Optimizing the Nomad's Personal Space ACF

[MaxiDuRaritry]

For those of you who aren't aware, the nomad psion has an alternative class feature (found here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070314a)) called his Personal Space:


Personal Space
You have an extradimensional storage pocket available.
Level: 1st.
Replaces: The bonus feat at 1st level.
Benefit: You gain an extradimensional storage space within your body. You can access it as a psi-like ability by expending your psionic focus. You may send an item to it or retrieve an item as you wish. The size of the storage space grows with your own power. At 1st level it is equivalent to a belt pouch, at 5th level it equals a sack, at 10th level it is the size of a backpack, at 15th level it is the size of a chest, and at 20th level it is the size of a Medium creature.

You cannot store anything that has extradimensional properties, such as a bag of holding , within your personal space. Any attempt will fail.It's a psi-like ability, which means it can be affected by applicable feats and such that affect psi-likes (such as Maximize, Empower, and Quicken Spell-Like Ability, though sadly only the latter actually functions with it). It also expends psionic focus to use, meaning feats like Psicrystal Containment and Psionic Meditation give it a boost indirectly.

Psionics is defined as an innate ability, and if you have the Magic Mantle, psi-likes are the equivalent of spell-likes, meaning it's possible that the Supernatural Transformation feat would function on it. Not that this does much (ST [Psionics] does MUCH more) but it's still a possibility.

Is there a way to significantly boost the size of the extradimensional space, or otherwise give it additional utility?

Multiple bodies (via dvati or the BoVD's hivemind template ability thingy) would either all share one Personal Space between them (thus being able to transfer items from body to body) or each have a separate extradimensional space for each body. Maybe. It's also a possibility that a multi-bodied character could store implanted items in his personal space, so items like the dukar hand coral or quori shards stored in the space would affect all of his bodies. Again, maybe. Depends on if you can convince your DM, I guess.

Beyond that, I'm not really seeing many ways to improve it. Concrete rules that could be used to optimize it (especially feats) would be really nice to see.

I'm eagerly awaiting any ideas.

[Troacctid]

It's pretty much just a free bag of holding, which is honestly pretty decent, so I'd just take it for what it is.

Also, the Magic Mantle doesn't do anything to make psi-likes the equivalent of spell-likes, and you can't pick "Psionics" for Supernatural Transformation (you need to pick a single innate spell-like ability).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's pretty much just a free bag of holding, which is honestly pretty decent, so I'd just take it for what it is.

Also, the Magic Mantle doesn't do anything to make psi-likes the equivalent of spell-likes, and you can't pick "Psionics" for Supernatural Transformation (you need to pick a single innate spell-like ability).Magic Mantle states that, "you always treat magic and psionics as identical." Thus, psi-likes are spell-likes if you take the mantle, since they're identical.

Psionics is explicitly noted to be innate. Thus, a psi-like ability is an innate spell-like ability with the Magic Mantle, which is completely kosher for use with Supernatural Transformation.

As for the "single" innate SLA, psionics is listed as a single ability in monster and class entries. If you can find a source that says otherwise, feel free to list it, but every entry I've ever seen has psionic manifesting listed as "psionics."

Also, I noted several ways to improve the ACF above, even though not many of them are terribly useful (and some require that the DM make a ruling one way or another, so they aren't guaranteed). If you have something useful to add, feel free. Otherwise, you're not being helpful.

[Troacctid]

Magic Mantle states that, "you always treat magic and psionics as identical." Thus, psi-likes are spell-likes if you take the mantle, since they're identical.
Yes, and it also clarifies that most games already treat it this way, which means you can do the exact same thing without the mantle.


Psionics is explicitly noted to be innate. Thus, a psi-like ability is an innate spell-like ability with the Magic Mantle, which is completely kosher for use with Supernatural Transformation.

As for the "single" innate SLA, psionics is listed as a single ability in monster and class entries. If you can find a source that says otherwise, feel free to list it, but every entry I've ever seen has psionic manifesting listed as "psionics."
The glossary defines psionics as multiple abilities. And while you can argue that class-based manifesting is different, the manifesting ability granted by psionic classes is marked as neither (Ps) nor (Sp).


