Spell selection for damage optimization

[Splarticus]

I made a spreadsheet to find the best damage spells for a given spell level against a given monster, taking into account overpowering the spell, monster ACs and saves and resistances.

Here's the sheet: [removed, because I don't have enough posts to include a link]

Blue cells on the Attacker sheet can be changed for different levels, spell levels, or monsters (from the Monster Manual)

Findings:

For straight damage, Dex saves with Fireball are pretty much best choice. It's a big jump over other spells. Back up with Lightning Bolt for Fire Resistant opponents or areas that don't fit a Fireball, and you're set.

Targeting Con saves vs. Dex saves is not worth it. Fireball/Lightning Bolt (F/LB) do enough damage that a Con save spell like Shatter is almost never going to do more damage, even when overpowered to the same spell level. Aside from tiny or small opponents (yeah, I really need a fireball to deal with this pixie), virtually the only worthy opponents that have a significantly lower Con than Dex save are vampires, and even for them, Fireball will do more damage than an overpowered Thunderwave.

Targeting Wis saves with damage spells is difficult, since straight up damage spells targeting Wis are rare. One exception is Phantasmal Killer, but damage is significantly less than F/LB for even for Assassins, whose Wis save is 6 points less than their Dex saves.

Targeting AC, on the other hand, is worth it. Not because monsters have low AC compared to Dex saves, but rather for Magic Resistant monsters like Devils, Slaads, or Golems. Over 10% of the monsters in the Monster Manual have Magic Resistance. Another reason to target AC is to leverage to hit bonuses, like Faerie Fire, Bless, etc.

Magic Missile is solid and scales well. Great for dealing with magic or damage resistant monsters or high AC monsters. A key spell.

Inflict Wounds is a better spell than I realized. Against single targets, it's comparable damage to F/LB.

Animate Objects is awesome. Outstrips other spells by 50% more damage, and it's concentration, so it's a gift that keeps on giving.

So the best straight damage spells are:

Level 1: Magic Missile, Thunderwave or Burning Hands, if you prefer Stealth
L 2: Scorching Ray. Shatter if you still need a AoE.
L 3. Fireball. Lightning Bolt.
L 4. Overpower your Fireball and Lightning Bolt
L 5. Animate Objects.
L 6+: Overpower your Animate Objects or F/LB if you need an AoE.
L 7: Disintegrate, if you need even more damage while concentrating on Animate Objects
L 8+: Animate Objects, and then your next favorite damage spell while concentrating

Basically, with those seven spells, (Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, a low level AoE, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Animate Objects, and Disintegrate) you're set for damaging spells. Use other prepared spells for crowd control or utility.

[LudicSavant]

Don't forget that a lot of the more damaging uses of spells in the game come from support effects, force multipliers, and combos.

[Greywander]

Fireball doesn't actually scale that well, so I'm assuming the reason it's better upcast to 4th/5th/6th level than a native 4th/5th/6th level spell is because the base Fireball damage is just that strong.

I'm curious to poke around your spreadsheet once you've got enough posts to link it.

One thing I was wondering about lately was Thunderclap vs. Sword Burst vs. Word of Radiance. I feel like Sword Burst is probably the best of the three just because it's a DEX save, but I also feel like low level mooks (the type of enemy you'd mostly likely be trying to clear out with a cantrip rather than a Fireball) are more likely to have a higher DEX than CON.


Targeting AC, on the other hand, is worth it. Not because monsters have low AC compared to Dex saves, but rather for Magic Resistant monsters like Devils, Slaads, or Golems. Over 10% of the monsters in the Monster Manual have Magic Resistance.
And this is why you still carry a crossbow and dagger even if you're a full caster. Especially if you rely on save cantrips instead of attack cantrips for damage. Although, again, it would be interesting to see the math and if shooting with a crossbow would actually out-damage a cantrip against an enemy with Magic Resistance. I know it wouldn't out-damage a Fireball.


Basically, with those six spells, (Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, a low level AoE, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, and Animate Objects) you're set for damaging spells. Use other prepared spells for crowd control or utility.
I'll keep this in mind if I ever run a sorcerer, but for now I like having all the spells too much.

[Unoriginal]

Did you take into account the various elemental resistances and immunities?

[LudicSavant]

Fireball doesn't actually scale that well, so I'm assuming the reason it's better upcast to 4th/5th/6th level than a native 4th/5th/6th level spell is because the base Fireball damage is just that strong.

There are spells that outdamage an upcast Fireball at 4th, so something's up with this.


And this is why you still carry a crossbow and dagger even if you're a full caster. Especially if you rely on save cantrips instead of attack cantrips for damage. Although, again, it would be interesting to see the math and if shooting with a crossbow would actually out-damage a cantrip against an enemy with Magic Resistance. I know it wouldn't out-damage a Fireball. Magic Resistance would only matter against cantrips that rely on saving throws. Magic Resistance does nothing to Firebolt, for example.

