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Ranis
2007-09-21, 08:00 PM
So, by buddy and I have come to a disagreement about Wizards. When he plays a Wizard, he plays a straight blaster, going by the philosophy that if you can blow it up, then it can't hurt the party if it's dead. He disregards and disbelieves my philosophy that the truly good Wizard never has to blast a thing in order to win.

So, we've set up the gauntlet, and he doesn't think that I can prove him wrong under level 10. So we agreed on level 5, and I'm determined to beat him. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can destroy his level 5 wizard without blasting it?

Glyphic
2007-09-21, 08:07 PM
I'd sy PvP isn't the best way to prove it. The -real- use of a wizard isn't against other party members. Get a collection of magic beasties and other fights. Have each wizard take a companion (same one for each wizard, ie, identical) and see how often they win and how much they have to expell to be efficient.

Quietus
2007-09-21, 08:13 PM
Most obvious spell that comes to mind : Charm Person. Other good spells would include :

Tasha's Hideous Laughter
Blindness/Deafness
Ghoul Touch
Hold Person

All of these are available as a 5th level wizard.

ocato
2007-09-21, 08:15 PM
Make it a gauntlet in the truest sense. A linear dungeon with various rooms with monsters, traps, and various other obstacles. Each of you goes through and whoever defeats the most rooms wins. So he wastes his spells on fire ball and whatnot and you can fly and block swinging blades and solve the problems strategically, you'll arguably get further.

Citizen Joe
2007-09-21, 08:15 PM
Invisible wall between you and him. Act like he surprised you and have him cast fireball at you... hitting the wall and blowing himself up.

Bassetking
2007-09-21, 08:16 PM
Level 5, eh? So, we're talking 3rd level spells, but mostly 2nd.


Start off with Blindness/deafness. Take his eyes.

Hit him with a Ray of Stupidity, and take his spells. You may need to use more than one.

Place a 5 gallon jug of Alchemist's Fire on the ground, near the blind, int-drained wizard, and cast Misers Envy... Making him desire the alchemical fire inside the Jug.

Laugh.

Green Bean
2007-09-21, 08:17 PM
Stinking Cloud is also a good idea. Fort save, which is a wizard's weakest, and it prevents him from casting spells.

Ranis
2007-09-21, 08:18 PM
Isn't Wall of Force like 7th level?

And, also, anyone have good feat suggestions?

Citizen Joe
2007-09-21, 08:20 PM
Isn't Wall of Force like 7th level?
Regular wall, just cast invisibility on it. Maybe a door... some obstacle is all I'm saying.

Overlard
2007-09-21, 08:25 PM
Win initiative. If you lose, then you're in trouble. But anyone losing initiative against a wizard is in trouble anyway - including him.

Invisibility, & Fly should help against most of his attacks. Turn invisible, then keep moving in 3 dimensions.

Conjuration specialist: cast Bands Of Steel (reflex save or immobilised), walk up with a scythe and cut his head off.

Enchantment specialist: Use Deep Slumber & if he fails his will save (better than average chance unless he has pumped his save), he loses.

Just plain annoying: Spectral hand + touch of idiocy. If you're lucky, he'll lose enough intelligence for his 3rd level spells to stop functioning, and at the least should make his save DCs suck.

Sneaky: turn invisible, cast silence on a spell component, and then go drop it in his spell component pouch.

5th level is a tough one, as 3rd level evocation spells are at the peak of their usefulness, but just be careful and win initiative.

Draz74
2007-09-21, 08:29 PM
Wizard vs. Wizard is always complex, and I don't claim to be an expert when it comes to dueling builds. But here are some spells for you to definitely keep in mind.

Shield, Resist Energy, Protection from Energy: If you know he's going to be a blaster, and you don't have Evasion or anything protecting you, you'd better have some of these spells!

Ray of Enfeeblement / Ray of Exhaustion: This combo, in the right order, can paralyze many Wizards. Have a Chill Touch in reserve just in case, maybe, to finish him off if he still has a point or two of Strength.

Glitterdust: Counter for Invisibility, but there's always the off-chance that he'll actually fail a Will save and get blinded, too. :smallwink:

Mirror Image: Lame vs. Fireball. But great vs. Acid Arrow or Scorching Ray.

Invisibility: OK, probably not worth it, because most people know to counter Invisibility if they're going to be facing a wizard. But if your opponent is a blaster, he just might not think of this. And if he doesn't counter it, it will give you a lot of chances to buff yourself up!

Cat's Grace / Fox's Cunning: Probably only worth it if your duel involves designated "pre-battle buffing rounds." But +2 Reflex save and +2 to your spells' DCs would both be great.

Dispel Magic: Very flexible. Counter whatever spell he throws at you? Check. Kill his Fly spell so he's within reach of touch and battlefield control spells? Check.

Stinking Cloud: Probably your single most powerful offensive option. Area effect. Fortitude save. Failed? Good, now you can't cast any spells for at least 2 turns. Ideally, follow up with Grease so he has trouble leaving the area of effect.

Major Image: Get creative. Make him think you have spells you don't have. He only gets a Will save if he "interacts" with these spells.

Vampiric Touch: When both combatants have only 24ish HP, dealing 2d6 damage to him and giving yourself 2d6 temporary HP isn't too bad. But you (or your familiar) will have to touch him.

That's all for spells. For magic items, Pearls of Power are good. Energy Resistance items are good, but expensive. A Lesser Metamagic (Extend) Rod might be worth it.