Also, I noted several ways to improve the ACF above, even though not many of them are terribly useful (and some require that the DM make a ruling one way or another, so they aren't guaranteed). If you have something useful to add, feel free. Otherwise, you're not being helpful.
I think rules corrections are helpful.

Also, the embedded stuff doesn't work because the extradimensional space is not part of your body. It's another plane of existence.

[Silva Stormrage]

I mean the best thing IMO it can be used for is for a thief. Maybe not the best idea for a PC but could be an interesting NPC thief. Sleight of hand and then just store it inside you. It's not like anyone could find it on you.

Another note, there doesn't seem to be any method/action specified for storing it in your pocket dimension. Do you just sort of push it inside you? Do you teleport a touched item to the pocket dimension? What action is any of this.

If you teleport items there isn't anything preventing you from grabbing things other people are holding. Use it to store an enemy's sword mid combat. Take their armor/magic items off, etc etc.

Also using the ability with shrink item would allow you to store quiet a lot at low levels. I am not sure what would happen though if you shrink a boulder, store it, and then the spell expires. Do you explode as the extra dimensional space isn't large enough to hold the bolder? Does the bolder not expand?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yes, and it also clarifies that most games already treat it this way, which means you can do the exact same thing without the mantle.How does it know that most games treat magic and psionics as identical as the Magic Mantle does? I don't think it can, since the writers aren't psychic, unlike the characters defined by the psionics ruleset.


The glossary defines psionics as multiple abilities. And while you can argue that class-based manifesting is different, the manifesting ability granted by psionic classes is marked as neither (Ps) nor (Sp).Ahem.


Psi-Like Abilities (Ps)
The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures). Usually, a psionic creature’s psi-like ability works just like the power of that name. A few psi-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.Note that not only are class-based psionic powers considered a psi-like ability, but a singular psi-like ability.


I think rules corrections are helpful.In this case, it's not terribly, since you're unfortunately mistaken. And this isn't the first time you've done so with this exact issue.


Also, the embedded stuff doesn't work because the extradimensional space is not part of your body. It's another plane of existence.Probably not, though it'd be a neat corner-case for a niche character.

[Troacctid]

How does it know that most games treat magic and psionics as identical as the Magic Mantle does? I don't think it can, since the writers aren't psychic, unlike the characters defined by the psionics ruleset.
It's the default rule.


Ahem.

Note that not only are class-based psionic powers considered a psi-like ability, but a singular psi-like ability.
"These are spell-like abilities that a creature generates from the power of its mind alone -- no other outside magical force or ritual is needed." From the glossary. Note the plural.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's the default rule.Actually, the default rule is "similar but different," whereas the Magic Mantle is "identical."


"These are spell-like abilities that a creature generates from the power of its mind alone -- no other outside magical force or ritual is needed." From the glossary. Note the plural.Yes, and psi-like abilities are spell-like abilities under the Mantle. Just because you can have multiple types of psi/spell-like abilities doesn't negate the fact that the "psionics" entry is just one psi-like. For instance, a dromite psion has both "psionics (Ps)" and "psi-like abilities (Ps)" on his character sheet. Two different sets. Doesn't make "psionics" manifested via, say, psion, not abide by "the manifestation of powers by a psionic character is a psi-like ability."

Alternately, check out Pandorym's mind shard entry, from Elder Evils. Its class-like manifesting is listed entirely separately from its per-day psi-likes.

[daremetoidareyo]

Planar bard level 6, you can reroute other people's stuff going through portals into your body. It's a good way to steal from a hoard gullet, a familiar pocket, a shadow well, a rope trick, etc.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Planar bard level 6, you can reroute other people's stuff going through portals into your body. It's a good way to steal from a hoard gullet, a familiar pocket, a shadow well, a rope trick, etc.That only works if you've personally entered your own internal extradimensional pocket, which would tie you in knots that it would take M.C. Escher to unravel.

