy powers more then efficiency. By the way, usually in my tables NPCs never speak using game terms like "4500 xp" (the same way it's forbidden to PCs), but I have seen it before in a one shot with some friends.

[Fizban]

How much xp do I have?

I'd lean towards taking it, but that would depend on what I'd actually heard and seen previously. If it seems like "how this works" is something I can actually use in some way, then I'd be interested to see it. If I think "how this works" is just going to be the DM telling me a thing in exchange for most of a level, I'll pass.

[Florian]

I´d be pretty pi**ed off by you for breaking my immersion in such a brutal way.

Beyond that, I wouldn't do it. In D&D/PF, I just don't like abilities that I don't have full understanding and direct control of. Other system? Sure, but not D20.

[Jon_Dahl]

I guess there might be some confusion here. When I say "I will say", I mean that I, the real person, Jon Dahl, say the words completely off-game. This is off-game. No one talks about XP in the game. What happens in the game is that the dwarf grabs the PC's wrist and then dies. Later on prophetic dreams happen or not, depending on the player's choice.

[BWR]

Depends on the character, the game, and the GM.
Not all of my characters would want to do things that way. If the game treated oracles as Greek ones, they would be basically useless and a waste of xp. If I could trust the GM to give good value for money xp, and the situation was dire and it fit my character, then yes.

System has nothing to do with this.

[DeTess]

I'd probably take the deal, but I might come up regretting it later if all I did was pay XP to allow the GM to continue giving plot-hooks in the way he's used to, and it doesn't nothing else for me. If you just want to move the plot-hook visions from the NPC to a PC, just let it happen without paying a cost to an appropriate character.

[Sir Chuckles]

Why make it cost EXP at all? You're not really giving the players an interesting choice, you're either punishing them (with less info/plot hooks) for not taking an EXP penalty or asking a player to fall behind in EXP.

It's a non-mechanical power in exchange for a hard mechanical resource. My recommendation would be to change the cost to something more gamified (occasional saves vs. thing or a permanent and sizable penalty/penalties) or something more in-universe. I'd make it cost an eye or something. Hearing loss. "Every event witnessed costs you a year of your life". Not actual experience points.

[DeTess]

It's a non-mechanical power in exchange for a hard mechanical resource. My recommendation would be to change the cost to something more gamified (occasional saves vs. thing or a permanent and sizable penalty/penalties) or something more in-universe. I'd make it cost an eye or something. Hearing loss. "Every event witnessed costs you a year of your life". Not actual experience points.

yeah, this is actually a far better idea for the cost. He gets the power, but it comes at a price. The easiest way could be that he takes a couple of points of penalty to will saves, but what would be more interesting is that the player becomes more sensitive to his surroundings or whatever. Whenever the player comes into an area where big historical things have happened (like an old massacre, or a big demon got summoned or a god ascended or a legendary king got crowned or something like that) he'd have to pass a will save or get locked into a vision for a bit. Make sure this doesn't happen too often (like once or twice a session), and give the player the option of trying to force this aspect of the gift if they're in an appropriate location (allowing for an interesting way of info gathering).

[RaiKirah]

Whenever the player comes into an area where big historical things have happened (like an old massacre, or a big demon got summoned or a god ascended or a legendary king got crowned or something like that) he'd have to pass a will save or get locked into a vision for a bit. Make sure this doesn't happen too often (like once or twice a session), and give the player the option of trying to force this aspect of the gift if they're in an appropriate location (allowing for an interesting way of info gathering).

This sounds like a lot of fun, and potentially useful for a bbeg fight: teleport the PCs into a fight in a location that would trigger this. Make the save and no big deal, fail it and potentially get locked up for some portion of the fight. To make it not too obnoxious you'd probably want to break the vision up into round length pieces, and have combat relevant info show up after a round or two (weaknesses, how to control an environment trap, disable a dimensional anchor trap, etc.) So that when the PC finally does make the save they can contribute. You can probably only use this once before it becomes gimmicky, but could be interesting for that time.

[zlefin]

I'd want it to be clearer that hte PCs chose exactly who the heir of the power would be. I'd hate to have one of them go close just to check on the old guy only to get selected as the possible heir even if they'd have preferred someone else.