One more note: Level 5 Wizards can't do much to deal with grappling, except Fly away. It's risky, but you could try to outgrapple him and keep him from casting any decent spells! You have several options here:
Improved Familiar feat; grab a Formian Worker.
Summon Monster III; grab a Celetial Bison or Black Bear or Dire Badger or something.
Have a decent Strength, hit yourself with Enlarge Person, and wrastle 'im yourself!
For any of these options, be sure to have a Bull's Strength spell for your grappler and a Reduce Person spell for your opponent (another Fortitude save spell).

Ranis
2007-09-21, 08:51 PM
Grappling is an interesting idea; I remember reading something on here about the Grappler Wizard with an Octopus familiar, that might be an interesting strategy.

I don't think that winning initiative will be all that much of a problem; a fifth level wizard has enough feats to drop two into Improved Initiative with another feat for utility; also, I can use that just silly broken Elf that gets +2 to Intelligence without a LA, does anyone remember which elf that is and what book it's in?

Draz74
2007-09-21, 08:57 PM
Gray Elf. Good ol'-fashioned core Monster Manual I.

Ranis
2007-09-21, 09:03 PM
Ah, yes. Cool. Also, Bands of Steel sounds AWESOME, what book is it in?

Overlard
2007-09-21, 09:09 PM
Ah, yes. Cool. Also, Bands of Steel sounds AWESOME, what book is it in?
Spell Compendium. Possibly Complete Arcane too.

Solo
2007-09-21, 09:34 PM
Pump Dex and Int as high as possible. as possible. Get Spel Focus and Greater Spell Focus in necromancy.

Win initiative and blind him.

hit him with Ray of Enfeeblement and Ray of Exhaistion (Twice if necessary). He should be paralyzed after that due to lack of Str.

Once he's blind and paralyzed, you have won.

Raolin_Fenix
2007-09-21, 11:31 PM
Um, Resist Energy: Fire, Lightning? Probably a good start. :smallbiggrin:

After that, see TLN's Guide.

TheOOB
2007-09-21, 11:43 PM
Um, Resist Energy: Fire, Lightning? Probably a good start. :smallbiggrin:

After that, see TLN's Guide.

A level five wizard against a level five wizard probably doesn't have ample time to buff themselves, blindness/deafness is the way to go round 1, just make sure to move after you blind them so they have trouble hitting you with a random fireball. If they where a low Will class you would have so many more options at this level, but one of the tricks to being a good wizard is to target their lowest save. Unfortunately there is a lack of good Reflex save or lose spells, with wall of stone being the only good core one I can think of.

Taking on a blaster this low level with no time to prepare is very difficult as a single scorching ray could quite easily kill you, if you get a couple rounds to prepare you would be well served by displacement and invisibility, and if you have enough time, yes, resist fire.

Also remind your friend that blasting is worst against monsters and such, which adventuring parties usually face. They tend to have a disproportional high number of hit dice (and thus hp) for their CR, which increases the value of save or die and save or lose and decreases the value of direct damage. If all enemies had a number of d4 hit dice equal to yours, blasting wouldn't be so bad.

Dervag
2007-09-21, 11:53 PM
Place a 5 gallon jug of Alchemist's Fire on the ground, near the blind, int-drained wizard, and cast Misers Envy... Making him desire the alchemical fire inside the Jug.

Laugh.How can he tell that the jug is there?

Bassetking
2007-09-22, 12:10 AM
How can he tell that the jug is there?

He can't.

That's the beauty/ He can't see it, but will, by the text of Miser's Envy, immediately begin passionately, fervently, ignoring everything else (Like, say, someone stabbing him to death with a mouth-dart((1 damage per stab for humiliation!))). Should he actually manage to stumble onto the jar, and find himself capable of obtaining that for which he lusts...

He blows himself sky-high, and dies in a hideous holocaust of chemical incendiary, coveting and cherishing that which is killing him.

Solo
2007-09-22, 12:15 AM
You know, two level 5 wizards dueling.... if one of them was a kobold....

Chronos
2007-09-22, 12:16 AM
Just plain annoying: Spectral hand + touch of idiocy. If you're lucky, he'll lose enough intelligence for his 3rd level spells to stop functioning, and at the least should make his save DCs suck.You don't want to use Spectral Hand for this fight. All of the other guy's good spells are ranged anyway, so staying at a distance doesn't do you any good. And in fact, getting to melee range actually helps you, since it means that he can't safely hit you with a Fireball (probably his best bet for killing you).

Also, you probably want to do best three out of five, or best four out of seven, or so. At low levels like this, dumb luck can play a big part in the outcome of a battle, and you don't want to have to put up with him in the chance that he wins. Make sure that you ask for "best of" before the first battle, so he can't just say you're a sore loser. This does mean that he'll have a chance to learn your tactics, but there's not much he can do to counter them with blasting spells. And if he uses a non-blasting spell to beat you, then he's just proven your point for you.

Finally, if you do get a chance to cast Resist Elements, you might actually consider protecting against Acid instead of Fire. At those levels, concentration checks aren't a guarantee, so Acid Arrow becomes a severe annoyance for mages. You can't afford to get shut down for two rounds.

Renegade Paladin
2007-09-22, 12:33 AM
You know, he isn't exactly wrong. The battlefield is controlled when the enemy is dead.

Draz74
2007-09-22, 12:43 AM
Pump Dex and Int as high as possible. as possible. Get Spel Focus and Greater Spell Focus in necromancy.

Win initiative and blind him.

hit him with Ray of Enfeeblement and Ray of Exhaistion (Twice if necessary). He should be paralyzed after that due to lack of Str.

