Interaction with Subtle Metamagic and Spells that Only Have a Verbal Component

[TheMoxiousOne]

Hail, adventurers!

I come to you with an interesting idea I had, as the title suggest, for using the Subtle metamagic with spells that only have a verbal component. Now, there are two questions, and to offer aid, I will be looking into two spells in particular: Power Word Kill and Time Stop.

Now, with Time Stop, I see the interaction basically being the character stopping time, no one around being any the wiser anything magical happened at all; things would just be altered or different, or give me a pocket of turns to work with to set something up. No problem.

But then there's Power Word Kill. It literally requires you to speak a word of power to cast. If you remove that, what happens? Do you look at someone and they just... Die? How does this work in peoples' theatre of the mind?

And my second question: If a spellcaster with Counterspell is present, and I need no components (i.e. sensory queues to go off of and get the chance to react to), are they allowed to try and counter either spell?

RAW or Sage Advice citations to any and all of these questions is appreciated; did some light digging online at work and found nothing. Thanks in advance, and look forward to the healthy discussion of some silly things; cheers!

[Eragon123]

They are not allowed to counterspell, unless they have some other way of determing that magic is being used. Detect thoughts being the big one. Arguably detect magic but that’s far less certain.

Yep the target just dies. Flavor it as you will.


Also there is a small debate on what the verbal component is. Like for suggestion, a reasonable interpretation is that the suggestion itself is the verbal component, others say you need so speak some arcane mumbo jumbo first. So discuss that with your DM.

[Unoriginal]

They are not allowed to counterspell, unless they have some other way of determing that magic is being used. Detect thoughts being the big one. Arguably detect magic but that’s far less certain.

Yep the target just dies. Flavor it as you will.


Also there is a small debate on what the verbal component is. Like for suggestion, a reasonable interpretation is that the suggestion itself is the verbal component, others say you need so speak some arcane mumbo jumbo first. So discuss that with your DM.

Hit the nail on the head here, Eragon123.

[TheMoxiousOne]

Appreciate the feedback! As I run the same character with multiple DMs, I lean toward the known, RAW or SA rules, to curb debates and make sure the game keeps flowing; which means Suggestion is coming off the list before I grab Subtle. Will have some real fun with Time Stop and double Delayed Blast Fireball shenanigans, for sure! :smallamused:

[TheUser]

You still need to utter the word of power.

The verbal component of the spell is the actual invocations required to bend the weave to your will.

Much in the same way suggestion has an additional component that is not circumvented with subtle spell so too is power word anything.

[Reaver25]

You still need to utter the word of power.

The verbal component of the spell is the actual invocations required to bend the weave to your will.

Much in the same way suggestion has an additional component that is not circumvented with subtle spell so too is power word anything.

Incorrect.

"When you Cast a Spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to cast it without any somatic or verbal Components." (PHB p. 102)


The "utter word of power" portion is flavor text. There is no verbal, therefore no words spoken.

[TheUser]

Incorrect.

"When you Cast a Spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to cast it without any somatic or verbal Components." (PHB p. 102)


The "utter word of power" portion is flavor text. There is no verbal, therefore no words spoken.

Everything in the text of the spell occurs AFTER you cast the spell. Subtle spell removes the verbal component required to cast the spell not the additional requirements after casting (because verbal components are clearly defined in the PHB). Ergo you must still utter the word of power. It is not "flavor text" it's the description of how the spell works.

As said earlier this is exactly the same as Suggestion; you must still tell the target of the spell the 1 sentence. While it is a verbal requirement of the spell it is not technically the verbal component of the spell.

[Foxydono]

Everything in the text of the spell occurs AFTER you cast the spell. Subtle spell removes the verbal component required to cast the spell not the additional requirements after casting (because verbal components are clearly defined in the PHB). Ergo you must still utter the word of power. It is not "flavor text" it's the description of how the spell works.

As said earlier this is exactly the same as Suggestion; you must still tell the target of the spell the 1 sentence. While it is a verbal requirement of the spell it is not technically the verbal component of the spell.
I'm not an expert on rules, but I think raw you are wrong. There is no 'after effect' in 5e as you put it. Or at least I never heard or read about it before as being part of the rules for power word kill or other spells. The saying of the word is part of the spell being cast and therefore subtle spell applies.

[Sindal]

Everything in the text of the spell occurs AFTER you cast the spell. Subtle spell removes the verbal component required to cast the spell not the additional requirements after casting (because verbal components are clearly defined in the PHB). Ergo you must still utter the word of power. It is not "flavor text" it's the description of how the spell works.

As said earlier this is exactly the same as Suggestion; you must still tell the target of the spell the 1 sentence. While it is a verbal requirement of the spell it is not technically the verbal component of the spell.

Meta magic fundamentally changes the way a spell functions. That's the whole point of it. You change how it usually works to suit your need.
The fact that the spell usually works by saying a word is all well and good. But subtle spell removes the requirement.
You could very well argue that, having re-engineered the spell, you dont "say" word of power. But you can still "think" 'avadacadavra' and glare at someone.
Its not the word thats killing them. Its your magical energy forming into a death curse.

But, I will relent and say this is ultimately up to your DM. There are cases for both argument because the verbal component of a spell isn't clearly defined enough to say which one it is
As a DM, i would allow it. Metamagic already has so many restrictions thrown onto them that they don't need extra ones XD

[Vogie]

Yep the target just dies. Flavor it as you will.


Clearly, you have to write the target's name in a innocuous looking notebook first.

If you must say something, some word of power, as others are saying, I'd suggest "Stop Breathing". As terrible as The Gunslinger Movie was, that was pretty badass.

[NaughtyTiger]

You still need to utter the word of power.
The verbal component of the spell is the actual invocations required to bend the weave to your will.
Much in the same way suggestion has an additional component that is not circumvented with subtle spell so too is power word anything.

For what it's worth, this is how I view it too.

Subtle spell only affects the verbal component.
The actual command or suggestion isn't explicitly the verbal component.

It is reasonable to treat the command or suggestion as part of the verbal component, but the way magic is described seems more inline with TheUser's take.
This does break in a Silence spell. so i will figure out how to handle that when it comes up.

[Reaver25]

This is one of those moments where I, if I am DMing, just go with what I want. After all, we all argue and debate rules in the PHB, but ultimately, they're all just guides. Not hard and set rule books. That's why it's called a Handbook, after all.
And, if I'm playing, I'll be fine with whatever the DM says in the end.

[Capac Amaru]

Verbal spell components are discrete from the effects of the spell.

That the target dies when the power word is spoken is an effect of the spell.

Silence only affects the verbal component of Power Word 'N'.

Subtle spell removes the verbal component.

Silence does not specify that the target hears the word, only that the word be spoken. Silence does not prevent speaking the word, it only eliminates the sound.

Therefore Subtle Power Word 'N' requires the power word to be spoken, but still functions in Silence.

Blindness would work though, because the caster needs to see the target.

[Ihazturtlez]

I'd say its at DM discretion. I would rule, that when using Subtle, you can pick out any phrase or word in a normal conversation as your "power word", so it would seem that you were merely speaking to your target.

As for counterspell, MAYBE the counter-caster can make a 25 AC Arcana check to feel the bend and flow of magic through your words? But, that would be pretty meta to even think of making an Arcana check for someone's conversation imo.