[Greywander]

Magic Resistance would only matter against cantrips that rely on saving throws. Magic Resistance does nothing to Firebolt, for example.
The issue is the cantrip economy. If you can have (a) an attack cantrip, or (b) a weapon and a save cantrip, you might be a bit more effective with (a), but you're more versatile with (b). I generally tend to value utility cantrips higher than damage cantrips anyway, so if I can get by with one damage cantrip instead of two (an attack and a save), so much the better. Or, at least, if I know which one to get first, and which can wait until I'm higher level.

[LudicSavant]

The issue is the cantrip economy. If you can have (a) an attack cantrip, or (b) a weapon and a save cantrip, you might be a bit more effective with (a), but you're more versatile with (b). I generally tend to value utility cantrips higher than damage cantrips anyway, so if I can get by with one damage cantrip instead of two (an attack and a save), so much the better. Or, at least, if I know which one to get first, and which can wait until I'm higher level.

Ah. Well, in practice that depends on a ton of factors. What class are you? Which cantrip? What's the difference between Dexterity and your casting stat? Etc.

Anyways, you can just punch those variables into my DPR calculator and it'll tell you when one becomes better than the other.

[Foxhound438]

I mean, if we're considering animate objects to be just a "damage spell" without considering the fact that you have to worry about being effectively counterspelled by opposition AOE, why not talk about conjure animals for a pile of warhorses? with a 5th level slot you can get 8 (conveniently the same number as you would with tiny animate objects), and they can all do their trampling charges to deal double to quadruple the damage after the target fails their strength save the one out of 8 times they'll be needing to every round. And accounting for the errata, the to-hit bonus is only 2 worse than the objects'. Sure, they have lower AC and one (count them it's 1) less hit point and have to risk opportunity attacks from the creature, but after the first one runs by a given creature the rest are free to roam for the round. The only real restriction here is that the horses take up more space, but even that's manageable in some of the printed dungeons where the "boss fight" takes place.

[ATHATH]

I mean, if we're considering animate objects to be just a "damage spell" without considering the fact that you have to worry about being effectively counterspelled by opposition AOE, why not talk about conjure animals for a pile of warhorses? with a 5th level slot you can get 8 (conveniently the same number as you would with tiny animate objects), and they can all do their trampling charges to deal double to quadruple the damage after the target fails their strength save the one out of 8 times they'll be needing to every round. And accounting for the errata, the to-hit bonus is only 2 worse than the objects'. Sure, they have lower AC and one (count them it's 1) less hit point and have to risk opportunity attacks from the creature, but after the first one runs by a given creature the rest are free to roam for the round. The only real restriction here is that the horses take up more space, but even that's manageable in some of the printed dungeons where the "boss fight" takes place.
Personally, I prefer giant owls over warhorses- they have Flyby (and a fly speed), deal 2d6+1 damage on a hit, and each have the same max HP total as a warhorse (19 HP), but are only CR 1/4, meaning you can get twice as many giant owls as you can warhorses from Conjure Animals. The giant owls are quite inaccurate with their attacks, though, with only a +3 to hit- then again, a pair of giant owls don't require 20 ft. of open terrain and a failed STR save to make two attacks per turn (unlike a single warhorse), so I dunno how the math works out

[Splarticus]

LudicSavant,

Not really sure about the combos for more damage. I think we have a pretty optimal team, and honestly, most of the spell damage I see going out is straight-up spell damage. We use some buff spells like Bless and Haste, and debuffs like Faerie Fire or Web. We're still exploring the base classes in the PHB, with a few feat additions. Groups using the expansion books and multi-class optimizing, may have a different experience.


There are spells that outdamage an upcast Fireball at 4th, so something's up with this.

Looking at the effective damage (Average spell damage * Chance to hit [Plus miss stuff]), at least in the PHB, they don't. Take Blight. Looks like a good spell, with average spell damage of 8d8 = 36 hp vs. 4th level Fireball at 32 hp. The problem is that Blight is a Con save, which is on average 1 point easier save for monsters, and for monsters with CR over 3, that difference jumps to nearly 3, which erases the extra 3 HP damage from Blight.

Link for your DPR calculator?

[Splarticus]

Unoriginal,

Yes, I took into account the elemental resistances and Magic Resistance, too. Magic Missile, as well as having both Fireball and Lightning Bolt, became important for avoiding those. Demons are still a problem, with resistance to both Fire and Lightning. Use a Thunder-based AoE like Shatter or Thunderwave on them, although due to Magic Resistance, only worth it if you hit many of them with one spell. Magic Missile until you get Animate Objects is the most reliable.

