How Much Wild Surge is Too Much?

[KOLE]

Very interested in everybody's opinion on this-

Pretty common consensus around here (Shared by myself) that there's only three subclasses that people really seem to dislike or are considered very subpar for various reasons- Beastmaster, 4E Monk, and the Wild Sorcerer.

I'm not going to delve into the first two- another topic, another day- but as someone who's personally interested in playing a Wild Sorc, and who has a player who's also interested in trying it next campaign, I've done some digging around for solutions.

Wild Sorc is interesting because it's pretty much the only subclass that relies on DM intervention- though I suppose some Cleric features and certain spells involve that as well. So there's one easy fix that I think sorts of some big issues up front with the class:

As a DM, I personally believe you should have a wild sorc roll for a surge EVERY TIME they cast a spell of 1st level or higher. That should be your bare minimum. If you're doing that, you've already gone a long way to fixing the problem with the class in my opinion. I'm interested in what other people have to say about this, but I don't see much dispute on this as an option.

However, I'm also considering some methods of causing Wild Surge to happen more often. I've seen people with a few different methods, some really swing the frequency around.

Option 1: Roll a smaller dice than a d20. On a 1, the surge happens as normal. If I went this way I'd probably say a d10 or a d12. Anything lower than that just seems like too much.

Option 2: Roll a d20 and subtract the spell level from the roll. If the result is 1 or lower, a surge happens. This doesn't really solve the problem of surges not happening very often at low levels, and to me might cause surges a little TOO frequently. I do however like the thematic idea of more powerful spells carrying a higher chance for something to go wrong; it makes a certain sense to me.

Option 3: Don't change frequency at all: but roll for surges on every cantrip cast as well. Not really a fan of this, and it also creates weird situations that might stifle player creativity. My players like messing around with Prestidigitation, for example. It would suck if chilling your drink at the king's feast triggered a fireball centered on yourself. If the addendum "only roll surges for cantrips after you've rolled for initiative" were added, maybe. But this also might be too frequent. I want wild surges to retain their novelty, and have that anticipation every time you roll. Not for it to be handed out like candy and lose its luster.

Option 4: After a long rest, DM rolls 2d4. The result is now the Wild Magic trigger range, so if the DM rolled 2, the surge can trigger on a 1 or a 2 when rolling the d20. Interesting and true to the random nature, but a little too work intensive and potentially too frequent. Average range will be between 1 and 5. That's a lot of surges!

Option 5: Normal rules until Tides of Chaos is used. After Tides of Chaos is spent, the wild surge range increases by 1 every time the sorcerer casts a spell until a surge is triggered. After the surge, Tides of Chaos is regained and the counter resets. It would also reset after a long rest, obviously. I really, really like this option. It encourages use of wild sorc features, creates synergy within the features themselves, adds a new layer of risk/reward, and increases potential surges a healthy amount without being too bonkers.

I wanted to know what you all thought- and what your experience has been homebrewing wild surge solutions. Any other ideas you've come up with or used in your own campaign? I'm all ears.

[Temperjoke]

So, I was in a group that had a person who wanted a lot of chaos and enjoyed the randomness, and kept doing everything she could to trigger a wild magic surge. Unfortunately for her, it never seemed to happen with the actual rules. So the DM decided to let her make wild magic rolls when she cast a spell. It got really disruptive sometimes, which was fun in a way, but it was also hard to get stuff accomplished to a certain extent.

EDIT: I should also note that this made the player very happy, and we bore with it for the amusement factor and cause it made her happy.

[CantigThimble]

The way it was run in the last 2 games it came up in was that whenever Tides of Chaos were on cooldown it was guaranteed. One player would roll random perform chacks as he was casting spells just so he could use Tides to give himself advantage and guarantee a surge. The other time I was the sorcerer and I used tides a bit more judiciously than that, but I still really enjoyed being able to get a very large number of surges and tides of chaos on demand.

If you prefer not to totally guarantee it you could also bump it to a 50% chance while tides is on cooldown.

[ToastyTobasco]

I have also been looking for alternatives to DM dependence for WM sorc. Option 5 there seems pretty fantastic. Option 1 is a decent compromise as well. There's a large sorc thread from a few months back that had some good ones in it as well. I'll try to dig it out

[mangosta71]

I played a Wild Magic Sorcerer in a campaign last year, and the book rules were fine. We had enough wild surges to keep my blood pressure up and the rest of the group entertained. You should be announcing it when you use Tides of Chaos. If your DM is the forgetful type, throw in a reminder that the DM can have you roll a surge any time you cast another spell to refresh the ability. My DM almost always had me roll the next round. He gave no indication that it required any sort of bookkeeping or other onerous effort to keep track of it.

[ad_hoc]

No house rules are needed.

