Sell me on Fast Hands/the Thief subclass

[Greywander]

I feel like this is a powerful feature, and I know it can be used for things like dropping ball bearings or snatching a caster's component pouch, but especially compared to the Pact of the Chain, which can be obtained for the same level investment, it seems to fall a bit short. I've already written a post about the many uses of an imp familiar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?571635-The-many-uses-of-an-imp-familiar), but here's a quick breakdown of the two:



Fast Hands
- Requires a bonus action, competes with Cunning Action
- All actions require you to be up close
- Limited to Sleight of Hand checks, thieves' tools, and Use Object actions



+ Use your own stats (possibly enhanced by proficiencies/expertise)
Chain Pact
+ The imp uses its own actions, doesn't need any actions from you
+ The imp can do things from a distance, any distance with Voice of the Chain Master
+ Is not limited except on attack, and can still attack at the cost of one of your attacks
+ The imp can perform many other functions, such as carrying a lantern or rope
+ The imp can also act as an invisible, flying scout/spy/thief/assassin
+ You can teleport the imp back to yourself regardless of how far it is from you
- Use the imp's stats, no proficiency in thieves' tools means it can't use them*


*Would it be possible to spend downtime getting your familiar trained to use thieves' tools?

As noted, the only point where Fast Hands seems to come out on top is that it uses your own stats, while an imp familiar will use their probably worse stats. So yes, you could have your imp attempt to lift the component pouch off of an enemy spellcaster, but they're going to be much shakier at that Sleight of Hand check (invisibility, tho'). Furthermore, without proficiency in thieves' tools, they can't pick locks (only an AT rogue can do this from range).

I suppose the biggest reason to go for Fast Hands is because you wanted to play a rogue and didn't want to set back your progression. Even then, though, I could go AT rogue and get some of the same abilities through Mage Hand Legerdemain, and round it off with Find Familiar.

Thief looks like it could be a fun subclass to play, but I can't help comparing it to other options out there and feeling like I could be getting more elsewhere.

[hymer]

When the imp dies (and it will if you use it combat), you're spending your next short rest recasting it. As a warlock there are better things to do with your short rest, like actually resting.
You may also want to ask your DM what happens to any equipment the familiar carries when you put it into its little dimensional hole. Does the equipment go along? Great for storage! Does it stay behind? Less useful, but still something to place object and scarper.

Then there's all the rest of the two classes. I'd prefer any kind of rogue at level three to any kind of warlock at the same level. YMMV, of course.

[Coffee_Dragon]

I know it can be used for things like ... snatching a caster's component pouch

Fast Hands lets you do a selection of things as a bonus action instead of as an action. If your DM allows taking items from enemies during combat, have you previously been doing this as an action and wishing it could be done with just a little better action economy? Because it doesn't seem like Fast Hands would be the critical component of that strategy.

[ImproperJustice]

You can use it with the Healer Feat to swifly provide aid to allies in combat.
You can close a door and lock it in the same turn via Theives’ Tools. In some of our dungeon crawls this has been a handy technique on more than one occasion.

And as someone else mentioned, your Fast Hands are less vulnerable to attack.

[Laird]

The Imp only has a carrying capacity of 45 pounds due to being tiny, it does have lots of utility and it's hard to justify Fast Hands in a vacuum, however:

Use item as a bonus action is really great. Some items like Poison, Alchemists fire and Holy water say as An action do x, that means you can make offhand 'attacks' with alchemist's fire/acid or holy water/oil. You can spread Caltrops/Ball Bearings and have a BA (though lesser effective Grease spell). Set a hunting trap (which is 25lbs btw), applying poison to ammunition as a Bonus action is great too. Rogues are not all just about disengage and sneak and hide (unless you are playing assassin). As a thief even without the Healer's feat you can still stabilize your bleeding out allies as a BA. Toss oil on baddies vulnerable to fire... using all your nice stats.

