[3.5] Teleportation question

[liquidformat]

So something I have always wondered about but haven't really seen much on is teleporting into areas with people. I know typically with most familiarity levels you are going to be on target or close. However, what happens if where you are trying to go to is a place like a market in a metropolis with hordes of people or even a street in a busy part of a town. You may know the exact spot you wish to teleport but with so many people there your chances of arriving on the spot or close by without it being occupied are very low. Would you simply rule that that location can only be a variant of false destination where you either arrive on target or have a mishap? Or is there some source that goes into how this should be handled?

[Deophaun]

If you have an exact spot picked out and it's occupied, then false destination seems like a reasonable outcome. You're going to either end up in a similar area (nearby), or you've given unreasonable parameters to the spell and suffer something bad. If you want to show up in a crowded market, it's much safer to teleport to "the market," as opposed to a specific location two feet directly in front of that Karrnath fried chimera stand everyone loves.

That guy really needs to think about franchising.

[liquidformat]

I am not sure if saying 'the market' instead of the specific location in the market is getting you anything. Either the spell functions by choosing a specific location even if it is subconscious in which case saying right in front of the store or 'the market' is just semantics. Or you are purposely reducing your level of familiarity. And if it is the second situation you are not over coming the initial issue of statistical chance I happen to teleport to a spot that is already occupied by someone if you are teleporting to a place like a busy street where people are for the most part equally distributed throughout the the street. All you are doing is increasing the chance of a mishap by decreasing your familiarity score. There in lies the problem...

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm...

That's interesting: The base Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm) spell does not mention anything about a full square. The School Description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#conjuration) sort-of does, but that's only when you're bringing things to you, not when you're going there. So...

As far as I can tell, the spell works. However, as you can't end your turn in an occupied square (see here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#movingthroughaSqua re)). Hmm... loosely speaking, Teleport is movement, so perhaps Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#accidentallyEnding MovementinanIllegalSpace) applies? In that case, you end up in the nearest legal space, with no clauses for damage-for-distance that you get with Dimension Door and such (presuming you make your familiarity check, of course).

[Thurbane]

In that case, you end up in the nearest legal space, with no clauses for damage-for-distance that you get with Dimension Door and such (presuming you make your familiarity check, of course).

I think that's how we've always played it...

[Zombimode]

However, as you can't end your turn in an occupied square

... in combat. The rule does not apply outside of combat.

[liquidformat]

Hmm...

That's interesting: The base Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm) spell does not mention anything about a full square. The School Description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#conjuration) sort-of does, but that's only when you're bringing things to you, not when you're going there. So...

As far as I can tell, the spell works. However, as you can't end your turn in an occupied square (see here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#movingthroughaSqua re)). Hmm... loosely speaking, Teleport is movement, so perhaps Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#accidentallyEnding MovementinanIllegalSpace) applies? In that case, you end up in the nearest legal space, with no clauses for damage-for-distance that you get with Dimension Door and such (presuming you make your familiarity check, of course).

guess I am just a sadist I like the idea of splinching to add some danger to teleporting to balance out its potential abuse...

Like the question of in a world with relatively easy access to teleportation why does anyone use mundane forms of transport. New answer because a sap sucker tree can grow four feet in a couple months and I don't like the thought of joining together with one when I teleport to a town a continent away.

[Bronk]

guess I am just a sadist I like the idea of splinching to add some danger to teleporting to balance out its potential abuse...

Like the question of in a world with relatively easy access to teleportation why does anyone use mundane forms of transport. New answer because a sap sucker tree can grow four feet in a couple months and I don't like the thought of joining together with one when I teleport to a town a continent away.

I ran a game where a group teleported in via map reference and a quick scry. I had them come out in the middle of a road, then had them make reflex saves to avoid getting run over by carts and wagons.

[Deophaun]

Either the spell functions by choosing a specific location even if it is subconscious in which case saying right in front of the store or 'the market' is just semantics. Or you are purposely reducing your level of familiarity.
Citation needed. We are talking about magic, here. It can work however it wants to work, and even change how it works because it's Wednesday and it just doesn't like Wednesdays, or because you are wearing that silk robe it likes, or because the sky tastes orange. Either let the spell work and choose a safe spot for you, or be very picky and risk a mishap.

[Segev]

Teleportation, even greater teleport, is alreadly dangerous and unreliable when used carelessly, simply by virtue of all the text in the spell(s) that mention how high energy and other things can interfere. It doesn't need to be made more dangerous for use-as-intended by adventurers teleporting to a well-known market to shop.

I actually think the poster who had players making reflex saves to dodge incoming carts and wagons was being a bit unfair unless his players were particularly inattentive to his description of what they saw when they scried out the target location. "It's full of moving hazards" is the sort of thing scrying is going to reveal.

[Bronk]

Teleportation, even greater teleport, is alreadly dangerous and unreliable when used carelessly, simply by virtue of all the text in the spell(s) that mention how high energy and other things can interfere. It doesn't need to be made more dangerous for use-as-intended by adventurers teleporting to a well-known market to shop.

I actually think the poster who had players making reflex saves to dodge incoming carts and wagons was being a bit unfair unless his players were particularly inattentive to his description of what they saw when they scried out the target location. "It's full of moving hazards" is the sort of thing scrying is going to reveal.

I hear ya! Sometimes though, after describing a busy caravan route, and they specify wanting to go right in that exact spot... It was a 'had warning, did it anyway situation'. But don't worry, everyone jumped out of the way and had a good laugh.

I think that's the difference... it's only safe at the time of casting.