[Separating responses into different posts to get my post count over ten. :smallcool:]

[Splarticus]

why not talk about conjure animals for a pile of warhorses?

Yeah, I love Conjure Animals, too. The long duration makes it a great spell. If I get to choose, I like Constrictor Snakes. Grapple and Restrain on hit, which both increases the damage of other snakes hitting the same target, and reduces the targets ability to fight back with disadvantage on their attacks. Lots of lost rounds as they try to break free of the grapple, as well.

As you mention, Conjure Animals is far more circumstantial. According to Sage Advice, the DM decides what creatures are summoned, not the player, so you can't be sure to get your pick, and the requirement for eight large creatures is often difficult.

[beargryllz]

Fireball, polymorph, and animate objects come to mind

[Splarticus]

I now have enough posts to include the URL, so here you go!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lMK2O6x9ZSLF_SBgn9PkYyBFJSPkMnoy2k9HN1D_CII/edit?usp=sharing

[Aaron Underhand]

I've done some fairly extensive analysis myself (for a Bard, so pretty free spell selection).

You might consider:

Cone of Cold - Con save but out damages Fireball if saves are equal, and no worries about cover
Destructive Wave - Matches Fireball at 5th, but is party friendly!
Insect plague - out damages if lasts for two rounds... can last for 10 minutes!
Chain Lightning - out damages a fireball that only catches 4 targets...if there are enough targets it wins up to level 9

Also note that from 11th level onward Eldritch Blast with Hex (from Mage initiate rather than precious Magical Secrets) will out perform Magic Missile, and repeats - If you have agonising blast as well... well then you've two level dipped into Warlock....

[LudicSavant]

The real damage comes from synergy. For example, Magic Missile on its own won't do a lot of damage, but it's a wholly different story if you're using it with Hexblade's Curse (+Proficiency to each missile) and Empowered Evocation (+Int to each missile, and yes JC has confirmed that Empowered Evocation applies to each missile).

[Splarticus]

Cone of Cold - Con save but out damages Fireball if saves are equal, and no worries about cover
As mentioned, Con save being lower than Dex for monsters with CR > 2 and size > Small is rarer than I thought. Worse by two or more points for about 5% of the monsters in the monster manual. Probably not worth a spell slot to do a bit more damage in 1 out of 20 fights. Not sure what you mean about cover, since Fireball goes around corners.

Destructive Wave -- can be handy. Most classes don't have access to both Fireball and Destructive Wave (ok, Bards), so not a dilemma.

Insect Plague -- don't understand the appeal of this. It doesn't move, so I find monsters get outside of the area of effect within the first round, so not that much damage. Would require another spell, probably concentration, like Web or Wall of Force to make it work, and that's a high cost.

Chain Lightning -- This is a 6th level spell, so quite rarified territory. Again, it's a corner case. If only one target, Disintegrate will comparable or, if the target has a low Dex save, more damage. If you have more than five creatures you can target, Fireball or Lightning Bolt will do more damage. Yeah, might be worth taking.

If you have Eldritch Blast + Hex, that replaces Magic Missile of course. If you have other abilities that increase Magic Missile damage, that's cool, too. Point was that for the majority of cases, not much spell variety is required to do nearly maximal spell damage.

[Dark Schneider]

I miss:

- Cone of Cold: great damage and very large AoE.
- Otiluke's Freezing Sphere: huge (or insane) AoE. You can create ammunition for your allies so all you attack at the same time on 1st round. Killer spell for surprised foes, 60-foot radius 10d6 x characters in the group.
- Sunbeam: did you noticed that you have one ray per round up to 1 minute? It is like a super-LB with less range (60 is nice enough) and radiant damage. Also blinds.

[LudicSavant]

Basically, with those seven spells, (Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, a low level AoE, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Animate Objects, and Disintegrate) you're set for damaging spells.


Point was that for the majority of cases, not much spell variety is required to do nearly maximal spell damage.

I'm not sure that your data justifies this particular conclusion. The thing is, synergistic abilities and circumstances aren't few and far between in D&D, and often the very points that you leave out of your analysis is the reason for taking those spells in the first place.

For example, according to you for third level spells you only need to worry about Fireball, but not Spirit Guardians, for optimizing your damage. This is not the case, as any veteran Light Cleric will tell you.

Spirit Guardians is a very efficient damage spell. Arguably more efficient than Fireball, because it deals its damage not on one round but every round for 10 minutes (which is easily multiple encounters in a dungeon delving situation). And it's not taking up your action each round, so you're stacking that damage on top of doing something else in the round, which can deal more damage (heck, that action can straight up just be Fireball). And it can potentially do its damage multiple times per round to any given creature.