Once he's blind and paralyzed, you have won.

I'd say pump Dex and Int as high as possible, get Greater Spell Focus Conjuration, win initiative and Stinking Cloud him. Then Grease him. Then Ray of Enfeeblement and Ray of Exhaustion. Carry a scythe (even though you're not proficient with it) for a coup de grace. :smallamused:

Stinking Cloud will have a save DC +1 compared to Blindness, and if it works, you won't need to get lucky for one turn while he blindly aims a Fireball at you (which could very well hit).

Ryshan Ynrith
2007-09-22, 04:28 AM
Ray of Stupidity from the spell compendium-1d4+1 INT damage, no save. Particularly if you're using the Elite array, this will shut down his high-level spells, and it's only second level. From the Spell Compendium.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-22, 04:54 AM
You will need a high Con score for this. Otherwise, his 5d6 fireball will likely be more than your 5d4 hit points.

leperkhaun
2007-09-22, 07:44 AM
hmmmm, hold person, blindness, then ray of enfeblment until he cant move. Summon monster for a grappling monster so he cant cast.

Its going to be tough at level 5 because you dont have a whole lot of spells and you will have low health so if you eat 2 fireballs its pretty much over.

You have to either take away his actions (via spell like hold person or with grapple checks), remove his ability to use verbal/somatic components (so his spell choice is lessened), or remove his ability to target you (blindness or some such).

If you dont do that he is just going to throw 2 fireballs, all his second level spells will be scorching rays, and his 1st level spells will be Magic missle. Since you wont have the HP to survive all of that, you got to lock him down.

Another option is to cast invis, then summon about 50 things on him.

Overlard
2007-09-22, 09:55 AM
Don't get too hung up on Ray Of Enfeeblement. It's a strength penalty, not damage, and doesn't stack with itself. A second application may not have any effect at all (if you roll lower than your first attack). If he has dumped Str (likely), then a good shot might bring his Str down to 1, but don't keep trying to do that when you could be harming him in other, more effective ways.

daggaz
2007-09-22, 10:57 AM
Win initiative. Turn invisible and get as close to him as possible, preferably close enough that he fireballs somewhere further and safer away. Proceed to use various tactics mentioned above, quite a few will work.

You said it yourself, he is a blaster. His favorite spell of all time is probably fireball. It is also his most "powerful" spell for this fight, turning him on even more. You go invisible, so he immediately thinks he needs an area of effect to hit you, hence fireball. He probably feels dangerous and powerful, and thus expects you to fear him, and therefor, in his mind, he will probably expect you to try to sneak away to buff up or just avoid him, so he will try to guess which direction you sneak off in and fireball there. He has a low chance of guessing you will head right to him (preferably standing right next to him, but not in front of him, in case he actually figures it out) and wont want to fireball too close anyhow, as he fears his own mighty destructive blasting power as well. So there is one wasted max circle spell for him.

Wizards win because they are smarter than their enemies.

Solo
2007-09-22, 10:59 AM
Seriously, though, if you'll be a level 5 wizard, you could go for a Kobold Divine Minion/Master of Many Forms...

That'll show him:smallamused:

Chronos
2007-09-22, 11:50 AM
On thinking about this some more, you can guarantee a win if you win initiative. For your first spell, cast Web, centered a little in front of him. No matter what he does or what the dice do, that gives you total cover relative to him, meaning that he can't use any of his spells on you. The best he can do is to use a Burning Hands to clear away some of the webs (if he can make the concentration check for being entangled), and that would still do 2d4 damage to himself.

On following turns, cast Stinking Cloud, and then summon two fire elementals right next to him (I'm assuming specialization and a 16 Int, so three 3rd-level spells). The Stinking Cloud will probably shut down all of his remaining actions (he has to save every round he remains in the spell, which is going to be the rest of the battle, thanks to the Web), and even if he does manage to cast a spell, the elementals are immune to most of his spells. Meanwhile, elementals don't need to breathe, so they'll be unaffected by the Stinking Cloud, and they weren't present when the web was cast, so they're not entangled, either.

This uses only material from core, so they'll almost certainly be allowed under the rules you're using, and as an added bonus, all the spells are Conjuration, so you can bar whatever schools you want.

Do note that this is dependent on you surviving the first round. Improved Initiative is a must, as is as high a dexterity you can manage (higher even than your Int, if you can afford it and still get a 16 Int). Grey Elf would be ideal if allowed, or halfling if not (which also gets the advantage of a +1 to all saves, and no Con penalty). A high Dex will also give you a better (though still not great) chance to save vs. his Fireball or not get hit by his Acid Arrow, if he should happen to win initiative. And if you can, try to goad him into wasting feats on Maximize Spell, Empower Spell, or Widen Spell: They're very appealing for a blaster, but they'll be useless in this battle due to the level limitation, and every feat he spends on one of those is a feat not spent on Improved Initiative.

Ponce
2007-09-22, 12:01 PM
Nerveskitter (SC, Wiz2) will provide you with +5 to your initiative roll against him. You'll probably win initiative and with it the match.

Tor the Fallen
2007-09-23, 11:40 AM
Energy Substitution: It ain't fire, bitch.

Just because he's playing a blaster, doesn't make him a retard. Those fireballs could end up being coldballs, acidballs, or lightningballs.