Or possibly The Family (https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/taylor-varga-worm-luna-varga.32119/).

[daremetoidareyo]

That only works if you've personally entered your own internal extradimensional pocket, which would tie you in knots that it would take M.C. Escher to unravel.

Or possibly The Family (https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/taylor-varga-worm-luna-varga.32119/).

It can't be too hard to figure out how the store yourself in yourself

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It can't be too hard to figure out how the store yourself in yourselfWell, if you take the phrase "go **** yourself" literally...

[daremetoidareyo]

Well, if you take the phrase "go **** yourself" literally...

Transdimensional spell mage hand and augmented compression might be able to do it if you start as a small race.

[Troacctid]

Actually, the default rule is "similar but different," whereas the Magic Mantle is "identical."
And it goes on to explain the implications of what "identical" means—namely, that powers such as dispel psionics work for both magic and psionics. Which is the default rule.


Yes, and psi-like abilities are spell-like abilities under the Mantle. Just because you can have multiple types of psi/spell-like abilities doesn't negate the fact that the "psionics" entry is just one psi-like. For instance, a dromite psion has both "psionics (Ps)" and "psi-like abilities (Ps)" on his character sheet. Two different sets. Doesn't make "psionics" manifested via, say, psion, not abide by "the manifestation of powers by a psionic character is a psi-like ability."

Alternately, check out Pandorym's mind shard entry, from Elder Evils. Its class-like manifesting is listed entirely separately from its per-day psi-likes.
So when you activate a psionic power, do you first have to spend a standard action manifesting "The ability to manifest powers" as a psi-like ability? Or is it an ongoing ability? How long does it last? Do you lose the ability to manifest powers if you're hit with dispel psionics? Is that the benefit of making it a supernatural ability? That it can't be dispelled anymore?


Transdimensional spell mage hand and augmented compression might be able to do it if you start as a small race.
Mage hand only works on objects, though.

[daremetoidareyo]

Mage hand only works on objects, though.

Gonna have to get yourself a glass box to store yourself in.

[shaikujin]

It's a relatively cheap (price of 1 feat) bag of holding that scales and cannot be stolen.

Unfortunately, not much room to optimize I can think of.

Having an army of Dvati share the dimensional space with their twins, would allow instant teleport/transfer of items/creatures across infinite distances and planes. As long as 1 twin successfully get past any planar locks/defences, you can send/receive anything through. Just have 1 of each twin remain in your stronghold, dispatch the other twin across the world/multiverse. The twins in the stronghold will act like an exchange/transit area to receive an item from 1 plane and pass it on to another Dvati who has a corresponding twin at the desired destination.

Another possible use would be a place to hide psionic tattoos that you don't need. On the topic of tattoos, it might be possibly to inscribe other magic tattoos/dragonmarks in the dimension space to benefit both Dvati and also at the same time hide the tattoos from prying eyes.

1 step further would be to PAO 1 Dvati into Black Pudding and split them into a million twins, each connected with the same instance of the twin power to the other 999,999 twins. They can all communicate with each other across planes. Doing it this way will also remove the need to have a stronghold serve as a nexus.

Are there any items that specifically say they will still give a benefit even when they are stored in a bag of holding?

[mabriss lethe]

Hmm It would be a fun way to store Shapesand or other similar materials.

[daremetoidareyo]

It's great for a game of dvati keep away. You could charge quite a bit for instantaneous transportation of goods. Dvati A is talking to royalty and needs a 500gp gem bribe. Dvati B is far away, stealing gems, stashing it inside themselves. Dvati A expands focus and pulls it out, miles away.

[Segev]

Using a play strategy with a dvati where one twin stays at home and uses healing magical items or spells on himself to keep his adventuring half active, this additional effect would allow the dvati to do shopping for the party while the party is out adventuring, too. As long as no bags of holding or heward's handy haversacks are being purchased or sold.