Otherwise, I'd think splinching would be covered by the mishap rules, which only kick in for less familiar or false destinations.

[Jack_Simth]

... in combat. The rule does not apply outside of combat.
Do you have anything closer to a direct rules-as-written answer?
Alternately, I "enter combat" by trying to slap my heavily-armored companion for 1 point of nonlethal damage (with my wizard strength of 6, my half-bab, vs. his full plate...), and then have the safety mechanism that way.

Also: Standard actions are defined the same way. Can you only take them in combat?

[liquidformat]

Citation needed. We are talking about magic, here. It can work however it wants to work, and even change how it works because it's Wednesday and it just doesn't like Wednesdays, or because you are wearing that silk robe it likes, or because the sky tastes orange. Either let the spell work and choose a safe spot for you, or be very picky and risk a mishap.

If that is true then what is the point of having a familiarity designation. magic has rules and they are written inside of the rule books and you can expect to have the same result when casting your spell every time unless the rules say that there are random issues or you are in or trying to get to a place that changes the rules. My point is based on the way memory works the larger area you have to cover the less familiar with it you can possibly be.

For example, Say you are teleporting to your bed in your room, you are very familiar with where it is in the room and what is on it and around it. Now we change to your room, you are still very familiar with it you know where everything is and shouldn't have much of a change. Now we go to your house as a whole, you are familiar with every room though your kids make messes and your wife likes to move stuff around on a whim to lighten the place up a bit. So now there is a slight change in familiarity level based on the chart. Next we go to your entire neighborhood, you have a pretty good idea where your house is and where the houses are around it but only a vague idea of how things are setup in each of your close neighbors house and less idea for those further way. If I am trying to teleport into a random spot inside my neighborhood instead of my own room in my house, I would expect to have a pretty decent change in familiarity level. And that is if it is even possible to choose 'I want to teleport to a random spot inside of my neighborhood' which based on reading the spell I find suspect.

From my reading of the spell I choose a spot to teleport to, in order to be very familiar I need to know exact coordinates of said spot and know what is at the spot and how things are setup around the spot, the less I know about that spot I am trying to get to the less likely I am to get to that spot and more likely I am to have an accident while trying.

Based on that please give me a citation where it says I can choose an entire house much less a block as my target...

[Deophaun]

If that is true then what is the point of having a familiarity designation.
Because you need to have some idea of where you're going. It's like if I tell someone to go to the store, I need to be somewhat familiar with the store I want them to go to (the one on Market Street, not Garden Road), or else they're likely to go to the wrong location.

magic has rules and they are written inside of the rule books and you can expect to have the same result when casting your spell every time unless the rules say that there are random issues or you are in or trying to get to a place that changes the rules.
It does have rules, but they aren't comprehensive rules. Amazingly, the game designers thought the game would be run by an entity with a brain and capable of its own discernment. Shocking concepts, I know.

My point is based on the way memory works the larger area you have to cover the less familiar with it you can possibly be.
How memory works has nothing to do with it.

For example, Say you are teleporting to your bed in your room, you are very familiar with where it is in the room and what is on it and around it. Now we change to your room, you are still very familiar with it you know where everything is and shouldn't have much of a change. Now we go to your house as a whole, you are familiar with every room though your kids make messes and your wife likes to move stuff around on a whim to lighten the place up a bit. So now there is a slight change in familiarity level based on the chart.
Very familiar is "is a place where you have been very often and where you feel at home." Feeling, not memory. You could theoretically have amnesia, but since you've been to that place and feel-on a gut level-that it's home, teleport would treat it as "very familiar" even though you have not the slightest clue what it looks like or where it is.

Next we go to your entire neighborhood, you have a pretty good idea where your house is and where the houses are around it but only a vague idea of how things are setup in each of your close neighbors house and less idea for those further way. If I am trying to teleport into a random spot inside my neighborhood instead of my own room in my house, I would expect to have a pretty decent change in familiarity level.
Have you been to your neighborhood often? Does your neighborhood feel like home? No drop in familiarity from your bedroom, even though you might not know it a hundredth of the detail.

And that is if it is even possible to choose 'I want to teleport to a random spot inside of my neighborhood' which based on reading the spell I find suspect.
You must be reading a different spell, as a random spot within a neighborhood would qualify as "where you want to be" if, in fact, you wanted to be at a random spot within a neighborhood.

From my reading of the spell I choose a spot to teleport to
Quote where you read this, please.

in order to be very familiar I need to know exact coordinates of said spot and know what is at the spot and how things are setup around the spot
Already demonstrated that this is wrong, so I'm not optimistic about getting the above quote.

Based on that please give me a citation where it says I can choose an entire house much less a block as my target...
It says you choose a destination. A destination can be a bed, it can be a house, it can be a block, it can be a city, it can be a country. You are the one who has artificially narrowed the word "destination" to "spot." It is you who needs to provide the citation.

[Psyren]

Why would you teleport into a crowded market? Real adventurers drop into a nearby alley, then get accosted for papers by the first guard who notices their outfits.

[Segev]

Why would you teleport into a crowded market? Real adventurers drop into a nearby alley, then get accosted for papers by the first guard who notices their outfits.

This unusually specific description sounds like it stems from an interesting story. Please do elaborate/share!

[Psyren]

This unusually specific description sounds like it stems from an interesting story. Please do elaborate/share!

Nothing specific, just a trope :smallbiggrin: Adventurers care nothing for your silly borders and regulations!

OotS used it too (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0733.html) (flight rather than teleportation, but same principle.)