Why can't we just arrange for the NPC to pass his powers on to another NPC? What if the players would prefer that? If they would, then the seer should be able to sense that, and arrange for the powers to be passed on as such.

[Zaq]

Behind the screen, how did you decide on 4,500 XP? Where did that number come from? That may offer a small insight into whether this makes sense.

[Jon_Dahl]

Behind the screen, how did you decide on 4,500 XP? Where did that number come from? That may offer a small insight into whether this makes sense.

I looked up useful stuff from the Permanency spell.

I have to think about Sir Chuckles's idea.

[Selion]

I looked up useful stuff from the Permanency spell.

I have to think about Sir Chuckles's idea.

You could even give temporary penalties everytime he has a vision instead (caused by a physical and mental distress).
I once gave a player a staff able to go back in time, but reversing time for 10 minutes caused a week of exhaustion (-6 Str and Dex and other penalties). Trying to go further back in time would have caused dire consequences in his body's physique. (this power has been useful as a panic button in a group that had not access to resurrection)

[GrayDeath]

Seconding different "prices" for the Visions.

My go would be that every time he has a Vision he suffers -2 to Will saves for a day, and usually only has one vision a week, but can try to force" another vision every other day if he feels the need is great enough (for an increased penalty of -4 to Will saves).


As if I would take it under the stated circumstances, that depends on 3 things, ind escending order of importance.

1.: How strong/important/rare are these Vision pwoers? In a world with Diviniation magic following regular D&D Rules I dont think they are too pwoerful, but lets say its a world where only the Gods can see other places/into the futre, then it suddenly becomes REALLY powerful.

2.: How high Level are we,e rgo how much would 4500xp influence my character in the near future? Its a huge difference if this is done at Level 4 or at Level 14 for example.

3.: How do the other players thinka bout it? if noone else wants the pwoer, I for one would likely take it (as I am a sucker for Plot Knowledge^^)....

[Quertus]

I looked up useful stuff from the Permanency spell.

I have to think about Sir Chuckles's idea.

Fair enough - if the power is "worth" it.

That having been said, I am a fan of having a "party XP" level, and abhor things that cause characters to deviate from that. Die? Get True Resurrected, or bring in a new character at party XP. Craft items? Use XP components, sacrifice vagrants, or otherwise do something to substitute for paying XP.

So, this would really cramp my style.

If look for them to need to consume 4.5k*5=22.5k worth of "medicine" to finally cure the malady that hits when they take this "blessing", rather than pay XP, just to keep the math easy when characters level.

[Jon_Dahl]

Would it be poor form (in some way) to let the player decide what the price is? These are taken from the replies:

1. It costs an eye. The eye will explode and we will have a gore scene, but I will not tell this beforehand. I will just say that it costs an eye.
2. Historical sites trigger temporarily dazing flurry of visions unless successfully save vs. Will save DC 15.
3. Epileptic seizures and -2 unhealable penalty to STR and DEX for 24 hours when receives visions.
4. -2 penalty to Wis for 24 hours when has visions.
5. 4500 XP price.

[DeTess]

Would it be poor form (in some way) to let the player decide what the price is? These are taken from the replies:

1. It costs an eye. The eye will explode and we will have a gore scene, but I will not tell this beforehand. I will just say that it costs an eye.
2. Historical sites trigger temporarily dazing flurry of visions unless successfully save vs. Will save DC 15.
3. Epileptic seizures and -2 unhealable penalty to STR and DEX for 24 hours when receives visions.
4. -2 penalty to Wis for 24 hours when has visions.
5. 4500 XP price.

It's never a bad idea to discuss such things with your players, so no, it's not poor form at all and it increases your chances of the players doing cool stuff with the visions.

[Kish]

Question. What happens if the player says no?

That is, do you have a desired outcome here? If it truly would be an optional power-up for the PC, it makes sense for it to have a price attached to it, but if it's a source of plot hooks that you want the PC to have, then it shouldn't have any price at all. It might still be appropriate for it to impact the character mentally or physically in some way the player is on board with, but nothing like "you lose 4,500 entirely abstracted experience points because I want you to be weaker in exchange for this."

[Florian]

Would it be poor form

The whole thing is developing a bit in a "poor form" direction.