Tides of Chaos is very strong. It is up to the Wild Sorcerer to ensure that it gets used often. They get more advantage on rolls and they get more surges.

[Mr.Spastic]

I think it depends on the group. If you guys all sit down and agree that you want that table to be rolled as much as possible then do that. If you want it to be barely rolled on at all then you can do that too.

[Luccan]

One I plan on implementing when I get the chance is allowing the player to choose to roll a d20 whenever they cast a spell of first level or higher. They add their Charisma bonus, as well as their proficiency bonus to the result. If it's greater than or equal to 20, roll on the wild magic table. As DM, I maintain the power to call for a wild magic roll even if the player hasn't decided to do so.

The basic idea is that now the player can attempt to recharge their surges, while the DM can still choose to activate the wild magic when they feel it's appropriate. Now the player doesn't rely on DM fiat to use Wild Sorcerer subclass abilities and the sorcerer becomes more in tune with their own magic as they level. By level 20 a wild magic sorcerer would be able to activate their wild magic surge a little over half the time, which seems fair.

[ad_hoc]

By level 20 a wild magic sorcerer would be able to activate their wild magic surge a little over half the time, which seems fair.

...or just every time from level 1 that it won't be disruptive to the flow of the game (like if they cast a spell in a non-combat situation, sitting through a surge is dumb).

[Greywander]

I do however like the thematic idea of more powerful spells carrying a higher chance for something to go wrong; it makes a certain sense to me.
I've actually been using a heavily homebrewed version of wild magic in a game, although it pretty heavily changes the rules (no spell slots/infinite spellcasting, spells can fail, wild magic surges come in three levels of severity ranging from "temporary inconvenience" to "roll a new character", and the player choose how risky to be). I can probably adapt the basic mechanic for use with the vanilla spellcasting system and only use it to determine when a wild magic surge occurs.

Basically, roll two dice, and if you roll doubles then a wild magic surge occurs. The size of the dice depend on the spell level:
d12 = 1st-2nd level (tier 1 spells)
d10 = 3rd-5th level (tier 2 spells)
d8 = 6th-8th level (tier 3 spells)
d6 = 9th level (tier 4 spells)

Although, I suppose "rolling doubles" in this case is numerically the same as saying "roll one die, and on a 1...". So I guess this is basically option 1 where the size of the die depends on the spell level.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Whatever rules you decide on, I'd keep one thing in mind:

"Too much" is subjective in my experience. If Wild Surge is happening often enough to disrupt your game, or if the player is interested in the class because they're prone to disrupting the game (yes, this is a thing), you'll need to dial it back.

[Dark Schneider]

The rules mention to roll Wild Surge if rolling an "1" when casting a Sorcerer spell. Enough IMO.

[Porcupinata]

My group often have wild sorcerers. We don't house-rule anything, but we do give surges as often as the rules say we can:

Whenever the sorcerer casts a spell of level one or higher we have the standard 1-in-20 chance of a surge.
If the sorcerer uses Tides of Chaos, the DM will give them a surge the next time they cast a spell regardless of the die roll.
If the sorcerer uses Tides of Chaos to aim an attack spell, they can be given the surge immediately when they have finished casting/resolving that spell, rather than waiting for the next one.
Sorcerers are encouraged to learn/use spells that require attack rolls, so that they can keep using Tides of Chaos and keep getting wild magic surges.

[KorvinStarmast]

We don't house-rule anything, but we do give surges as often as the rules say we can:

Whenever the sorcerer casts a spell of level one or higher we have the standard 1-in-20 chance of a surge.
If the sorcerer uses Tides of Chaos, the DM will give them a surge the next time they cast a spell regardless of the die roll.
If the sorcerer uses Tides of Chaos to aim an attack spell, they can be given the surge immediately when they have finished casting/resolving that spell, rather than waiting for the next one.
Sorcerers are encouraged to learn/use spells that require attack rolls, so that they can keep using Tides of Chaos and keep getting wild magic surges. Sounds like fun.

[Tanarii]

My group often have wild sorcerers. We don't house-rule anything, but we do give surges as often as the rules say we can:
Yup. That's the way to let the Wild Sorc get their subclass power. Wild Surges are something and Wild Sorc worth his salt wants to trigger as often as they can. Sure, there are some negative results, but there are more by far that are beneficial. And each one refreshes Tides of Chaos. It's win-win.

[KOLE]

My group often have wild sorcerers. We don't house-rule anything, but we do give surges as often as the rules say we can:


Huh.

I feel really silly.

In all my diving of homebrew rules last night... I had misread tides of chaos.

I thought it said (roughly): “At any point after tides of chaos is expended, whenyou cast a spell, your DM can call for you to roll for a wild surge” meaning to roll on a d20 and surge on a 1 as normal. I did not realize it actually said your DM can rule to automatically trigger a surge.

