Firearm Variant Suggestions

[werescythe]

So I am working on a Wild Western themed DnD 5e campaign and right now everyone is excited. However, recently I have been feeling like maybe I should try to have more firearm variants in the game.

In this setting, players have access to the Revolver, Rifle (Hunting), Pistol (Ren), Musket (Ren), and shotgun; as shown in the firearm section of the DM's Guide.

However, I almost feel like there could be more variations of these weapons in the world. So I thought I might ask this question and see what you all think and if any of you have any suggestions.

[vexedart]

Heavy caliber rifle
Scopes rifle
Repeater rifle
Mauser 10-20 round mags (first pistol with magazine 1896?)
1860’s hand cranked ‘Gatling’ gun

Could probably add special ammunition too if it’s not enough.

[Ninja_Prawn]

We have a few in here (https://store.magehandpress.com/products/weird-west-update), along with various other things you might find useful in a Western game... :smallwink:

[Moredhel24]

here's a few. gatling gun, derringer, single shot breech loading rifles (i.e. sharps or springfield), lever action repeating rifles (i.e. spencer carbine or winchester rifle), coach gun (origin of the term riding shotgun), pepper box, buffalo gun

[jdolch]

Your big problem isn't to find good weapons to use. Rather it is to actually come up with balanced rules for gunfights. And to be honest, i would stay away from D&D for that. Find some other system that actually already has good rules for firearms and adapt that to your setting. I was about to suggest using Shadowrun rules as a baseline but much of the firearms stuff there is dependent on Armor and you don't really have Armor in a Wild West Setting.

[Malifice]

If I ever did a firearms heavy campaign, I'd be pretty keen on introducing a few themed feats for different types of firearms.

Rifle master (bonus action to aim and ignore cover and disadvantage for long range w rifles, some other benefit), Pistolero (bonus action to ignore disadvantage for shooting at adjacent target, damage bonus at short range, some other benefit), Shotgunner (some kind of Area effect with a save attached from the spread, some other benefit) etc.

For an occasional firearms campaign (Renaissance/ Pirate themed) I'd be keen to have guns be one shot and you're largely done weapons, but to make them a fair deal scarier (exploding damage dice for firearms, bigger damage dice, triple damage dice on a crit, Con save or suffer nasty status effect of some similar kind sort of thing).

I'd balance it out with misfires and longer loading times for guns.

Id be aiming for them being dangerous weapons (also to the firer), that are largely great at range, but ****ty up close.

Not sure DnD is the rules for it though. At present, Guns are scariest in the hands of Rogues and (with UA allowed) Warlocks. Fighters (who rely on multiple attacks to be effective), Barbarians and to a lesser extent Paladins (a handful of the Smite spells work with guns) suck at them.

[olskool]

Your big problem isn't to find good weapons to use. Rather it is to actually come up with balanced rules for gunfights. And to be honest, i would stay away from D&D for that. Find some other system that actually already has good rules for firearms and adapt that to your setting. I was about to suggest using Shadowrun rules as a baseline but much of the firearms stuff there is dependent on Armor and you don't really have Armor in a Wild West Setting.

I don't think the lack of armor will hurt much and if it's a hybrid game with Magic, that's covered too.

[Prince Vine]

I am introducing them in one of my games, I am just using the two weakest versions but I am pumping them up a bit with other forms of support

I am adding a Musketeer fighting style that basically takes away the loading property of a musket, and I have a bandoleer piece of equipment that allows the stowing/drawing of small items quicker (wands, knives, vials and pistols mainly)

[olskool]

I am introducing them in one of my games, I am just using the two weakest versions but I am pumping them up a bit with other forms of support

I am adding a Musketeer fighting style that basically takes away the loading property of a musket, and I have a bandoleer piece of equipment that allows the stowing/drawing of small items quicker (wands, knives, vials and pistols mainly)

People always think Firearms will unbalance a fantasy setting. They fail to understand a couple of points about black powder firearms.

1st Point: The long reload times required between shots. It can take 30 seconds to reload a muzzleloading Flintlock, Wheellock, or Matchlock. That's FIVE combat rounds to reload. This means that you will fire once every five rounds or you will need to carry multiple weapons. This is the reason most frontiersmen carried TWO flintlock pistols (known as a "brace of pistols") until the time of the US Civil War. This is also the reason most pistols had a large "ball" on the grips. They were used as compact "maces" or "clubs" after you shot them.

2nd Point: The relative lack of long-range accuracy of smooth-bore muzzleloaders. Rifling really wasn't common until the 19th Century which meant that most pistol shots were taken at 30 FEET OR LESS (because of their shorter barrels). The average smooth-bore rifle shot was 150 FEET OR LESS. This is why armies stood in rows or lines. It helped to hit enemy soldiers with the relatively inaccurate fire of the time.

3rd Point: Most weapons (and the powder they used) were EXPENSIVE to buy and complex to care for and load.

These real-world points often offset the damage that firearms can do. In any event, they really won't outperform a Crossbow in damage in D&D5e. I'd say 2D6 for a 58 to 69 Caliber Flintlock/Wheellock pistol or rifle.