To get the same use out of the imp you need it to become visible grab the item then cast invisibility again so the item it just nicked gets the benefit of being invisible otherwise any coin pouch you try to take is completely visible and now the creature can see a moving coin pouch and has (at DM's discretion) a valid place to aim their weapons, kill your familiar and possibly set you back 10 gp. That said all those things mentioned above can be done by a familiar with your DM's approval(Healing, Setting Traps, applying poison...) and a bit of pre combat planning, so what I think it comes down to here is: do you want to do rogueish things vicariously through a devil or do you want to do things as a devilish rogue?

To use both optimally does require a bit of research on items your DM will allow and what is available for purchase. Keep in mind invisibility gives advantage on stealth but not sleight of hand (for the actual lifting of the pouch) so arguably the tradeoffs are the imp is more stealthy until the filching part afterwards the rogue has a slight edge on the imp (and greater carry capacity), and a full action to attack, dash, disengage or my favorite shove(with athletics expertise).

[Dalebert]

An imp is arguably better acknowledging that it's vulnerable to dying but what if you want to be a rogue? Versus ATs, the fast hands feature doesn't require you to spend an action to cast mage hand which you will find you forgot to do before some combats or just didn't get the chance to do.

I would also argue (and have argued) that acid and alchemist fire are objects that require an attack roll when you use them as they are objects and not weapons. They're not listed as weapons, neither simple nor martial, and you get no weapon proficiency bonus. They're listed as mundane equipment. A thief can use them as a bonus action but an AT can't because mage hand can't attack. I say "require" an attack roll but it's comparable to a specific case of the "use an object" action granting one attack much like Booming Blade is the "cast a spell" action that both requires and grants one attack as part of the action.

Second story work also gets bundled in at 3rd level and I've found that to be frequently useful. Effective movement is so critical for a melee character. Now I should disclaim that my thief has a 2-level barbarian dip and took expertise in athletics and has a belt of hill giant str, so he's really built to exploit thief to its fullest. He can don or doff his sheld as a bonus action to use his crossbow for instance. He can climb quickly, often with no need to roll because his minimum athletics is often higher than the DC. Climbing at full speed could also be a nice combo with say, a wood elf thief with the mobile feet and a move of 45 ft who can also bonus action dash. Just yesterday my thief was putting player characters out with his wineskins (he has six due to a desert adventure) as a bonus action during a fight with fire elementals, and still getting his sneak attack in.

[sophontteks]

These two things have nothing to do with each other. We might as well compare both of these to fireball as well.

[Tanarii]

It's costly, but it works with Acid and Alchemists Fire. Which is nice.

And the ability to drop caltrops and ballbearings as well as attack is fantastic.

[JackPhoenix]

Keep in mind invisibility gives advantage on stealth

It doesn't.


I would also argue (and have argued) that acid and alchemist fire are objects that require an attack roll when you use them as they are objects and not weapons. They're not listed as weapons, neither simple nor martial, and you get no weapon proficiency bonus. They're listed as mundane equipment.

They're also explicitly described as using improvised weapon rules.

[Laird]

It doesn't.

They're also explicitly described as using improvised weapon rules.

Yes, sorry, Invisibility allows hiding as if heavily obscured and when a creature tries to detect said hiding creature they automatically fail perception checks based on sight. So it's better than advantage on stealth, though if the searching creature has any other type of perception (keen smell, hearing) they will know the stealthy creature is there. The advantage/disadvantage only applies to attacks made by and against the invisible creature.

As for the Alchemist's fire and Acid, they "use the Object action" that allows the user to make an improvised weapon attack, so it still works under fast hands and if a creature had proficiency in improvised weapons would essentially be a better TWF offhand attack. (As it specifies ranged attack as improvised weapon) so the improvised part does 1d4 (likely bludgeoning + Dex) then the effect of the item. It's an expensive one use weapon though and not something one can likely do all the time without a lot of gold/pouches.

[djreynolds]

Your choosing to be a dirty, gritty thief.

Climbing has its uses, we were pinned downed by a beholder, the thief climbed around the corner and onto the ceiling out of the beholder's line of sight and then popped out and got in a nasty sneak attack, saved our bacon

You could use spider climb for this, if you have the spell slot available. You could use fly, if there is any space. You could use magic, but there is anti-magic zone also.