That changes things... A lot! I still kind of like option 5 for removing DM fiat entirely, but having a surge every time you cast a spell after Tides of Chaos is a very interesting solution.

[Tanarii]

Huh.

I feel really silly.

In all my diving of homebrew rules last night... I had misread tides of chaos.
This thread makes a lot more sense now. :smallamused:

[mangosta71]

Yeah, I was sitting here thinking that I'd seen plenty of surges in a game that only went to level 4; how many more do you need? Especially since, as mentioned, some of the results are really bad, so you don't want to be triggering surges too much until you're high enough level to get advantage on the roll. After all, a self-centered Fireball will TPK a low-level party if you're in close quarters.

[Tanarii]

Especially since, as mentioned, some of the results are really bad, so you don't want to be triggering surges too much until you're high enough level to get advantage on the roll.
If you're playing a Wild Mage and you aren't asking the DM to trigger wild surges as often as possible to refresh Tides of Chaos, your'e Doing It Wrong (TM)

[Dalebert]

Too much Wild Surge? That's like saying "too much pizza" or "too much beer" or "too much sex". THere's no such thing!

Srsly tho... As a general rule I just wish they'd left out the part about leaving it up to the DM after Tides of Chaos. ToC should always trigger a surge on your next spell. That's both the flavor and self-balancing. This is particularly problematic in A.L. when the DM changes from game to game and you have some DMs who just don't get it--that surges are your primary feature from your archetype, and maybe they don't math well. The 1 in 20 roll is almost never going to happen and a wild mage who hardly ever surges is like an archetype-less sorc. Surges are the whole point. People need to stop being afraid of surges.

That said, I get it if a DM wants to occasionally so "no" to a surge if it's going to completely derail the attention back the sorc at a moment when the attention should be elsewhere like on another character in the middle of a key point in their story arc. In such a case tho, I'd let the player pick a time later to surge when they otherwise wouldn't have. It gets banked for later.

In actual game play, I find that even if you surge every time you ToC, surges don't happen a lot. And that's sad and wrong. So surge always after ToC.

[Ganryu]

I think it's fine as is.

Personally, I LOOOOVE this subclass. I had a character with this subclass, and so much chaos happened.

For instance, I was evil, a party member was trying to get rid of me. While the rest of the party went to the Feywilds, I was instructed to attack the big bad's castle by themselves. Certain death.

I ended up as a blue sheep in the middle of the party in the feywilds, firing magic missiles at everything in the area around the party, and scared of everything, and the party had NO IDEA what was happening. I'd cast so many spells assaulting the big bad's castle that I rolled a magic 01 on the wild magic table.

As the campaign went on, it just got weirder and weirder. My skin was permanently blue. My height kept changing. All sorts of other permanent effects stayed with me. The GM ruled eventually I was no longer humanoid, I was an abberation due to the amount of things happening from the table.

It was fun and the effects stayed. For a long campaign, I think Wild Magic table triggers often enough. Then again, I was kinda a trigger happy blaster mage, so I used my spell slots up in a matter of minutes every single combat. (I maaay have also left a blast shadow of civilians from time to time.)

It fit my character really well.

Honestly I love this subclass, and I'm a little lost why its so hated. Honestly, compared to it, Dragonic line just boring. This subclass is chaos personified.

[CantigThimble]

Too much Wild Surge? That's like saying "too much pizza" or "too much beer" or "too much sex". THere's no such thing!

Srsly tho... As a general rule I just wish they'd left out the part about leaving it up to the DM after Tides of Chaos. ToC should always trigger a surge on your next spell. That's both the flavor and self-balancing. This is particularly problematic in A.L. when the DM changes from game to game and you have some DMs who just don't get it--that surges are your primary feature from your archetype, and maybe they don't math well. The 1 in 20 roll is almost never going to happen and a wild mage who hardly ever surges is like an archetype-less sorc. Surges are the whole point. People need to stop being afraid of surges.

That said, I get it if a DM wants to occasionally so "no" to a surge if it's going to completely derail the attention back the sorc at a moment when the attention should be elsewhere like on another character in the middle of a key point in their story arc. In such a case tho, I'd let the player pick a time later to surge when they otherwise wouldn't have. It gets banked for later.

In actual game play, I find that even if you surge every time you ToC, surges don't happen a lot. And that's sad and wrong. So surge always after ToC.

I do think it is good that ToC has the DM chooses option just because not every group of players and DM are going to be 'beer and pretzels' enough to enjoy constant surges. It makes it easy for DMs to prevent it from being disruptive if they're not comfortable outright banning a class or are in organized play and can't while still allowing the tables who are cool with it to have it go off constantly.

[Dalebert]

...to enjoy constant surges. ...to have it go off constantly.