Ranis
2007-09-23, 12:13 PM
Chronos, what spell were you using to summon the fire elementals; and, wouldn't they burn through the web?

kjones
2007-09-23, 12:34 PM
Summon Monster III gets you a small fire elemental, and while it logically makes sense that a fire elemental would ignite flammable materials around it, the SRD has nothing on this, and it does specifically mention this quality for other monsters.

The only way for a 5th level wizard to get energy substitution is to be a specialist evoker variant from Unearthed Arcana.

Tor the Fallen
2007-09-23, 12:45 PM
The only way for a 5th level wizard to get energy substitution is to be a specialist evoker variant from Unearthed Arcana.

What makes you so sure?

lord_khaine
2007-09-23, 12:45 PM
at this lv, winning is all above winning initiative, so no matter what, whoever actualy wins doesnt actualy prove anything.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-23, 12:50 PM
I'm surprised to learn that creatures walking into, or summoned into, an existing web are not subject to entanglement; however, this appears to be the case.

On the other hand, the Web spell does mention that fire causes it to burn up, damaging the people who are trapped.

kjones
2007-09-23, 12:52 PM
What makes you so sure?

I'm not sure, but energy substitution without adding levels to the spell is rare outside of the Archmage PrC, which is a very high-level thing. I'd be surprised if energy substitution was available in some other form.

If you have to add levels, it's worthless, of course. What are you going to do for a 2nd level evocation spell? Sonic Sphere instead of Flaming Sphere?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-09-23, 12:56 PM
Invisible wall between you and him. Act like he surprised you and have him cast fireball at you... hitting the wall and blowing himself up.


Regular wall, just cast invisibility on it. Maybe a door... some obstacle is all I'm saying.

Casting Invisibility on a normal wall is not going to turn it into glass. :smallamused:

Tor the Fallen
2007-09-23, 12:57 PM
I'm not sure, but energy substitution without adding levels to the spell is rare outside of the Archmage PrC, which is a very high-level thing. I'd be surprised if energy substitution was available in some other form.

If you have to add levels, it's worthless, of course. What are you going to do for a 2nd level evocation spell? Sonic Sphere instead of Flaming Sphere?

What if I were to tell you that the feat doesn't increase the spell level?

Chronos
2007-09-23, 01:18 PM
Fire elementals have a chance to light on fire anything they attack, and webs are flammable. So presumably, if he fails his save vs. a fire elemental's burn, the webs which are entangling him will burn away. But by that time, he's had to save vs. the Stinking Cloud at least twice, he's taking continuing fire damage from the burn (making spellcasting difficult even if he did save against the stink), he's taken an extra 2d4 on top of what the elementals are doing from the burning web, and most of the web's area is still intact, making it difficult for him to target you even if he does manage to get off a spell somehow. Even without being entangled, I'm not seeing him coming back from that point.

And he doesn't need Energy Substitution to kill the elementals: A Lightning Bolt would also do the trick. But he can still only kill one at a time. Even if he manages to make his fortitude saves and concentration checks to kill both of them, he's now used up 2/3 of his best spells. Meanwhile, you don't have to rest on your laurels after the second elemental: You've still got first and second level spell slots available, which you could use (for instance) to summon more monsters. All of the critters from Summon Monster I and II still need to breathe, so they're potentially vulnerable to the stench, but they'll still have better fortitude saves than he does.

Tor the Fallen
2007-09-23, 01:27 PM
And he doesn't need Energy Substitution to kill the elementals:

You: Protection elements: fire!
Him: It's a good thing I prepared this fireball as an acidball!

Green Bean
2007-09-23, 01:29 PM
You: Protection elements: fire!
Him: It's a good thing I prepared this fireball as an acidball!

Assuming he passes his Fort save (which is a pretty big assumption)

cody.burton
2007-09-23, 01:29 PM
The only Energy Substitution feat I know of is a metamagic from Complete Arcane that takes +1 spell level. Where are you getting this +0 version from?

Green Bean
2007-09-23, 01:32 PM
The only Energy Substitution feat I know of is a metamagic from Complete Arcane that takes +1 spell level. Where are you getting this +0 version from?

Probably this one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#energySubstitution)

Kaelik
2007-09-23, 01:57 PM
Actually they are probably getting it from the Complete Arcane one that adds +0 spell level. You should probably reread that feat.

PaladinBoy
2007-09-23, 03:17 PM
I'd have to agree with some others and say that a duel situation doesn't really represent the difference in power level between a blaster and a batman. In fact, fighting a very squishy target in a duel probably favors the blaster.

This depends almost entirely on initiative. If you win, you have any number of save-or-suck options available. Although, you could be in trouble if he rolls high on his saving throw. If he wins, he can blast you to bits with an evocation. Although, if he rolls low, it might not kill you.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-23, 04:48 PM
I think odds are still in favor of Batman.

Given a 14-16 constitution, the Bat has enough hit points to survive at least one blast to the face, even if he fails his saving throw, and quite possibly two (because odds are he'd save against at least one of them). Three gets iffy. If Bats wins initiative, he gets at least two save-or-lose effects off, possibly three. If Batty loses initiative, he still gets at least one off, which can end the battle then and there, and possibly two.

No guarantees, but the odds are decent.

Dullyanna
2007-09-23, 05:19 PM
@Kanis: You're keeping race, ability scores and whatnot equal, right? 'cause if one of you wins just by having a higher intelligence and/or dexterity, that doesn't really prove anything.