So far, we're still talking about a basic plot and framing device. It´s actually you, as gm, that wants it in and is only of peripheral use to your players, beyond the fact that it is one of their methods the get quests and a little background exposure, if necessary.

You could basically have the oracles soul enter an oyster, clamp shut and open up again to sing/yodel the necessary info when needed.

[Goaty14]

Question. What happens if the player says no?

That is, do you have a desired outcome here? If it truly would be an optional power-up for the PC, it makes sense for it to have a price attached to it, but if it's a source of plot hooks that you want the PC to have, then it shouldn't have any price at all. It might still be appropriate for it to impact the character mentally or physically in some way the player is on board with, but nothing like "you lose 4,500 entirely abstracted experience points because I want you to be weaker in exchange for this."

This. You're either forcing one of the PCs to voluntarily give up the #1 resource in the game (EXP/Levels) in exchange for being the mandatory plot-hook dispenser as you railroad them into going places (at which point the ability should just be free) or you're giving them an optional ability that you think might make their future stuff easier, at which point it should have a cost.

That said, I wouldn't take it myself. The players are well aware of what it does, but I'm not, so really the answer os that everybody here have been putting out are based upon what we think it does, but don't actually know enough to say anything meaningful.

[Warlawk]

As a player, I would think this is a very cool way to become part of the story and develop my character in new and interesting ways.
.
..
...
Wait, you want me to pay 4500 XP to become a plot hook dispenser? Hard pass. Applying mechanical penalties to the players so that you have an easy and convenient way to give plot info is not cool. The idea is very cool and I really dig it, making it cost the players something mechanical in payment, not so much.

Ask yourself this question: Does this ability give the character an increase in personal power that legitimately needs a mechanical penalty to balance it or is this only being done because the books have set the expectation that every ability, no matter how useless, should have a cost.

I think that even causing fatigue or other temporary penalties is a bit harsh for you to dispense a bit of plot info, but very fitting flavor so could be entirely appropriate as long as it isn't abused by the DM (Vision about events weeks away right before a combat encounter for instance).

Here's how I would approach the whole thing. Use the scene you have laid out in your OP, it's cool and flavorful!
Explain the choice to the players BEFORE anyone steps forward, let this be a choice made with full knowledge of the situation.
For cost of the power, I would break this down into two different things. When I as DM use the power to dispense plothook or information I would either apply very minor mechanical penalties, inconvenience instead of incapacitate. IF AND ONLY IF the information provided gives the party a direct advantage over an encounter, apply a more severe penalty. Allow the player the opportunity to "force" the visions to try and gain specific information, in this situation since this is player driven, apply larger and more long lasting mechanical penalties (Fatigued/penalized for a full day etc).

Just my 2c, very cool idea and I really like it, it's just a matter of balancing what is actually being gained by the character with the mechanical cost applied. 3.x already has too many "trap" feats/PRCs/abilities, no need to custom create more.

[Darth Ultron]

I'd pass.

The XP cost is bad enough. While I don't mind having a cost for something, I had better get something good in return.

And that is where my big problem is: What do I get? Also as part of that, in an OOC sense game character abilities are not secret from the player. A player knows what they do. A player does not blinding pick something for their character with the DM sitting back and saying ''oh I will give you the details later".

First, I would want a very useful ability. And that usefulness has to be with I would define as useful...not the DM. So I would not want the ''oh when the Dm feels like it they can send my character a random mess of a vision".

And that would be my second problem: am I just going to get crazy DM spam? Will the DM just say ''noon to the chicken and around the moon pearl is in the river", and then I have the NOT fun mini game of translating that.

Of course, this takes us to the third one where the DM is just a jerk. Like ''chicken'' = bird=fly=travel= so it takes three licks to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop, and so the location is Sigil. There simply is no way to figure out that mess. But sure it makes sense to the DM that knows the answer.

And fourth how often can I use this ability?

And, five, another big one: If I'm going to give up a mechanical thing like XP, then I will get some mechanical benefit, right? Like a +1 insight bonus per level per round that I can add to rolls as I wish?

Really unless I knew the Dm very well and trusted them, I'm just going to say ''bye dwarf".