Fast-hands works, its your imagination and what the DM limits. And a familiar usually will die if it is hit.

[Chaosmancer]

So, what are our parameters here?

Are we asking why does a thief effectively act as two people when a warlock can be two people?

Or are we asking why the rogue doesn't choose a different subclass and take 3 levels of warlock to get some of the thieves utility?

For the first, I'd say we have to look at the entire character side by side, and we can argue they are roughly similar if they were built for the same goals. The warlock familiar combo is able to be in two places at once, but the theif is far more mobile. The imp is only equivalent to the fly speed in that it can fly, but the warlock can't benefit from that.


If we are talking multiclass, well the theif pure is sitting at level 3 with three more levels of rogue coming. Which I believe includes uncanny dodge and evasion both of which are amazing. The hybrid class is delaying all that, MAD and all for an exploit that might be a little better than what the thief was doing three levels ago.

[NaughtyTiger]

Since you can't just choose archetype abilities...

at 3rd level
rogue gets expertise in 2 skills, +2 skills, hide/dash/disengage on bonus action, +2d6 damage on attack
thief gets: climb speed

at 3rd level
warlock gets 2 invocations, Eldritch blast+2other cantrips, 2x short rest spell slots, patron bonus (hexblade = extra damage, medium armor)

[djreynolds]

So, what are our parameters here?

Are we asking why does a thief effectively act as two people when a warlock can be two people?

Or are we asking why the rogue doesn't choose a different subclass and take 3 levels of warlock to get some of the thieves utility?

For the first, I'd say we have to look at the entire character side by side, and we can argue they are roughly similar if they were built for the same goals. The warlock familiar combo is able to be in two places at once, but the theif is far more mobile. The imp is only equivalent to the fly speed in that it can fly, but the warlock can't benefit from that.


If we are talking multiclass, well the theif pure is sitting at level 3 with three more levels of rogue coming. Which I believe includes uncanny dodge and evasion both of which are amazing. The hybrid class is delaying all that, MAD and all for an exploit that might be a little better than what the thief was doing three levels ago.

Excellent post.

5E is allowing all the classes and archetypes, to not be pigeon hold. You are a fighter and all you can do is swing a sword and intimidate someone.

Its free form. But you are not the best at anyone thing

Yes a warlock/arcane trickster can do crazy stuff in terms of stealth and infiltration, etc. But as with my example, the beholder shut down all magic and it was the thief using their imagination that saved the day.

Arcane tricksters are great, with full spell slots.... otherwise their just a thief who took magic initiate taking mage hand, booming blade and find familiar

[Matrix_Walker]

Excellent post.

5E is allowing all the classes and archetypes, to not be pigeon hold. You are a fighter and all you can do is swing a sword and intimidate someone.

Its free form. But you are not the best at anyone thing

Yes a warlock/arcane trickster can do crazy stuff in terms of stealth and infiltration, etc. But as with my example, the beholder shut down all magic and it was the thief using their imagination that saved the day.

Arcane tricksters are great, with full spell slots.... otherwise their just a thief who took magic initiate taking mage hand, booming blade and find familiar


Future reference - (and I mean no disrespect) the term is "pidgeonholed"

[Greywander]

You may also want to ask your DM what happens to any equipment the familiar carries when you put it into its little dimensional hole. Does the equipment go along?
This is an excellent question, the Find Familiar spell doesn't say either way. On the one hand, I'd expect items it is wearing (clothing and possibly weapons) to go with it, but I can absolutely see a DM not allowing you to have an imp grab something and then immediately bring it into its pocket dimension, only to pop right out next to you, possibly thousands of miles away from where the theft occurred.


You can use it with the Healer Feat to swifly provide aid to allies in combat.
You can close a door and lock it in the same turn via Theives’ Tools. In some of our dungeon crawls this has been a handy technique on more than one occasion.
Healer is great if that's what you want to build for, or you have an extra feat for it. I'm less certain about using thieves' tools to lock a door, as I don't think that's something thieves' tools are capable of.