PMDM
2007-09-23, 07:44 PM
I totally forget. Do we have enough gold to buy any useful magic items? We have a little more than 5000 gold pieces to spend. That means we can buy potions of protection of energy. Or a counterspelling ring. Or even a metamagic rod, we can extend, or enlarge, 3 spells of our choice.
We can buy most any scroll in the core system, but that isn't going to help out too much, unless you wanna gamble a backfire. Wands might actually help your opponent. He could cast magic missle many more times than normal. But I doubt wands will be that helpful to any of you.
You can get a cloak of resistance for only 1000 gp, but he can get a Necklace of fireballs type 3 for 4,350. That's assuming he wants to miss out on a +2 intelligence. You can have both, however.

So I would personally go with the Counterspell ring, with a fireball put in for preparations. The cloack is nice, but I doubt the clock will make much of a differance. Overall, all you have to worry about is his fireball necklace. But that's it in terms of magic items.

Then again, I'm no powergamer, so I really don't know.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-23, 07:52 PM
By the way, what familiar did you choose? I think the one that grants +3 HP would be helpful, but what do you guys thinkk.

Also, make sure to but potions of protection from fire and electricity (or whatever they're called).

Riffington
2007-09-23, 08:27 PM
Being a wizard doesn't mean you can't have high strength and Improved Grapple. He'll never see it coming.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-23, 08:30 PM
Being a wizard doesn't mean you can't have high strength and Improved Grapple. He'll never see it coming.

"He'll never see it coming."

The ultimate Wizard build!!

martyboy74
2007-09-23, 08:48 PM
If you have Frostburn and CArc, you could use a Sudden Maximized Shivering Touch. That'd be 18 points of dex damage if you made a melee touch attack and got past his (probably nonexistant) SR.

BardicDuelist
2007-09-23, 08:53 PM
If you have Frostburn and CArc, you could use a Sudden Maximized Shivering Touch. That'd be 18 points of dex damage if you made a melee touch attack and got past his (probably nonexistant) SR.

This wins in a lot of situations, actually.

Generic PC
2007-09-23, 09:27 PM
Course, youd have to touch him, so this would take a round if you won init.

Also, i think that somewhere there is a Hummingbird Familiar that gives a +2 to Initiative. or something.

Starbuck_II
2007-09-23, 09:35 PM
So, by buddy and I have come to a disagreement about Wizards. When he plays a Wizard, he plays a straight blaster, going by the philosophy that if you can blow it up, then it can't hurt the party if it's dead. He disregards and disbelieves my philosophy that the truly good Wizard never has to blast a thing in order to win.

So, we've set up the gauntlet, and he doesn't think that I can prove him wrong under level 10. So we agreed on level 5, and I'm determined to beat him. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can destroy his level 5 wizard without blasting it?

I was going to say throw a book of explosive Runes at him (move action) than cast dispel magic to blow it up as standard, but that counts as blasting doesn't it?

Shivering touch wins though.

Even better cast silence on yourself and beat him down with a stick? He can't cast.

BardicDuelist
2007-09-23, 09:36 PM
Course, youd have to touch him, so this would take a round if you won init.

Also, i think that somewhere there is a Hummingbird Familiar that gives a +2 to Initiative. or something.

It's not perfect, I'll admit.

Really, I think the best way to test the effectiveness of a wizard is to have him solo a short dungeon. I know it has allready been said, but yeah.

Dullyanna
2007-09-23, 09:52 PM
The whole point is to prove to the other guy that Batman's better than blasters. Grappling him or using a direct damage spell kind of defeats the purpose. That being said, I have to agree with BardicDuelist on the mini dungeon idea.

Ranis
2007-09-23, 10:28 PM
I know that there's no way in hells that I'm surviving a spell if he casts it; knowing him, he's going to take Sudden Maximize like four times, and maximize each spell he throws at me until one hits and I am a barbecue. So I need to immobilize him, ASAP.

Also, I definitely agree that this doesn't prove anything at level 5. I'm going to suggest that we up the stakes to level 10, and it'll get pretty fun from there.

And if we do the minidungeon thing, there is no doubt in my mind that I will stomp him flat.

Collin152
2007-09-23, 10:43 PM
Don't neglect your familliar, either; it can deliver touch spells, and if he choses to blast it instead, you just survived another round and can therefore get a bigger lead.

Solo
2007-09-23, 10:46 PM
he's going to take Sudden Maximize like four times, and maximize each spell he throws at me until one hits

You can't do that.

Ranis
2007-09-23, 10:48 PM
Huh? Why not? You can take it multiple times, and just say it before you cast the spell....

Eldritch_Ent
2007-09-23, 10:59 PM
Huh? Why not? You can take it multiple times, and just say it before you cast the spell....

I think a feat like that would be a bit above a level 5 Wizard's abilities, and probably has a prerequisite or two- including probably getting Maximize Spell as a feat. (At level 5 with 5 feats? What are you- a fighter? :smallwink: )

Solo
2007-09-23, 11:03 PM
It has no prerequisites, but you can't take the same feat multiple times and apply it over and over again....


Someone will be along shortly to tell me why that can't happen.

Chronos
2007-09-23, 11:12 PM
You can get a cloak of resistance for only 1000 gp, but he can get a Necklace of fireballs type 3 for 4,350. That's assuming he wants to miss out on a +2 intelligence. You can have both, however.Gloves of Dexterity would be much more valuable than a Cloak of Resistance. All of his spells will have Reflex saves or touch attack rolls, and the gloves will also help with the all-important initiative roll. A Ring of Counterspells is useless here, since neither Fireball nor Lightning Bolt targets a person: It just targets an area, and hits any creatures that happen to be in that area. Potions are probably also useless, since any round spent drinking a potion is a round not spent casting a spell, and the most useful potions (energy resistance) you can cast yourself anyway, and not have to spend the money. Rings of energy resistance would be great, except that they cost too much for level 5.