[Prince Vine]

People always think Firearms will unbalance a fantasy setting. They fail to understand a couple of points about black powder firearms.

1st Point: The long reload times required between shots. It can take 30 seconds to reload a muzzleloading Flintlock, Wheellock, or Matchlock. That's FIVE combat rounds to reload. This means that you will fire once every five rounds or you will need to carry multiple weapons. This is the reason most frontiersmen carried TWO flintlock pistols (known as a "brace of pistols") until the time of the US Civil War. This is also the reason most pistols had a large "ball" on the grips. They were used as compact "maces" or "clubs" after you shot them.

2nd Point: The relative lack of long-range accuracy of smooth-bore muzzleloaders. Rifling really wasn't common until the 19th Century which meant that most pistol shots were taken at 30 FEET OR LESS (because of their shorter barrels). The average smooth-bore rifle shot was 150 FEET OR LESS. This is why armies stood in rows or lines. It helped to hit enemy soldiers with the relatively inaccurate fire of the time.

3rd Point: Most weapons (and the powder they used) were EXPENSIVE to buy and complex to care for and load.

These real-world points often offset the damage that firearms can do. In any event, they really won't outperform a Crossbow in damage in D&D5e. I'd say 2D6 for a 58 to 69 Caliber Flintlock/Wheellock pistol or rifle.

Realism is not fantastic for a fantasy setting, which is why I have options to make them more viable for certain archetypes as well as characters with multiple attacks. Both of those were mainly aimed at someone who wanted a gun toting fighter.

(I actually have fired and loaded a flintlock rifle, my brothers were too young for liability reasons so I had to drill in the Springfield Illinois Blackhawk War militia reenactment, I want to say the weapon itself was mid 1800ish pre-Civil War I think, but it was ten years ago and is at my parents' house. We used premade charges, because measuring while loading is a pain and approximating is dangerous)

Edit: Maybe an Enfield? Or a Springfield? Still sure realism would drag the game down for my purposes.

[olskool]

Realism is not fantastic for a fantasy setting, which is why I have options to make them more viable for certain archetypes as well as characters with multiple attacks. Both of those were mainly aimed at someone who wanted a gun toting fighter.

(I actually have fired and loaded a flintlock rifle, my brothers were too young for liability reasons so I had to drill in the Springfield Illinois Blackhawk War militia reenactment, I want to say the weapon itself was mid 1800ish pre-Civil War I think, but it was ten years ago and is at my parents' house. We used premade charges, because measuring while loading is a pain and approximating is dangerous)

Edit: Maybe an Enfield? Or a Springfield? Still, sure realism would drag the game down for my purposes.

My actual point was that people think firearms are too OP and unbalancing when introduced but I find the opposite to be the case (especially if you treat them realistically). I think this comes from putting a "modern perspective" on firearms. You can even add CARTRIDGE firing weapons without too many complications, especially if they are from the Old West Era.

[Malifice]

I am introducing them in one of my games, I am just using the two weakest versions but I am pumping them up a bit with other forms of support

I am adding a Musketeer fighting style that basically takes away the loading property of a musket, and I have a bandoleer piece of equipment that allows the stowing/drawing of small items quicker (wands, knives, vials and pistols mainly)

Id be sorely tempted NOT to take away the Loading property of firearms (keep them single shot weapons).

Instead I'd look at adding a damage buff of +2d6 to the damage of your Firearm attacks if you have the Extra attack class feature.

[The Jack]

People always think Firearms will unbalance a fantasy setting. They fail to understand a couple of points about black powder firearms.

1st Point: The long reload times required between shots. It can take 30 seconds to reload a muzzleloading Flintlock, Wheellock, or Matchlock. That's FIVE combat rounds to reload. This means that you will fire once every five rounds or you will need to carry multiple weapons. This is the reason most frontiersmen carried TWO flintlock pistols (known as a "brace of pistols") until the time of the US Civil War. This is also the reason most pistols had a large "ball" on the grips. They were used as compact "maces" or "clubs" after you shot them.


Entirely irrelevant within the context of DnD 5e, where a heavy crossbow is a 1-per-action deal without a feat. Irl, you'd at least be using two rounds between each shot to struggle with a windlass.

More to the point, the strength of firearms was hardly the damage they inflicicted. early guns still struggled to pierce plate armour unless they were very large or hit the wrakest spots like any other weapon. Guns were popular because they were terrifying, and later because they got better.

Modern Guns don't do a lot of damage compared to earlier weapons, at least if restrict ourselves to handheld semi-autos. A 9mm pistol would do a d4. Most early revolvers would be d4.
As a general guideline (there certainly are exceptions.)
Pistol-d4
Big pistol-d6
Smg-d4
AR-d8
Br-d10
Ww2 bolt action-2d6
Anti material rifle- 2d10/2d12/3d12

Lmg-d8
MMG-d10
HMG-2d12

Hunting rifles/western rifles; between 1d4 and 3d6. Hunting elephants will be bigger 2d12

Black powder;
Pistol- 1d4
Medium-
Carbine 1d8
Heavy-1d10
Super heavy-for each d10/12 you add, increase the reload by a round, crossbow master shortening reload by only a round.