Use item as a bonus action is really great.
Sure, but the imp can do all of this using its own action, allowing you to use your bonus action on something else.


I would also argue (and have argued) that acid and alchemist fire are objects that require an attack roll when you use them as they are objects and not weapons.
As someone else mentioned, using alchemist's fire or acid would count as making an attack with an improvised weapon (Tavern Brawler would add proficiency), so it's not eligible for Fast Hands (your imp can't do this either unless you give up an attack, so they're even here). Although I do feel like splashing it on someone should be a DEX save rather than an attack roll, but RAW it's also an attack.


Second story work also gets bundled in at 3rd level and I've found that to be frequently useful.
True! And a good argument to get Athletics proficiency, even if/especially if you dump STR. Although, even here an imp familiar can provide similar utility by flying a rope up and tying it to something. Of course, tying a rope might require more than a single action, and turn order might mean you need to go up something before your imp gets their turn, so it's less useful in combat.

I don't believe you can don/doff a shield using Fast Hands, but I can see DMs allowing this. It's certainly something to ask about if you get shield proficiency from somewhere.


These two things have nothing to do with each other. We might as well compare both of these to fireball as well.
We're comparing two different abilities that allow you to break the action economy and do more than one action per round without expending any resources. It's more like comparing Fireball and Lightning Bolt.


So, what are our parameters here?

Are we asking why does a thief effectively act as two people when a warlock can be two people?

Or are we asking why the rogue doesn't choose a different subclass and take 3 levels of warlock to get some of the thieves utility?

For the first, I'd say we have to look at the entire character side by side, and we can argue they are roughly similar if they were built for the same goals. The warlock familiar combo is able to be in two places at once, but the theif is far more mobile. The imp is only equivalent to the fly speed in that it can fly, but the warlock can't benefit from that.


If we are talking multiclass, well the theif pure is sitting at level 3 with three more levels of rogue coming. Which I believe includes uncanny dodge and evasion both of which are amazing. The hybrid class is delaying all that, MAD and all for an exploit that might be a little better than what the thief was doing three levels ago.
Post quoted in its entirety because I think it best expresses what I'm trying to grasp at here. I'd say it's more of the second option: I'm looking at the thief and feeling like I'd be better off going AT instead and dipping 3 levels into warlock. But, as you point out, this sets back my rogue progression quite a bit. I'd argue that it doesn't have to be MAD if you pick spells that don't rely on CHA (e.g. Armor of Agathys, Comprehend Languages, Hex, and Unseen Servant), and there are other things you could grab that would help out a rogue, such as Devil's Sight for a race with no Darkvision. It's definitely a trade-off, as there's lots to be gained by dipping into warlock, but rogue also gets a lot of really cool stuff over the first 11 or so levels.

If I were starting at level 14, then Thief or AT rogue 11 / chainlock 3 would be a great build. But starting at 1st level... would I want to grab the Chain Pact early and set back my progression? Would it even be worth picking after level 11? Would I want to plan my build around dipping warlock after level 11? Maybe, but probably not most of the time. And depending on the DM, most of what I'd want an imp for might be doable with a normal familiar, so Magic Initiate or Ritual Caster would be all I needed.


But as with my example, the beholder shut down all magic and it was the thief using their imagination that saved the day.
Yeah, I think when it comes to either Fast Hands (or the Thief as a whole) or the Chain Pact, both require a lot of creativity to get the most out of them, and offer a lot of utility if you do.

[Laird]

As someone else mentioned, using alchemist's fire or acid would count as making an attack with an improvised weapon (Tavern Brawler would add proficiency), so it's not eligible for Fast Hands (your imp can't do this either unless you give up an attack, so they're even here). Although I do feel like splashing it on someone should be a DEX save rather than an attack roll, but RAW it's also an attack.


You absolutely can use Alchemist's Fire and Acid with fast hands. Let's look at their descriptions:

This sticky, adhesive fluid ignites when exposed to air. As an action, you can throw this flask up to 20 feet... Make a ranged Attack against a creature or object, treating the alchemist's fire as an Improvised Weapon....

What does As an action mean for items? Let's look at the Use an Object relevant rules:

When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action.

