How Harsh is too Harsh

[Ivor_The_Mad]

My players recently fought Thane Kayalithica and should have died. Ok, first some background. We have a party of 4 8th level characters.
Tabaxi drunken master, their player has been playing 1 year
goliath conquest paladin, also been playing 1 year
Goblin Giant soul sorcerer played by brazenburn (obviously a veteran)
and a human rogue who has been playing a few months

So as I said they had just fought Kayalithica and it was an accident. They had tried to talk a giant who had caught them into letting them go but the only smart one couldn't speak giant and they ended up being taken to he and tricked into entering her room (an unforgivable crime) If they had fought her normally they would have had to face 2-5 buffed stone golems at the same time and her. She can also cast time stop. If I had played this out as written they would have died. I instead spared them and let them all live. I'm not sure at what point I should be unforgiving and kill characters. Should I have let some of them die and some escape or should I let a TPK happen? What do you guys think?

[JackPhoenix]

Tricked how?

[Clone]

My players recently fought Thane Kayalithica and should have died. Ok, first some background. We have a party of 4 8th level characters.
Tabaxi drunken master, their player has been playing 1 year
goliath conquest paladin, also been playing 1 year
Goblin Giant soul sorcerer played by brazenburn (obviously a veteran)
and a human rogue who has been playing a few months

So as I said they had just fought Kayalithica and it was an accident. They had tried to talk a giant who had caught them into letting them go but the only smart one couldn't speak giant and they ended up being taken to he and tricked into entering her room (an unforgivable crime) If they had fought her normally they would have had to face 2-5 buffed stone golems at the same time and her. She can also cast time stop. If I had played this out as written they would have died. I instead spared them and let them all live. I'm not sure at what point I should be unforgiving and kill characters. Should I have let some of them die and some escape or should I let a TPK happen? What do you guys think?

Well I guess for me it would boil down to what you as the DM conveyed to them information-wise. Did they know about the Thane being there? Were they there to kill her and initiate combat?
How much information had they for the entire base/ area?

If you believe they had enough information to have deduced it'd be a bad idea to be led to the Thane's room, all while leaving ALL the giants in the area alive, then you should have played the encounter out as it was written. Sometimes PCs make outrageously stupid choices or completely ignore signs of danger. I've been on both sides of the DM screen with them, and it never gets any better.

Now so I understand this: The party were caught by some stone giants and, through clever trickery and lies, bluffed their way out of capture and were led inside. They didn't realise it but the giant they spoke to actually led them to the Thane's quarters, knowing it would be bad for the party to enter. The party entered, the Thane was pissed but you let the PCs off the hook and now they are safe. Does all that line up?

My first question is did they try to figure out if their lie actually worked, or did they just go with the flow since the giant stopped trying to smash them?
Second is how did the giant trick them? Did they think the giant would lie or did they fail an insight check or something?
Third is how did you let them off the hook? Were they just beat up and captured, did you let them escape, or did you give them a bonus in the fight by nerfing the battle, letting them win?
Last is where are they now?

Many questions I know, I apologize, but its too hard to tell from what you said to determine if they were let off the hook or what.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

Tricked how?

The giant who brought them brought them to the door and said just to walk in.


1. Yes, they knew the thane would be there.
2. they planned to try to bargain with her.
3. they went in knowing absolutely nothing about Deadstone except that it was populated by stone giants.

Yah More specifically the character with 8 int decided to tell the giant to take them to their leader with no caution what so ever.

Now so I understand this: The party were caught by some stone giants and, through clever trickery and lies, bluffed their way out of capture and were led inside. They didn't realize it but the giant they spoke to actually led them to the Thane's quarters, knowing it would be bad for the party to enter. The party entered, the Thane was pissed but you let the PCs off the hook and now they are safe. Does all that lineup?
Yep, that seems pretty accurate except they knew they were going to the thanes quarters and one of the party was actually trying to convince the giant to let them leave.


My first question is did they try to figure out if their lie actually worked, or did they just go with the flow since the giant stopped trying to smash them?
Second is how did the giant trick them? Did they think the giant would lie or did they fail an insight check or something?
Third is how did you let them off the hook? Were they just beat up and captured, did you let them escape, or did you give them a bonus in the fight by nerfing the battle, letting them win?
Last is where are they now?

