Balancing "Level Adjustment: -"

[rferries]

Some monsters are considered unsuitable for PCs. The LA-Assignment thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?569969-The-LA-assignment-thread-V-Escape-from-LA) deals with calculating the actual value of these "broken" abilities, but I wonder if it's possible to brew alternative abilities on par with those of class levels?

For example, a medusa's gaze. Would it be workable for PCs, given one or more of these limits:

1) Deals Dexterity (or Wisdom) damage instead of being a save/lose effect (with creatures only being petrified if their Dexterity reaches 0).

2) Can't affect creatures whose CR is greater than your own -4 (subject to negotiation).

3) A limit on uses per day, similar to a sorcerer casting their most power spell for every encounter?

If this is too much of a debuff, he medusa's racial Hit Dice could be reworked to give additional class features, probably as a rogue or ranger.

Other monsters could be reworked - e.g. undead with Create Spawn could all have a standardised limit of how many spawn they can create, or it could be ruled that spawn are always free-willed.

[Goaty14]

Yes, but at some point along the way of "balancing LA", you either make something along the lines of the PF Race Builder (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/creating-new-races/) (allowing players to have monstrous abilities for a certain, variable, cost), or Oslecamo's Improved Monster Classes (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?board=34.0) (allowing players to take levels in "monsters", and adding/nerfing abilities to the 'brewer's set balance point), and at that point, why aren't you contributing/improving those systems instead?

[rferries]

Yes, but at some point along the way of "balancing LA", you either make something along the lines of the PF Race Builder (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/creating-new-races/) (allowing players to have monstrous abilities for a certain, variable, cost), or Oslecamo's Improved Monster Classes (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?board=34.0) (allowing players to take levels in "monsters", and adding/nerfing abilities to the 'brewer's set balance point), and at that point, why aren't you contributing/improving those systems instead?

I hadn't seen that PF resource before - thanks, but it doesn't seem to account for the "broken" monstrous abilities (gaze attacks etc).

Always good to see Oslecamo's work - definitely more along the lines of what I was thinking. As an alternative to his work though, I was thinking more of reworking specific existing monstrous abilities (i.e. so that PCs start play with all their abilities, rather than progressing through monstrous classes). There might be a happy medium allowing some progression e.g. a medusa's gaze starts off dealing only 1d4 Dex damage, with an additional 1d4 per six levels or somesuch. A bodak's could deal Con damage instead, an energy-draining undead might instead deal +1d6 negative energy damage instead of inflicting negative levels, and so forth.

[deuterio12]

I hadn't seen that PF resource before - thanks, but it doesn't seem to account for the "broken" monstrous abilities (gaze attacks etc).

Always good to see Oslecamo's work - definitely more along the lines of what I was thinking. As an alternative to his work though, I was thinking more of reworking specific existing monstrous abilities (i.e. so that PCs start play with all their abilities, rather than progressing through monstrous classes). There might be a happy medium allowing some progression e.g. a medusa's gaze starts off dealing only 1d4 Dex damage, with an additional 1d4 per six levels or somesuch. A bodak's could deal Con damage instead, an energy-draining undead might instead deal +1d6 negative energy damage instead of inflicting negative levels, and so forth.

The medusa class (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1899.0) there does seem to start with a weaker version of the petrification gaze that upgrades along the levels. Several other monster classes already done follow a similar pattern of starting with weaker versions of the original abilities that grow in strength with levels, in particular incorporeal monsters start with a custom weaker version that slowly upgrades to full.

However eventually some monsters just have more abilities than you can fit in a first level even in weaker forms, in particular all those outsiders with giant piles of SLAs.

[nonsi]

.

My attitude toward LA is that you don't buy it off, but that it decreases as your advantage becomes less evident. Once the advantages granted by the factors that merit LA decrease, so does the LA should decrease.
I understand that this is a tricky part, because it's very fluid - according to the causes of LA and the character build.
Reason: Paying a bit now to circumvent paying more later seems like cheating to me and encourages LA for the sake of char-op metagaming.


The gaze-attack part reminds me of 5e's solution to petrifaction:
Petrifaction is a 2-stage process: If you fail your save, you're Restrained for 1 round (a new condition in 5e - I think the only one, but a noteworthy addition). Then you make another save that determines if you overcome the effect or become petrified.
Cockatrice petrifaction is temporary (24h IIRC) and Basilisk's gullet contains juices that counteract petrifaction.
All the above bring petrifaction down to size a bit to something that's less immediately terminal at lower levels.

[HouseRules]

Community Based Monster Classes
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142724
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165439
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170469
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177708
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178692
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182724
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192151
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238809

all of the old threads on Monster Classes

[rferries]

Lots of good points, everyone.


Community Based Monster Classes
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142724
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165439
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170469
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177708
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178692
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182724
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192151
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238809

all of the old threads on Monster Classes

Thanks for these!