Then what a thief's fast hands allows: the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check, use your thieves' tools to disarm a trap or open a lock, or take the Use an Object action.

This only applies to non magic or mundane items such as Alchemist's Fire, Acid, Caltrops, Ball Bearings, Traps etc. Doesn't work with potions unfortunately.

So having the familiar does save your bonus action, gives you extra leeway however as imps aren't proficient in sleight of hand the enemy would immediately know it's there after trying to pickpocket, unlike the thief.

It seems though that you like the Action Economy the imp grants more than the decision making the rogue has to do, so it seems unlikely we can convince you of the merits of fast hands in comparison. However the Thief Archetype also gets the penalty to climb removed allowing them to climb 30ft up a rope, cliff etc anything that doesn't require an athletics check by level three. By level 13 if you didn't dip you can use any magic item ever made, as long as you meet the alignment requirements. This includes spell scrolls, scrolls of protection and wands, paladin specific holy avenger, ranger specific bows.. etc. (To use spell scrolls is a DC spellcasting check though so you straight up can only roll a d20 + nothing haha.)

If you want to play a rogue play a thief if not pact of the chain + multiclassed warlock is amazing. Nothings stopping you from dipping in warlock to have both fasthands and pact of the chain...(maybe just your coin pouch ;)) Good thing about Rogues is the 6 ASI increases so if you go warlock 3, rogue 17 or warlock 3, rogue16, Bard? You still get 5 ASI's. Though I recommend staying for lvl 17 as Two turns in the first round of every new combat, if you aren't surprised is pretty good. Rogue is a powerful chassis if you MC and like sneaky characters and I feel Thief is a bit underrated.

[Greywander]

You absolutely can use Alchemist's Fire and Acid with fast hands.
Hmm, I do see your argument. It straight up uses an action, so you can't use it as part of the Attack action (although I probably would let someone with Extra Attack do so), ergo it's not compatible with the Attack action, even though you're making an attack. Well, if it's not an Attack action, then the only other thing it could be is a Use Object action. This is a good argument. Given the gold cost involved, and the feat tax if you want proficiency, I don't think it's OP to allow this, but some DMs may disagree.


(To use spell scrolls is a DC spellcasting check though so you straight up can only roll a d20 + nothing haha.)
I was going to say you get to add your proficiency bonus, but it seems to be an untyped (i.e. no relevant skill) ability check. Bards with JoAT could add half their proficiency bonus, and Reliable Talent + JoAT would then apply, but pure rogues are out of luck.

Some DMs might allow you to bypass the check as part of Use Magic Device's clause on ignoring class restrictions (i.e. you treat all spells as if they were on your class's spell list, even though you don't have a spell list). Not sure how you would handle spells that were "higher level than you could normally cast", since that's technically all of them.


Rogue is a powerful chassis if you MC and like sneaky characters and I feel Thief is a bit underrated.
Agreed, and thieves are probably among the most versatile non-casters. As a perfectionist, it just hurts a bit knowing that a "better" ability exists can could be obtained for the same level investment, and it tempts me to try to multiclass. I suppose I'd have to rely on the character RP on whether or not it made sense to stay pure rogue or dip into another class.

[djreynolds]

Thief can take magic initiate, and get the same benefits from a familiar or even ritual caster, AFB, and get a familiar that way.

Fast hands is really dependent on the DM. Caltrops can be really effective.

Fast hands seems to be a precursor for 13th level UMD. It's potential may lay here. But I haven't seen UMD in play.

[thereaper]

Subclasses from separate classes are not really comparable to one another. They can only meaningfully be compared to subclasses from the same class.

For example:

Let's say Class A gets X and Y at level 3, and Subclass A1 gets Z.

Let's say Class B gets only X at level 3, but Subclass B1 gets Y and Z.

Is Subclass B1 better than Subclass A1? It technically offers more features, but a Level 3 A1 has the exact same features as a Level 3 B1. You have to compare the whole package.

And now I just realized that this is just a complicated way of saying that one shouldn't compare apples to oranges. I am ashamed.