[Quertus]

Would it be poor form (in some way) to let the player decide what the price is? These are taken from the replies:

1. It costs an eye. The eye will explode and we will have a gore scene, but I will not tell this beforehand. I will just say that it costs an eye.
2. Historical sites trigger temporarily dazing flurry of visions unless successfully save vs. Will save DC 15.
3. Epileptic seizures and -2 unhealable penalty to STR and DEX for 24 hours when receives visions.
4. -2 penalty to Wis for 24 hours when has visions.
5. 4500 XP price.

So, this seems to me to be a war between "game balance and statistical efficiency" and "cool". Personally, I would love to have a character make that kind of sacrifice* to get that kind of cool unique ability.

There's something to be said for letting players make the informed decision to make that sacrifice. There's also something to be said for it being a surprise. Shrug. Know your players. Know what they will enjoy, and, all things being equal, make the game that.

* Now that there's a choice, and I can tailor the sacrifice to the character. But, then, I'm not known for caring about pure optimization.

[Buddy76]

How long have you been playing with this group? I wouldn't take it if I were playing with a DM I didn't know very well. However, if a DM that I trust and know to be good at DMing were to offer me that, I'd gladly accept it because that would lead the story down an interesting path.

[Jay R]

There's no way to know how valuable this power is for me. [It's clearly great for the DM. But is it great for the PC, or for the party.]

If I trust the DM, I take it.
If I don't know if I can trust the DM, I encourage another player to take it.
If it's a Gygaxian DM, I encourage all players to refuse it.

[Quertus]

There's no way to know how valuable this power is for me. [It's clearly great for the DM. But is it great for the PC, or for the party.]

If I trust the DM, I take it.
If I don't know if I can trust the DM, I encourage another player to take it.
If it's a Gygaxian DM, I encourage all players to refuse it.

There is this.

I suppose I should add,

If I think I can make the power work under other GMs, I take it.
If I think I'll likely retire this character after this GM, I'll take it.
If neither of those are true, I'll let someone else have it.

[Katie Boundary]

I push my least favorite party member toward the dying dwarf. Tag, you're it.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I might be tempted to give the ability to a familiar, animal companion, special mount, psicrystal, cohort, DMPC, or planar ally. Given that none of these have XP values that I control, it's likely not possible to do so, but that'd be my choice. I would not want to pay 4500 of my own XP to get an unknown ability that is, at best, of questionable use, especially considering that it grants the DM some license to narrate my PC, which might turn out badly (depending on how the visions are narrated, using emotional descriptions as in "you feel a deep sense of wonder at the magnificence of St. Cuthbert's visage..." would not go down well with me, because St. Cuthbert is a total square (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?55828-Negative-Energy-Ha!-OUR-undead-are-fuelled-by-FUNKITUDE!)).

[Elkad]

Not interested.

I don't need the plot train laying down rails right in my skull.

The XP cost has nothing to do with it. You could flip it and throw in 4500 bonus XP, I'd still turn it down.

[Aegis013]

As many others said there is some question of DM trust on whether to accept it.

But basically having a setting specific Homebrew ability offered up during the story, particularly if it's a fit for my character? As a player I'd be pretty happy to see this.

Since we're using XP totals and not milestone leveling (based on the OP), I'd be willing to risk the price in the game I'm in now with the character I'm playing (A level 5 Healer//Binder gestalt), since XP is a river. If the XP isn't being done that way (being permanently behind gets worse at higher levels and I doubt the a ability would scale well enough to be worth delayed access to higher spell levels) I'd be on board with some of the alternative costs.

If it were my ideal type of game I'd also take it. Since then I'd know it'd be at least interesting and useful enough I wouldn't regret it.

I'd only hesitate if I thought the DM wouldn't use it interestingly.

[KillianHawkeye]

The eye will explode and we will have a gore scene

Just...... WHY?? :smalleek:

[dascarletm]

Taking the deal or not would depend on the character I'm playing. If your players don't divorce self from character then it might be similar to some of the answers on here.

I agree with the others that say you should have a more interesting price. I really like the idea that the visions come when they don't want them sometimes. Make the Will DC dependent on how strong the area is.

I might use this idea, using the visions for sometimes innocuous and comical moments.

[Jon_Dahl]

Just...... WHY?? :smalleek:

Because it's my style. Not having gore scenes would eventually make my players worried about me.

[ericgrau]

For 4500 xp? No thanks. I'll pass. I can already get quest hooks for free on the tavern bulletin boards.