The word constant is hyperbole for sure. I think the most wild surge intensive game I've had with my wild mage sorcerer was about 5 in a 4 hour game and he's now lvl 17. There are too many limiting factors.

* There are only so many actions in the game and opportunities to cast spellls.
* Sorcerers are trying to make their slots last the whole game and particularly want some left over for a big boss fight.
* Sorcerers are trying to save Tides for when they might need it, like for that Intellect Devourer save, or that Beholder save, or that Hold Person save, or that attack that you really, really need to hit or hope to crit.

Of course you don't want to over-save your ToC as you can get it back with surging but often times you can't get it back for a while. You typically don't want to blow a spell slot when you don't really need those spell benefits.

Summary: Wild Surges regulate themselves for the most part.

[Ganryu]

Wait, people have careful sorcerer's who wait to use their best stuff? Isn't that an oxymoron? Sure, your magic doesn't last long, but it's in your blood! What self-respecting sorcerer doesn't fireball the nearest bee's nest. Now I'm confused. I honestly think wild magic sorcerer's are great on reckless players more than anything.

[CantigThimble]

The word constant is hyperbole for sure. I think the most wild surge intensive game I've had with my wild mage sorcerer was about 5 in a 4 hour game and he's now lvl 17. There are too many limiting factors.

* There are only so many actions in the game and opportunities to cast spellls.
* Sorcerers are trying to make their slots last the whole game and particularly want some left over for a big boss fight.
* Sorcerers are trying to save Tides for when they might need it, like for that Intellect Devourer save, or that Beholder save, or that Hold Person save, or that attack that you really, really need to hit or hope to crit.

Of course you don't want to over-save your ToC as you can get it back with surging but often times you can't get it back for a while. You typically don't want to blow a spell slot when you don't really need those spell benefits.

Summary: Wild Surges regulate themselves for the most part.

Both times I saw wild magic sorcs in game very nearly every spell was a surge. It wasn't that hard to find an excuse to use tides shortly before they used nearly every spell so it was almost always up. Granted, those were both fairly low level but I don't see that going DOWN as the party went up in level.

Aside: One of those two characters was a Fighter 1/Sorcerer X with the lucky feat. It's a wonderful feeling, being able to drag statistics into a back alley and steal its lunch money. Sadly it was only a one shot but he got like 6-7 rerolls in one adventuring day.

[Tanarii]

The word constant is hyperbole for sure. I think the most wild surge intensive game I've had with my wild mage sorcerer was about 5 in a 4 hour game and he's now lvl 17.


Both times I saw wild magic sorcs in game very nearly every spell was a surge. It wasn't that hard to find an excuse to use tides shortly before they used nearly every spell so it was almost always up. Granted, those were both fairly low level but I don't see that going DOWN as the party went up in level.I run "every slot after a Tides causes a surge" as a DM. A T2 Wild Sorc has 7-15 slots. Off the top of my head, they probably get around 10 surges per session, depending on level. OTOH I may have perception bias because it happens so often, I may see it as happening more often than it is. But still, most Wild Sorcs use their Tides as soon as it's reasonable. They typically only lose out if they're casting back to back slot spells over 2 given rounds, and the second one is not an attack roll spell.

OTOH I run a dungeon & wilderness adventure site heavy game. So that's fine. Someone trying to run one in a masters of stealth and intrigue campaign, with heavy Subtle Spell casting, might find it a pain in the ass. :smallamused:

[sophontteks]

The rules mention to roll Wild Surge if rolling an "1" when casting a Sorcerer spell. Enough IMO.
The only time a sorcerer ever rolls on the wild surge table is when the DM says so, but once they roll I agree its fine with the 1/20 chance.


I do think it is good that ToC has the DM chooses option just because not every group of players and DM are going to be 'beer and pretzels' enough to enjoy constant surges. It makes it easy for DMs to prevent it from being disruptive if they're not comfortable outright banning a class or are in organized play and can't while still allowing the tables who are cool with it to have it go off constantly.

Either the players are going to find it disruptive, or the sorcerer isn't going to use any of his archtype's abilities. These are bad choices. Anyone looking to play a wild sorcerer should establish ground rules first to avoid drama. If the party doesnt like wild surges its better to play something else instead of effectivly not having an archtype at all.

From what I've seen, proccing wild surge after every spell works fine. Wild sorcerers have tons of advantage, which actually makes them a competitive archtype, though the risk of causing a tpk if unlucky still weighs pretty heavy.

[Bloodcloud]

Hasn't come up for me thus far, but I basically would have (and there's some homebrewing here):
-Roll after casting any spell
-A sure surge roll on every metamagic use, except Subtele and careful, where you do not roll.
-A surge if you fail a concentration save

Gives the player some control on the surging, at least.