Now, actual variants?


Carbine (medium guns): all guns should have disadvantage on horseback unless they're pistols or carbines. A carbine also halves the accurate range.

Variant chamberings-
Guns come in an array of bullet sizes. Dont be afraid to raise or lower a die by 1 because a weapon is chambered for something bigger or smaller than usual.

And you should use grenades more.

[5crownik007]

Modern Guns don't do a lot of damage compared to earlier weapons

In any setting with a lick of realism, this is false.
Don't ever forget what a firearm is. You're using an explosion to propel a chunk of metal through another person. There is no way that is ever going to do become "don't do a lot of damage". Yes, there is what is referred to as "less-lethal" ammunition, which is exactly that, less-lethal. People still die to rubber bullets, beanbag ammunition and other less-lethal variant ammunition types.

True, in the moment, someone might survive multiple gunshot wounds, but they're very quickly going to suffer severe blood loss, which leads to impaired motor functions and cognitive reasoning, as well as shock from the pain. (adrenaline will keep them running for a little while though.)

Should they survive the immediate effects of a gunshot wound, in a wild-west setting without modern medical attention, they're going to suffer sepsis and infection, which is almost certainly a death sentence in a world without disinfectant. You got nicked in the leg and lived? That's great Billy, now go lie in bed, you've got a horrific fever.

There's a reason why guns are referred to as "the great equalizer". It doesn't matter how big or strong you are, or what muscle mass you have, if you fight with someone that has a gun, and you don't, your chances of winning are incredibly diminished. Guns make people of diminutive stature and sub-optimal training able to defend themselves, at least to a degree. Though, if you're going to handle a firearm, do proper safety training please. If not for yourself, for the people around you.

Essentially, remember Rule #2 of firearm safety. Never point a gun at something you're not willing to have obliterated. Yes, even with your lowest caliber single shot pea shooting piece of crap. Bullets will always be dangerous and there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. Yes, you can reduce the danger, but that's mostly a decision on the part of the shooter, not the person shot. There's always going to be a hazard of instant death when handling a firearm.

As for weapons in a wild-west setting, do a bit of googling and research.
Most of the guns that John Browning designed literally have the year of design in the name.
Just to name two:
Winchester 1887 Lever Action Shotgun.
Winchester 1897 Pump Action Shotgun.
And, for good measure:
A quick screenshot from Wikipedia of a partial list of the guns John Browning designed. Many of these will fit your Wild West setting just fine.
https://i.gyazo.com/bd0b533808128de4c0b561c6015905f8.png
I'd like to quickly mention that so many of John Browning's designs were so effective that they're still in service today.

[JellyPooga]

True, in the moment, someone might survive multiple gunshot wounds, but they're very quickly going to suffer severe blood loss, which leads to impaired motor functions and cognitive reasoning, as well as shock from the pain. (adrenaline will keep them running for a little while though.)

This is also true of a dagger, sword, crossbow bolt or any other kind of weapon. If anything, older weapons tend to make bigger wounds (greatswords are hardly useful to scratch an itch now, are they?). The "flesh damage" a weapon does is sort of irrelevant to D&D combat; the narrative damage isn't. Small blade? Small damage die. Small gun? Same deal.

[The Jack]

Entirely missing the point

Guns were the great equalizer because anyone could land a hit. That's the benefit of modern guns, they're easy to use and you can hit someone multiple times at range in a few seconds without having to worry about them parrying.

They don't do more damage than medieval weapons, except when we start leaving small arms or get into explosives. Getting shot by a rifle is comparable to being hit by a warhammer, but a rifle is superior in many other ways.

[Man_Over_Game]

After reading through the posts, here's my recommendation:


Use the loading feature currently on Crossbows, to combine fantasy with mild realism.
Allow players to get +3 to their hit for every extra attack option they're allowed to have with a two handed firearm, to incentivize specialized Fighters/Hexblades/Etc. to use slower firearms.
Allow players to utilize multiple loaded guns, which CAN be used in quick succession with extra attacks, to allow multiple build types.
A player can spend an action, bonus action, or all of their movement to reload a single weapon, to further draw emphasis on how long it takes to reload without slowing the game much.
Shots from a firearm range from 1d10 to 2d8 damage, depending on their use, to reflect the lethality and seriousness of a Firearm is despite having the limited fire rate.
Double the bonuses from Cover, to provide players a means to interact with firearms defensively.




Combined, this means that you might have someone trying to flank the enemies with dual pistols working with a sniper is keeping the badguys pinned with a Overwatch (Readied) Action and +6 to hit while hiding behind cover.

[GlenSmash!]

This is also true of a dagger, sword, crossbow bolt or any other kind of weapon. If anything, older weapons tend to make bigger wounds (greatswords are hardly useful to scratch an itch now, are they?). The "flesh damage" a weapon does is sort of irrelevant to D&D combat; the narrative damage isn't. Small blade? Small damage die. Small gun? Same deal.

Indeed. In reality it takes a very small amount of damage to kill someone whether inflicted with gagger, greatsword, arrow, or bullet.

Hitpoints and meat and all that etc, etc (10ish pages of etc usually).