A Light Cleric that neglects to ever use Spirit Guardians is not doing "nearly maximal spell damage." They should be making use of both Spirit Guardians and Fireball.


at least in the PHB, they don't

You hadn't mentioned that you were only considering the PHB before, so that would rule out candidates like Vitriolic Sphere.


Take Blight. Looks like a good spell, with average spell damage of 8d8 = 36 hp vs. 4th level Fireball at 32 hp. The problem is that Blight is a Con save, which is on average 1 point easier save for monsters, and for monsters with CR over 3, that difference jumps to nearly 3, which erases the extra 3 HP damage from Blight.

I don't think that Blight looks like a good spell, unless I'm specifically planning to fight plants.


Link for your DPR calculator?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Qv3skx5dwgq1piGZq6gzfZb6N6XRj99CEto2MAXrWEk/edit#gid=309497876

Though I'm actually fiddling with an updated version with additional functionality. So stay tuned for that :smallsmile:

[Ivor_The_Mad]

I made a spreadsheet to find the best damage spells for a given spell level against a given monster, taking into account overpowering the spell, monster ACs and saves and resistances.

Here's the sheet: [removed, because I don't have enough posts to include a link]

Blue cells on the Attacker sheet can be changed for different levels, spell levels, or monsters (from the Monster Manual)

Findings:

For straight damage, Dex saves with Fireball are pretty much best choice. It's a big jump over other spells. Back up with Lightning Bolt for Fire Resistant opponents or areas that don't fit a Fireball, and you're set.

Targeting Con saves vs. Dex saves is not worth it. Fireball/Lightning Bolt (F/LB) do enough damage that a Con save spell like Shatter is almost never going to do more damage, even when overpowered to the same spell level. Aside from tiny or small opponents (yeah, I really need a fireball to deal with this pixie), virtually the only worthy opponents that have a significantly lower Con than Dex save are vampires, and even for them, Fireball will do more damage than an overpowered Thunderwave.

Targeting Wis saves with damage spells is difficult, since straight up damage spells targeting Wis are rare. One exception is Phantasmal Killer, but damage is significantly less than F/LB for even for Assassins, whose Wis save is 6 points less than their Dex saves.

Targeting AC, on the other hand, is worth it. Not because monsters have low AC compared to Dex saves, but rather for Magic Resistant monsters like Devils, Slaads, or Golems. Over 10% of the monsters in the Monster Manual have Magic Resistance. Another reason to target AC is to leverage to hit bonuses, like Faerie Fire, Bless, etc.

Magic Missile is solid and scales well. Great for dealing with magic or damage resistant monsters or high AC monsters. A key spell.

Inflict Wounds is a better spell than I realized. Against single targets, it's comparable damage to F/LB.

Animate Objects is awesome. Outstrips other spells by 50% more damage, and it's concentration, so it's a gift that keeps on giving.

So the best straight damage spells are:

Level 1: Magic Missile, Thunderwave or Burning Hands, if you prefer Stealth
L 2: Scorching Ray. Shatter if you still need a AoE.
L 3. Fireball. Lightning Bolt.
L 4. Overpower your Fireball and Lightning Bolt
L 5. Animate Objects.
L 6+: Overpower your Animate Objects or F/LB if you need an AoE.
L 7: Disintegrate, if you need even more damage while concentrating on Animate Objects
L 8+: Animate Objects, and then your next favorite damage spell while concentrating

Basically, with those seven spells, (Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, a low level AoE, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Animate Objects, and Disintegrate) you're set for damaging spells. Use other prepared spells for crowd control or utility.

I would go for Chaos Bolt for a first level spell. It's pretty good It does a total of 2d8 + 1d6 of a semi random damage. Either Acid, cold, fire, force, lightning, poison, psychic, or thunder. Not to mention it has a chance of hitting a second target too. It can jump an unlimited amount of times (it is virtually impossable but still, it works in theory). With this spell I have had it jump a max of 2 times. which is a decent amount of damage for a 1st level spell.

[Splarticus]

Thanks, LudicSavant. I too am a fan of a good spreadsheet. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lc48TObqgiai8kBGDoc5qeRhyLfuu5rw3ePcuc6LJto/edit?usp=sharing

That's a bit rough. I use it to compare builds. Let me know if you have any questions.

[Lunali]

I would go for Chaos Bolt for a first level spell. It's pretty good It does a total of 2d8 + 1d6 of a semi random damage. Either Acid, cold, fire, force, lightning, poison, psychic, or thunder. Not to mention it has a chance of hitting a second target too. It can jump an unlimited amount of times (it is virtually impossable but still, it works in theory). With this spell I have had it jump a max of 2 times. which is a decent amount of damage for a 1st level spell.

Personally prefer Chromatic Orb, 3d8 and can choose the damage type, though you lose the jump and the possibility of doing force or psychic damage. On the upside, losing the jump means it can be twin spelled.