Non-dvati strategies... it's magnificent for smuggling. Only you can access it, so you can store things that can't be found no matter how hard the guards, inspectors, or captors search you. Also good for preventing yourself from being pickpocketed. If the party trusts you, you can store all the valuables and the like that would normally be vulnerable and the party will never have to worry about them being stolen or even found. Want to carry weapons into the "no weapons" party that surely won't be surprise attacked by villains while the party is disarmed? Nobody will know you have them. Want to keep the magical macguffin that everyone is after from being stolen while you transport it to the plot point of doom? Now it's perfectly safe! Only the Nomad can get at it.

Even the dreaded "party is captured; all gear taken" scenario is rendered moot when the Nomad pulls out the party's emergency backup gear.


It's also worth noting that the miniature chest that is the calling piece for Leomund's secret chest is not, itself, an extradimensional space. So you can store that in your personal pocket dimension, and not have to keep track of it.


Coupled with sleight of hand, you can make it look like you're storing stuff in hiding places, too.


You might be able to store inherently dangerous things in there where they can't hurt you.


Depending on the GM's permissiveness, if you can fit objects in there, you might be able to store them without having to make sure they're not bolted down. A classic use of time skip (or whatever the psi power is called) is to shove, say, a door 5 rounds into the future, letting you walk by without having to pick the lock or break it down or even open it and risk squeaking hinges giving you away. If you can fit the door in your pocket (probably not before level 20, so meh), you can do similarly for free, taking it right off the hinges.

Maybe useful for disarming some traps, too, if you can store away key components. Or the whole thing.


It doesn't say you count the weight of things in this against your carrying capacity, either, so you can store heavy things and then drop them on people.


Figure out whether storage containers and their contents count as one item, too. Makes a difference in how fast you can pull things out, since it's an expenditure of psi focus each time. I don't mean extradimentional ones. I mean, if you have a bag of gold pieces or a backpack full of stuff, do you have to put each gp or each item in the bag in separately, and remove them separately, or can you stuff the whole back/backpack in at once?

If the latter, can you pull individual things back out at will, or MUST you pull the whole thing out? Makes sorting easier, though you "pay" more in time since you need individual uses of your psi focus for individual items.

Your storage space already replicates one of the nice features of the handy haversack: you pick what you want to come out, with no fumbling or searching.


Faux "magical girl" transformations are feasible: vanish clothes you're wearing into your space, and summon out fresh ones already on your body. (I don't see it say anywhere that you have to reach into it with your hands. With no range listed, I assume you have to touch the item, but you're touching your clothes.)


Store an open bottle of smoke in there. Sure, it'll make anything you stuff in there with it smoky, but you can also spend psi focus now to puff a volume of smoke out around yourself. You can do similar tricks with a decanter of endless water or a bottle of air, though to make the latter useful will likely require some sort of air-tight mouth-and-nose-piece or a bowl-like helmet to keep the air in when underwater.


If your DM rules that you can use psi-like abilities through your psicrystal (a stretch in a few ways), you can use your psicrystal to relay items with this. This would also let your psicrystal store itself in there, and then you could pull it out, teleporting it to you. Again, I think this one's a big stretch of several rules, though.


Fill the space with quintessence, and bring out globs big enough to cover things you want to suspend later. Saves you pp in the moment by spending them earlier. Also means that anything you put in there has no time pass for it until you take it out! Go ahead, store that hot meal; it'll be just as hot and fresh as when you put it in when you take it back out!


In line with smuggling, also good for shoplifting. If you can sleight of hand well enough to not be seen taking it, nobody who searches you will find it. Even if they DID see you take it, they can't prove you have it.


Poor man's prestidigitation: if your DM is permissive, define what you're putting into the space as "this stain" or "this water/blood/whatever" that's soaked into your clothes. Now they're clean and you have some...stuff...in your storage space. May be useful pranking material - put the stain on that pompous noble's shirt right above his gut, or on his pants right in the groin or buttocks area, with a suitable sleight-of-hand check.


Other than that, anything that would let you do it at range, or keep more psi foci, or do it faster is helpful.