Ranis, exactly what sources will be allowed for this battle? I was assuming core only, because anything else will benefit you a lot more than him (there's only so much benefit he can gain from new and exciting blasting spells, but there's a lot of good utility spells for you). Well, also because I don't know anything but core that well, but plenty of other folks here can help you out with that. But your mention of Sudden Maximize implies that other books are available, since that's not core. Which ones exactly?

Oh, and don't be so pessimistic. A hit from a maximized fireball or lightning bolt will surely kill you... If you fail the save. But the DC isn't going to be higher than 19 (if he's a grey elf with max Int and Spell Focus), and you'll be able to manage a +5 or +6 to your reflex save even without magic items, giving you better than a 1 in 3 chance to make your saving throw (thus taking 15 damage, which, with any con bonus at all, will leave you alive).

GeneralTacticus
2007-09-23, 11:32 PM
Another possibility to go along with the Web strategy - rather than summoning fire elementals, summon Huge Monstrous Centipedes instead, and have them grapple him. With a +15 grapple modifier, he's not getting away; one turn of grappling should have him pinned and unable to speak (hence unable to cast at all), and any other creatures you summon (more centipedes, a fire elemental... whatever you like) can pound away to their heart's content.

Anything I missed?

The_Werebear
2007-09-24, 02:09 AM
It has no prerequisites, but you can't take the same feat multiple times and apply it over and over again....


Someone will be along shortly to tell me why that can't happen.

It actually has another spell as a prerequisite (any metamagic).

In any case, you can only take a feat multiple times if it specifically says you can. Taking Sudden Maximize five times will allow him the ability to cast a spell as if Maximized 1/day. Just like taking it once would.

Now, if you could pull that tactic, the feat would have said something along the lines of "You can take this feat multiple times. Each time allows you to use this feat one extra time per day. " Lacking this, multiple sudden maximizes are no good.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-24, 02:46 AM
I know that there's no way in hells that I'm surviving a spell if he casts it
Yes, there is. A maximized fireball at level five does 30 points of damage; I'm reasonably sure there isn't anything that does more than that at such a low level. So as long as you have at least 31 hit points, you can take one hit. Since he can miss or you can make your save, you can possibly take two.

Con 16 nets you 19+4d4 hit points, 29 on average. Many DMs let you re-roll ones, making it 31 on average. Or you could take that +3 hp familiar, or the toughness feat. Or, here's a thought, play a Battle Sorcerer. They're on d20srd.org, and have d8 hit points. Con 16, level 5, average of 41, or 47 with rerolled ones.

I would avoid using Shivering Touch, however. It is widely known as one of the most broken wizard spells around its level (one-shotting a dragon? Yes please!) so winning with that doesn't prove anything.

I think there's a few races out there with fire resistance, but most of them have an LA.

Rad
2007-09-24, 02:57 AM
Yes, there is. A maximized fireball at level five does 30 points of damage; I'm reasonably sure there isn't anything that does more than that at such a low level. So as long as you have at least 31 hit points, you can take one hit. Since he can miss or you can make your save, you can possibly take two.

Con 16 nets you 19+4d4 hit points, 29 on average. Many DMs let you re-roll ones, making it 31 on average. Or you could take that +3 hp familiar, or the toughness feat. Or, here's a thought, play a Battle Sorcerer. They're on d20srd.org, and have d8 hit points. Con 16, level 5, average of 41, or 47 with rerolled ones.

I would avoid using Shivering Touch, however. It is widely known as one of the most broken wizard spells around its level (one-shotting a dragon? Yes please!) so winning with that doesn't prove anything.

I think there's a few races out there with fire resistance, but most of them have an LA.

There is the chance of a sudden empowered, sudden maximized fireball. I would not bother getting 31 HP to be then hit with 45 damage (or is it 30+1/2*5d6? More than 31 however).
It would be a nice use of thoughness though.

I second you on shivering touch... that's hardly battlefield control.

PMDM
2007-09-24, 08:29 AM
Yes, there is. A maximized fireball at level five does 30 points of damage; I'm reasonably sure there isn't anything that does more than that at such a low level. So as long as you have at least 31 hit points, you can take one hit. Since he can miss or you can make your save, you can possibly take two.

Con 16 nets you 19+4d4 hit points, 29 on average. Many DMs let you re-roll ones, making it 31 on average. Or you could take that +3 hp familiar, or the toughness feat. Or, here's a thought, play a Battle Sorcerer. They're on d20srd.org, and have d8 hit points. Con 16, level 5, average of 41, or 47 with rerolled ones.

I would avoid using Shivering Touch, however. It is widely known as one of the most broken wizard spells around its level (one-shotting a dragon? Yes please!) so winning with that doesn't prove anything.

I think there's a few races out there with fire resistance, but most of them have an LA.

Metamagic increases a spell's slot level. Maximize increases by 3 levels (ouch!). So a maximized fireball (originally a level 3 spell) becomes a level 6 spell. He could maximize magic missle, but there's no way he can maximize fireball at level 5.

Which is almost as good, 20 points of force damage garenteed is almost better than the average of 21 points of fire damage.

As for the magic items, he can't own both the gloves of deterity and the cloak of intellegance too. He has to pick.