1. no and the only smart one couldn't speak giant.
2. The giant just leads them to the room and told them to walk in but didn't warn them. They made no insight checks or any attempt to see if the giant was lying
3. I let them challenge her 1v1 goliath v/ giant because the main problem was the golems and I did not have her cast time stop. so basically I made it easier for them to win.
4. they are outside Deadstone repairing the crashed airship with the help of a gnome.

[mephnick]

Other than I use Passive Insight as opposed to the players calling for Insight checks, this seems above board. That may have tipped them off a bit more.


I would have let them get slaughtered, but I have no regrets about TPKs as a player or DM. I think letting them off easy is probably what most people would do to keep the story moving forward.

[Unoriginal]

Unless the Thane has a good reason to spare them, kill them. You can however invent a good reason.

Maybe they're kept in a cell awaiting their execution (in a couple of hours), and the Stone Giants are attacked by the Giants of the adventure's next chapter. Or maybe the Thane needs something from them.

I'm strongly against letting the PCs off the hook because PC privilege. PCs can get into troubles, and sometime they'll get into fights where they'd die.

Pretty sure 8 INT PCs are as smart as your average Stone Giant, though. So not really a factor here.

[jdolch]

IMO its a question of Information. If the players don't have the information that what they are doing is dangerous and they also weren't negligent I would do my best to avoid TPKs. But if the Players ignore warnings and the informations they have (or if they criminally neglected to gather Information in the first place) I would say a TPK is on the table.

"Tricking the Players" is a very gray area. The Players tend to accept the Information given by the DM since he IS the only source of information. So if you want to have an NPC try to trick the Players and it is obvious that this could lead to a TPK then you at least have to give them some signs that this NPC might not be entirely truthful.

Example: There is a lair of Vampire Spawn that in a stand up fight would almost certainly kill your group.

Option 1: The Players follow some hints and discover what is actually in this cave/building/etc. and they don't go in there in the first place or they prepare more carefully and maybe set some traps, etc. -> No TPK

Option 2: The Players stumble into this situation unaware and without having neglected their due diligence in gathering information. In that case i would try to give them a way out, if at all possible. They take it -> No TPK .

But maybe they still fight even after knowing the odds, because "they don't run from a fight". That's their choice. -> TPK

Option 3: The Players stumble into the Situation unaware, but they are only unaware because they completely and criminally ignored warning signs that would have prompted them to gather more information and discover the danger they are in -> TPK

Option 4: The Players discovered the danger they are in but decide to brute force the situation any way -> TPK

Bottom Line: Give them the necessary information (or an obvious chance to gather said information) and let them make the decision. If they either criminally ignore information gathering or ignore the information that they did gather, then let the dice roll how they may and if it's a TPK, then that's the way this goes.

[Unoriginal]

Should be noted that the Giants who tricked the PCs into getting in the Thane's room should be executed as well.

Leading armed intruders to your leader's quarters and letting them go inside? That's what anyone with two bits of sense would call "attempted coup".

[username1]

How is the leader of the giants not speak giant? She wouldn’t be able to communicate with the others, so her rule would have to be complete force. In addition it sounds like your running SKT, and the giant lords would have to be able to communicate with each other.

[Clone]

The giant who brought them brought them to the door and said just to walk in.


1. Yes, they knew the thane would be there.
2. they planned to try to bargain with her.
3. they went in knowing absolutely nothing about Deadstone except that it was populated by stone giants.

Yah More specifically the character with 8 int decided to tell the giant to take them to their leader with no caution what so ever.

Yep, that seems pretty accurate except they knew they were going to the thanes quarters and one of the party was actually trying to convince the giant to let them leave.


1. no and the only smart one couldn't speak giant.
2. The giant just leads them to the room and told them to walk in but didn't warn them. They made no insight checks or any attempt to see if the giant was lying
3. I let them challenge her 1v1 goliath v/ giant because the main problem was the golems and I did not have her cast time stop. so basically I made it easier for them to win.
4. they are outside Deadstone repairing the crashed airship with the help of a gnome.

By the sounds of it you would have been fine to run it as suggested. If they didn't entertain the idea that they'd be lied to and just walked in no bother, then I'd have them suffer the consequences of those actions even if they didn't know it was dangerous to do so.
Did they fight 1v1 or did they cheat and all gang up on her? A single level 8 paladin doesn't seem like a good fight for a beefed up Stone Giant Thane with extra abilities.

Where are all the other stone giants now that their leader is dead? I'd have the leader be discovered dead and the entire facility be on high alert trying to find the party. Make them abandon the airship possibly.