Not interested.

I don't need the plot train laying down rails right in my skull.

The XP cost has nothing to do with it. You could flip it and throw in 4500 bonus XP, I'd still turn it down.

Lol yeah. If it's important to the plot the DM will tell the PCs anyway. Heck it's a free class feature for many paladins, and they dread it because it only means they get to be the plot messenger instead of another PC. This is so common I think your players know it too.

Mechanically the power is totally worth it because anyone behind in xp gets bonus xp and eventually I'll get all the xp back. Without the meta and the real possiblity of PCs getting stuck with nothing to do it's extremely valuable and under-costed. But that will never happen because then the campaign ends.

The only way for it to have any value is for it to work for non-plot purposes in which case it's a boring "DM gives one player all the answers and we don't figure out stuff ourselves" ability.

Easy answer: Make the ability free and make the receiving PC the poor plot messenger for remaining campaign events. Basically it makes DM questgiving easier.

[Melcar]

I have an NPC in my game who, via DM fiat with no basis in RAW, has powerful visions about important global events in his dreams. The PCs have already often faced his prophecies and understood the full extend of his abilities. This NPC dwarf is very old, and I was thinking about the following scenario:

The NPC dwarf seer on his deathbed: "Come, my child... My time is up, but I wish to you give you my powers... If you dare to pay the price, they are yours..."
(The PCs will not be able to understand whom he is speaking to, but there will be only PCs present at that moment. They will have to decide who is the "child". The dwarf will not be able to answer any questions or communicate in any way.)
Once someone goes close to him, the dwarf will attempt to gently grab that person by the wrist. I will then say:
"Your character can receive the power to see powerful visions about important near-future events but it will cost you 4500 XP. This is a unique power and not found from any books. I will explain more about this power if you accept and pay the XP. Will you accept?"
Whatever the answer, the dwarf will die within one round after this episode from old age.

What level? This seems hillariusly cheap... Why not have it add 1 level equivalent... like a template? 4500 exp is way too cheap!

I say this because I believe it’s much more like having permanent foresight on... if this is just in place of a quest giver then it should not cost anything!

[Kish]

4,500 XP would be the cost to permanency a ninth-level spell--if it actually functions like Foresight.

[Doctor Awkward]

"Your character can receive the power to see powerful visions about important near-future events but it will cost you 4500 XP. This is a unique power and not found from any books. I will explain more about this power if you accept and pay the XP. Will you accept?"

No.
If at any course during the campaign I find myself in need of useful bits of plot-relevant information I'll hire a cleric to cast a commune (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commune.htm) spell.

[TiaC]

Yeah, no need for this to have any cost.

Personally, I'd pick a player who isn't too engaged and give them this so they have something else to do.

[Peat]

Assuming I trust you as a GM -

I'd be interested in it, but not at the cost of 4500 XP. I'd be willing to do the version where I might get distracted by historical sites and stuff, because I can always boost my will save to mitigate that and then use it as an advantage at times by trying to deliberately trigger it.

[shaikujin]

I'll give my feedback as well.

Sounds cool, but looking at this from a metagaming angle, this is more of a device for the DM to dispense plot hooks and hints.

How and when it works is at the mercy of the DM. If he has written a plot with a riddle that will hint to players that a catastrophe will strike the town and the players need to fly to avoid the earthquakes/floods/volcanoes, even if the players did not have this ability, the DM is going to tell me using other means, such as the BBEG's notes or some other old seer's prophecies.

If he is going to make the notes/seer's hint vague, he is also going to make this power vague as well in what it reveals.

What's more, it is a good opportunity for the DM to invoke a vision when the character is in combat, then imposing penalties on the character.

I personally wouldn't trade any XP for this.

The temp Wis penalty which wears off in a couple of days is fine though. Giving the "spark" to one of the players' familiar is also fine.

[skunk3]

First of all, it's way too meta to say that it is going to cost XP to gain this ability. That is a total immersion-breaker and I don't like it. That sounds more like a video game thing than a D&D thing to be honest.

Second, I feel like some degree of agency would be taken away from my character. I also could easily see this ability used to railroad the game along a certain path.

The loss of XP I wouldn't care about because XP is easy enough to get and eventually I would (mostly) catch up to the rest of the party.