Citizen Joe
2007-09-24, 08:38 AM
Metamagic increases a spell's slot level. Maximize increases by 3 levels (ouch!). So a maximized fireball (originally a level 3 spell) becomes a level 6 spell. He could maximize magic missle, but there's no way he can maximize fireball at level 5.
He could only maximize a level 0 spell by level 5

Maximized Magic Missile is level 4.

Rad
2007-09-24, 09:07 AM
Sudden Maximize is a different feat, comes from Complete Arcane (not checking), and allows you to maximize a spell as you cast it with no level increase 1/day.

kme
2007-09-24, 09:11 AM
You may wish to use summoned monsters if you have a way of avoiding his attacks(invisibility :smallwink: or run behind a corner).Just summon them one by one and he will spend all his spells to deal with them.

As for maximize, there is always sudden maximize.That may actually be a good idea for him.

Rad
2007-09-24, 09:40 AM
Actually, trying to build HIS character and strategies sounds fun... sudden max and sudden empower look nice for him. See invisibility and dispel magic are good choices too. After all he needs one spell to hit you, all the rest is defense.
Improved initiative goes for his third feat as well as high dex if he wants to hit with rays.
A sudden extended fireball hits a 40' radius which is likely more than your move, allowing him to hit you if you become invisible by targeting the spot you used to be in. His own move should be enough to be out of the way himself.
Shivering touch is also his field IMHO.

Solo
2007-09-24, 09:46 AM
So when does the throwdown go down?

DeathQuaker
2007-09-24, 10:13 AM
I'd be picky and call for core-only spells and abilities. There's too much cheese favoring blasters in the splatbooks.

But... if not... then study your own splatbooks well and counter cheese with cheese.

I can only provide some insights on general ideas and core spells that might be useful:

- In general, don't do anything requiring a Will save. He'll probably have a good one. Things that need Fortitude Saves (Blindness/Deafness, Reduce Person) are a good bet. And of course focus on buffing yourself up as well.

- Sleet Storm: block his line of sight and render him largely immobile. This makes your own subsequent attacks difficult, however.

- Buff'n'attack him. Enlarge (or Reduce) Person, Haste, any [Animal's] [Attribute] spell, Expeditious Retreat. These require good initiative and planning.

- Touch of Idiocy, if you're going to attack him directly.

- Summon Monster III. Use that to distract him while you buff yourself and put the drop on him.

Rad
2007-09-24, 10:54 AM
hummm.... buffing takes time...

Draz74
2007-09-24, 11:08 AM
Indeed ... the biggest question in this duel is, "do you have any rounds before combat starts to buff yourself"?

Ranis
2007-09-24, 11:10 AM
I talked to him earlier today, and he agrees with me about the whole "it won't matter at level 5" thing, so we're going to up the stakes I think, and go with level 10. He didn't like the idea of the mini-dungeon because he knew he'd lose :smallbiggrin: so I don't know what exactly we're doing at this point. More news as it comes available, but I do know that we're going at level 10.

Reason we're still going at all is because he still doesn't understand that the answer to everything isn't blasting, btw.

Keld Denar
2007-09-24, 11:16 AM
There is a cloak in the Mini Handbook that gives you energy resistance 10 as an immediate action vs the first type of energy you choose once a day. That would be invaluable to you. It's versitile, and it takes a lot of the edge off his first nuke of the day, whatever it may be.

Use nerve skitter with improved init to get a 9+dex init bonus (probably a +12 if halfling or greyelf). You should win, and if you don't, the cloak will absorb most fo the 1st hit.

Then drop a web on him. If he doesn't scoop then and there, laugh at him for 1d4+1 rounds, then go to town with the above mentioned stinking cloud + fire elementals.

Another idea would be ray of stupidity from SC. If you took spell focus (school of RoS) and metamagic school focus (school of RoS) and split ray, you can drop 2d4+2 int damage on him with a ranged touch from a 3rd level spell. That's an average of 7 int damage no save, which will drop him from int 18 to int 11, which is 1st level spells only. A good roll will drop him to 10 or less, disabling all casting. Then he's just a 5th level commoner in fancy robes. Then get a giant centapede and cast ray of enfeeblement on him. He'll never EVER get out, in there is a good chance it will paralyze him as well.

One thing to watch for, is if he wins init, he might ready a nuke to cast to disrupt your casting. The most obvious choice being lightning bolt or magic missile. If he does that, wait him out, or cast anyway and hope its something elemental that the cloak will eat most of. If he MMs you, its trouble. Therefore, don't lose initiative! ;)

Kurald Galain
2007-09-24, 11:17 AM
Congratulations, you've just won the fight.

At tenth level, elemental resistance items are quite affordable. Plus, there's this nifty spell called Contingent Energy Resistance, which makes you resistant to whatever kind of energy you're hit with first.

Ranis
2007-09-24, 11:26 AM
Ooh, what book is that in and how much resistance does it offer?

Fax Celestis
2007-09-24, 11:38 AM
As a blaster, he is going to have remarkably low Strength. Might I recommend ray of enfeeblement?

ZeroNumerous
2007-09-24, 11:41 AM
10th level Batman-VS-Blaster Win Tactic:

This requires no choice of feats for yourself, as it's a very basic tactic.

Round 1: Cast Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser. Move 30 feet in the direction of cover.
Round 2: Cast Solid Fog on him. Move behind the cover mentioned in the previous round.
Round 3: Cloudkill. We're done here.
Round 4-10: Maniacal laughter as he chokes and dies.

Alternatively:

Round 1: Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser.
Round 2: Greater Invisibility.
Round 3: Move within 5 feet.
Round 4: Feeblemind.

Finally: Call shenanigans if he casts Mind Blank. :smallbiggrin:

Riffington
2007-09-24, 12:03 PM
The blaster strategy here is going to rely on mobility, I think. As wizards, you will have low hp and healing will be potions-only. Whether he needs to one-shot you or wear you down with smaller blasts, he doesn't need to rely on combos. So he moves in and blasts. If you start one of your nasty combos, defences, or buffs, he simply needs to leave and wait for spell durations to end. Besides, blasts have something of a range advantage...

Ranis
2007-09-24, 12:04 PM
Okay, we just set the boundaries. We're going to do two matches, each best two out of three, one match at level three and one match at level ten. 30 point buy, wealth by level. I'm determined to cream him both matches.

Each of us will be a core Wizard. Sky's the limit based on that. Someone else will make the maps, so I don't know what to expect there. But there will be about six of them to roll randomly for.

The gauntlet has now been OFFICIALLY thrown down. Now I need to put up or shut up.

Keld Denar
2007-09-24, 12:12 PM
Level 3 is easy. Nerveskitter + imp init to win initiative. Cast sleep. CDG with a scythe. Your DC (11 +4 int +1 focus = 16, his save +3-4, aprox 60% chance sucess)

For higher levels...

There is also the energy immunity armor upgrade from MIC. It's a contingent energy immunity that activates when you are exposed to energy damage. It makes you completely immune to that flavor of damage for quite a while. It's cost is that of a +1 upgrade. Buy a mithril buckler +1 of energy immunity (4000g + mith buckler). That'll give you the 1 round you need to win at 0% spell failure.

As for the win, web is just as viable at level 10 as it was at level 5. Even if he makes the reflex save, he probably won't make the str checks to move anywhere. He could dim door out of it, but thats why you have anticipate teleport running (24 hour duration) like any good paranoid wizard, right? Anticipate teleport buys you 2 rounds (because of the way dim door ends your turn when it finishes). The first turn, drop an solid fog where he'll pop into being, the 2nd, while he's there, cast web or evards (or both). Now he's stuck, probably out of dim doors, unable to cast, unable to move (he can move 5' every other round provided he makes a DC 20 str check vs web or 3 opposed grapple checks vs your caster level vs evards), and unable to target you. Now you can wait till the evards crushes him, or season with acid fog or cloudkill (or anything else really) to taste.

GG my friend, you have just won.

Laugh for 1d4+1 rounds. Teleport away.

Techonce
2007-09-24, 01:10 PM
As a level 3 wizard. Spells to think about:

Summon swarm, rats.
Color spray
Sleep



Other things:

True Strike, Launch Bolt and a slaying arrow!

Wall fo force

Feeblemind!

Enervation

Phantasmal Killer

Wall of Ice (hemisphere version)

Resiliant Sphere on him and then buff yourself to the max

Black Tentacles (of forceful intrustion!)

Renegade Paladin
2007-09-24, 04:50 PM
I still say there's no point to this exercise. If you win initiative he's immobilized in some way and then killed; if he wins initiative you're hit with a metric ton of damage and die. This holds true all the way up through 20th level when the opposed spells are meteor swarm and mass hold monster. Nobody's proving anything. And the battlefield is still controlled when your enemies are dead.

Just Alex
2007-09-24, 05:16 PM
If you manage to lose at level 10, you've committed epic failure. I'm pretty sure Celerity is 4th level. Even without Time Stop cleverness, casting Celerity and something along the lines of Evard's Tentacles, Bands of Steel, Walls of Stuff, etc should give you sufficient time to avoid anything he can dish out.

Renegade Paladin
2007-09-24, 05:18 PM
If you manage to lose at level 10, you've committed epic failure. I'm pretty sure Celerity is 4th level. Even without Time Stop cleverness, casting Celerity and something along the lines of Evard's Tentacles, Bands of Steel, Walls of Stuff, etc should give you sufficient time to avoid anything he can dish out.
:smallsigh: He can do all that too.

Look, there's nothing here that says he can only prepare direct damage spells. A blaster gets his killing done through damage; that doesn't mean he can't buff himself.

Chronos
2007-09-24, 05:34 PM
Level 3 is easy. Nerveskitter + imp init to win initiative. Cast sleep. CDG with a scythe. Your DC (11 +4 int +1 focus = 16, his save +3-4, aprox 60% chance sucess)I wouldn't call a 60% chance of success "easy". Much better to use something where the save doesn't matter, or where it's much harder to make.


I still say there's no point to this exercise. If you win initiative he's immobilized in some way and then killed; if he wins initiative you're hit with a metric ton of damage and die. This holds true all the way up through 20th level when the opposed spells are meteor swarm and mass hold monster.It would be really, really easy at 20th level to survive a meteor swarm. Even assuming that you take a direct hit from all four meteors and are hence denied your save, a mere fire resistance 10 will cut the damage down to an average of 72, and even a +1 con bonus will give you that many HP. If you instead have fire resistance 20, you'll be able to shrug off almost all of the fire damage, and take only 32 points. Or you could have a contingency set up which will whisk you out of danger, or you could cast from hiding through a Project Image, or a chain of them, or you could be (improved) invisible already when the battle starts, or...

Draz74
2007-09-24, 05:57 PM
Um, guys? When he announced the new battle plan (3rd and 10th levels), he also said a new guideline of CORE ONLY. No Celerity. No Nerveskitter. No Energy Immunity Armor or items that adapt to the type of energy thrown at him.